Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope the birds are singing and the wind is at your back. I got a great show for you today, everybody, coming all the way from across the pond. I have with me the incredible Marika, and I am thrilled to introduce you to her. She's a visionary in the field of psychedelic-assisted coaching from the Netherlands. with a profound belief in turning potential into reality. Marika guides individuals in overcoming personal growth barriers and exploring the limitless possibilities within themselves. Drawing from her extensive experience as a psychedelic-assisted coach at The Matter, Marika has been transforming lives since June of 2018. Her innovative approach is further enriched by her role as a trainer and coach with Mindwork Productions, where she has been a freelance coach since September 21. Her professional journey is distinguished by her previous leadership roles in human resources, including senior HR positions at Adidas, Nutritia, and Reebok Asia Pacific. And I kind of have a fond feeling for someone who has that much understanding of relationships. It sounds like human resources is a way in which you really have to understand relationships and points of view and awareness. And Marika, thank you so much for being here today. How are you? I'm doing good. Thank you, George. Thanks for having me on this show. Really, really excited. So nice meeting you and your listeners, of course. Yeah, appreciate it. Yeah, I'm stoked you're here. I'm a huge fan of psychedelics, huge fan of change and relationships and awareness. And maybe you could just fill in some background. Like, have you always been sort of an explorer? Have you always been curious? Or how did you get here? Yeah. Yeah, I believe I am. I've always been really curious, you know, even as a child, I was always sort of like looking for things or finding things like little treasures. And also like, you know, before my birthday, I would just try to look for my gift or even for my brother and sisters. So I've been really, really curious all my life, actually. And I think it started like, well like I said as a child growing up and but I've always sort of liked to see if there are other things or if things could go a little bit different than everybody else was doing it because I thought well you know I I know that I seen that and maybe there's more so every time and and I I just sometimes also a bit tiring because you're always looking for stuff but um No, I really, I really liked that. And yeah, it started like when, when I finished school, I think that was a bit of a drag, but you know, when I, Then at a certain point, I thought, okay, let's do something. I went for jobs and they weren't really fulfilling. So I decided to go to the U.S. as a nanny for a year. And I thought, let's try that. And it was fun. It was really a lot of fun. But it also gave me sort of an insight, okay, I need to do something else with my life. And then I went back to school, did HR, because I thought, okay, I think I have some sort of There's something there. So I went for that. And you know, that was also a funny thing because when I finished my study, I was like, okay, so what am I going to do next? And I remember I visited a friend. He was working for Cirque du Soleil. And I thought, well, maybe I'm just going to work for Cirque du Soleil without any thought or reason whatsoever. And it just happened, you know, I was offered the job and I'm like, okay, let's do this. And, you know, I remember my first working day standing at a premier party in Zurich, in Switzerland. And it was my first working day. And I'm like, I can get used to this. So that was really fun. And, you know, sometimes I forget this, but I think in general, I get the feeling like if you are open and curious, there's so much more possible or there's so many things possible that even, you know, surprises you or amazes you. So that's what I really, really like. And I think that's sort of, maybe it's in my DNA, I don't know. But it feels like a natural thing for me to always be curious and to see what else is there or, you know, what else is possible or to be playful. Yeah, that's that, I think. And it gives me also lots of energy. How's that for you? Yeah, I agree. I... I think there seems to be this sort of Ariadne thread that runs through the tapestry of all the people I've been talking to. And it is this idea of the curious mind, this idea of, the question, why, I wonder why that is, why, why is that? And then the inner explorer begins to take over and we just start sailing out into the sea of unknown and trying to figure things out. And it's so interesting to get to hear people's stories and how they traveled out in the external world. And then it seems like on some level, the trip into inner space, which through psychedelics, or maybe it's breath work or everyone, there's lots of different ways in order to investigate the, the inner terrain, but, I think those two things are connected, right? The outer and the inner, like we're searching for stuff. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, and I think what you said about searching or sort of sailing in the unknown, I love that. But, you know, the thing is, and that is also that I see in myself, is that we tend to, our brain is so much focused on predicting and is so scared to just jump or to see what comes up. And I mean, I have the same, of course. Yeah. Um, but I also notice if I'm able to sort of let that go and to trust, you know, it's like sort of. laying on your back and in the, in the ocean and, and sort of floats and see what, what, what shows up, but it's, it's, it can be really scary for people. And I mean, I see that of course, in psychedelic journeys, it's also sort of like, okay, let's, let's fall, let, let, let yourself fall back backwards and, and just sort of trust that there's something there. And even if there's nothing there to see what happens. Yeah. One of my, One of the ways in which I fell in love with psychedelics was this feeling of being out of control and it being okay. It all makes sense. I can't explain it, but it all makes sense. There's a certain sort of freedom that comes from seeing the doors of perceptions cleansed in a way. You know what I mean by that? Like, is that too abstract? No, no, it's not. And you know, it moves me when you talk about it like that, because it straight away gives me that feeling like, yes, that's it, that's it. It's like, we're so used to think about all sorts of stuff, you know, like, okay, is this right? Or how do I feel about this? Even during a psychedelic journey. But I also feel sometimes that I'm in that space like you were talking about and I'm like okay so I need to sort all these things out and then it's like there's nothing to sort out because it's all fine yeah and you know then it's sort and it feels like sort of a calmness coming over you like it's all good mm-hmm And that space I find, I mean, of course, I'm also in spaces that are like bumpy or roller coasters or things like that. But I think that for me, there's always a place to go and to sort of be there with yourself, trust yourself and feel it's okay. And what I really like, and you said it also in the introduction about potential, because I'm a big fan of looking at your potential. And because, you know, what happens in psychedelic journeys, I'm sorry, you know, I'm jumping right into it. Yeah, beautiful. It's like what I really find. very interesting is that in in general life people focus constantly on on what what is not possible or what's blocking them or they know exactly what it looks like what it feels like you know it's like they're living that part and that's why things are not moving So they're focused so much on that blockage. And with the psychedelic journey, and of course, you know, it's not always like that, but it is possible to look beyond and to get a sort of a look and feel of what it can be like. But then, you know, at least, so that's what I always do before a psychedelic journey. I invite people to think about, okay, so you do know already what's not working. What would you like? to look at or you know what would you like it to be so what's your dream what's what's what would you like and and most of the time they're not even huge things but you know more sort of like a personality thing or they you know they I want to be more open or I want