Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope you're in the mood for... Becoming a better version of yourself. I hope the sun is shining, the birds are singing, the wind is at your back. I've got an incredible guest for you today, the one and only Lisa Richard. And I want to welcome everyone to our Journey to Bloom. Today we're honored to have Lisa Richard, the driving force behind this transformative endeavor, joining us. Inspired by her two boys and her resilient great aunt Mildred Bloom. Lisa embarked on a journey that transcends mere existence. It's about growth, resilience and infinite love. From seeds of concern to the flourishing blooms of progress, Lisa's story is a testament to the power of patience, caring and love in nurturing neurodiverse learners. As a mom of two neurodiverse sons, Lisa intimately understands the challenges, frustrations and uncertainties faced by families navigating similar paths. Her journey, rooted in her experience as a former elite gymnast and fueled by unwavering determination, offers insights and hope to those treading similar paths. Joining us is Lisa, as she shares her wisdom, compassion, and unwavering commitment to creating a world where every individual can bloom and thrive. Lisa, thank you for being here today. How are you? I am good, and thank you. Wow, I think you made those words sound... much more harmonious than I recall writing about them both online and on my website. I was reading it earlier and I thought, my goodness, and you used my words, but it's the way you brought them together. I was like, wow, that's kind of inspiring. So I'm good. I'm happy to be here. I know that we kind of chatted online and you asked if I was willing to come on and have more conversation. And I said, yes, and I'm super excited. Yeah, I'm stoked you're here. I love the idea of neurodiversity, and I love the idea of breaking conditioning. Before we got warmed up, we were warming up a little bit, and there's something you said that really struck a chord with me, and that is this idea that you're not only willing to, but you're helping people stand up for what they believe in, even if they don't know it yet. And I was wondering if maybe we could just start there. You could kind of unpack that a little bit and, and, and give the audience like, what does that mean? And why do you do it? And why is it important? Wow. Okay. You said a lot. So hang on. Yeah. Take your time. Yeah. And I will say, let me start with this. So I'm not a virgin and I, very late diagnose of adhd however knew there was always different things happening and my oldest son will say mom you're like textbook like come on you knew it you didn't need to go get that diagnosis right but there's something to be said of having that information to understand um the reason I say that is when you were talking one of the things I learned late in life was if I didn't write it down I didn't retain it And throughout my life, I noticed that I would write everything down and then I would be in class and then I would write the notes down and then I would have to go and rewrite them on note cards. And then when I was traveling a lot as an athlete, I missed a lot of school. Like, for example, my sophomore year in high school, I missed 30 days between September and December because I was traveling overseas for the US. Then we had invitationals that happened to be in the West Coast and I was on the East Coast. And so without like writing things down and looking back on them, I couldn't retain them. So when you said, even if I don't know it yet, or even if they don't know it yet, those are examples of things I didn't realize yet at the time. And over the years, people would say, well, why are you writing things down? That's disrespectful or not paying attention because you're writing it down. And I got to the point in life that I just stopped doing these things. And then I couldn't remember stuff. And then people would say, well, I just told you that, or that doesn't make sense. And I just kept being squished less and less and less and less than. And so it's important to me to help others understand the journey I went through personally, professionally, as an athlete and as a parent, so that even if they don't know it yet, that it could help them or help someone they know at some point in time. And with my kids, I was saying to you, it's so important that I do this because I was 48 before I really recognized all of it, went into burnout. Couldn't get up off the couch. Like it got really, really bad. And as I unpacked all of my years of existence, if you will, and leaned into things, I recognized how much I was instilling those things in my kids. They're now 13 and 17 that I wish would have been instilled in me about being courageous, living your truth, living your authentic life, no matter if somebody understands it or not. if it feels good to you and it feels right to you in your gut, trust that inner voice and help to educate others so they can come along for the ride with you instead of fight against you and make you feel like you aren't somebody that you are and essentially lose your sense of self, which is what happened to me over the years. Thank you. I think you're preaching to the choir here. And I think that Was there something in particular that really made you – was it the time on the couch? Was it the repetitive cycle of inner talk about there's something wrong with me? Was there something that was the straw that broke the camel's back that was like, you know what? I don't care anymore. I'm going to do this so that my kids don't have to. What was it that finally broke through and was like, okay, this is me. I'm doing it. It was not a thing. It was a massive, how much time do we have here, right? It was a compilation of so many things. You know, going through the years, feeling different but not understanding why you're different, thinking back on different stories that really kind of make sense to me now, but didn't make sense to me then. Like, you know, putting those pieces together. So I could go into lots of different, you know, lots of different stories from that perspective. But where