Speaker 0 (0s): Always.

Speaker 1 (2s): Okay, there we go. Sorry.

Speaker 0 (4s): I have always said I am not a fit. I am not a physicist. Everything that I know about quantum mechanics, I had to learn on my own. I did not take any courses in it. And it has been, has been a difficult ride, but I'm beginning to understand a little bit about it. It's it really puts everything that we have learned in school in terms of physics and mathematics, sort of a head up, right. It, it converts converts reboots.

It, it just turns upside down everything that we know about physics. For example, the fact that the fact that thoughts seem to be able to travel much faster than the speed of light and according to Einstein and every physicist who has followed him ever since nothing moves faster than the speed of light. But thoughts do thoughts do?

And one of the, you know, one of the interesting things about thoughts is as again, I describe in my book sometimes when you have twins or when you have people who are very close, emotionally tied to each other, suddenly when there is something really, really upsetting when they some kind of a traumatic event or some kind of a crisis, you know, twin Peacher will suddenly feel sick to his stomach and be absolutely, absolutely certain that somehow something is happening to his brother, Joe, and 10 minutes later, Joe's mother calls saying, Joe has been in an accident.

Why does that happen? We, we, nobody, nobody can, can explain that, but certainly quantum mechanics comes closer to it then somebody else, because we know in quantum mechanics that two particles, which at one time we're together, no matter how far apart they are, they are still in contact with each other. And so if you change the location or change the structure in some way of one proton or electron, or one of those subatomic particles, the other one will in Mediafly immediately respond and these experiments have been done, they have been proven to be correct.

And nobody knows yet how to explain it.

Speaker 1 (2m 53s): Yeah. You and your book even talk about, I think it was pond's work where he did it via satellite, like the quantum from a satellite down to earth, he was able to show that. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Speaker 0 (3m 5s): Well, yes. I, I, you know, I'm not, I'm very firm ground on that one, but entanglement is one of those expressions that defines the connection between two particles. That at one time were one, and once you separate them, they are still connected. And, you know, it's, I think, I think that's sort of one of the, one of the pieces of research that seems to indicate to me, you know, that the mind that the mind is much more than material, like the mind has to be energetic.

One of the examples that sort of, sort of, sort of supports that is, are near death experiences, for example. Okay. I have actually, this is God's honest truth. When I was, when I was an intern a thousand years ago, when I was an intern, I was in the room is a patient who suddenly had a heart attack and he died, his, his pulse stopped, his heart had stopped.

He stopped breathing. He was dead. And I had learned by that time that if that happens, you pick up a, you, you pick up some adrenaline, put it into a, Put it right into the heart of the patient. You just plunge it into the heart of the patient. I mean, after all he's dead, right? So it's not going to feel much.

Well, I did that. I did that. And that was before we had these heart thumpers that they have now. So I, I put the adrenaline in, I put it into his heart and he came back, came, came back, he came back, he came back to life. It was the most amazing thing. But what was most amazing was, you know, that then he described to me exactly what had happened in the room.

Like when I called other doctors in nurses, rushed in et cetera, et cetera, he was able to describe that in every detail and he was dead for only. Right. And he described, and then since then I've read many other cases like that, where people describe the happenings in the room as if they were sort of floating above themselves. And so, you know, what do you make of that?

It's it sounds like as if his soul had left him and was still observing what was going on down there, you know, if somebody's going to get me back to life or is this, you know, So I think that, I think that when you look at phenomena like that, and you look at the quantum mechanics and entangled particles and superposition and all those things, when you look at the communication between twins, that would all indicate to me, you know, that the mind is definitely, definitely related to the body that it's definitely connected to the body, but it's also more than that.

It's, it's, it's, it's something spiritual, something energetic and, you know, without getting religious or anything, it just seems to me that, that it's, it's, it's something that in a way can give us hope because although the body may die, whatever constitutes the mind may not. And so the, there is, there is some hope I think, of, of, of some kind of a life continuing after we have lived our life down here on earth one way.

And perhaps we continue in some other way.

