Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope the spring is treating you well and the sun is shining and the birds are singing. I got an incredible guest for you today. I want to cover some interesting topics and some interesting ground and some ideas about communication. Catherine S. O'Donnell. And as we delve into the realm of brand empowerment and communication finesse, let us welcome Catherine, a beacon of strategic vision and mentorship in the entrepreneurial landscape. With her expertise as a brand visibility coach and communications consultant, Catherine intricately weaves together the threads of brand identity, tailored communication strategies, guiding entrepreneurs toward the zenith of their potential. Through personalized mentorship programs, she not only shapes personal brands, but also nurtures the very essence of effective communication, illuminating pathways for aspiring entrepreneurs to shine brightly in their respective domains. Join us as we explore the depths of strategic branding and the artistry of communication under Catherine's insightful guidance. Catherine, thank you for being here today. How are you? Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. And that introduction, wow, that was amazing. You almost had me tongue-tied. What an interesting time we live in right now with the world of social media, with individuals becoming their own brand and You know, one thing I have noticed, Kath, I thought we would just jump right into this and start kind of digging into some things. What do you think is is for me, I try to strike a balance between authenticity and marketability, leaning more towards authenticity. Like I don't I know my own brand and I know so many solopreneurs and entrepreneurs are thinking about branding and authenticity. But can you speak to the idea of a balance in the relationship between those two? Definitely. You know, I think that every time we try and get ourselves out there, we think about how are we going to market ourselves? How are we going to brand ourselves? And a lot of times we just come up with the idea of, hey, we're just going to get ourselves out there. It doesn't matter. We don't need to have any kind of strategy. However, one of the biggest strategies that people really need to have is being authentic. You know, when people really want to learn about you and they want to learn about your company, they want to learn who you are and they don't want just something formulaic. They just want to know like stories about yourself or, you know, what, things did you have trouble with, for instance, and how did you get through it? And because all of us are vulnerable at some times in our lives and that's how we're being authentic. We're being ourselves. Yeah, it's really well said. And it's interesting to see how that aligns with the new strategies of like building online. And you see people come out and talk about their failures. And for me or other people, I see that being, especially like on the LinkedIn community and other communities like it, people really want to understand the roadblocks that you came up against so that when they face them, they can use them as a guidepost or maybe they can learn something from them. And I think that that speaks to the idea of authenticity. for so long, right? We've tried to steer away. Hey, don't show them this. Don't show them your weakness. But it seems the opposite now. Same thing. It allows people to connect with you. And I think that connection is something that we all are really craving. That's what we want now. And life has changed after the last few years where so much more is online. And we want to be able to connect with people. And so being able to connect with people online allows us, when somebody is being authentic and showing that vulnerable side and showing something about themselves, that really allows people to be like, Yes, I, I connect with that person. I, I agree with them. And, and I want to be able to work with them, for instance. Yeah, I agree. There seems to be this, at least in my opinion, there seems to be this sort of intertwining relationships, especially when we lean into authenticity, like the intertwining of personal relationships with business relationships. And maybe that's always been there with the idea of the workplace. But I'm curious, how do you define boundaries between those two relationships? That's a really great question. I think a lot of people are struggling to find that balance. And for instance, me who has a family, I don't tend to usually talk about my family for one, because if I'm in a situation where I'm working with people, if they know so much about me, like, wait a second, I need to have that boundary of wanting to protect my family. However, I want to be able to also share enough about myself. that people can connect with me and feel like they can work with me because they know who I am. And family is a big part of who I am. So there is this fun line that we all walk of how much we can give of ourselves. And when you go on Facebook, for instance, people are always showing pictures of their families and their kids and But it's different, right, when you go on to LinkedIn, which is a professional platform. So you want to give a little bit of your personal side, but you also want to be professional. So I think when you're looking at how you're going to post and that strategy of how you're going to post and get yourself out there, have brand visibility for yourself, think about the types of things that you, the boundaries that you're willing to go towards. And stick with them. Because those are your values. And that's exactly who you are. And you should stick with that. Yeah, it's good advice. It's very interesting to me to see the way in which people react or establish boundaries that are out there. You know, especially if you're... it seems to me like on some level we are, we're beginning to move past the idea of traditional products and services where it used to be, Hey, I sell a mailing list or I have this t-shirt company, but now it's like, I'm a coach or I'm consulting. And there's all these ways in which we're seeing the coming together of the business and the authentic self and it's