to be more curious or I want to be better connected to my feelings and my emotions and and and then I sort of try to ask them to Get a visual or get a feeling for that. And then it's possible. And that's why I think that's such a beautiful part of working with psychedelics. Because then it makes it so much easier to do something with that feeling. And when you're out of that journey, to also know, okay, I can do this. Right. Or, you know, this is what I really like. And sometimes it's not so much in, it's not in materials, but it's much more in, I want to feel this way. I want to feel happy. Or I want to feel confident. Or I want to enjoy life more. You know, that sort of stuff. And if I get the opportunity to be there and to support someone in that, every time I'm like, I'm amazed. And I also, I feel humble and honored is not the right word, but especially humble that I'm able to be part of that and to hold the space for someone and give this person the opportunity to go beyond and to see what's possible. It's like, that's magic. That's beauty. That's love. I can go on. You know what it feels like. It almost sounds like... First off, that was a lovely description. I love the way in which you explained that. And as you were talking about it, I got this vision of being the intermediary, like the person... If someone comes to you, it's like you're introducing them to themselves in a way. You know what I mean? To a part of them they haven't met for a while or maybe they've forgotten about. When you talk about potential, it sounds to me like you are reintroducing someone to themselves in a way in which they haven't seen themselves in a long time. Yeah. And, you know, sometimes people, when they hear potential, maybe they confuse it with ambition or material. Yeah. And that's not for me. That's not the case. I mean, so it's really nice that you emphasize that, that it is like having a look at yourself. Yeah. with all different aspects. And it could be, you know, it could be bliss, it could be love, it could be stars and rainbows, but it could also be pain or sadness or some dark parts that were sort of Became a part of you. During your childhood. And you know. I think it's such a beauty. To look at all parts. And to give them also space. To show up. Even if it's really scary. And difficult. But to at least have a look at it. Like what is this? And during the years. I'm supporting people. During a psychedelic journey. I often think. or get the feeling that it's most important that these parts are seen and that we, when we accept those parts, you know, instead of fighting it or like trying to suppress them, sort of accepting, hey, okay, that's also a part of me. Maybe I'm not too thrilled about it, but hey, and I think, Yeah, so like you get to know yourself in a better way or in an expanded way. But I really believe that the beauty is in accepting and seeing those parts. And especially like some people are scared to face their fears. A lot of people. Of course, yeah. And what I... do during a psychedelic journey is ask them to when when especially sometimes I also work with mdma and psilocybin because then first it's easier to talk about certain stuff you know you'll be able to connect with the emotions so for example when when it's easier to describe it but you know that's also sometimes possible with psilocybin is to really look from a distance and say, okay, so this is the fear. What do you see? Or what do you feel? What does it look like? Because instead of standing from a distance, you're facing it. So you get a better understanding because this part also wants to be seen. And the amazing thing is when you've seen it, then usually you think, what is this? You know, why? Am I so afraid of it? So we created something in our mind and made it so big or in our mind or maybe even in our subconscious. But there it sits in, we're suppressing it. So when you see it, and then people are like, actually, it's not such a big deal because it's just parts of feeling. And so I really ask them to stick with it, you know, stand strong and look at it. And the mistake people sometimes make is that they lose themselves in it. And like Joe Dispenza said, you know, if you sit in a jar, you can't read the label. And I think it's exactly the same also with fears, but you know, like, like you said, it's like getting to know yourself in all different aspects. And I think knowing who you are and accepting who you are and I'm, you know, maybe there's always work, there's always work to do. Uh, but I think by getting to know yourself better, I think life becomes easier. Yeah. How is that for you? What's your experience after your psychedelic journeys? Yeah, I echo that. I think that for me on my personal journeys, like I've I have been able to go back and forgive myself. It's almost in a third. I love the term awareness because you're for me. And I think a lot of people, I don't know about other people. I know about me. So it seems to me that you can go back and revisit emotionally charged times in your life and you can visit them without shame. You can visit them without judgment and you it's in that moment that you go oh I was just a kid man I i didn't know any better hey that guy you know or or like things happen and you're like wait a minute You know why my parents didn't do anything? Because they were scared. They didn't know what to do. It wasn't they were mad at me. They didn't know what to do. And in those moments, something frees up in you. It's like that thing that you have held down for so long, like the monster in your closet. You're like, keep that thing shut. You realize it's just me. It's me making it. I made it worse. Just look at it. And there's something to be said when you're forced to look at something. and no judgment just stare at it and there's a weird sort of awareness that happens in these journeys and this and these things that happen where you just sit with it and eventually it fades and it and with it fades the shame with it fades the guilt and there's room to grow now there that's what it seems like what do you think yeah no absolutely like Guilt can be a big thing. But yeah, it's like sit with it or look at it and sort of accept. Like you were saying also, you get a better understanding of, why things happened or why you were saying about your parents or, yeah. What I find interesting is that you get like, you know, the psilocybin sort of makes your normal thinking patterns less active and that you get sort of a view from a different angle on topics in your life. And that gives like nice insights of, okay, this is why I'm doing this or, uh, or, or becoming more aware of my own behavior or looking at like my family or, um, yeah, it gave me a lot of, um, um, sort of, um, step back and look at myself and, and learn from that. Um, and like what I hear you saying as well as to be okay with it, you know, to say, Yeah, they did their best. What I saw also is that you were able to see some sort of topic or element that has been part of the family. Yeah. So that you're able to sort of understand why things were happening this way or why am I doing this? And while you face it, I have the feeling you were able to break it, you know, to, to break that sort of pattern or theme or that, that is part of the family that you're able to say, Hey, okay, I see that this was happening. People were not able to, I mean, they just carried on and they, their father was doing it and, and, or her mother, whatever. And so to say, okay, so that is for me the key, I think, with psychedelic journeys is to become aware of what happened or what is there and to be okay with it. And that last part is not so easy, I should say. I mean, you know, one time it's like, okay, you know, I've seen it. Because that's also a question I often get like, okay, so when I do this journey and I get all these insights, do I change afterwards? And sometimes people are kind of scared, you know, that their partner is sort of like, okay, what can I expect when somebody comes back home again? Yeah. Yeah, and so it's not like when you do, and I'm sure you talked about this before, but what I've seen is that when you do a psychedelic journey, you sort of like create a new connection, like a new pathway or a new way of thinking. But that little path was only walked once during that psychedelic journey. And so when you get out of the journey, I believe it's