Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope that the sun is shining and the birds are singing and the wind is at your back. Sometimes life can be uncertain and I have with me a guest today who's been on the show before, the one and only... Meg Stafford, an award-winning author and seasoned psychotherapist. Her memoirs, Topic of Cancer, Riding the Waves of the Big Sea, and Who Will Accompany You? My Mother Daughter Journeys, Far from Home and Close to the Heart. They offer profound insights into the human experience, blending humor and depth. For 40 years, Meg has listened to powerful stories in her private practice. valuing the deep connections formed through sharing our truths. As a columnist, she's explored topics ranging from parenting to the wisdom of animals and the joys of unexpected travel. Her storytelling talents shine on WGBH's Stories from the Stage, and in her long-running column, At Moment's Notice, Meg's passion for writing began in childhood. leading to her acclaimed works that resonate with authenticity and warmth. I hope everyone will welcome me in and join us as we delve into Meg's unique perspective on the human condition, exploring how laughter and storytelling binds us together in meaningful ways. Meg, thank you so much for being here today. How are you? I'm great. Thank you. I'm delighted to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Well, I'm always delighted to talk to you. I feel like you do bring this sort of beam of authenticity into the world and kind of shines out so people can kind of see. We were touching briefly on this idea of uncertainty and motherhood and fatherhood. And, you know, your book, Living with Cancer, is kind of the topic of today. Maybe you could just kind of open it up a little bit and talk about, you know, what made you, how old were you? Maybe just give a little bit of background before you wrote that book. Um, so I was 49 when I got my diagnosis of breast cancer, um, and I had always loved writing I had been writing my column for a number of years and it was a natural thing for me to want to shift it in this direction it actually started because um people wanted to know what was happening and I was happy to tell people what was happening But the thing that absolutely made me miserable was saying it over and over again. That just made me nuts. So I started this email distribution list. Had it been just a little later, it would have been a blog, but people started adding to it, and it was a way for me to talk about what was happening, and it was a way for people to communicate with me, and there were people who would respond every time. And there were people who never responded. There were people who clearly hadn't read it. And I just decided from the beginning that whatever it was, was fine. And that it was really great for me to get it off my chest, whatever was going on. And I started adding things because my kids were in seventh and 12th grades and there was, there was a lot going on. So it was a great outlet and people started encouraging me to get it into book form because they understood what their mother, cousin, brother-in-law had been through and didn't talk about. So that, that, felt really important. So I was slipping in, you know, slipping in humor because there's just these quirky, crazy little things would occur to me. And people started encouraging me to like, I like, I like it. I know it sounds really weird, but I like reading what you write and I miss it when you don't write. So it was a great exchange. Yeah, it's... It's fascinating to me to see how someone's condition is like a shared condition. Obviously the people that were reading it were identifying and connecting with you on multiple levels. Maybe they themselves had a diagnosis, maybe their mom or their dad or someone they loved had a diagnosis. And here you are coming out in a very forthright way, even shining the light of humor on it at times to explain, here's what I'm going through right now. And it seems, It's amazing to me how it's therapeutic for you, but also other people. It must have been a weird situation to be in. You're providing therapy for people by telling them what's happened, but you're also getting it back. That's an interesting concept. Which felt really good. And that's why I really wanted to get into book form, because if this can be helpful to other people, as you say, I wanted other people to know that if they have to go through it that that they can, that it definitely is something that you can get through and also for the people close to them to really know what's helpful and what isn't. And I know that there are people who would say, let me know if there's anything I could do. And I know they meant it. I'm sure that they were genuine, but I was much less likely to pick up the phone and call a person who says that than I would be for someone who says, what day can I come and mow your lawn? Or tell me a day that I can come and bring you dinner or like when they were making that kind of specific offer and all I needed to do was supply a time that it was, then I would always answer. So that was really interesting for me to learn, especially as someone who is very independent and like, I'm gonna do it yourself. I'm gonna drag that laundry basket down the stairs. but it, I had to learn to accept the help that people were offering and really honor that because it was, I couldn't do it without it. And that was one of the biggest takeaways for me was that not only is it okay to, to have people help, but it's really important. And it's, that is really another way of exchanging and to, to, appreciate it. Again, whatever form that takes. It's so true. I've often heard that an open invitation is no invitation at all. Even if you know what I mean it. Yeah, of course. Sorry about that. The idea of think a lot about awareness and like the idea of awareness and growth and awareness and I can't help but wonder and want to ask you this question how did your how did your level of awareness change? Like