difficult to make boundaries there because so much of what you're talking about in coaching or helping people is relationships. And the people who have, who have really good relationships are the ones that tend to be pretty good coaches. What's your thoughts on that? Well, I would say that the biggest thing is, you know, back up a little bit. For instance, if you are a coach or you're a consultant, you're a mentor, you have to be able to figure out what your brand is. And that, in coming up with your brand, you're going to be asking yourselves, okay, what is it that I want to be able to get out there to people that are about me? How am I going to connect with people? What do I want them to know about me? Is it that I'm a likable person? Is it that I'm going to always get back to them? Is it that they're going to be able to learn to trust me as we continue to work together? What is it that you want your brand to be? And Everybody should be able to write this down and say exactly what their brands are and including your values. That is a big part of your brand. And so when you are connecting with people, and I keep saying connecting, however, it's just such a big term that nowadays I think that people really need that connection. So when you are working with people and you have that boundary, you have that fine line that you've created because you've established who your brand is, who your personal brand is. And so going into every situation that you might have, you know that boundary is because you've already created it before you started. Yeah, I like that. Often it makes me wonder about when I think about branding and I think about the individuals and entrepreneurs, I can't help but think about education. And it makes me wonder, like it seems that the education that I got coming up, I'm almost 50. So, you know, I saw the traditional high school, four-year college and people getting degrees, but almost nobody I know that went to college for a certain thing ended up getting a job in that certain area. I don't know if to laugh, but that is, yeah. Yeah, you hear about that a lot. Yeah. And I, you know, perhaps it's a lack of discipline or maybe it is just, you know, it speaks to the idea that of the education system is changing. Like what, what do you see on the horizon? I know it's speculative, but do you see maybe companies looking away from the four-year degree and started looking towards lived experience? Or what do you see maybe on the horizon as far as education and business? That's a really great question. So my family, they're all academics. I'm the only one that isn't in academia. But I, and I've somewhat stayed with my four year degree. I graduated with a degree in advertising and a minor in Russian. So my advertising degree, I moved out just a little story about me. And then I'll answer your question is I graduated from Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff, Arizona. And I went to the Bay Area and this was in the year 2000. And this was at the time of the dot-com bust. So I thought that I was going to get a job right out of college, and it was going to be in advertising, only to find out that soon after I moved, a lot of the advertising agencies were laying people off. So I ended up getting a job in consulting, and that was my first real professional job. And I was working for the state of California, and And on renewable energies. And it was my kind of first foot in the door in consulting. And then I got laid off. Almost two years in. And that really allowed me to reassess what it was that I wanted to do. And I was really passionate about animals. And I still am. You can see a cat occasionally walking through on this podcast. But I... really wanted to work in animal welfare. And so I took a significant decrease in a salary so that I could just get my foot in the door. And I started working for an animal welfare organization in San Francisco. And it turned out that a lot of the places that I ended up working throughout my 20-year career, both in animal welfare and in community health, they all needed to rebrand themselves. They needed this opportunity that if they were going to reach new donors, for instance, I was a director of development, fundraising, and communications. If they wanted to reach these donors and they wanted to learn from, gain trust from them, they needed to be able to brand themselves. And so that's something that I did. I put them all through a rebranding effort. So I still am in the communications-related field 20-some years later from when I graduated. However, I think that a lot of people go to college thinking that they want to do something and it doesn't always work out that way. Like the dot-com bust, I didn't foresee that when I was getting an advertising degree. I thought it would be easy. And I loved it. I loved the creativity in it. So I think a lot of people, they tend to go to college thinking that they're going to get their degree in this and they're going to immediately be able to find a job. However, going through a college degree or the experience of it too, you learn so much from it. You learn about different cultures of the people that you're going to school with. You're immersed in a situation where You're taking classes all together. You have to learn teamwork to be able to work together. You're using and you're learning all of these life skills that are going to be able to help you in a professional setting, whatever that is. So whatever people end up doing nowadays, and college has gotten so frightfully expensive for a lot of people, you know, like for instance, my nephew is going to be going off to college soon. My son is going to be going off to college soon. And we have to look at it as, what's going to be the best opportunity for them and what they want to do, foster their creativity and their knowledge, learn from it, and then what they're going to do next is up to them. That's an awesome story. Thank you for sharing it. It often reminds me that I think on some level, life is the ultimate coach. You know, you go to school in advertising and then you go to Silicon Valley for the .com and then you get laid off. And like being laid off is the opportunity of a lifetime to rebrand