important to maintain it if you want, if you really want it, to maintain it by... staying close to yourself and to take good care of yourself, but also to think, okay, so I got this insight. I want to do things differently. Let's make sure I do that. Yeah. Yeah. It seems to me that for my personal uses, I'll do like a big dose and then I'll follow it up with micro doses for like, I'll do, I don't know, seven grams or something like that. And then follow that up for the next three months with micro doses and then do like another big dose. But I think that that micro dose allows you to remain familiar with the environment, you know, and you can still have time to integrate those big changes that happen. I want to dive back. Sometimes you said that the spouse or the partner will be like, what's going to happen to them when they come back? What is it like to deal with a team that comes to you? Obviously, they're working on things and you've seen patterns, but what is it like to work with people on these substances, Marika? That's something I don't know about, but I think a lot of my listeners are curious to understand a little bit about this sort of intricate intimate relationship with which you're holding this space for these people like that's a pretty incredible position to be in and with with that comes a lot of responsibility right yeah Yeah, so, well, when I work with a group of people, and I must say, when they meet each other, it's not that they know each other. So, because I tried that before with teams, and I'm not so sure about that. So, I think it's important that people feel really, and I should also say, I've also had some small groups of friends and they knew but they felt really comfortable with each other so I most important is that people feel okay with each other um and and in a way sometimes it's helpful if somebody doesn't know the other person um maybe just from meeting but it's funny that most of the time all the like work uh you know what kind of work people do it's not important. So when people come here, they've seen each other online once, um, and they know a little bit like where they're from and, you know, do they have a partner and things like that, but for the rest, it's not so important. And the funny thing is that if they come here for a weekend, like a three day retreat, um, They get to know each other really, really well, but they have no clue what somebody's job is, for example, because that's not important. Yeah. And they're talking about stuff that is... like the core, you know, it's like most important. It's like being and, and, and things like that. Um, and so what I do with a group is when they come here, they get to know each other a little bit. So, uh, they introduce themselves a bit better and then they, um, and I always ask them like, what do you want to get out of this? What brought you here? What is what you want to look at? Um, because I think the intention of, of a journey is really important and you know, It's important. Yeah. Because I mean, there is like tons of things you can look at, but which, what is most important at that, at that time. And so what I do during a journey is, and I do this together with my partner, Eric, and most of the time we have another facilitator. So we're with the three of us and then we have like eight participants and And what we do is like, it starts for me that I feel, there's this little book, it's called The Gentle Art of Blessing. And so what I do is I bless in my mind, or I just want them to have a really insightful and valuable journey. And the reason why I mentioned this book is like, this writer is talking about feeling, sending out some sort of positive energy, like, you know, I really wish you well. And it doesn't matter if you do that with people on the street or whatsoever, but people feel that. And so this is what I also do with the journey. When we start the journey, I really wish them a well and valuable journey. And the people that I work with do the same. So people feel that. I believe. And, and so, and what we do is we create, and I talk to everyone prior to attending a retreat. So I have an idea like what, what's happening or what's their fear or what, What do they need when they're really scared? And so during the journey, if somebody is going through a difficult time, we just sit next to them and make sure that we send out some sort of positive, calm energy because we're holding the space. And that's what we tell people also prior to the journey. Like, we know that you can do this. Most important thing is trust yourself, stick to it. Even if you lose yourself a bit, you can always sort of steer back to your intention and focus on that. And we also explain them how you can sort of navigate. And it's a bit funny, like I'm telling them, Like if it's going too fast, just ask the medicine or the mushroom or the truffle, please be gentle or let's slow down or let's move a bit faster. And so within the group, everybody of course is a bit nervous, but they all feel safe. And I also check in with them. Is there anything you need from the group? so for example we also say we start as a group and we finish as a group so if somebody needs to go outside because we do the ceremony in the yurt so if somebody needs to step out or wants to be outside for a while it's all fine and we will be with you the only thing is we will ask you to go back at a certain point because the group will miss you because it's really like a group process and Also for us, I mean, facilitating for me, I speak for myself, but that I also sometimes, if somebody is going through a process, I can sometimes feel it's sort of like mirrors something or sort of triggers something in me. So that's why I believe that it's really important for facilitators also to journey and do psychedelic journeys themselves because we all have our stuff. And so what is really important for me is to recognize, okay, this is something for me. And I'm able to say, let's park this because today I'm here to support others and hold the space for them. And, you know, the interesting thing is that most of the time people say prior, like, oh, I'm scared to do this in a group because maybe somebody next to me is making lots of noise or is going to cry really loud. And the interesting thing is most of the time during the journey, it's all fine. And if somebody starts crying, then somebody else will sort of hold the space as well, or it triggers something and the other person starts crying too. And that's all fine. So in a group, people feel it's important that they feel safe and we do this as a team, but we also make sure that they sort of connect a little bit with each other because they're sort of starting a group process. So they speak out their intention and at the end of the journey, we also give them the opportunity to share a little bit about their journey. whatever they want. And sometimes people connect really well with each other afterwards. And sometimes people feel like, wow, you know, a lot of things happened. I need some time for myself. So we also say, don't feel obligated to be socially obliged to talk to each other. You know, take the space, take the freedom for yourself and everybody's fine with that. So it's like a sort of, like I'm constantly with my hands like this, but it's like holding the space, but I feel a group is doing the same. And I must say, every group is different. Like sometimes there's a group they're like completely happy afterwards and they're like almost friends for life. And other groups, they're more like on their own and on the individual more focused. But yeah, and like two weeks ago, we had two couples and they were friends. And I can also imagine doing this with people you know, it also makes it really special. I can imagine that, or that's what I see, that the friendship can even be much stronger because you met each other on a different level, especially afterwards. You know, you talk about other stuff and it's a bit like you were saying it as well. Like when you're in a psychedelic journey, everything else sort of, you know, you sort of fall back and everything is fine. And that can be also with friends that you think, yeah, you know, we're good. We connect. It's so beautiful to hear. I'm so curious about the relationships. When you talk about groups, in my mind, when I think of a group coming together and taking this particular journey