here you are a mother, you have two young kids, you're married, you have this life going on and then you get this diagnosis. And then it's like, does everything change? Is it a slow motion sort of a landfall or is it overwhelming? Is it both? And well, maybe you can just walk us through your perceptual change of who you are, your identity. I'm sure that's a pretty big question, but I just wanted to throw it out there. I'm so curious. Hmm. Probably probably write a little a little bit of both, because in some ways I just am who I am moving, moving through this. And certainly at all at all times trying to be as present as I could to whatever it was that was happening. And that was really helpful because I think then I didn't get stuck with any of it. but um so there is a way in which receiving that diagnosis like things take a turn you know from that point on there is There are tons of doctor's appointments. There's information that you have to absorb. There's questions that you need to think about. There are decisions that you need to think about. The appointments don't all happen in a day. They happen over a period of weeks. So I talk about those first, apart from like the day, which even the day that you're diagnosed, you've already had several weeks likely because like, oh, there's a lump. You go to the doctor, you get referred to an ultrasound. They tell you most of these are fine. Don't worry about it. oh, I see there's something we need to refer you to for a biopsy. So there's a period of weeks where you're anticipating it. So it's not like a bolt out of the blue. So you're hoping that it isn't going to be a cancer diagnosis, but there's some time to let it seep in. And then those first few weeks when you're seeing different physicians, I like to think of it as this this this funnel that you're getting more and more information through before there's a plan so there's several weeks of information gathering and seeing different specialists and finding out what your options are, seeing someone else, seeing what they say, like the second opinion. And I was really fortunate to have one of my closest friends is a physician and she came with me on a couple of the appointments. And so to be able to refer to her and her husband, helped me between gathering a team that I trusted and them, I could really rely on them for the information, like understanding the information and not using the internet too much as a source. I really very intentionally stayed away from the internet because that I think would just feel like a big flood because there's just so much. So I wanted to get enough information to make an informed decision but not be overwhelmed by it. And then it's the day-to-day, what each thing is bringing that day. And whether it's a doctor's appointment or if it's a field trip or a college visit, whatever it is, I wanted to be present for it and to let it in. And so it but so you're right, there is this combination of things are different now. And I tried at all times. even on the most difficult days, like chemo or surgery, those days where it was very consuming, but I always wanted for the cancer not to define my life, but to be a part of it. So I'm a person first, I'm a wife, a mother, a friend, all the daughter, sister. And those things are all true. And sometimes I'm also a cancer patient. And if I'm getting chemotherapy, I'm in it for the day. For me, it was like an all day kind of thing. And I would have a friend. But trying to balance that and let whatever feelings surrounding that came through come through and then also when there's like the really silly stuff like with my wig I i still have images of like you just see my cat like wanting to curl up in it or you know put it on top of the lamp or like if that's what's there let that into so um and I think that anybody can relate to that because it's different for all of us and to to really how however it is uh honor that Yeah, it totally makes sense. And it brings up this... Sometimes we're given the gift of awareness. And when you're faced with a diagnosis like this, I often wonder, did you see... The changes in the way people treated you? And if so, how did you react? Like, that's one for me that always kind of gets me like, it's sort of like this, you know, it's sort of like this confirmation that there's this real thing and you see it in the people that are that are around you. I think they change in some ways. Did you deal with that? And what's your what's your thoughts on that? It's funny because the first thing that comes up is remembering some of the funny things and also some of the things with my clients. One of the times was back in the days when I used to go into the bank for... And I had my wig on, as I did most of the time. That was just the easiest and the most comfortable thing for me. And the teller, who I'd seen, because I would go in frequently, is commenting on how nice my hair is. It's like... Thank you. I really appreciate that. Those quirky thing is so many people commented on my hair in one direction or another, or like when I took the wig off and my hair was super short underneath and just like strolling around Trader Joe's. Someone said, Oh, I had a haircut like that once. Like, why are people all of a sudden commenting on my hair? So, um, And now I've gotten away from your question, but some of the quirky that quirky things that come up. Remind me where we start with this. Oh, so people's awareness of it. People treating me differently. So people unknowingly were treating me differently in those instances, whereas complete strangers. I did find out after the fact, I had one client who I was working with and I told my clients, I told them what my diagnosis was because I was going to come in with different hair. I didn't want them to be like, hey, what's the matter here? I didn't give them tons of details, but I wanted them to know what was going on. Also, that if I was in the office, I was well enough to be there and could totally focus. That was my promise to myself and to