yourself. You know what I mean? And so like, you've got that lesson. Life's like, oh, you want to do this? Okay, let me show you. Here's your opportunity. However, I think you also need to have quite a few life skills under your belt before you know how to rebrand yourself. I remember that first time that I was laid off and I had so many conversations with family members and I just felt so incredibly devastated. How could my whole department who did a really amazing job be laid off? but that was the reality of everything happening. And I think that I got to the point where I ended up writing so many lists of what do I do well? What do I not do well? What do I enjoy? What do I not enjoy? That I finally came to the point of talking to different mentors and family members that I could figure out what I wanted to do. And so if anybody on this podcast is listening and is in that type of scenario and they're trying to find a job, for instance, and they can't because they're up against a sea of competition, this is where it's a really important exercise to be able to figure out what it is that you want to do. What is it that you feel passionate about? And why is it? So the who, what, where, when, why, and how. Go through that list and decide what do you do really well at? What do you not do so well at? And what are you willing to do? And have that passion drive you to want to be able to do the next thing. Yeah, that's really well said. And in times of change, it seems like you figure out who you are. And it seems like we as a country, maybe as a world, we're going through this change. Like there will be, it seems to me with the economy the way it is, that a lot of people are gonna find themselves in a position you were in and that I were in and so many of the people we love are in. And that is rebranding yourself. Maybe coming to work one day and realizing, hey, we're sorry, but there's no longer a spot for you. Or maybe being so fed up at work, you quit. Whichever route you take, you end up at this destination, these crossroads, I call them. We're like, okay, I've done this. Now what? Am I going to continue to go down this road I didn't really love? Am I going to have the courage to find a new way and start at the bottom again? And how am I, how am I people going to think about me? Maybe we could speak to the idea of identity. And cause I think that that is at the crossroads of branding and personal failure and success. What this, this idea of identity, right? Yeah. You're asking a lot of really amazing questions. Thank you. I would say, you know, identity is definitely associated with your brand. It is who you are and it is how you think and function and how you get out there, how you present yourself. And when I was mentioning before, when you are putting together who, who that list of, of who you are, You know, do you want to be representative of, like, you dress well or you're laid back? You want to dress a certain way. All of that is who you are. It's your identity. And when you are working in jobs, sometimes there are situations where your identity becomes blurred, right? where certain situations want you to be somebody that you're not. And those are the types of scenarios you have to ask yourself, is this what I want to be doing? Do I enjoy what I do? And you have to get to the point where you are happy with you. And I think a lot of that is that The life lessons that we come across, the people that we come across, the situations. I've been in multiple toxic situations in work environments that were really hard to deal with. And I think it's really important to figure out your, who you are, what makes you tick, what makes you happy. And life is short. And I've gone through multiple types of situations where I've had to pivot my career. Nothing is ever going to be perfect. And situations are going to be hard many times, and we're just going to have to learn from them. And we're just going to have to make them better for ourselves. Yep. It's, it's really well said. And I, I think that this is where, I think that there's a real incredible intersection between identity, branding, and storytelling. And a lot of the times the identities that we have come from the stories that we tell ourselves. And I know for a fact is I did a job for a long time that I liked, and then I slowly began to realize that I've grown out of it. It was like an old pair of shoes. And even though I could put them on every day and they were comfortable. The soul was out of them. I just felt like my soul was out of it. And because I didn't really have the courage to walk in and say, I quit. I got to this point where I found so much anger in everything that I just, that was the outlet for it. And as I look back on it now, I realize I outgrew that. I outgrew that part of myself. And whether you walk in and you say no more, not another day, you quit or you find reasons to go at odds with people. And maybe there are good reasons. Maybe you have a legitimate gripe about things and you just press, press, press, press, press. Cause you know, it's for somehow like, I'm not going to quit. I'll make them fire me, you know, but it's, it's interesting. These stories we tell ourselves. And I was wondering, maybe you could share some stories that you told yourself in these difficult times, maybe a before and an after story. Yeah, I think a lot of it is definitely your mindset for especially being my first real professional job out of college and I get laid off with the rest of my department. Oh my goodness. I think I was lacking confidence. And school was not easy for me. It was actually a downright challenge. And I think one of my mom's happiest days in her life was seeing me graduate high school. And it wasn't that I was rebelling or, or whatever, but I just didn't fit the mold of what our education system wanted and needed at the time. And I got to the point where then I graduated college. I became my own person. I was no longer in my brother's shadow and, and, and I, You know, I would have some teachers saying, well, your brother gets this, why can't you? And you know, my brother's a brilliant person and I've always so highly respected him. And, uh, so when teachers would say something like that