I'm going to try to focus in on is you asked me about the couch. So that was not what broke the camel's back. It was what allowed me to start unpacking everything that it had led to doing that now I have a heightened sensory system I'm very self-aware of my everything like anybody I've ever worked with whether cranial acupuncture reiki massage therapists are like oh my gosh like you are so in tune with you touch me here I feel it on my foot they're like wow your body is just really connected which is good and great and awful all at the same time. So there were always these things innately that were happening, but I didn't know what to do with them. And when I went into burnout, it was on the heels of my second COVID shot. And I had a really bad reaction. And then my vestibular system went on overload, my nervous system, my craniosacral therapist was like, oh, my gosh. Like, I've been working with you for 10 years. I've never seen this. Your whole body, your rhythm feels off. Like, my sacral rhythm, everything felt off. I'm not a therapist. Like, I'm always going to mess up the right phrases. But everything about... my grounded centerness of the cranial sacral work that I'd done, it was like out of whack. It was like a machine that had malfunctioned is the best way for me to describe it. You know, it's like Rosie on the Jetsons when she starts, you know, like losing her place in time. That's kind of now, that's what pops into my head. So with all of these different things and over the years being gaslit, toxic work environments, being told, being hired to do one thing and then a year and a half in, or sometimes even sooner than that, being told I didn't know what I was talking about. But because my self-esteem was going lower and lower, eventually I just lost my sense of self and worth. And my anxiety was really high and I was dealing with the symptoms, but not the triggers that caused me to be feeling that way. So fast forward while COVID and everything that happened with it for me was awful. It was really a wake up call and almost a blessing in disguise because it was like for like two years prior, I was thinking, I was looking for a rubber band. I was, I kept saying, I feel like I'm a rubber band. That's like framing and coming apart and coming apart and nothing was working. And then that was that shot, the way my body reacted to it was the straw that broke the camel's back, if you will. Like it literally just put me on my rear. I couldn't get up and take my kids to school. I couldn't get up and make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for them. Like I would, I was so shaky and I couldn't function. And it was really, really bad that I had to ask for help. And I was the one that was the fixer and the doer and the people pleaser and in survival mode all the way back to childhood where I was the one that when my brother would blow up with an explosion, I was the one to go in and calm him down and make sure he was okay to go have dinner or whatever. So I was that person, right or wrong, that was put in that place. And so that was the mood that I got into. And I was in that mood. from very early on, five years, pretty much five years old on. And so all of this stacking up and being in survival mode, that's what I knew. I knew how to survive. My defense mechanisms and lots of things happening. But it's so important to recognize that it's not one thing that typically gets you there, but there is one thing that can keep you there. if I didn't ask for help, my husband and my best friend of 40 some years, they were like, Oh my God, we don't know. We don't know what's going on. My doctor thought I was having heart problems because she hadn't seen me. And then she wanted me to go see a psychiatrist. Like people don't get what happens and don't know how to deal with it. They don't know what to do to support you. And so the, um, The heart doctor was like, you're fine. Your heart's fine. I don't know what she was seeing on the EKG. Like your heart's fine. And he's like, it has to be from your reaction to the shot because nothing else was making sense to him. I even had like a heart monitor. We did all these different things. Fast forward, I got the right talk therapist to help me unpack all the layers that led to the burnout. I had started my business initially Bloom's Special Education Advocacy in 2018. And so that's what got me to start doing this because I had a principal who said, Lisa, you've been doing this for all these years for your kids. And for yourself, not even realizing it, I had been blogging for 10 years at that time. I don't do it much anymore, but I was doing it when it wasn't cool. It was blogger. Like that was like the way old. And he's like, you have to give back because you do things on behalf of the person you're working with in collaboration with us as a school, but for the child. And so that was the beginnings of blogging. this journey and founding my business. But in the middle of COVID, in the midst of the burnout and the self-revelations, I recognized that it wasn't just the parents and kids I should be helping. I needed to help the individual professionals and I needed to help the organizations because I've been on all three sides of it. And so that led me to rebrand to Journey to Bloom and to start to wrap my arms around Trusting myself. I chose courage as my word of the year in 2022. I've brought it through to 23 and to 24. And I've expanded on it with lived experience, with authentic self at the core of it. And tying in that intersection, right, of neurodivergent and neurotypical thinking. I love it. It's such a great story. And I think that coming out and talking about it gives other people the courage to start maybe questioning what's going on in their life. Questions. I've often... found the question mark to look eerily like a scythe and this is they have the same function at times in that they cut down the things around you right if you can ask the right question it just cuts down like all the dead grass and everything around you and allows you to have a clean field in which you can start walking down on it's Do you think that there's always been