into a different state of awareness for a long period of time I'm reminded of like the elusinian mysteries where people strangers are just coming together and they are embarking on this new way of seeing themselves and the relationship in the world are there time at your retreat or when you guys work Is it ever tailored like this is a rite of passage between father and son, this group, or it's a couple's group, or it's a men's group, or it's a woman's group? Do you ever break it down in that format, or is it just basically whoever decides to come? Yeah. It's different. Like most retreats we do are open for everyone. And so it's men, women, it doesn't matter. And then sometimes also we have people who ask, can we come as a group or can we come over or can we join or can we create something? So then we make something. And I also organized on International Women's Day a ceremony with only women. And I really liked that, too, because there's like a different energy. And also to do that on that day. And so, for example, we do it also with winter solstice. So we journey in the night. So usually we do during the day. But on that day or night, we do it in the night. And we do it with a group of people who journeyed here before. And we ask them, like, hey, do you want to do a journey together? We're going to do it with summer sausage as well. So we really like to sort of connect it with nature. But, yeah, so it's different. It varies. And... I also see that we create something together. I also wanted to say to you that we focus a bit on a group of people who are not so used to psychedelics. And, um, so I have the feeling in the world, there's a whole group of people who know this already for a long, long time, you know, and, and now they see that everybody sort of becomes sort of mainstream and, you know, popular to microdose and to, to all do these things, which is, I think a good thing. Um, But so what we like, like you said in the introduction, I have experience in the corporate world. I worked there for a long time and I believe that there's a big need or desire. Yeah. for that group of people to explore themselves in a different way. And so that's why we also focused in, um, because you have lots of organizations in the Netherlands who do this, you know, you have, and there's like, you, you can do it for probably 50 euros or four or 5,000. And, um, we're a bit in the middle and, uh, but we wanted to create this for people who, want to get to know themselves better, but in a different way, and who are not so familiar with spiritual practices. So for them, it's like, When they hear about this, then they think, oh, maybe I need to jump through all sort of spiritual hoops. And, you know, I'm not aware of that or I don't know any. I'm not into this at all, but I'm curious. So that's why we try to have a bit of a... I'm not sure if it's different, but to... Like when I started doing this, I noticed looking on the Internet, I saw lots of organizations, but nobody showed their face. So it was sort of like, OK, this is what we do. But you could not read like who's doing this? Who is this person? And so I wanted to make sure that it becomes more clear. normal to work on yourself by doing this. And, um, um, and, you know, on LinkedIn, it, it, it was in the beginning, I sort of let, uh, likes and, and, and, and that sort of stuff. I just let it completely go because, um, it's still kind of, uh, you know, still lots of people find it still like, Oh, what is this? Or, um, they're not aware of it or, uh, And I really would like to make sure that people see this as another way of working on yourself. It's not a training in, I don't know, like management drives or whatever, or... all that sort of stuff, you know, like communication skills or... But it is in a way about personal leadership, but maybe that term is a little bit used for many things. So I like what you said, like getting to know yourself in all aspects and to sort of embrace... all the elements in you but also to make better use of your qualities because people most of the time sort of tell themselves oh this is not for me or and why not if you really want it and and that's that's what I think is a beautiful thing of a psychedelic journey yeah So anyway, I mean, it's a long answer on your question, but it's all sort of side turns. Sorry. But yeah. So your question was like why people or people do sign up. I can't remember anymore, but I hope it answered. Yeah, of course. I'm just curious about the different people that come there and it, I couldn't agree more that corporate America or the corporate world itself is in dire need of taking a good look at itself and trying to understand how to move forward from here. Like for so long, it seems that we have lived in this world of Growth at all costs and profit beyond that. And I think there's something to be said about psychedelics and identity and who you are. And especially if you're the face of a corporate world or something like that, a face in the corporate world. you have to, you should be responsible for the people that work under you on some level, right? Like it should almost, you should almost have to really know yourself as a person. Like if you, and this is just me kind of just throwing this out here, but I think if you're going to call yourself a leader and you are a manager or a leader, then you should have to do some psychedelic training. You should have to know who you are before you start telling other people what to do, because you, it's very easy to get lost in the power and the corruption there. But I think the psychedelic journey has the ability to pull you back from that ego trip and be like, wait a minute, I'm actually supposed to be helping these people, not bossing them around, telling them how, you know, giving them their identity. But I don't know. It's just my kind of thinking. Yeah. No, no, no. I agree. Um, So, you know, I, I, I'm a big fan of, of making like you, what you see nowadays in organizations is that people get a budget for, uh, personal development. Um, let's say in, in the bigger companies and, um, And I would say make a psychedelic journey part of that. And I can imagine, of course, people would say, oh, but what about all the risks and that sort of stuff? But you could also do like a lower dose. And like, well, we also do a medium dose. And that could be really, really helpful. And then you're not like... uh out of in a different dimension but you're able to explore yourself in a in a in a in a much easier way but yeah I i totally agree I find it I mean in a way you know there are in companies there's like yoga and meditation I mean we're getting there But still, I believe it's important to pay much more attention to it. And, you know, I see a psychedelic journey also as mental wellness. Yeah. Because we're constantly behind our screens with our phones. So your brain is constantly overwhelmed with all sorts of information. We constantly need to see this, do this, etc. And what happens with a psychedelic journey is that everything sort of stands still. You're able to clear your mind, um, to connect again and you just see, feel, um, uh, and think much clearer. And, um, Yeah, so I think it's also for that really important for people and also in corporate, especially in corporate environments. Because, you know, in that other whole field of people, they already know how to work with psychedelics. They know. And maybe, you know, in the, in the, in the future is that people just do it themselves or maybe there are different ways of maybe online that they, they can get a guide or whatsoever. I don't know, maybe in the, in the, somewhere future, but yeah. So, because also when people come here and they've been here a couple of times and, usually it starts with a one-on-one individual journey because they're sort of afraid to journey in a group and then they're sort of curious like maybe I do like to get to meet more people who are doing this and then they journey in a group but that's a what I wanted to say anyway so they get to know how it works and yeah I sort of lost it, sorry. No, it's all good. it brings up an interesting question that as someone like yourself that travels and speaks multiple languages, do you think that where you decide to journey, there's different aspects of the journey? Like, is it different to have a psychedelic journey in say California or the United