to me, that really crushed my confidence. And I was just trying to be my own person. I wasn't trying to follow in the footsteps of my brilliant brother. So when you are trying to figure out who you are and your identity, that is a huge component that you need to face is your confidence. How do you perceive yourself? Because if everybody around you, and this is what a mentor and a coach would be doing is they would be saying, You're doing great. Go for it. You can do this. We know you can do it. But you also have to believe that you can do it. And so over time, as I really started to gain more confidence about myself, and the abilities that I had, and the knowledge of what I did really well and what I didn't do so well in, I know what those, those are. And I can feel good about those. So I think everybody has a story. Everybody has a story to be able to share and add value. And it's just a question about really having that confidence to be able to share it. Yeah, I agree. In fact, sometimes I think it helps provide confidence to yourself if you look at yourself as a main character in a story. It sort of gives you like a third-person perspective, and what that does is that kind of alleviates some of the pressure of you being the person that has to do all these things. But if you just take a moment to be like, okay, Catherine is the main character in this story, and she's on this hero's journey, but right now she's just doing this thing. Maybe – What would the author do if they wanted Catherine Jupiter? Well, they would probably put her in a dangerous situation. And then that will give you the idea, oh, maybe that's why I'm in this situation now. Maybe this is an opportunity. But just shifting that perspective slightly allows you to see the world in a different way. And that's just a fancy way of saying it changes your relationship with it, right? It's interesting, I think. Absolutely. And I think if people get the opportunity to be able to travel the world. Yep. I think they should. Take that opportunity, take that time to learn about different cultures. So not only are you learning about the places that you're visiting, about the people that you're meeting, you're learning about their hardships, you're able to say, you know what? What I thought was impossible for me, I look at this other culture or these people that I've met in this country and wow, they are persevering in something that is really hard. Maybe I shouldn't think of this as something that's so hard for me to be able to deal with. So if people get that opportunity, I think that they learn about themselves on top of it. They get to build that confidence because if you've traveled around the world and you are like, how do you get through the Metro system in a totally different language? You know, it might take you three hours, but you'll get there. Well, life is the same way. You might have, you might get on the wrong train. You might go in the totally different direction, but ultimately you'll get to the destination that you were meant to get on. Yeah, it's well said. Thomas Hutchison says, change is tough, especially if you have built an identity through your career. We literally have to break character to implement change. It's going against the grain, challenging expectations and presumptions, but it is literally how we grow. Thanks, Thomas. It's a beautiful, beautiful way to say it. It is a beautiful way to say it. You know, Catherine, maybe this is something that you've done, I think. I mean, we're just kind of getting to know each other. But maybe one way to travel without having to spend a lot of money is studying a language. Like, you've studied Russian. How much did that help you see a different world? When you have to conjugate verbs different, when you see different sentence structure, doesn't that allow you to see the world a little bit different? It does. I do have to preface to say that Russian was my first language. Oh! Okay, so you had to learn English then. What a bunch of weirdos, these English people that speak this crazy language. Well, so my mom, she's retired now, but she was a French and Russian professor. And so we were able to travel quite a bit. And there's this article that is coming out in Pivot Magazine this month. And it talks about my time in Kenya when I was growing up. But it also talks about some of my travels to Siberia and on the Trans-Siberian Railway. and talking about how important it is to travel and also to learn another language. I know that a lot of kids go through the school system and say, oh, I have to learn another language for another year. And it might not be exactly the same as really fully immersing yourself into that language when you travel. However, it does give you that base that you need even to learn English. And the reason why is because When you learn English and you learn proper grammar, you really pay attention. It's a lot easier to learn another language when you have that basic information and knowledge. It fascinates me. And it never seems to amaze me that people that speak different languages have such a nuanced view on reactions or identity or branding or communicating in general. It speaks to the idea of words and letters as symbols. And sometimes you can read a person's face or sometimes you can read a room. And I think that different languages really help people do that. That's got to be a really... fascinating skill. And I'm sure growing up in your house with a mother that was a French teacher and a Russian teacher had its own stories behind it. Yeah. Well, my, my dad is Russian and, uh, my mom is the Russian professor. And so that was what we did was we spoke Russian in the household until I got to the point where in education, um, they were having to call my brother to translate because I was mixing up the two. My brain couldn't, uh, couldn't figure out how to change over to English in the schools and then Russian at home. And so then the family started speaking English at home. However, you know, every time we would go to Siberia, we would go to Moscow and St. Petersburg and places like that as well. But then we would also go into the deeps of Siberia, which was an incredible experience. but you would really be