such a large group of neurodivergent people? Or do you think that maybe it's something that is beginning to be an evolution on some level? It seems that we've been so constrained in our thinking. Like we have been so conditioned to think if A, then B. If B, then C. Like we've just been walked down this primrose path of linearity. What are your thoughts on that? This is such a great conversation. We might have to have another one of these. Of course. So, well, first you said cut down, right, and clean field. And I think it's really all about the messy middle. It's not about cutting something down and clearing the path. It's about on becoming all the things that you are told you are meant to be and how you are meant to do them. So you can step into being who you're truly meant to be and helping others become what they're truly meant to be. And I think it all does come back to the whole societal conditions that you were just describing and the linearity of it. So when I think about I mean, let's go. We can go real basic. Yeah. Everyone had to wear a suit to work every day. Who said that you have to wear a suit with a white shirt that's been fully pressed in a jacket and a skirt you can't move in and stockings that are not comfortable and high heels that don't feel comfortable. A tie. You know, I mean, some people love to wear. Listen, I'm not here to judge anyone. I love that if you choose to wear that, that's great. But why do I have to wear it if it feels completely constraining and uncomfortable? Because somebody in society said it was so. And so in short, to answer that question, I think that the field has been vast and varied forever. Yeah. people didn't have the courage to put the moose on the table and have the conversation, right? Like, so Dr. Janice Campbell, who I talk with, and she's part of the Octopus Movement, she talks about naming and taming the elephant. And she and I had this really fun conversation the one day about it. Because I have my elephant down there too. Elephant's important, but the moose is the one that owns the room. However, if the elephant isn't named and tamed, like she talks about, You can never truly put the moose on the table and have the tough conversation that moves you through to a better place. What happens with the elephant in the room is what's happened over society year after year after year. You name it, you tame it, you toss it aside, but nothing changes. It's only when you put the moose on the table and you have a collaborative and connected curious conversation that things actually begin to change. I feel like the last couple of years, in part because of COVID, coming back to a positive way, people are showing up and saying enough. Mental health is important. I have these differences. I act differently. I look differently. I think differently. It doesn't mean I'm wrong. It just means I'm different. You can either come with me or you can get out of my way. So I'm chopping down the trees while I'm walking through the forest. Yeah. I love it. I couldn't agree more. I, I'm hopeful that more people see COVID as sort of the alarm clock that woke them up from this slumber of conditioning. Like we, we just were on the wrong path. And, and I think that's where we are now. It's interesting to, to see so many people and maybe it's the circle of people that we are kind of spending our time in with the octopus movement or nonlinear thinkers or neurodivergence. It's, it's, it's so glorious to see how good you can feel if you're willing to believe in yourself and have faith in yourself on some level. And I think that that's been stripped out of people with this suits and ties and, you know, this Prussian model of school where you sit in front of an authoritarian figure who may or may not have any actual lived experience in the field they're teaching. It's so crazy, right? And, and, And trying to unteach the basics of math with Common Core and stop doing vocabulary and writing cursive. I mean, the things that have worked forever are the things they got rid of and the things that have never really worked that are systemic issues are the ones that are being kept, which blows my mind. we keep trying to fit a square peg in around a hole in our education system. And it's not just here in the States. Cause I'm part of an advisory board for parents Alliance. It's an international organization and it's, all about not giving the supports and resources and there's a lot more to it. But my point is it's international, right? I mean, Kerry's over in the Netherlands, like, you know, the conversations I have, interestingly, the majority of the people I first started connecting with when I rebranded to neurodiversity consultant from special education advocate and people started leaning in going, what does that mean? People still don't understand it in the States. We're from the UK or Australia. They don't have the diagnoses, but that force them to create the interventions and wrap their arms around people to move them forward in understanding how to engage and support different types of learners. In the States, we've got all the diagnoses and then they get labeled and we still don't have the appropriate supports and interventions in place consistently with fidelity across all platforms. Why do you think that is? What's going on there? I believe that time, money, and consistency are some of the things that we're lacking. And amount of staff necessary to truly create the change. But what people don't really understand is if we took a step back and we made the investment up front, we wouldn't need to keep making these same mistakes over and over and expecting a different result. Or doing it in piecemeal. So doing, for example, like doing social emotional learning and social skills without threading in executive functioning. That's like my latest in the schools. Because when you get to like a high school, if they haven't figured out the executive functioning and the social skills in a generalized setting, they're not going to be able to figure out how to leverage it and utilize it, not only in high school and college, but in the working world. So that's where that other side