them. And so this was a ways into treatment. And there was one client who I really felt like he had done the work that he needed to do. And it was like encouraging him to, you know, we're diminishing time. Like it was really time for him to stop, was not wanting to stop. He finally let me know that. Um, I had completed my treatment that he realized that he wanted to stay with me through, through my treatment because he wanted to make sure I had clients. Uh, and it's like, it's would not have occurred to me that that's what was going on, but, but that's, that's where it was. And that was sort of very unexpected and, um, very sweet. Yeah. And that he was able to identify it and let me know and move on his way. And there was one client who I had only seen her a couple of times, but she left treatment right away. She was at the other end. She felt that she would be too worried about me to stay in treatment. So I couldn't convince her. uh, that I was going to be fine and present. And so if she needed to leave, she needed to leave. So, um, so that was, that was another way, but on the, on the personal side, um, I felt like people didn't treat me too differently. Well, I mean, one friend came over and gave me a foot rub. That was nice. I wish I could have hung on to that one. But apart from that, I would say like my family, like we were, we just sort of carried on as usual, made an effort. It happened that Kate, our younger daughter, was not home when I got the call of the diagnosis. And I was in my office and I had driven home and by the time I got there, Kate had gotten home, but my older daughter and husband came out and hugged me before I got in the house. And Kate's like, what's going on? And so she felt very left out of that. And even though it was only a few seconds, really, we told her right away, it made me realize how important It was to keep them, our daughters, current on what was happening. So like not easy to talk about, but better for them and really for all of us that they know, because better to know about it than to be wondering. The wondering is really hard. So, but from there, it's, we just, you know, a lot of times at home, I wouldn't wear my wig. It was more comfortable and they actually all preferred it. They preferred my little baldy head to the wig. So it was, it was fine to pop it on the lamp or wherever I was gonna put it. Not boil, not boil pasta. I couldn't boil pasta water with it because it would make the wig. I wasn't supposed to open them. It's like very minor. But other than that, we would joke around. I did learn later that all of them at one point or another needed to seek some solace and comfort with their own friends. And it's like, as much as that pained me, it was also inevitable. It's like, of course, it's like, I want to be there for my family. But this was an instance where I was the source of And the worry, so I could not also be the source of the comfort. So it was good to know that they had other people that they could turn to in that event. Yeah. It's what a radical perspective change, you know, to, to be in a situation where you're facing mortality and everybody around you sees it on some level. Like, do you, do you feel that because you've went through this experience that it's changed you in ways that would have made you a different person? Hmm. Um, So one important piece is that from the beginning, even though I knew I was in for the triathlon of treatment, as I call it, chemo, surgery, radiation, the whole deal. From the beginning, they were very positive about the prognosis. So from the beginning, I could look down the line and see all of this treatment as the means to a really positive outcome from it. So I kept that in mind and really didn't think about the fact that it can be deadly certainly is terminal for many people, but you know, I learned a lot about the different kinds of breast cancer cancers in general, but the different kinds of breast cancer and how different it is. Like every, each person's treatment is not the same. And my treatment today would be different than my diagnosis, which is now, um, 17 years ago. So like they're much more, I was stage two, so I had to have chemotherapy the whole deal. Now it might be much more targeted and specific, whereas they had to use a broader brush because that's what they knew. And I had a friend who had been through treatment and she said, think of it as insurance. So it's like good, good plan, good way to look at it. But I think for me, I know a lot of people feel like they have a new appreciation for life, for not taking life for granted. And there were portions of that which I felt were already in place for me because there were a number of really difficult experiences I had had as a teenager in terms of some deaths around me. My cousins and uncle had been in a car accident when I was 19. My uncle had died in that. My other cousin had been, there were like, there's had been killed and there was like a suicide. So like, I already knew that life was not something to take for granted and that appreciating each day. So that was not a new thing. The thing for me really was that notion of how much we need each other. And that I could not, I couldn't drive myself to chemotherapy. There were days when I was getting IV Benadryl, which like, whoa, just like send you into outer space. But because they worry about allergies with that particular medication. And so they give you IV Benadryl first, and then they give you the, So there's no way I could drive myself back from that to and from. And just friends of my daughter's moms put together two weeks worth of meals and there was always another meal. So I really appreciated that and was really grateful for every meal that was brought over. And there was one day when my older daughter was in a class and she was mentioning what was happening, which was fine. It was that particular class, very small. And one of her classmates' moms had been through breast cancer not that long before. And she called me And I didn't know who