able to speak and immerse yourself into that language again and then come back from that. And, and I, and I have to say that, you know, one of the, one of the tricks that I do as one of my life lessons is every time that I'm going to speak on a podcast or I'm going to give a presentation or have some kind of interview, I always speak to myself in Russian because I am getting my brain warmed up to be able to speak in front of people. And so, you know, that's just one other way that people knowing another language, it can be helpful. Yeah. Do you dream in English and Russian? No, I only dream in English that I can, that I pay attention to. I don't exactly wake up and say, Oh yeah, that's right. I had that dream in Russian. Yeah. It's fascinating to me just to think about the way language works. You know, I'm a huge fan of imagery too. Like when I do, I'll make some videos sometimes for some podcast or some graphic design for some companies that I work for in times. And I'm always trying to find ways to use images to speak to the idea of what it is I want to say. And when I look at some of the old school Soviet posters or some of the the Chinese posters or the American posters, like the uncle Sam pointing to you, like there's so much rich, symbolic ideas in language. And I'm wondering what are your thoughts on that? And do you, do you use that when you help companies brand or work with identities? Yeah, well, it really, it depends on the client that I work with. And a lot of those posters were very much of the Soviet era. And I know exactly what you're talking about. And, uh, And they always had a very specific point. And so now we get to the point where we're marketing a lot. And the question is, what is it that we really want to market for the client? What's that campaign that we have? What's that strategy? And what is that focal point that the client wants to get out there to people? So it really depends on that. But imagery is huge. And I fully agree with that. that it's not just about the words, but it has to be about the imagery to make it really impactful. And we look at the content, for instance. So when we look at LinkedIn now, the algorithm has changed enough to be able to incorporate imagery. So we've got videos and we've got carousels, we have pictures. And some people really complained at the beginning saying this was very much like Instagram. but look at how popular Instagram is because people relate to those images. And so when we're putting something together for people, it really has to be impactful in the messaging, but then also with the visuals. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I have this theory and this idea that I'm working on. And it seems to me that as like a species of, the spoken word or even the written word is just like a piece, like the, Our spoken word is like a letter. And when you add multiple languages plus imagery, it's like adding verbs to nouns. Like that imagery really helps you begin to understand meaning. But language alone doesn't do it. Like we could talk right past each other and we don't define. No one sits down and is like, you know, Catherine, before we start, let's define our terms here. No one does that. Well, I actually have a story about that. And when I was in Russia... there was right at the checkout at a grocery store, there was dishwashing detergent called BARF. B-A-R-F. And I couldn't believe my eyes. And I think one of those situations where you're like, why am I going to clean my dishes with BARF? And so this is what I talk about too with some of my clients is, When you're looking at what your brand is and how you want to get your brand out there, we need to do the research to make sure that this truly can go into all languages, all cultures, that it's not something that we're going to be cleaning up with barf. Oh, it's so fascinating to think about and how the translation and meaning and- It's important. It really is important, you know? And it speaks to the idea of, imagine two people just sitting down and how much of that disconnect is there. Like that's an easy one because you can see it in another country on a shelf and it's two different things. But if you're just two people in passing or better yet at a business meeting trying to communicate, And I'm laughing about barf and you're like, how dare you laugh at my soap? What's wrong with you? You know, like. I don't mean to laugh. Yeah, it's awesome. It gives me hope. I think we're on the cusp of really beginning to convey meaning. I think that's been such a problem for us for so long. Well, I think also something that you talked about a little bit before is And it's a really important skill is emotional intelligence. Because when we're having conversations and a lot of times, you know, we, we were just either living with ourselves or we were living with family for a couple of years and kind of, we forgot how to communicate with people. And it's not just about how we communicate through our words, but it's also how do we communicate through our body language? And what is it? So if you're in a meeting with people and you're face to face again, what is that body language telling you? And even what is that body language that you can see on Zoom? telling you? And what is it conveying? Are they feeling uncomfortable? Are they leaning forward, anxiously awaiting to hear what you're going to say? What are their facial expressions saying? Do they believe you? Do they not trust you? What type of cues are you getting? And a lot of times, people forget that very important skill of that's imperative to be able to have good conversations, good relationships, and allow us to be able to thrive in a multiple scenario. I love it. I think it speaks to this idea that maybe you don't come into this world, maybe you come out of it. And if that's the case, look at your environment around you. Who's this guy, George the Telescope? Like, what's that guy peering into? What's he got these books? What is written on that whiteboard behind him? Is that a graph? Like, what... But all of these things, like the movement, the stuff behind you, these are all cues that are a symptom of the situation in which you can communicate more effectively. What is the