of my world comes in when I'm working with people trying to help adults understand that. and trying to help organizations understand that. These kids grow up to be young adults, grow up to be professionals, and this stuff doesn't go away. So like full circle back to what you were asking, I think this has been here for many, many, many years. We just constantly put people in these buckets. Like I know when I was growing up, you're either a problem child, a behavioral child, had a learning disability, or you were the word I won't even use anymore. Hmm. because I don't think it's appropriate. But if somebody is a nonverbal autistic or Down syndrome, there was a word that was used in the confined classrooms. And you put them in a box, and that's it. And that's not OK. But that's what we did. You had a behavioral issue, and you went to an institution that was supposed to help teach you more appropriate, but it actually confined you and caused more trauma. And I've been watching some documentaries on that. I just finished one. I can't remember the name of it, where a girl went through this whole thing. It was exposing all of this stuff that's happening in the world. And my husband's like, how did the parents not even know about it? Right. So it's like the wrong people are in the positions of power. I think that's what it comes down to. The wrong people are in the positions of power. I like that, yeah. That is without a doubt, whether by apathy or ignorance, the wrong people are in positions of authority. Can you give me an example of the problem with executive function and social learning? Yeah, so if you think about being able to... understand and deal with situations in a generalized way. So I'll give you like a really simple one. If you think about time. So if you have somebody that has a hard time getting started with tasks, and then they have a project in front of them, And then they have to break that project out into parts to be able to meet a deadline. They might be able to do it in that small little pocket for reward. If they have to then break out those goals into those micro goals to finish that project completely, yet they can't get started, how are they ever going to move through it and get to that end? Just because one person wants an outline first, then move through the middle, to then have the finished product, it doesn't mean it's wrong if you start with the messy middle. And that's a personal example. When I would create decks in corporate, people would go, well, where's the outline? I'm like, I don't have it yet. What do you mean you don't have the outline? That's the easiest thing to do. Yeah. Actually, for me, it's the hardest. I have to back into an outline. And so there's a perfect example of society says, do it this way. And I say, do it that way. And then they say, that's crazy. And then I get made to feel like I don't know what I'm talking about. So it's those sort of things that are a problem. But from an executive functioning standpoint from time, if someone doesn't have a sense of time their anxiety might go up and they might be afraid to even get started when if they just leaned in and realized that it's only gonna take five minutes to get the project done. And I know that's a very typical thing for those of us that have ADHD, like getting started with a project is really difficult, but then once you're in it and you're focused, it's like, okay, I'll get it done. Yeah. Wow. That was easy. And we talk about it being procrastination. We talk about it being like, I don't want to do it, but sometimes it's just, it's such a heavy lift to get started. Yeah. And so when I taught myself to start from the middle, it made it a lot easier. But if people don't learn those tools of how to move through things that works for their way of learning, then you just keep getting stuck. And so you can't generalize it into another person's way of learning if you can't even figure out how to do it for yourself. I'm painting my house. And I had some friends come over. And I was just getting started. And they're like, George, what the heck are you doing? I'm like, I'm going to paint all the doors first. And he just looked at me like, dude, that's the... No, George, do not do that. And I'm like, I have to. Like, I have to start with the doors first. I got to take them all off the hinges, paint them first. My friend's just like... You know, it's so interesting to hear you explain it that way because the messy middle for me is sometimes the only way I can get started. I can't see it from any other way. It's like, this has to be done first. Why? Well, there's a lot of reasons why. And if I start telling you about them, you're not going to understand them. Just trust me, I have to start with this. And a lot of times when you're working with people that may not have, that may not be neurodivergent in any sort of way, they just look at you like you're this weird freak. Like, What are you talking about? You can't do that. And then sometimes it'll stop right there. You have to have this huge argument, especially if you work for an organization. It's like a multinational corporation or it's very structured. They usually have a managerial class that has learned a certain method that everyone must follow. Otherwise, it's a problem. And they're getting rid of some of their best problem solvers. I see it happening all the time with people we talk to. Some of the most innovative, curious people. exceptional, wonderful, creative people are being pushed out of the very places that need them the most because they don't adhere to the strict regimen. It's, there's no wonder why so many things are crashing down. It's crazy to think about. But it's so true. It's really, it's, it's, I don't need, I just like, and then it becomes those that don't get you. decide to fight you, like you were saying, and then they might have a stronger personality or, you know, think that they're right, even though they're not. And you being an empath, at least me being an empath and taking things very personally and overanalyzing everything, then that's where I began to lose my sense of self. So yeah. when we bring it back to