Speaker 1 (7m 47s): Absolutely. And I, I just want everybody who's listening to this and Washington has to know that the book is called the embodied mind by Dr. Thomas Verny and do yourself a huge favor and pick it up. It's it is, it's a wonderful, wonderful book. And, you know, at the end, you sum up the book, I feel like you got us, you gave us back this, this idea of, of the embodied mind hypothesis allows for the agency of freewill and empowers each of us to fully live up to our potential by way of self-regulation, rather than the exigencies of an unpredictable environment.

Like that is so beautiful. That's exactly what the book does, ladies and gentlemen, you must get it and read it. It is mind blowing, but yes, I do believe that this particular situation gives us hope for something that comes after. It's almost like you can see in the doorway to me, I'm just curious to get your thoughts on this. Some of these OB OBS out of body experiences or NDEs near death experiences, they seem to me be eerily similar to a really high dose psychedelic experience.

People that have taken a really high dose of psilocybin or Iowasca myself included. I have, I have felt like I have gotten to peer over the edge and look into this out of body realm. And some of these accounts that I read are so similar, what do you have a take on that? As far as the psychedelic experience,

Speaker 0 (9m 21s): Every corner of the world, you know, they are similar, which is your, which is really quite amazing. You know, whether it's from south America, whether it's from Australia, all these experiences are very similar. So conservative, old fashioned scientists, doctors, whatever, they explain it by the fact that there is something in our brain that sort of gives us kind of psychedelic experiences when we are short on oxygen.

And that it's just a sign of, of shortness of breath, shortness of oxygen, too much carbon dioxide, all kinds of chemicals, perhaps get mixed up in the brain. And so you have these visions of course, that, that that's not an explanation. It's not an explanation because why would you have those particular visions? Right, right,

Speaker 1 (10m 18s): Right.

Speaker 0 (10m 19s): You could just as easily be having visions of, I don't know, eating a hamburger Visions of eating a hamburger, even not even a McDonald's hamburger. So, you know, last to be, there has to be a reason for that. And I, I was, I was thinking of also, there is a wonderful, there's a wonderful movie, a documentary it's called octopus.

My teacher It's, it's on YouTube. It's on Netflix. It's, it's highly, highly, highly recommended. It's a wonderful movie. And what it's about is that this Australian man goes diving one day and he comes across an octopus and there's no other way of putting it. They start having a relationship.

Like he, he is so impressed by the octopus, the feelings that he gets from the octopus that he starts going down there every day. And he does that for a year, every day for a year. And what he says and the impact that it had on him is, is really moving it's, it's, it's wonderful. And the reason I'm raising that apart from the fact that it's really well with watching it's because what he discovers is that the relationship between us and other animals is so important.

And yet, you know, I think that the Bible has really done a lot of harm when it says something to the effect of a, you know, on the sixth day, God created man. And then he rested something like that. And he put man in charge of the world or, or to rule all the other beasts. So whatever I think that is toxic.

Okay. I think that that kind of message, that kind of message has separated us from other living beings. And it has separated us from the world. Like we are supposed to rule the world that of nurture it and take care of it. So I think that, you know, and that has been with us, you know, for 2000 years and the harm that it has done is incredible.

And we would not be, you know, polluting the world and we would not be having wars and all that kind of stuff. If we would have perhaps started life of 50,000 years ago, whenever on, on an affirmer a terrain, you know, on a, on a more philosophical, more human Hugh humanitarian level, you know, this is, this is really a kind of a master slave mentality that we have been parroted from the Bible and it has not served as well.

Speaker 1 (13m 54s): Yeah. The introduction of monotheism is a huge problem and people would be well, well, to do, to understand, at least in my opinion, you didn't come into this world. He came out of it. And so you are partners with all the creations you're like, and that's, this brings us back to the embodied mind. And maybe the Hameroff Penrose we were talking about. You can see in plants, you can see in the octopus, you can see the way that a plant grows to a certain height and then bears fruit pointing 30 degrees towards the sun. I get the type of language, you know, the way in which things grow or the way in which we grow, or at least part they're up.