environment telling you? Are they leaning in? Is this person stammering because they're scared? Are they thinking of their thought? Did they miss a talking point? And that's something that... Podcasting has really helped me begin to understand there's so many different layers to communication. And we're not even talking about the situation that happened before you came into the conversation. But if you're thinking about that, like that could be something that is assessed on the eyes or the bags beneath someone's eyes. Like there's so much rich, valuable texture that is available to us. If you're willing to just take a moment and maybe you have to... Breathe it in through the olfactory sense and get the smell of the room a little bit. Absolutely. Absolutely. I love that. Well said. It's the smell test. There's something to be said about all of our senses working together. I read something once. I think it was Samuel Clemens who said that the written word is the carcass of the spoken word. When you think about that, I think about... indigenous people and storytellers, or you look at some of the traditional poems that were written about Odysseus. These were all stories that were told to us because when you tell a story, you are allowing everyone to use all their senses to participate in that story. And if I just read something to you, it's like, and then George was tied to the mast because he didn't want to hear the people scream. Right, right. There is an art to storytelling. And whenever, you know, I might be feeling low, for instance, and I'll call my dad up and it's like, he was a professor for 40 years and has so many different stories. And he'll always tell me a story and it makes me feel better because it has a positive outcome. And the story has the beginning, the middle, the end, and how it relates to my situation. And the art of storytelling is incredible. It's something that everybody should learn. Yeah, ultimately, I think that's what a brand is. Much like we spoke earlier in this podcast about being in a situation where you're redefining yourself, a brand or something is in a story. They're the main character in the story. And we are just the people, we're the narrators of that story. And there's a lot of, hopefully, that that story is told with not only compassion, but with some, some ethics behind it. It can't be like, here's these magic beans and you're going to get these magic shoes and you'll drive this car and you'll have a puppy and this person will love you. Like the story kind of went awry, you know, we, and maybe that's, maybe that is necessary to get rid or maybe it went through a period of poor storytellers or something. What do you think? Yeah, no, I think you really do need to have ethics behind every story because people listen to every word. And when you are creating the story, you're creating that visualization that people are going through that journey along with your story. And so if there is no real ethics behind it, then you're misleading people. And I don't think that that formulates a good story. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Thomas says, I love to learn new words to give context to things we have limited vocabulary for. Are there any words or phrases in other languages that gives you a better understanding of feelings and emotions that you wish everyone knew? So the question, what is the question, I'm sorry? So in German, they have the idea of schadenfreude, where you get a little bit excited when something bad happens to somebody. We don't really have that equivalent in English. Is there some other literary context or structures that you're aware of that we don't have maybe in different cultures? Well, Russian can be like that too. And then a variety of different languages can be like that. And I I grew up not far from Navajo and Hopi and, you know, there are certain inflections, for instance, in words. But what I was going to say was in English, we tend to use body language. We used to use our hands and like when we have inflections, you know, we raise our voices to, to, to share that of, of, that excitement. And, you know, when we, when we do this with our hands and we're so excited, you know, we tend to be more body movement oriented. If that's answering the question. Yeah. I think that there's so many different dimensions of the language like that. And if, One particular area that I've noticed that may be an evolution of some sorts is it happened with, and I think you probably are aware of this, because I think it started happening in the dot com, like when all of a sudden we started verbing things, like to Google something became a verb. And when I, you know, it's weird to think about when I look at that process. And then there was like this, there was this pathway for people to say, yes, you should turn your company into a verb. But that made me start thinking like, wow, that makes me see nouns as a process. And what does it mean if nouns are a process? Now it's not George as a person, it's George in a process. What that allows me to grow and it, it changes the course of the story in some way. And as the language evolves and maybe that's what's happening in this transition is nouns are becoming verbs. And what does that mean? Like that means a lot. That means that this thing that was stationary is now moving and changing and it's fluid. And that's pretty interesting, right? It is interesting. Most definitely. Yeah. And I think that that's something that translates into other languages, right? Like I know that Spanish has different nouns. I speak a little bit of Spanish and I know it conjugates different, but that particular... method still translates like nouns can still become verbs. And when that happens, that takes away the stagnation where it takes away, in some ways it takes away despair, I think, because despair is something that's stuck. Despair is something that won't leave you. Despair is a dark cloud that overhangs you. But if despair becomes, or the dark cloud becomes a verb, it's clouding over me. Well, that means that potentially that cloud can be dispersed or something, but. And that's also in the past. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Exactly. We need to be able to move forward. This is where you're talking about ongoing, going forward. Yeah. The idea of verbing everything. I should probably write that down. That sounds pretty good. You could have a new quote and put it out on the internet. Yeah. Well, I think that would speak right to Thomas and what he was saying about, and isn't that sort of what brands want to do is they're looking to define the ineffable. They want their product or their service or their brand to describe this new thing. And like, that's part of it is like touching the intangible, touching the ineffable and trying to describe it on some level. Absolutely. It's that one word. It's the one to three words that capture your brand that when you ask yourself what your brand of your company is or your brand, what are the three things that make the most sense to you that you can share with the world? I never thought about it like that, but yeah. The messaging that you can share with the world, like it's, What relationship does contagion have to branding, do you think? Contagion in terms of what sense? It seems to me that an effective brand is contagious. It's something that people want to be a part of. It's something that you can be a part of if you get close enough to it. And I can have some of that rub off on you. Other people want to be around you. Well, having a positive brand will definitely be contagious, right? So for instance, you know, you've got your podcast where you are this really outgoing person and you ask a lot of really amazing intellectual questions and that's, and you have these incredible visuals that go along with your, with your podcast and your brand. And that is who you are. And so that's, putting that out there. Like for instance, I love color. Am I going to put out every single color on my website? No, but I'm going to pick the top three colors that I really enjoy and that give a good feeling. So for instance, blue gives off a feeling of more relaxed, calm, you know, and like a purple that's a passion, trust. And then I kind of like pink a little bit. Like, I'm sorry, but I like those three colors, right? So what do I do when I rebrand myself into a website is I include the top three colors that I really enjoy that have a positive feeling. And I know that it has a positive feeling based on the psychology of colors. So I do my research. So I love animals, right? Whenever I start putting out content like, uh, carousels, for instance, I include animals in my, my carousels because that's who I am. And I, I have a client for instance, who's working on, uh, putting together a dog translation device so that we can better understand dogs. So it's a natural fit for me because I love animals. So those are really the brand identifiers for me, just like what you're saying, George, is those are the brand identifiers for you as well. And people will relate to them, especially if you keep it positive and relatable. I love it. And it's... It really makes me for the first time begin to think about brand identifiers as a language with which you're speaking to your community. You know, that's, that's a great, that's beautiful. Absolutely. And every community is going to be different. So depends on it. Could be in New York, for instance, and your messaging is completely off because you have it a certain way. Or you're in the Bay Area, San Francisco Bay Area, and people prefer a specific kind of messaging. And if you want that community to resonate with you, you have to be able to share that in the way that people can digest it, understand it, and relate to it. Same thing with visuals, I do have to say. So I was working with, quick story, George, is I was working with someone who said, hey, I'm going to use this sunset and I'm going to use it on this advertisement that we're going to be doing on the West Coast. And I said to him, I said, you know what, can we use another picture? And he was really surprised. And I said, because that's an East Coast sunset. You want a West Coast sunset. And it was something that he had never thought of. So when you're looking up visuals, for instance, for free visuals that you want to include in your campaigns or whatnot, make sure you do your research and find the right visuals for your community. Yeah, it's amazing. Well, they say a picture's worth a thousand words. And for someone who's drawn to that particular brand identifier, it can be offensive. Like, look at this. This guy's running east looking for a sunset. What's going on here? I think that this has to do with the brand. You know what I mean? Maybe they're running east looking. That's not something I would do. I would totally gook out on that and be like, I don't like that one word. Yeah. People are interesting, and I find it fascinating, language and imagery, and especially all the campaigns and the identifiers, because one certain thing can really make people drawn to it, and something else can move them away. There used to be this T-shirt that I really liked, and for so long, I couldn't figure out why I liked it, but it was all these... It just looked like five flowers on there. But it said love. But I never saw the word love. I just saw the flowers. And I'm like, oh, I don't know. I really like that shirt. And someone's like, do you think it's because it says love? And I'm like, mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, that's exactly why. It's so interesting the way that that can be done. Or another one is FedEx. If everybody looks at the FedEx logo, there's an arrow between the E and the X, right in between those two things right there. And like, there's all this interesting symbolism that is incorporated into the word itself that can be like a dance or it can be like something. It's like flowery rhetoric in a way. Absolutely. But it's also when you're coming up with a brand, you want to see how it makes people feel. So are there specific colors that make people feel a certain way? Are there imageries that make people feel good or they make them feel sad or scared or upset? Those are the types of things that you have to ask yourself when you're using the imagery, but then also when you are using the messaging to go along with the imagery so that it makes sense, it