the one of the things you had asked earlier, right? It's like my why it's so important to share this with others is had I not lost my sense of self 30 years ago, And some of it was I got injured as a gymnast, and I didn't know what I wanted to do through college. And then my parents didn't understand me. I wanted to leave college. And they were like, but why? I'm like, I can't explain it. I don't feel comfortable here. The people I don't click with, I don't get it. I just can't explain it. And they were like, well, if you can't explain it, then you can't go anywhere. Well, that didn't help. But we ended up staying there for four years. And then we had a, like, honestly, my parents are listening. They know. We did not have the best relationship for many, many, many years. It's only been in the last couple of years since I have truly connected to my true self and allowed myself to become my full authentic self. And I'm doing podcasts and sharing and engaging with people like you that get me and that see me. And even if you don't get me, you're curious about who I am, that I now can speak about all of these things. And had I not been pushed aside and made to feel less than for so many years, and I believe unintentionally in a lot of ways, because society told us to, right? So people just listened. Who knows where I would be today? And that's like, I look back, sometimes I go, oh my God, I lost 30 years. And then I think, No, I'm 30 years wiser and now I get to help my kids and others learn from that much sooner. And I want to read something to you if I can. Please, please. Give me one second. So. I was in a session with an organization where we're just lifting it up off the ground soon. It's supposed to go live hopefully next month. And we all have different backgrounds. And I'm going to put a shout out here. It's Achieve Quality of Life. And Terry, who's the founder, has asked me to really lean in and be part of her leadership. And I get to be myself through and through, which I love. What's interesting is we were in a call today, and the person I was talking to, there were four of us, and I had very strong opinions of a couple of things because of my lived experience and because of other organizations that I've tried to help lift up and or that I've been brought into and I've seen fall apart because they weren't listening to me when my ideas I knew were spot on. and or they just kept changing their minds and listening to others and so I don't lean in and share my opinion very often I only do it when I believe that it really has an intentional impact on somebody else I sit back and listen to understand very intently and then I'll share and one of my um somebody I do adult coaching with like client coaching for career transformation in organizations, he said, you've got this innate ability to find the unknown unknowns and bring them to life and help me see where I'm supposed to be going, even if I don't see it yet. And I feel like that's really one of my zones of genius. And he brought that to my light. But the thing I wanted to read to you was I sent a note to somebody and I said, it's an interesting conversation. And they said, yes, I love your strength. I tend to be so timid. And my response back to that person was, it took me 45 years of having my voice silenced to get here, but I no longer hold back. And they said, I love that. And I really appreciate you for that. And that's why I do this. That's why I do what I do. That's why I come on and I have these conversations because if I gave her a little bit more strength, to have courage to share when she is feeling a certain way. Because to me, if someone else is thinking it, if you're thinking it, that means someone else is thinking it too. And it's the person who has the courage to put the moose on the table that gets the conversation going. It doesn't have to be that we agree with everything, but we really should try to appreciate and understand each other's perspectives because that's how we're all going to grow together. I love it. It's contagious in a way. And often we think of a cold or a disease or dis-ease being contagious, but so too is wellness and communication. And when you're doing things, whether it is having the courage to speak up in the face of authority, that too is contagious. That too is a form of language that speaks not only to a person's ears, but speaks directly to their action. And in some ways, you're metaphorically grabbing their hand and showing them the way when you do that. And it's imperative. Let me ask you this. Was it necessary all those years of finding yourself, being quiet, listening, packing stuff down? Was it necessary to be where you are today? I mean, I'd like to say no. However, I'd like to say, no, it wasn't necessary. You know, I don't know. You know, I think that there's, I certainly wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today if I hadn't gone through it. And, you know, there's that old average saying, is that what you say that you only get what you can handle. Well, I've waved that white flag many, many, many times through the years. And I thought it was going to break me, but it didn't. So maybe, maybe I did need to go through all of that to feel strong enough in my own sense and self to And yeah, what Lara just said, it gave me the perspective that I have now. And one of the things that I would say is anytime I talk with someone or people reach out to me through LinkedIn, they say, I've seen this several times and I had to see it many times to actually start to truly believe it because I had been told the opposite for so many years, was that I'm a trailblazer in this space differently than a lot of people because of the vast and varied experiences that I have. I have no doubt I had a nerd virgin brother growing up, definitely the sensory and some other aspects. I don't know if there would have been an actual diagnosis specific for it, but definitely sensory dysregulation. What was causing it? I don't know, but I can certainly say there was. I remember sometimes he kind of like throw himself into a wall or slam into something. And I'm like, oh, he was trying to regulate. So