And we can learn so much. And we have cut ourselves off from so much learning because we want it. You could even argue that monotheism or this one, God is where the ego came from. This idea that we have dominion over anything is ridiculous

Speaker 0 (14m 47s): Dominion. Yes, that's right. Yeah. Dominion over everything. Yes. Very wrong, very wrong. And, and also, you know, it, it creates this mindset where one person or one president or one God rules over everybody. Right. You know, that's not democracy, you know, that that's the very opposite of, of democracy. And, you know, here we are always talking about democracy, but we sure don't practice it.

Speaker 1 (15m 25s): Yeah. I'm not sure that we've ever had it. You know,

Speaker 0 (15m 29s): I don't think we ever had it. And I think, you know, once in a while you, you hear a women saying, well, if only women ran the world, I think women ran the world. It would be just as messy as it is now because it's human, It's human nature that needs to change. And of course, you know, that that was an interest of mine for a long time, until I wrote the embedded mind. You know, I was very, very involved in, in, in better parenting and better pregnancies and improving best practices.

And I do believe that if, if a child was spent nine months in the womb of a mother who was living in a healthy fashion and was not exposed to stress or anxieties, or, you know, losses in her life, that child would be born a much more loving person than a child who is carried in the w in, in the womb of a mother of a mother, like now must be happening.

Let's say in Ukraine, who is just constantly exposed to bombings and, and lack of food and danger all the time. I mean that poor child is not going to be normal.

Speaker 1 (16m 53s): Yeah. You know, if, if you look at the earth as a womb and these different children being born from different parts of the womb, it's like, we're just perpetuating these wars. You know, it brings me to the story. You tell, you told a story in your book about going to a nursery where some babies had name tags on their cribs and some didn't. Can you share that story as well?

Speaker 0 (17m 14s): Preps by how much you remember,

Speaker 1 (17m 17s): It's a great book.

Speaker 0 (17m 19s): Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Many, many years ago, I went to, to the nursery newborn nursery at one of the largest children's hospitals in the world in Toronto. And they were about 36 bassinets. And about half of them, I would say about 18 out of 36, about 18 of them had names on them. You know, call me Johnny, call me and come.

But the other half, the 18, the other 18 or 17, whatever post to that did not have any things. And so I said to the head nurse who was showing me around, I said to her, how come, how come those, those kids don't have any names? And she said, well, that's because the errands are afraid that they might give them a name. And then the baby is going to die. And that it's going to hurt a much more than if they just remain nameless.

So I thought to myself, this would be a wonderful research project because I will bet any amount of money, any amount of money that the mortality and morbidity, meaning that the sickness and death of those children without names is much higher, much higher than the children who actually have names. And whose parents come and say, how are you Johnny today? How are you? And whereas there, the nameless ones, the nameless ones are not receiving the vibrations, vibrations, the love, the affection that a name signifies.

I mean, there's such a difference between saying to someone, Hey, you or Jordan, how are you? It's, it's a will of difference. You, you, you feel seen when someone says George, right? Yes. And they know who you are, and that helps you to sort of get to know them. But if you are just a, nobody, as we were talking at the beginning of our interview today, a little bit, if people just look through you as a viewer cellophane, that doesn't create a good relationship.

So I think, you know, in terms of our listeners, you know, what is the practical take on this? The practical take is that you got to establish relationships with people and animals and even objects, even objects. I mean, people have, people have told me that they, they very often called their cars by some name, right? Those cars behave better. You know, like Johnny don't run out of gas yet, go on for another 10 miles.

That's asking for, is that asking too much? So, yeah, I think that relationships are important because of the vibrations that you put out in establishing the relationships and that other people pick up on those vibrations. And which takes me back to the heart. Actually, we have not had chance much to talk about the heart. The heart has the largest Elektra of all the organs in about in our bodies, including the brain.

The heart puts out a much stronger magnet, Magneto, Magneto, electric force than the brain does. So when people, when people say I fell in love, or I liked that person from the beginning, that the reason for that is because they were in sync in terms of their vibrational energy.