States versus in the Netherlands? Like what would be some of the similarities and differences or is there a cultural weight that sits on you and that there's different problems because of that or. What do you think? Well, I think like, you know, I hear people talking about going to the jungle and do an ayahuasca week. I think it's very personal for people to decide where to go. Because I also believe that they are attracted or they feel some sort of attraction like doing it there or learning from a shaman. or finding it more interesting to do it in a certain way, like a shamanic ceremony. I think even in the Netherlands, you have all different styles. So I don't believe that much. I mean, I don't really know, actually, to see if the culture plays a role as well. I don't know. But I do believe that most important is that you feel that it feels right. So that means like when you look at somebody's website, if it feels right, if it attracts you to travel to another country and to do a journey there. So I think most important is follow your feeling because then it's right. And for like, if it could influence, I think, you know, if it's a more shamanic way of doing it, that has a certain impact as well. And I must say, when I journeyed before we started our own business, we went to all different organizations to get some experience and to see how are they doing it and how does this feel for me? I one time was at an organization And the group was pretty big. We're like, I don't know, 25 people. Also the facility, for me, nature is really important part to be able to connect to during a psychedelic journey or after or before, you know, I need nature. And there was no nature. It was like in some sort of suburb with houses around it. And there was just sort of like a porch. Anyway, there was no nature. And so for me, it didn't really feel right. And it was ayahuasca. And I just took one cup and I was like, this is it. I cannot go any further because I just didn't feel completely safe. And it all went fine. And I mean, there was no problem at all. But for me, it was like, okay, this place, for me, it's important to be in nature. So these kinds of things could help like looking at an organization and see this is for me. And if that's in the Netherlands or in California or in Costa Rica, I mean, that's personal. Yeah. I can also imagine if somebody has some sort of special connection, like with a country, yeah, then I would say go for it. But to me, I must say the jungle, it doesn't really attract me that much. To be honest, I'm really much more like a comfortable journeyer and it's not that I need to go business class, but yeah, I think I like to have some nice comfort and soft materials and nature and that's how we build our place also. So we picked everything that we really liked. And so I wanted to, if somebody walks into our facility, I want this person to feel like, okay, I feel safe here or I feel comfortable here. And we try this or we do this in all different aspects. So, but, you know, if you're more adventurous and you think, oh, I would love to learn from somebody who has done this in his whole family and, you know, like his family, is a shaman and with all the rituals, because I think rituals are also all playing a part in the journey. And if somebody really likes that, I would say, follow that feeling. That's most important, I think. What do you like to journey? What is important for you during a journey? I'm a big fan of the solo journey at my house when everyone's sleeping. Like I just, for me, it's comfortable. I know I'm be safe and like I have all my, my comforts here. And, and I agree. I think that some people enjoy the ride and they, they want to be, you know, in the depths or the belly of the beast. And everybody has their own, like you said, everybody has their own adventure. Everyone is called to a certain place and you should, it's romantic, it's beautiful. And I find it so funny though, because on some level, Like, I don't want to be, I don't want to have to, like, be tripping my balls off and go outside and make a right at the guy with the M16 and all these mosquito bites on me. Like, I don't want that. Like, that's too much, you know? And on the other hand, like, I definitely don't want to be in a house with a bunch of strangers I don't know and feel cooped up in there. And the truth is too, at a large enough dose, the environment doesn't really matter because all of that's fallen away. If you start taking some pretty big doses, you could be in the jungle in your bedroom. You know what I mean? You watch out for the tiger, it's coming. Like that's how I like to go. I like to go, I like to take big doses and just live different lifetimes. You know, there's something so incredible on a large dose that allows you to see the decisions that you didn't make and see how they turned out you know look in the mirror and look at different versions of yourself and be like whoa that was me a thousand years ago or whoa that's a different version of me doesn't even look like me next thing you know you've been standing and looking in the mirror for like an hour what are you doing oh it's funny Yeah, I love those journeys. And I think there's so much to be said. There's so much learning that you can do if you're willing to face the uncertainty, the fear, and have a good sense of humor about it. Because it gets scary sometimes, right? Like, I know for me, I'm like, oh, I can't believe I did that. Man, I am such a dummy. Why did I do that? You know, I heard a good quote one time in I wish I could name the person that was talking about it, but it was a Western doctor and he was talking to a gentleman from South America. And the guy from South America says, you know, the difference is that in the West, your drugs make you feel good and then you feel bad. Our drugs make us feel bad and then make us feel good afterwards. Right? Yeah. You're right. Yeah. Well, and it's interesting what you say about the high dose. I mean, I like low doses. What's a low dose? Low dose is for me, or maybe it's medium dose, like 10 grams of truffles. Okay. That sounds like a big dose. What is truffles to say? Oh, let's say one gram of dried mushrooms. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or 1.2. Okay. Or 1.5, something like that. Yeah. I love it because, you know, it's not too long and I'm able to, I don't need to sort of fly all the way out. I don't need that. And I think that I cannot find that much there. But when I stay a bit closer, I get the feeling like, okay. And I must say, I also really like two journeys in a row. So that's what we also do in our retreats. First, we do a lower dose. So what I just mentioned, like the 1.5 dose. And then the next day we do truffles. So then we do, let's say, 30 gram of truffles. So let's say three grams of mushrooms. And, you know, what I what I like also personally is that with the first one, you get sort of the stuff out of the way, you know, the clutter, the daily. Yeah. not important stuff. And then, and then the next day you'll be, you know, that's cleared and you can go deeper. And, but I must also say the other day I did one higher dose of, let's say three grams of mushrooms. And then the next day I did a lower one. Right. And that was also really, really helpful. So for me, it doesn't really have to be that high, such a high dose. I mean, you could also do with lower. And I also liked what you said about continuing with a microdose because that keeps you... it sort of helps to continue walking that new created path and, and, and implement it or make it a sort of a new pattern. Yeah. Helpful. But yeah, Yeah, I like those medium, we call it medium doses, but I like that too. It's really, it's not so hard on your body. It's a bit shorter, but it also gives you really nice, yeah, understanding, sort of like clears your mind. And yeah, so, and, and, you know, it's, it's so psilocybin is really my thing and I really want to use this to, to create. And I, I, I was, I was looking at, at your profile on LinkedIn and, and, you know, reading about you. What I really like with, with psilocybin is to sort of create a wave of positive energy, like you were saying. It's like a part. And if we're doing this all together or, you know, everybody's working on themselves. And of course, it doesn't have to be with psilocybin. But if people come to us, then we use psilocybin to create