all the experiences I've gone through over the years between my oldest getting diagnosed as autistic, his sensory processing, social skill delay, fine motor or gross motor, My younger one, ADHD, absence seizures, anxiety, visual processing disorder. I've learned so much about myself through them as well. And some other diagnoses that have come up for me that have made more sense from my past to understand how I can now help inform others. So I guess, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't be where I am now without all of those experiences. And even without the burnout, honestly, and because if I hadn't given myself permission to get vulnerable about myself and stop feeling like I had to be the strong one, I remember saying that to my husband, I was, at the doctor when they were checking my heart. And I was like, but I'm the strong one. And he looked at me and he said, whoever told you, you always had to be the strong one. And I looked at him and I started crying. I was like, I don't know. I guess I just thought like, it was like, it was a wake up moment for me. Like, oh my gosh, I guess you're right. I don't need to. Yet my therapist has helped me understand That because I was put into that position at such a young age to go in and make sure my brother was self-regulated so that I could bring them back out and bring them into the family unit. I've been living in that place of being the problem solver of being the survivor of being that grounding force for people to be able to move apart, come back together and move forward. It's all I knew. And because I was doing that for so long, I stopped. I wasn't taking care of me and my needs. And so finally bringing that into the fold has allowed me to truly be who I was always meant to be. And every one of those lessons, I guess, yeah. This is the first time I think I've talked about this without crying. All of those lessons have brought me here. Yeah. There's something. It makes me want to cry. Thanks for sharing that. That's really putting it out there, putting the moose on the table, as you would say. I love it. And I think it's important because so many people are going through things right now that maybe they can't ignore whether it's a family member whether it's themselves giving themselves permission to become the best version themselves the first time in their life or maybe it's a mother giving their kids permission to go through things that they wish they would have gone through you know and it blows my mind to see how much not only how much change is happening, but how quickly the rate of change is happening. I think it's beautiful. It's not without difficulties. It's not without turmoil, but it's a really positive thing for people to begin to understand is necessary. All these things that you've been through, they're necessary. And when you find yourself in burnout or God forbid, suicidation thoughts, like congratulations, you're at the point where you can now begin building yourself anew. And I, I'm so thankful. I talked to a gentleman, Duncan So, who is an expert on burnout. It's happening everywhere because people are at their wit's end. They've done everything they think they should have, and they've done everything that they felt they can, and there's nothing left in the tank. A lot of people lose it right there, but the truth is that is the beginning. It's like you finally dropped the booster from the rocket, and now you're getting into orbit. If people could see that about themselves... They could really begin to be proud. Like, yes, okay, it was necessary. Let that stuff fall away. Maybe the job you thought you loved, let that fall away. The poor relationship you're in, that has to fall away too. These horrible thoughts, they have to fall away. And that sometimes can only come from a month on the couch. That can only come from getting out of a horrible relationship, from being fired. All these things that you're just grasping onto, like hanging the nails, falling down the side of the steel building. let it go and watch what happens. It's so hard to do. It's easy to talk about, but that's why I love your story. It's beautiful. Thank you. And I'm, I'm smirking because yeah, I've did the, I was, you know, I was on that couch. I know. Jobs. I, my husband had said to me when we were engaged at the time and he said, I'm telling you right Now you don't think it is, but that person giving you a severance package was the best thing that could have ever happened. I've stayed in jobs to shelter and shield staff only for me to get let go anyway. And given an exit paper with walking papers and and a severance to find out that they were all fired after the fact because it wasn't me, but that I was their scapegoat. And so what they didn't think about in the moment was once they let me go, they had no one to scapegoat anymore. And all the bricks started falling. The dominoes just fall over. So I think that's what you're saying is so important because while it feels awful and heavy in the moment, letting go and releasing those things when it wasn't meant to be that you were there and you were there shielding the wrong people their dominoes fall and you begin to build your scaffolding and foundation yeah and letting go of the shoulda coulda would have because the shoulds and the coulds and the would have especially I did this because I was told I should right I needed to The need to, the need to, the shoulds, those all lead to the burnout. I get to because I'm choosing to. Get to and choose to are different than should and need. And I think that the rate of change is... not nearly as fast as it needs to be. And I still think it's spiraling in a cycle. 