When somebody says, I got tells me not to trust that person, but I still did. And boy, am I sorry, always listen to your gut, always listen to your gut. And one of the, I think one of the bad things, for lack of a better term right now, one of the deplorable things that happens in our civilization is that we trust apparatuses the trust objects more than we trust our gut or our heart, our instincts, we have just become so dependent on everything around us, cell phones, for example, you know, people, peop people sit down in restaurants, I'm sure you have seen it.

They take out their cell phones. And instead of talking to each other, they have their emails. Why are you together? I mean, you know, you could do that at home. What do you need? Spend a lot of money in a restaurant and just relate to yourself instead of the other person. So in terms of the heart, I think that the heart really has some very special, special functions in terms of our self, self, good, who we are, what we are, how we relate to people.

I think that's one of the things that I would like people to realize as they read the embodied mind that everything that we have, all our organs are very, very important and becoming aware of them will help those organs serve you better.

Speaker 1 (23m 23s): Yeah. It made me think when, when you told this story and when I read that part in the book, my wife is Laotian and, and they, her, her cousin had passed away about a year ago and they did this really interesting thing when she passed away, the whole family went over and for seven days they got together and they would chant, you know, at the, they would get together a group and then they would chant and kind of pray. And when you think about chanting, I think about breathwork. And when I think about breathwork, I think about synchronizing the heart together and it like, it makes me want to cry.

I get goosebumps just thinking about all the people you love, synchronizing their heartbeat, thinking. Good thoughts of you. Like it's so beautiful. And it it's, it's it's knowledge that people today don't have it. You know, she comes from a different culture where they still embrace this knowledge where maybe in the west, you know, we're on our cell phones, sending emails. I am sorry. They died, but here's this other group of people continuing to link their heartbeat, their thoughts together to heal, not only the person that's leaving, but to maybe heal themselves and whatnot.

It's a beautiful thing.

Speaker 0 (24m 31s): Yeah. It's probably the reason that people still go to church because very often there is, there's a choir. And especially, of course, if you go to black churches, you will get a much more involved audience, a little wrong word, you know? Well, all the, all the parishioners, so the whole gets involved.

And when, when I was in Sarasota, a couple of weeks ago, we went to see a show which was called black Broadway. And it was all about black actors on Broadway and what they produced, the music, the shows, things like that was very, very good. It was excellent. They were only about five or six black people in the audience.

Although black theater was performed by black actors. So I spoke, I, I spoke to some people who are very much involved in Sarasota. And I said, how come, how come that there's so few black people in the audience? And they said, because this is not their culture. They culture focuses on the church where they can chime in so that when, you know, when the clued clergy person says something, they say, ah, man, man, you know, and so then the whole church kind of removed later and see how good that would make the parishioners feel, but feel that they can do that in your regular theater because it's frowned upon.

So they don't come. We have the same, you know, I told you that I, I live here in Stratford. We have the same here, no matter what, how diverse the actors in our shows are. And they are very diverse. We have indigenous and we have black and every other color in the world, actors and actresses. And I'm still very, very few black people come because it's just not part of their culture and that they enjoy and I can blame them for it.

You know, they enjoy the Sunday morning church sermons and, and services because they can participate. Whereas we don't allow our audience to participate Know it's like being in a library or something. Right. You have to be quiet. And, and why should that be? But that's how sort of our theater has developed. And their theater has developed in churches and it's different.

Speaker 1 (27m 49s): Yeah. It's, in some ways it makes me laugh. We trip up on all these different words, like diversity, like what's the difference between diversity and inequality. We should just change the word diversity to unique. And then we get away from all the baggage that comes with that. Like, Hey, let's, let's, let's promote unique ideas instead of like all these charged ideas that there's two different sets of rules, but yeah, it's, it comes back to vibrations too. I think, you know, the, the way you're interacting with people and, you know, you bring up some great ideas about vibrations in the body and the sense of smell later on in the chapter.

Do you remember talking about that?