she was even, and was offering to bring food over. And I was just, at that moment, I was like feeling pretty good. And like, I had a hard time just wrapping my mind around who she was, but she did end up. So it's like, no, I'm all set. But she did offer up, she had a lot of hats and it was like during the winter, I had no hair. Some fleece hats really helped. Uh, and all different kinds of like hats and scarves. And that was, that was really helpful. So I really appreciated, um, her willingness to hang in there with me and to make such a lovely offer. So that was really, um, that was a really big thing for me to not feel like I had to go in alone and to really appreciate that people offer different gifts. and to allow that in. I don't have to be so tough all the time. So that was a big one. Yeah. It's always amazing to me to see how impactful and therapeutic it is to help other people, especially if you've been through something. In some ways, that's your opportunity to reach back and help somebody up. It's like, hey, I've been through this before. Let me hear something you may not know. Check out this hat or do this. It's so... just really speak to the idea of community. And it sounds like that's the erudite thread that's running through the story quite a bit. Yes, totally. It really, really, really is a community. And that's why I wrote the book, because I wanted to extend a hand to people to know this is something that you can do. And for other people to know, what can I do that would be useful? That was really important. And it's so individual. It's so different what people need and when. I found that after one quirky thing, and this is held true many times, a couple of days after surgery, or sometimes right after a minor procedure, when the anesthesia is wearing off, I am very chatty. I know some people get sick. That would be a lot worse. But I find everything fascinating, and I want to tell you all about it. That may happen with other people. it's then I would go through this roller coaster of, uh, finding something really funny. And then like, I would find it really sad that I was finding something so crazy in a name, really funny though. Like I would just, there were, it, it happened several times. So I know it was a thing with the anesthesia where, when it were off, I would go through this roller coaster of emotions. And so like that was, um, I just had to know what that was and ride it out. And so we all need more or less support at different times and to just accept that and like everything else, to allow it through. It's the fastest way to... move through it. If you're having a really sad day, then let it be sad. Let the tears out. Joan Armatrain, years ago, had a great song, Show Some Emotion. And if it's funny, then laugh. There's no right or wrong, but there's a lot less that will get stuck in there if you just let it through. Yeah, it makes total sense. And you have an incredible sense of dimensionality about you. Like you've traveled to all these different places and you've created a lot of cool relationships. And I'm curious, because you've went through this process of living with cancer, traveling to so many other places, have you noticed some differences in the way different cultures see death or they see people going through this process? Because you have such a unique lens to travel so much, are there different attitudes that you've seen that maybe you wish you would have incorporated or maybe you can give to people in this interview? Here's a different aspect of it. Hmm. the only thing that comes to mind right away was when I was in Nepal with, um, with Kate and, and, um, going, going to the river and, and seeing the, the, um, the, the pyres and the funeral pyres. And, and like, that was such a, a different way of, it's just doesn't happen in all, um, And also that the family would come together there and that there were even some rooms for people who were imminently, almost like a hospice, but kind of open for all. But it's not something that I have really talked about. when I've been traveling. And it's right. So it isn't something that it but it is fascinating the way cultures handle many different things. But it's, I don't know that there is one that comes to mind, because it's, it's just not something that I would talk about. So apart, apart from that very obvious difference. I don't know that there are others. Yeah, I bring it up because it seems to me that maybe... our relationship with death is changing. You know, you had this particular instance happen like 17 years ago, and now they have this targeted therapy, which is less invasive probably. And while it may bring up similar emotions for people that had the similar thing, it may change the relationship a little bit. And I was bringing up the first question so I could ask this question. Do you think that the relationship with, our relationship with these, with probably death or, do you think that that's changing? Hmm. That's, it's an interesting question. And it's, um, I think about I think, our relationship to death changes with age. Okay, certainly. Yes. Yeah. As it's hard to even conceive of when you're a child. If you have one, it's right, right. Even in your in your 20s, or like it's, it just continues to evolve. As we as we lose people who are close to us. So I lost one parent when I was in my 30s. And like, if that seemed my older daughter was, was two and a half, the other one wasn't even born yet. And it seemed very far away. And then my mom died just two and a half years ago. And it it looking at it's very, very different. So now in my 60s, it's, it comes into focus in a different way. And it's for a long time, way pre pre dating my, my um chemotherapy my whole cancer treatment it has not been something that I've been afraid of and it's certainly something that I'm fascinated by and curious about and I've done a lot of reading about you know buddhism and past lives and reincarnation and I'm totally fascinated by that and it's something that there are people who