10 years ago, I was talking about all of this with some people that sort of got it, with some that said, why would you want to do that? What do you mean you want to make a business out of what I do now? Why would you want to do that? But they were also some of the people that said, you have to start with an outline. Mm-hmm. They didn't get it. And so like for everyone listening here, if they don't get it, let it go. Don't let your thoughts go. Let them go. Let that environment go. You are not meant to be here to be all things for all people. But when you find your tribe, your sphere, your whatever you want to call it, it clicks. And this is only, I know we posted on each other's things a few times on LinkedIn, but this is the first time we've ever had an actual conversation. I feel like I've known you forever and I can see your face like, yeah, this makes sense. You're getting this. I get this. I get you. We might not understand everything about one another, but we appreciate everything about one another. And that is the paradigm shift. I believe that needs to happen in order for things to really move, um, People might get mad at me for saying this, but I'm going to say it anyway. If we all truly were coming from a place of belonging and curiosity, we never would have needed I D E a S and all the other acronym letters that are there. Because if you are creating a true sense of belonging, that means everybody is able to truly become their authentic self. So we didn't need it all. And that's why I say it's going to be a controversial statement on here. I'm sure when people watch this, but it's what I believe. And I spent years in HR leadership and now I'm on this side of the world and nothing's changed. I was in staffing starting in the mid nineties. It's 2000. What are we in 2024? Yeah. Since the mid 90s, checking boxes on EEOC compliance and implementing this and then partially implementing this and then putting it on your website and putting out a marketing ploy. And then, oh, I'm going to cut that one off next year at the knees. Nothing's changing. Like stop talking and start acting upon it. Embrace, appreciate. Those are things that we need to be doing, not just doing more voiceovers. Yeah, it's really true. It's fascinating to me to think. I love the idea of language and sense awareness. And when I think about school, you spoke about time and children learning different ideas. What if everything had a course of semantics in it? What if when you did a word problem, they asked, is it true? You know what I mean? There should be other parts to problems that we're asking children to do some critical thinking on. I know for me, when I would do math as a kid, I was horrible at the word problems. This train coming out of Alabama, leaving at 100 miles an hour, meets this train coming from California at 75 miles an hour. My question would always be, what is a train? How many cars are on that train? What is it hauling? What color is it? Are there any hills? my teacher would just be so fed up with me. Like, George, that doesn't matter. And I'm like, well, I can't do the problem if I don't know that. How am I supposed to know that? And I would get like an F and I would just be like, I'm so dumb. I can't figure this. It's so simple, they say. I can't figure it out. Why can't I figure this out? But it's the school, and I know there's a funding problem. I know there's amazing teachers out there. But I think much like all of this was necessary for you and I, all of this is necessary for schools to begin changing their ideas and having the courage to talk about – um concepts of time and concepts of semantics and under what is should of me what is could of me what is the long-term consequences of should of like that should be something we teach in class what are the long-term chances of regret like that should be something that's taught in class what is the what is the word authenticity mean like this should be the things that are taught at a grade level so kids can understand what they want to be later in life and have a potential to become the best part of themselves I think what is that too crazy what do you think No, it's not. And I was laughing because the math thing, I don't understand it either. My husband is such a quantitative person and my son has blown us, my oldest son has already blown us all out of the water with his academic abilities. And I'm just like, I don't understand it. So my husband loves to do these critical thinking problems as part of interview processes. And I'm just like, he'll ask me a question. He's like, no, it's this. I'm like, I don't even, I, you lost me at like step two. Like, I don't even know what you're trying to gather here. Then my, my, and my older son will go, but mom, it's so simple. It's this, this, this, this. And my younger son and I'll go, What color is it? Similar to what you were saying. And more recently, I learned about something called dyscalculia. And it's a math learning disability that impairs an individual's ability to learn number-related concepts. perform accurate math calculations, reason and problem solve, and perform other basic math skills. And as I was researching it for a client, I was like, oh my gosh, this is me. It was so interesting. And it's not that I want another diagnosis. The only thing it's good for is informing me that it's okay that I didn't get it because I think differently. And just because I don't get it doesn't mean I'm less than, doesn't mean I'm stupid. It doesn't mean anything other than I just don't get it. And with that, if we brought to light across schools, that way of thinking, which some have, there's charter schools, there's magnet schools, and there are some Public schools are trying to embrace all of that, but it's really with the magnet schools and the charter schools, some private schools, homeschooling. This is why there's so many different schools that have popped up. all over the country because different kids need to learn differently. My older son is in a private school, smaller classes. He does have a 504 and he gets extended time and some other accommodations. But the teachers know him. He's had some of the same teachers all three years so far. Some he's had twice, but they all know him. And they can help him navigate. And it's a good environment for him. My younger son is in a very small private school that is community focused. They do mindfulness every morning. They do yoga twice a week. They are a competency based model instead of a grade based model. So instead of A, B, C, D. E, it's hard for me to say that because it was always A, B, C, D, F, right? They do competencies. Are