Speaker 0 (28m 28s): Yes. Yes. There seems to be. Now I, I cannot tell you because there's so much, so much particular knowledge and the reference is there, but I can tell you that it seems that smell seems to the way one can explain our ability to smell can only be done using quantum mechanics of, of formulas and thinking.

And that seems to be another way of supporting quantum biology, quantum physics, but how quantum physics is, can be applied to biology. And I think the old factory system is, is definitely part of that. And I think that as time goes on, we will learn more and more about how our bodies are sort of going back and forth between, you know, quantum biology and irregular sort of old fashioned physical laws, laws of physics, you know, but a lot of our biology goes both ways.

It follows the laws of physics, for example, gravity, right. But then we come to the sense of smell, which seems to be a combination of quantum biology and regular biology, physics, that kind of stuff. So I think, again, that, that is going to be something that will be happening in the future. I think I, I don't know where I've mentioned to you or not. I was, I was being interviewed by a lovely man in California and he said that I meaning I, Thomas learning have a way of going out of, of writing outside the box until the box catches up with,

Speaker 1 (30m 51s): I would agree with a hundred percent. I think you did a tremendous job explaining quantum mechanics in a way that people can understand. It's really, it's a really difficult subject. However, you did a great job streamlining it and laying out the basic foundation for people like me to, you know, begin to maybe get a finger, hold on. What was going on. I wanted to read a one little blurb you had in here about Stewart Allen Kaufman, the emeritus professor of biochemistry at Pennsylvania, and his idea of the poised realm.

And he's, I guess he has actually gotten a patent for this new state of matter. And is that something to the effect of webs of quantum coherence can extend across the large part of a neuron and can remain poised between coherence and decoherence this poise realm is where consciousness reigns, and this brings us into Hameroff and microtubules, and it's such a complex description, but can you maybe just try to hammer it out a little bit more, Maybe just kind of explain it a little bit more about this poised realm between coherence and decoherence.

Speaker 0 (32m 7s): Well It's, I don't know that I can do that because you said it, like, I don't know if I can add anything more to it because that's really all we know at the moment poised, meaning of course, that it's sort of, you know, positioned between two, two ways of, of explaining the, explain the world of, of biology, the way we function and, you know, in terms of Hameroff and Penrose that they, they felt that it was the micro microtubules, which are tiny, tiny, tiny little tubules inside the, the, the, the skeleton.

Is it skeleton? There is a, there is a tiny little structure, ISO skeleton. I think it's called just a second. Let's see. Where do I? Oh yeah. Okay. Just one second. Okay.

Okay. So if I'm looking at a cell, Let me look at it to cell here. Excuse me for one second. Okay. Here we go. Okay. So the microtubules Microfilaments microtubules Cytoskeleton.

Yeah, that's the one. Okay. You know, there are, there are series seven, the immunity of organ systems within the cell, and these are called organelles and they kind of represent similar physiologic processes that our lungs or our gut or our brains, so to speak thus for our bodies. So these 37 tiny little they're called organelles because they are small Oregon's organelles.

And one of these organelles is the cytoskeleton, and that is a cellular scaffolding or skeleton contained within the cell cytoplasm. And inside that cytoskeleton, add the microtubules and Hameroff and Penrose both believe that it is in those little micro micro tubes that consciousness resides.

I don't, I don't know about that. I don't know about that. I don't know, in which part of the nucleus consciousness resides, I can many places where memories reside in the nucleus, obviously in the, in the nucleus of a cell there's DNA and RNA. And there is the memory for a whole body is contained in that. But then we also have the cellular membrane, which acts very much also like a microchip. And so that probably contains a lot of memory.

And then we have inside within the cytoplasm, we have the microtubules and they may contain memories also. So the cell one cell can contain memories in different places, and it will probably contain different memories in different places, but coming back to Hameroff and Penrose and consciousness, I don't think anybody at the moment can prove that consciousness is in any one particular place because you can't see it.

Right. Right. And you, you can't do experiments on one cell to see whether it contains consciousness or not. You know, it just for our listeners, you know, I want to point out that the cells in our bodies are incredibly, incredibly small. It takes 10,000 average cells, 10,000 cells to put on the head of a pin pin.