who see it not as something not as something they wonder about they just see it as fact that just that just is the way it is and all the the uh the mediums and people who are able to move between the worlds so In and of itself, it's not something that I feel fearful about, but then as now, I'm not ready for that. And what do I want to do? And it's- Right. It's the people who I love, the people who are close to me, I can't stand the thought of losing them or not seeing them or not being there for them. It's something that certainly is very individual. As individual as people's births are, as individuals as death is, and It was very different for each of my parents or looking at my husband's parents, like different for them. And it's interesting to see how different people approach it. I had my first job out of social work school was at Beth Israel Hospital, a medical hospital. And I was working on a medical floor. I was in my mid twenties at that point. And there were some, so on the medical floor, there were often a lot of elderly people, not, not always. And some of them were dying and some really wanted to talk about it. And they wanted to, there's stuff they wanted to convey to people. And I remember one 95 year old man who would not approach it any, which way he was not going there. And I, That was what it was. If he didn't want to go there, I certainly was not the person to force it or to make him. And my hope for people is to be able to look at it as directly and as squarely as possible because I think I'm all for simplicity and ease and I think that's the easiest way through and easiest for a family also to be able to be aware of it and to be able to prepare for it and to know what kinds of things you want to leave behind. Um, I wonder, like I it's, I'm hard pressed to know how representative my own view is, um, versus other, other people. Cause it it's, I don't know how much it's evolved so much as just individual, the way people see it and, um, anticipate it or, or prepare for it, make choices around it. There's, there's so much, so much about that. Yeah. I kind of see the book as the experience as a rite of passage and the book as a wisdom keeper handing down information. That was just your unique experience, and this is the way in which you handled it. It seems in the Western world, we have this absence of rites of passage or ceremonies. And it seems to me like what you were doing is, hey, here's my experience. And it's almost ceremonial in a way. And that's the passing down of information of like, hey, here's here's some resources that could be good to you. And in your situation, you spoke of other people that reached out to you. But there's no formal ceremony on some level of getting to explain. Here's what I'm going through. Here's how I feel. And then kind of passing it to the next generation. And that was my hope for it, too. for us to move in that direction where it's like we celebrate the elders instead of having palliative care where we cover everything up and kind of take the dignity out of it. No, I think you're right. And it's interesting that one of my daughter's friends is a minister. And she, along with another minister, just came out with a book. and uh I'm blanking on the exact name of it but it is really about having rituals and having love it maybe everything blessings for all or everything is stuff it's something like that but but just it it is a way of of um acknowledging even small things I i remember that uh one of them is like the first day of school ritual or the uh like the big rituals, like marriage and death, their graduations, those are, everybody does those, but it's those smaller ones, you know, like leaving a crib for a bed or first steps, everybody recognizes, but sort of, it seems like a way of really appreciating our small achievements and the little steps and the little changes that many of us go through along the way. But really taking the time to notice, oh, this is my first boat ride. This is the first time I'm stepping on a plane. This is the last day of preschool. Because along with any transition, no matter how positive it is, there is implied loss in the transition. even in the positive things. So like anticipating children, what like the most wonderful thing, it does mean a difference in the way parents are then going to be with each other. So it, it, it lovely to be able to notice them and notice the, the, the changes on in, in both directions. Yeah. There's real magic in, in, being aware and present and the miracles that are happening around you all day if you're willing to kind of pay attention to them and how lucky we are. That's true. It's true. It's in all kinds of ways. I think of our animals because they are tremendous teachers in that they are only ever in the moment. Or mostly, I should say. Yeah. So if they're happy about something, they're excited. If they're worried, they're worried. It's right out there. But they're noticing. They help us to stay and notice all the little things, the little blessings, the little bumps, all the layers, all the richness in life. It's so true. Megan, because I have the greatest audience in the world, I've got some questions that people have sent to me and I'd like to ask a few of them to you here. Oh, absolutely. OK, here we go. All ears. Cancer can often bring about a profound sense of isolation. What strategies do you use to combat loneliness and stay connected with your community? Talk about it a little bit, but is there something else? So certainly for me, the the email distribution, the emails that I was writing really was, was hugely helpful. But also I spoke to my friends regularly and family and, um, there are centers around and I didn't participate too much during during treatment but actually I've given them books that the uh the healing garden there are different places that give people access both to um therapy uh also to various modes of treatment like one they will have doing artwork together doing journaling song any of those things I think in