they just learning? Are they beginning? Are they implementing? Are they beginning, developing? There's four phases of it. So it goes from beginning to exceeding. And so there are these four set parts. And so one is with a lot of help. One was with a little help. One is... most of the time on your own and one is like going above to like the next grade level. But what it does is it allows to break apart each competency. So somebody might be great at multiplication, but if somehow they didn't figure out how to do multi-step adding and subtraction with large numbers, they're not going to be able to do algebra. Because you have to take one and pull it into the other. Same thing with division. They're scaffolding and stepping stones. And when you look at things that if somebody is a good test taker, but they retain and forget, they retain long enough for the test and they forget, they can't bring that knowledge along. And so this competency-based model allows you to figure out where they are. My younger son in some cases is at eighth grade level. And in other things, he's at fifth grade level, even though he's in eighth grade. But if we don't close those gaps, we're just going to keep getting larger. And I think that's a huge part of what the public school systems are not connecting the dots on. And they're pushing people through also. Yeah, of course. So. Yeah, it's mind blowing too. I feel like we just scratched the surface, Lisa. Another quick point that seems to be jumping out of my mind right now is this idea of what we can learn from alternate states of awareness. And if you're neurodivergent, if you're on the spectrum or you have ADD or ADHD or any one of these particular different ways of which you're aware of the world, it's really a rich environment because It's like an explorer. If you have a different sense of awareness, you're exploring the world in a different way, and you can bring back artifacts that other people have never seen before. The same artifact that someone sees this way, if you see it that way, you have a real opportunity to bring it back in front of the tribe and be like, look at this. Here's what this thing is and it's this exercise and imagination once we begin to understand alternate states of awareness then we can begin to understand the different dimensions of the reality around us and I i think that's what we're doing right with the different neurodivergent whether it's our kids or us or people we know it's it's really kind of wonderful when you think about it absolutely and the one thing this could be a whole another conversation what are we talking again EQ is the word that comes to mind for me or the acronym, right? EQ, emotional intelligence, empathy, double empathy, imagination, collaboration, curiosity, all of these words that make people amazing and unique. when you put somebody back to the corporate thing, right? When you put somebody in a corporate role as a quote unquote leader that doesn't have EQ, they could have the highest intelligence level and get a perfect score on their SAT. They cannot read a room if they do not have empathy and compassion or a sense of curiosity to seek to understand another person's perspective. They are continually going to leave behind the people that are the best and most appropriate to be serving them on their teams in those leadership roles. They are not leaders. They're managers that are telling you task, task, task based on societal conditioning. Right. You know, or the constraints that they've been brought up through. And I think that that threads all the way down to the beginning of schooling and all the way up through colleges, universities, and beyond. But you're right. Alternate states of awareness lead us to those different dimensions. And at the center of it, that messy middle, is EQ. And it's gray. Linear thinkers don't like the gray, which is what makes them very uncomfortable talking with those of us that really, truly think non-linearly. I love it. Lisa, this conversation, we have to have a conversation where we could probably talk for three hours because I feel like we just barely scratched the surface. And I really appreciate your time. I love the story. And I'm so thankful that you're out there doing what you do. Before I let you go, though, can you please be so kind as to tell people where they can find you, what you have coming up and what you're excited about? Oh, gosh. Yes. So where can you find me? You can find me on LinkedIn at And you can find me at my website, which is J-O-U-R-N-E-Y, the number two, Bloom, B-L-O-O-M, so Journey to Bloom. I'm on Facebook as well. My maiden name is Lazar, so you might have to find me under Lisa Lazar, Richard. And gosh, see, I didn't write it down, so I forgot your last part. Was it, what am I excited about? Excited about, yeah. Thank you. More of this, because the more I can get my voice out there, the more that I can help others help themselves. And just really embracing and wrapping my arms more around the masses. So having an opportunity to come in and be in a position where I can have a one to many position. engagement with people. I'm not going to do it for free. I did it for free for many, many years, and I've learned my lesson on that. However, I'm willing to align with people. And what I'm most excited about is everything I do going forward is in collaboration with others. And it's really allowed me to lean into other people's perspectives, meet people like you, engage in these conversations. So that's really what I'm excited about, just doing a lot more of this this year. Well, fantastic. Everybody who's listening today or tomorrow or 10 years from now, please go down to the show notes. Check out Lisa. She's doing some incredible work. She's definitely brilliant. And I think that if you find any of this conversation you're curious about, she's a person to go to for answers. That's all we got for today. Hang on briefly afterwards, Lisa. Everyone else, I hope you have a beautiful day. Clint, Laura, John, everybody in the comments, thank you so much for hanging out with us. And that's all we got for today, ladies and gentlemen. Aloha. Thank you.