a bigger wave of positive energy or to create good things in this world. And that's really my goal. And to let people reconnect with who they want to be. Because that's it, you know, we can create who we want to be. We don't have to. sort of like just follow the stream of what's happening and what's thrown at us that we say oh okay I need to do something with this okay I'll I'll do that we can make choices and to be so more aware of what we want yeah so that that's something I i really want that's my my vision I think you're acting it out I think that you're you are There's that old saying that says, when you're ready, the teacher will show up. And it seems to me like you are the teacher that's showing up for lots of people. You know, it must... Sometimes it seems to me... The way we move this ball forward and make the planet better is by all of us becoming the best versions of ourselves. And when someone comes to meet with you or to a retreat center somewhere and they do their own work and they go back into the community, it's almost like they're bringing water back and helping the people like that. Right. Yeah, I like that. And, you know, I just play a small role in this. I mean, every time when people come here, I feel, well, not honored because I don't want to use that word, but I feel humble and really... thankful that they trust us give us the trust to be there and to be a part of it and I see them as playing a big role in this because they are doing work on themselves and when I'm in that position of journeying then I do that for myself and when you are journeying you're doing your part Beautiful, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, that makes me wonder. On some level, I... It seems like the headlines are so clogged up with, like, medicinal use for certain types of ailments or, you know, sometimes there's a lot of headlines about inappropriate behavior and the people that... It always seems to me that the people... Lots of people have lots of problems. And I almost think it's irresponsible for an individual to think they can help another person solve their problems. Only the individual can solve their problem. You know what I mean? And I think that's where a lot of the... Because we run into problems when the facilitator is like, I'm going to help you out. I'm going to fix this for you. Like, no, you're not. You're not going to help them. Like, you're there to watch the medicine work, it seems like. Yeah, that's it. Right? Totally agree. Absolutely. I read this book. It was called Swimming in the Sacred. Beautiful book. I can't wait to check it out. I don't, I can't remember the author, but beautiful book. And she mentioned that. That's why I don't really like the word healer because we're healing ourselves and, and plants can help us with that. And that's it. So I'm, not playing any role I mean I'm playing the role of making sure that when somebody's coming over to do a journey that they feel safe and and and I sort of that's what I tell them like if you see me know that I'm from planet earth And, you know, I'm making sure that you feel safe so that you can explore, you can dive in, you can explore, and I hold the space for you so that you feel safe. That's all I do. And in a way, I think that's what I wanted to say earlier, is that if people have done this for a couple of times, at a certain point, I think they can do it themselves. And I would say... go you know if you create a nice space for yourself maybe with a friend or somebody you trust take a lower dose you know don't go too high and and maybe try first um I don't know one one gram of mushroom or even lower um but you know you have experience you know how to navigate you know what it feels like when you start work when it starts working uh so you're familiar with it, then you can do it yourself. But, you know, you need to have some experience. You need to be okay. No, like, issues in, like, mental issues in the family or taking medication or no mixing with other drugs. But, you know, if you follow those lines, then you can do it yourself. And then... you don't need anybody like me. And I think that's, because I really like, I think I'm sometimes also a bit worried that, you know, we get also lots of good reviews, good feedback from people. They're like, oh, you know, you helped me in such a great way. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Yeah. And, but, you know, sometimes you get the feeling like, oh, you know, I did really great. And because that's my ego. And I need to make sure that my EO knows where to stay. And of course, sometimes I let that play and run around like, oh, yeah. And then I'm like, okay, that's enough now. You know how it goes. And yeah, so, and that's fine. But people are doing it themselves. Yeah. And I don't want to take any other position than, I always like to sit on the ground when people are doing a journey with the mattress on the floor. Yeah. Sit on the ground. And I don't want to step up or whatsoever. That's not up to me because it's them. Everybody is able to do it themselves. Much more powerful. Yeah. way more powerful. I think that speaks volumes of who you are as a person, that last piece that you said right there. It's so important that people understand that. I love the metaphor of exploring the environment. I hate to start off a little bit, figure this thing out a little bit, and then you figure out what's right for you. The more you know it, the more familiar you become with the environment. Maybe you want to go up on the right, maybe you want to go up on the left, but you know, eventually you'll figure it out, but you, in the beginning it's, it's, you need someone to kind of show you the ropes, but after that, everybody's got the same tools, you know, everybody's got the same, the same, well, maybe not the same, but it's, it's for, it's for the individual to explore. And yeah, it's, it's beautiful. I think. Yeah. And you know, if you trust yourself, I think it always comes back to yourself. Yeah. stand firmly, stay with that trust, then lots of things are possible. Yeah. It's such a solo experience. You know, like you are getting to meet maybe your higher self or reintroduce to yourself on some level. And when you come out of it, isn't it interesting? The better relationship you have with yourself, the better relationships you can have with other people. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Well, and I think in general, the better relationship you have with yourself, and I wouldn't say like ego area, but more in accepting all parts of yourself. Yeah. And maybe it's ideal, but sometimes I get the feeling like, okay, Maybe, you know, when we all accept ourselves, then we die. I don't know. But I think, you know, that's what I also see with monks. When I hear them talk, I'm like, there's so much peacefulness, or I don't know the right word, or calmness, or... And I love that. And then I think maybe that's our goal. I don't know if that's our goal. But yeah, I also have it when I feel like that. Like, for example, if I just come out of a psychedelic journey and I feel really like at peace with myself, then everything is sort of, okay and you know falls in place and and and then I know also what really is important to me I think that's also something yeah what really matters to me that's yeah yeah I couldn't agree more it's Do you think we're at a sort of a precipice? Like, it seems to me that it's really taken off, the idea of microdosing and psychedelics and entheogens. Maybe it's the circle that we run in, and maybe because we really are familiar with it and we enjoy it and we see the positivity in our daily lives. But do you think that it's beginning to expand at a rate that is... I can't think of the right word, but do you think that this wave of psychedelics is expanding because our society is in dire need of it? Yes, I believe so. Yes. Well, you know, I think we're on the right way to get that wave going and to expand it. And that's what I also see with the people who come here, because all the people who know this already, they've figured it out already. But the other ones, and I wouldn't say, I want to avoid to say this is good and this is bad. Yeah, right. Because that I find also is scary. And I noticed with myself as well that I'm like, oh, I've changed. And then I'm looking at others and, you know, sort of like being judgmental. And