You can put 10,000 cells on the head of a pen. That's how small they are. Okay. Are incredibly, incredibly, incredibly small. And yet, and yet, and this is, this is the surprise of the century sort of in this incredibly small space. There are, there's lots of stuff. You know, I just described to you, the nucleus inside the nucleus is DNA and RNA.

If you took the DNA and unspool that, because it's, it's kind of all wound up. If you unspool it, it would measure two meters, two meters imagine. And all of that is so cleverly put, put, put away. So cleverly, not it up that it's inside the nucleus of the cell, which you cannot even see with the naked eye and inside of inside of that cell, there are these 37 organelles that I described.

And in addition to that, in addition to that, there is also something, let me just see how many, 12,012,000 proteins, 12,000 different proteins are packed into that tiny cell. So, you know, I often try to explain this by asking people to imagine that, you know, you are standing somewhere far, far away from the earth and some galaxy far away, and you look towards the earth and you see this tiny, tiny speck of what seems to be like dust far, far away.

It is impossible for you standing so many millions of miles away to conceive that underst tiny speck, there are actually intelligent people walking around and doing things it's impossible. You know, if you were to say that to one of your fellows at that faraway galaxy, they would laugh you out of the country, but we know it's true. Right? So a lot depends on, on your viewpoint, you know, where you are, how you are looking at things.

And one of the, one of the things that I try to do in the embodied mind is to, is to perhaps try to suggest that the way we look at things should be changed, okay. That we need to be more open-minded. And also to trust the evidence. We, we know that for example, you know, people can be hypnotized.

Yeah. We know that people can perceive messages from far away, particularly if they are from someone who is very much connected to them, we know so much, but we don't kind of put it together and draw the conclusions from it. And so, you know, the conclusion is that our minds are incredibly powerful, but they are not a product of the brain alone.

Yes. The brain contributes, but so does the heart. So there's the liver, the kidney, every other cell, you know, bodies. It is, you know, it is like a large orchestra playing and each member of the orchestra has a different instrument, but they're all, when you're sitting like 50 feet away, it all comes out as one wonderful sound. Although it is country, it is made up perhaps of 120 different sounds.

But it comes to you in as, as, as a unit. And that's how, that's how memories come to us. Okay. I suddenly remember, you know, my trip to China. And so suddenly I will start getting pictures of my trip to China, but that, that picture has been contributed by thousands and millions of cells in my body.

Speaker 1 (41m 43s): Yeah. Did you coin the term sympathetic communication and, and that, and that, would you say that what you've just described with the analogy of the orchestra is in fact, a type of sin, sympathetic communication.

Speaker 0 (41m 59s): Yes. Yes. Yes. I would. I would, I, I used sympathetic communication in order to get away from para psychology, which sort of has, but yes, I think that it's important, you know, for everybody to realize that this emphasis that we have placed on the head and the brain is misplaced.

I'm not saying that the head and the brain are not important. I'm not saying that at all. But what I'm also saying is that there is a lot of body underneath, Which should not be disregarded. Okay. I mean, we, we act as if you really didn't have bodies and again, you know, the church may have had something to do with that. Okay. Because they such an emphasis, the spirit and such a, to say the least that feeling of ambivalence towards the lower parts of the body, particularly the sexual organs.

Right. Because that, that, that produces sin very often. So it's better not to talk about that and it's better not to think about it. And then of course, you know, we have, we have all these priests and nuns, but in, in the, in the Catholic religion, which, which, what's the word when you don't have sex, What's the harm, is he?

Yeah. So, you know, this, this dedication to celibacy then has so often, you know, led to sexual abuse of children, You know, all over the world, you know, and it's just unnatural. It is just not natural. You know, God gave you every organ in your body so that you should use it, not abuse it. And so, you know, if God didn't want you to have a penis or a vagina, et cetera, he would not have given it to you.