completes an entire picture. I love it. You know, there's even like another layer of like, if you have the imagery and you have the tagline, what about the ba-da-ba-ba-ba? What about a little jingle behind there? You know what I mean? Like, how does that like just put the icing on the cake? Let me put a little five minute, let me just throw a little bit of song behind that to make you really like it. Well, and there's also a psychology behind that, right? So one of the positive jingles that people will use, it's because they want you to feel good after you finish that and to be able to remember it. They make it simple and positive, upbeat, lifting so that you're like, I remember that jingle. You remember the jingle, the more you know, do you remember that one? Um, can you sing it? Oh gosh, no. But it was the star with, you know, that went across the screen. It was like, you know, yep. Okay. Now I remember. Yeah. It was like a shooting star, like a gold one. Yeah. Yeah. With a rainbow that went behind it. And it was always this, it was this tagline, the more, you know, and, and so they would bring these types of TV, um, uh, like educational things to you. And it was always like the more you know, and it was just something that would be really easy to remember. Yeah. Yeah. On some level, I think it really speaks to the idea of education because things that are catchy like that, I guess they call that sticky, things that are sticky like that can really be used as devices to help us learn. In some ways, they're used to help us consume things or see things. But some of these same particular branding identifiers could really be used in the world of education, right? Absolutely. It's... I think when we associate with education and whatnot, we think of a certain thing and we think that we're going to go through education and we're going to get a four-year degree or we're going to get a degree and we're going to kickstart our career in the same type of... So it really is about, I guess, changing the mindset in a way and how you look at it. And a lot of that mindset has really changed, as you mentioned in the beginning of the podcast. Yeah, it's true. On some level, I think that storytelling, brand identifiers, and even rhetorical devices are ways in which we can really bring ourselves to give a positive message. When you look at different rhetorical devices or logical fallacies. It's all these ways in which we can see the world and there are different lenses to which we can see them. But I'm hopeful that everybody takes some time to when they see a brand or if they're thinking about creating their own brand, that the first thing they should do is probably reach out to Catherine and ask her opinion on what they should do. Absolutely. That is the first and most important step is reach out to Catherine through OP Creative Communications. I love that segue. Thank you, George. I appreciate that. Well, I think you're really fun to talk to and I really enjoy our conversation. Thank you. Thank you. And I feel like we're just scratching the surface. I know we're kind of coming up on the hour here, but you can come back and I think that we have a lot to talk about. We should bring some more people in the room. I would love to come back. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That would be really a lot of fun. Yeah. Before I let you go though, like where can people find you? What do you have coming up and what are you excited about? Yeah. So I am at OP. So think of optimized and it's opcreativecommunications.com is my website. And people can get in touch by establishing a, like filling out a form of what it is that they need and what they're interested in learning more about. And they can set up a time to meet me. And, you know, what I do is I really, I help people with their brand visibility. I help them with the communications consulting. So for instance, if they work for a company, a lot of times companies don't tend to think of both internal and external communications as being something that really should go hand in hand. And just as a tip, if a company, for instance, is listening today, always work with your internal communications first before you start putting out the message externally to people. Everybody internally, staff, employees, everybody should know exactly what your message is before it is out there in the public. It just shows that the company really knows what's going on. And then also I mentor people. So whether or not it's somebody that is trying to get a new position within their company or they're trying to look at a new career opportunity, I'm more than happy to mentor and be that positive force that they might need and keep them accountable for what they need to do and keep them on track. And something that I'm really excited about that's coming out, like I mentioned earlier in the podcast, there's this pivot magazine and it's gone out to 30 million subscribers and Jason Pfeffer, who is the editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, is on the cover. And so it's something that's incredibly exciting. And I'm going to be doing my own promotion. I'm just working on putting that strategy together to get that out there. And yeah, I just really enjoy working with people and seeing them thrive and do really well. And I love being their champion. I love it. It's fascinating. Pivot Magazine, I can't wait to check it out and check out the article on there. And it's a fascinating thing to think about the idea of internal communications in a company and the messaging that happens outwards. It makes me want to think of 20 more questions, but... subject next time I'm more than happy to yeah fantastic fantastic okay well everybody if you I hope you enjoyed the conversation today go down to the show notes check out katherine reach out to her check out the new issue of pivot magazine reach out to her website and if you have any questions she's really fun to talk to so I would I would encourage everyone to go check it out hang on briefly afterwards katherine everybody else I hope you have a beautiful day I hope you do your best to tell yourself a great internal story and become the champion that you are that's all we got aloha aloha