that's not what I believe because... One person goes faster than the other one. I also see people that I think, wow, you're such an inspiration. And sharing this with the world, I find this with you as well. You're inspirational with all your energy, but also with what you want to show to other people and what they can learn from you and connect them with other people. But there are also people who... are struggling with this, who are on a slower pace and because of what happened in their family line. And that's what I really like about the people who come here because it's so new to them, not all of them, but some of them, it's so new to them that you're sort of like opening a little door of like, hey, this is possible as well. Hey, and I'm sort of connecting with my emotions again. Wow. You know, this feels really, really good. Yeah. So... do every I'm not sure if if if everybody should be on psychedelics to to create that you know that goal or to move into that direction um because for some people it really attracts to do psychedelics and and and when they do it for the first time they're like yes you know and I had the same when I did this for the first time I thought yes this is for me yeah but there are also people who say you know I'm completely fine with meditation or I'm completely fine with breath work or or walking I don't know all sorts of things can you know everybody picks their own I believe that becoming aware of what else is there because we got so far away, you know, with all the material stuff and all the things we think, you know, and also, I mean, with all social media, it's, it's a great thing because that's how we met. Um, and that's really nice, you know, and we're able to learn from each other and to connect with each other. Um, but it can also be used for other stuff like distracting and, and, or distraction. Um, So what the goal is, I hope we're just a movement, movement in like taking better care of nature, to be more aware, to connect, to face our maybe traumas in the family, to deal with that and to heal ourselves. That one, that's an important one too. Yeah, so I believe, and you know, by talking about it, Gives me a good feeling. Like, yeah, I really believe that this is something, this is our goal. This is something we need to do. How do you see that? I love it. It reminds me, you know, I went ice skating with my daughter last week and I'm not that great of an ice skater. I can, I can stand up and I kind of shuffle across the ice a little bit and like, I'm getting better. And I remember I was, I, um, I was standing by the side and I was watching my daughter. She's way better than me and her friend are skating. They're going backwards. And I just looked around the ice and there was old people, young people, heavy people, skinny people, all colors. And like some people were really fast and some people were really slow. I started laughing. I'm like, dude, this is our world. Some people are really young and talented. Some people are like me and old and keep falling down. It's just such a good metaphor. I just look at the eyes of all of us just trying to do our best job. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's it. The secret's everywhere. You can see it everywhere in life if you just look. It's like, look, there it is. There we are. We're just doing it. And do you believe... Emma, I love what you say about, yeah, we're just doing it. We're just doing it. Yeah, we're doing our best. And do you believe that we have some sort of, I don't know, let's call it goal or life lesson in our lives? I think so, yeah. I think we are... I think we're becoming something collectively. I think we've just moved through this incredible phase of consumption, like a caterpillar. We're moving into something now. And if you look at the demographics alone, there's just such this enormous group of baby boomers that came before us. And as they're moving on to whatever comes next, you can see the next generation breaking through the detritus of old ideas, flexing their wing, trying to figure out, like, look at this thing. What is this universal basic income thing, you know? And, like, just testing these ideas of what is possible. And you can still hear, and on some level, you can see the unrealized dreams of those that are dying, just grasping, we got one more war in this, guys. Come on. Yeah. Like, dude, that's a horrible idea. But you can see us moving in that direction. And I think in theogens specifically, they reveal to us a wisdom that is for all of us, and it's there, and it's just revealed to you. If you think about the insights that you have had or perhaps some of the people that have come to you or people you've spoken to, there's these flashes of insight that are revealed to you, and you realize there are these universal truths like, oh, yeah, you know what? When I take part of this plant, it really helps me understand that I'm part of the whole. It's so weird that I could eat this vegetable, and then I feel like it's talking to me, telling me how to be a better person in the environment I'm in. It's almost like I'm taking part of this. It's just this thing we're moving into, and it's ineffable. Another thing is language, right? When you start... Taking these doses, whether it's one gram or a half a gram or high grams, you bump up against the ineffable. You can't explain it. There's no linguistic pathway, but you can see it. You can feel it. You can kind of act it out in a weird sort of way. That's the gravity that's pulling us towards it. We can't quite say it yet. We don't have a linguistic pathway, but we're definitely moving in that direction. And that's us as a whole. I do. I think we are... We... each individual is part of the whole. And though we live our lives sometimes as if we are individuals, we're not, we're just, we're all pulling our weight and pulling this thing, whatever it is into the next phase. Love it. Love it. Love it. I can listen to this for hours. Love it. Yeah. You know, and I, I remember also once during a psychedelic journey that I felt like, you know, I was walking around outside and I was like, we're just energy and we're just all part of it, you know, and nature is sort of, uh, uh, yeah, is, is surrounding us and, and giving us so much, but it's also sometimes thinking, Oh my God, you know, when, when are they going to get it? Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and you know, everybody in his own pace, of course, but yeah, I, I, I, I, totally it totally resonates with me what you were saying that and and the way you say it is like so you I believe it's so beautiful with so much energy uh but yeah absolutely we I believe that too that we're moving into a direction and um um and and I also believe in a way it's all you know especially when we look at at ourselves that everything is all there already The only thing is that we put so many layers on it, you know, by growing up, but also by people around us who are telling us that we should do it this way or this way, or we should have this, or we should look like this, or we should be like this. That that's all covering up what is already there. You know, we all have all these beautiful qualities and all this love and energy, beautiful energy in us. And I believe, so I'm wondering what do you think of that? But is that when we sort of get these layers off, it will really help us to move into that direction. You know, then we're going. Yeah. And maybe it sounds a bit abstract, but yeah, I truly believe that when you get to the core, when you get to your, your, your, true being or your, your true self, then that's it. And of course, maybe, you know, when people think, okay, so can I, do I have to be always my true self? Not sure if it's possible. I hope it is. I hope it is. But maybe that's sort of wishful thinking. I don't know. It could be that we're always, you know, because we built this ego and that it's always be there. maybe by taking these layers off that our ego becomes smaller. Yeah, I think that that could be something, that our ego becomes smaller and then our true self can be more present and become bigger. Maybe it's not so much in bigger and smaller, but well, for the ego, yes. Really nice talking to you, George. I love this. Yeah. We got a comment here that says, Oh, Ron, this one. Oh, it moved up. That's what happened here. It says, will the force overcome those folks