So even if you believe, even if you are a believer in God, it doesn't make sense to somehow bring in a law, which says, well, those people who serve God, they should be celebrated because we know where that goes. You know, the sexual energy is still there, whether you are a nun or a priest and you got to do something with it. And if you can use it in a normal way, then you will find an abnormal way of using it and create a great deal of, of pain.

As, as I don't know whether the reports have reached you in Hawaii or not, but you know, in, in, in Canada, you know, we had, we had these schools for indigenous children everywhere. Every one of those schools, they're there. Now they're finding burial sites and people are coming out of the, WoodWick talking about the abuse that they suffered was physical and social, psychological, and sexual.

And, and it just makes sense. It just makes sense because, because those nuns and those priests need to find an outlet for their sexual desires.

Speaker 1 (45m 58s): Yeah. There's some really dark stuff that happened there,

Speaker 0 (46m 1s): Very dark stuff. And the way, you know, we got into that, it was because telling you about this difference, you know, up here head is good. Yeah. Elvis no, no, no. So naturally, you know, again, our culture, you know, the Judi duty or Christian culture has not done us a favor in terms of, of enjoying and valuing our bodies.

It's only the head that's valued.

Speaker 1 (46m 37s): Yeah. It, you know, I just had a thought when we, when we talk about memories, you had mentioned, you know, theoretically about remembering a trip to China and from classical classical ideas about memory, they say that memories are reconstructed every time. So they're a little bit different. How, how is it, how does the embodied mind work on reconstructed memories?

Speaker 0 (47m 9s): It's a very interesting question. Very interesting. I had another interesting question yesterday. I'll tell you about that in a second. Well, I think that because every cell in our bodies, 86 billion cells approximately contribute to whatever comes out of my mouth or whatever I'm thinking.

There is probably room for distortion because like, you know, there are so many players. So I think one has to be very careful in terms of trusting memories. And there has been a lot of research done on, on how, you know, memories can be changed over time.

Speaker 1 (48m 16s): No, it seems, I'm sorry. I apologize for interruption. I just, it seems to me that, and I just had this thought, you know, as cells die rather rapidly, maybe they pass their information to the next cell, the same way that we would pass on our information to our child. Maybe it's sort of a fractal sort of a thing going on there. Maybe one is a direct reflection of the other.

Speaker 0 (48m 41s): Yeah. And in the process, of course, just like, just like you said, we pass on inflammation every time you pass on information, you know, it's like one of those broken telephones that Every time you pass it on, perhaps one of the words is distorted or a couple of things I left out. And so by the time it reaches the 10 skid in, in, in, in, in the ring, it's like a totally different message.

Right. But that's a good laugh. So probably the same thing happens here. And of course, every moment that you live, new information is coming in and that new information is coloring. The old information. There is a very, very interesting book by a, an Italian psycho analyst and pediatrician his wonderful book by, like I said, an Italian psychoanalyst and pediatrician who would interview mothers and the father during, during their pregnancy.

So during the nine months leading up to birth, she would interview a couple and she would have, and she would also take ultrasounds of the babies. And there was one particular woman who had twins and when they were being watched every month, she did an ultrasound. And when she watched the children, well, you know, the unborn children and what they would do in the womb as they were in the seventh or eight months, that there was a membrane there between the two of them in the womb.

And the little boy would stretch out his hand towards the membrane. And then the little girl, his sister twin would stretch out her arm and the two of them would touch and they would stroke each other, say that in the room, when she visited this woman, after she had her children, when they were, when they were about six months old, their favorite game was to hide behind the curtain.

And the little girl would sort of sit there and then the little boy would put his hands up against the curtain. And then she would put up her hand against the curtain and they actually what they were doing in the room.

Speaker 1 (51m 32s): Wow.

Speaker 0 (51m 34s): Continue it for a while. But then as she continued to watch them three, four years later, that had totally disappeared. And when she asked them sort of about it in an indirect way, not, not in a leading way, you know, they had no memory of it anymore. And the memory that they had was distorted, yes. Sometimes we would play with each other. How would you play?