trying to shape and alter the force? Yes. And, and who are those folks? What do you think? It's always them and they, right? And I think that them and they are us. They're just people that are clinging on to that which they need to live. I think I... Yeah, it's hard to... I'm a big fan of panning back and listening to all the stories about who could be controlling things and why they're controlling them. It's really fun, and I enjoy that. But at the end of the day, all you can really control is yourself. And a good way that I've found to do this too, and I think psychedelics help, is that everybody you see is just a different version of you. And when someone makes you really mad, you should... try to find out why they make you mad. Cause that's probably something you do. If you see everybody as a mirror, right? Like in the whole Jungian psychology of it, like it was like a mirror for you. What do you, is that, what do you think? Yeah, I think so too. Um, and, um, you know, I, I get the feeling that when, when there's a trigger that there's a lesson or, you know, there's sort of, um, something is happening like, oh, you need to learn something here. Yeah. But also what you said about with the question, I also believe that it did like, The world I am in is much more on focusing on individual growth. And I think certain parts in the world are so much more focused on the collective part. But I also believe like certain parts, so let's say they, I think they're also dealing with their growth. traumas and and you know power is is a is a big thing in certain with certain people um and um maybe they went through a lot of issues that their that their ego became so big that they're so much focused on okay this is right um so my my hope and my ideal ideal is that those people heal themselves as well at certain point. And maybe it's ritual thinking, but maybe like certain people are able to get away out of that situation or out of a situation that is toxic or not good for them. And they are able to move to a more individual part. And maybe it's just an individual part to be able to heal themselves. and then move into that force. Yeah, I find, I think it's a very interesting question or topic, but also difficult to give a straightforward answer to, I believe. But yeah, and then moving on to the triggers, absolutely, I think, and that's constantly, I think, in daily life, as soon as something is triggering you, then there is something to learn from. What I usually do, because I have that too, of course, what I do is try to step back a bit. And sometimes, you know, like I was saying, if you sit in a jar, you can't read the label. So I try to step back and think, okay, so what is annoying me right now? Or what does it say about me? Is it, you know, that I want that too? Or is it, do I feel not seen? Or... um what part in me is trying to get some attention that's I usually but you know sometimes things happen fast and then I'm already in into the reaction uh but what I try to do is to become more aware of like okay let's step back what's happening here yeah yeah I I'm I think it brings up the idea of language. And then NC Native says, he says, there are humans trying to shape how other humans think and do things. Are those controlling humans still part of the force moving towards a certain point? Or would you say they are fighting them? Here's what I would say, NC. I would say that language, the world is made of language. when you listen to the language that's put out in society in culture and think of the four the four first letters of the word culture it's a cult like we are living in this world that's an illusion it's made of language and there are tons of people desperately trying to control the narrative because when you control the narrative You can't control the world with which people live in. But each individual, this is what we were talking about earlier, and I think psilocybin and theogens and psychedelics can do this, is they allow you to break free of the linguistic programming that has been given to you for the 15 years you went to school. That's the default mode network. When we look at psychedelics, we see the default mode network is turned off in the brain. All this stuff, NC, all of these marketing... propaganda, all of this stuff you see, this is the default mode network at work. Hey, stay in this lane, buy this car, buy this house, get this job. You're nothing unless you have this, like that's the default mode network. And it's so interesting that we can see it in our lives. And we can also see it in neural feedback. When people take psilocybin or they take these different psychedelics, they see the default mode network shut off. And that allows you to make these new connections about like, you know what? I kind of think I am enough just being who I am. I kind of think that maybe I should quit my job and love my wife and kid more. I kind of think that maybe... I don't really don't need to have all of this excess consumption. And by the way, how can a, how can a business talk about being environmentally friendly and they have a business model built on excess consumption. That's kind of weird, you know, like, yeah, So, NC, my idea is that it's all linguistics, and there are people, and there always have been, there will continue to be people that try to control your story. But don't let them. You control your story. And psychedelics can be a profound game changer in there. And I think a lot of that... Problem people have is because they're listening to everyone else's story, right? Stop living other people's lives and stories and just take one baby step in yours and that step will fall away. It'll still be there. I mean, you can't get rid of it, but it'll fall away and be less meaningful. Well said, George. Yeah, absolutely. Well, anything else that you want to cover? I know I kind of went off on some tangents there, but yeah, got that going for us. Yeah, good, I think. Where can people find you? What do you have coming up and what are you excited about? So people can find me in the Netherlands. And our website is thematter.nl. And we're also on Instagram and LinkedIn. LinkedIn. So people can find me there. So my last name is Van der Spek. Difficult to pronounce maybe for people, but so there they can find me. What am I excited about is the, well, you know, it's summer is starting soon. And so I'm really excited about hosting a few retreats in the coming period. So we have one coming up next weekend. the end of July I'm also organizing a cannabis retreat in August for women so that will be really nice and I'm excited about more and more people are opening up into working on themselves with psilocybin and connecting with their true self again because You know, there's so much happening. There's so much going on that is distracting us for what is really important. So that's what I'm excited about. And, you know, like I said, and I love doing this, you know, being able to be a part of it. It's like magical, magical to see taking people steps to to move on or to. do what's really important for them or let go of certain patterns. And for me, that's like, I'm so not honored, but humble and really happy that I'm able to do this work. Yeah. And to introduce it to people and, and, you know, to spread also the word. I mean, that's it for me, you know, spread the word because this is like, Creating possibilities. I think it's, yeah, it's beautiful. I think you're good at it. And I think you have a... very unique way of understanding patterns. And just in our conversation today, I'm moved by your word choice about being humble and staying away from being honored. Like that's such a cool way to do it. I appreciate, thank you for doing that. That's a, I think it speaks volumes of your intentions. So thank you. Well, thank you. Thank you for mentioning that. And so, ladies and gentlemen, hang on briefly afterwards. I just want to talk to you briefly afterwards. But to everybody who hung out with us today, Greg, NC, Gregory, thank you so much, everybody, for hanging out with us and spending some time. Go down to the show notes. Check out Marika. Check out what she's got going on over there. Reach out to her. She's a splendid individual, and she's got a ton of knowledge, and I'm sure she'd like to talk to you. So, ladies and gentlemen, that's all we've got for today. I hope you have a beautiful day. Aloha. Thank you.