Sometimes I will put my head against his hand. So the whole thing there was still, there was still some, there was still some truth in what they said, but it was like totally distorted. And some kids distorted the more than others, depending on whether they had a pleasant or unpleasant experience in the room. So what I'm saying is the same thing happens with adults. Of course, there is new information coming in and the new inflammation sometimes supports the old one.

Okay. When, when your parents will say, do you remember when you were two years old and we took you to visit your grandmother, et cetera. So if you hear that, you know, every couple of months for the rest of your life, you will remember it, but if you don't, it will disappear. So relying on memories is really dangerous because they may or may not be accurate.

The other thing that I was asked yesterday that I thought was a very interesting question that I really need to look into. How, how do I feel? I was asked about people who are brain-dead so you can the problem, because I'm saying that the brain is just, you know, one place from where we get consciousness, the brain is only one place from where we get memories will, the rest of the body is important.

So what happens when the brain is dead? How, how much of a person I was still dealing with. And I, I don't have the answer at the moment. I, I, I hope to look into research and see whether people have done some research on brain, dead people. I, I do know that sometimes when people appear to be just in a vegetative state, right.

They still, they, they still record what is being said, and they can still react to it. Like, if you say, you know, your son just died or something like that, they will have a reaction. And everybody who deals with so-called vegetative states, which is like, brain-dead will tell you that you should read and talk to the people. And then sometimes they come back.

So would be, you know, and another, another piece of evidence for what I'm saying is that, you know, as long as the body is there, you have a backup system you're not totally lost.

Speaker 1 (55m 1s): Yeah. That, that is an interesting question.

Speaker 0 (55m 4s): Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So perhaps six months from now, when we talk, we can discuss that.

Speaker 1 (55m 12s): Yes, absolutely. Doctor, is there anything else you want to leave the audience with?

Speaker 0 (55m 19s): Okay, let me think. Yes. Thank you for the question. Yeah. I think that the important thing to realize is that your mind, and this is not just the brain mind, as, as I said before, this is the embodied mind, the big mind. So to speak mind is incredibly powerful and you really can heal yourself.

You can, you can accomplish huge amounts of things for yourself and others. If you begin to use your mind for that purpose. In other words, for healing and for being like total human being who wants to relate and be kind and loving to others, I think that today more than ever, it is so important to reach out to fellow human beings and to fellow animals all the way down to the simplest animals in the world, in unicellular, animals, octopuses, and, and other, you know, sponges and all kinds of very, very simple animals that they are alive, just like you are.

And they deserve respect and kindness. And the Mo the kinder you are to your fellow animals in the world by this, I mean, humans also the better the world is going to become. We have to get rid of this toxic kind of violence that is just rising all around us. And we must not get to, we must not lose our optimism because we have, we have come across, we have survived more difficult times in the past.

We have survived them and we shall survive this, but we have to pull together and remember our essential humanness.

Speaker 1 (57m 52s): Wow. That, that was really well said. And I just I've said a couple of times, but to all the listeners, the book is called the embodied mind. Dr. Thomas, Bernie it's, every chapter is its own little book. And it's got a beautiful introduction backed up by facts and tons of footnotes and summaries. At the end, you will learn so much. And I think it made me a better person. So you should all go buy this book is awesome and you'll really, really enjoy it. Dr. Tom is running.

I really enjoy talking to you in six months. I'm going to take you up and we're going to figure out some more stuff. And I hope you have a tremendous day. And if I can ever do anything for you or you need anything, please reach out and thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 0 (58m 37s): Yeah. I very much appreciate it. And very much enjoyed speaking with you. You are a wonderful, interesting person and it's too bad. We don't live on the same island.

Speaker 1 (58m 50s): Well, Hey, if I come out that way, I'll look you up. And if you come out here, you look me up for sure. I'm on, I'm in a wahoo.

Speaker 0 (58m 58s): Wow. Okay. Okay. I will keep that in mind.

Speaker 1 (59m 1s): Now you have a reason to come out here.

Speaker 0 (59m 4s): Take care, George.

Speaker 1 (59m 5s): Thank you so much.