there are groups for people and whichever one calls out to people I would recommend because absolutely connecting with other people really really helpful um because there are people without family and who are they connecting with? So finding these places. And sometimes the hospitals will know about resources or individual physicians may know about them, but the team should be able to help with those. And certainly it wasn't at the time that I went through, but I'm sure now that there are big online communities as well. The act of writing, seems to be really helpful to a lot of people in different areas of their life. And when they go through traumatic events, how did writing the book for you, like, how did you choose what stories to put in there? And was there this overall sense of what you wanted the book to be as you were writing it? um um so answer your the second part first um no because as I was writing it I was not planning it as a book right I was just writing it because uh because I write and I i needed to get things out so I didn't write every day um but there were so many days where there was something to talk about and then I would I was writing about like that time in the post office where the postmaster was just like stamping on those and on those packages like there was no tomorrow you know and then he was talking about cremains being sent through the morale and this one must have been really heavy it's like oh my god uh so um so just writing about whatever came up was really helpful to me and I often will assign people writing uh in in my therapy practice sometimes writing for yourself but also sometimes um writing to someone else in order to convey a message to them And sometimes I will assign people to write about things, write to someone who has died. And it still is really powerful to get it out there. but um I really wasn't thinking about the book until until later much in in the much later stages when people were encouraging me to do that and uh and so I compiled all the emails and sent them off to an editor and said is this something that someone other than my immediate 80 people would have any interest in and she said yes so with her help and other people's help. I other people's help I needed. There were things I needed to add in so that there would be some context as to who people were. And there were things that I needed to leave out because like, if this person never comes up again, do you do you need them in there? But largely, Um, it, it was the emails that, that, uh, became the book. So the book is written in real time. And, um, I appreciated that about it. And this, then when I started getting into the publishing and cause I ended up self publishing, a lot of people were were encouraging me to do it more like a self-help. Like if you're feeling this, try these things. And that's just not me. I don't think that that's my greatest strength as a writer. And I think that my perspective is what's more important. My like silly humor, the plastic guy and like laser lady. I think that that's more important. valuable for people. And I like to learn by reading stories. So I wanted other people to have access to learn that way. And for people who prefer the, in this circumstance, try this, they can, there are certainly books out there that can be helpful for that. But it's, so I held fast in my, I need to do it this way with my voice. There's something powerful about stories that move us, whether you go back to the Iliad and the Odyssey or you watch The Hunger Games, whatever story it is that you find yourself enchanted by. There's real magic in stories. And I think about the relationship between comedy and tragedy. And your book definitely is a wonderful story that mixes all these emotions in there. And it's got some really funny parts. I was hoping, without giving away too much of the secret sauce, if you could share one of the stories that you thought was funny and interesting for the people to kind of give them a little teaser so that they can be like, I'm going to get this book. Well, there was that one about going into the bank. It's the first time that they had just taken down all the plexiglass, so it was totally open. And that was when she, across the room, was like, oh, I like your haircut. Or when I, same with my, again with the hair, I was at a party and one of my friend's friends who I'd known for years, because we'd known each other a long time, first thing he says, oh, really nice haircut. And I said, oh, you too can have a haircut like this. And he looked at me like, what are you talking about? But he didn't know that I was wearing a wig and that he could have one too if he wanted. I do remember one really silly pun from it. Nice. I love them. So if you don't like puns, this book will be tricky because there are a lot of them. We had gone on a boating trip. One of my husband's workmates has a boat and offered us a ride, which was really, really delightful. And so I asked if Freud had a boat, where would he park it? And the answer is, of course, in a Freudian slip. So that's just one little example. I love the wordplay. Like I'm a huge fan of just the different language and how it forces us to think differently and how... you know, you can't really go anywhere without a linguistic pathway. And sometimes those puns just make life silly or interesting or philosophical or psychological, you know, and it's, it's, it's so it's mesmerizing to see how therapeutic language can be in these times in this relationship with humor. I, um, In the radiation room, they have, there were, I'm not going to remember all of them, but like one of the, like they had these different buttons because they obviously did not want you getting anywhere near the beams. But like one of the buttons was beam on. So it's like, I took that as encouragement. Beam on. Shine on. Okay. I love to see that one lit up. What kind of a hippie was in here naming this thing, right? Exactly. Oh, one of the worst ones was, I was talking with someone who, different cancer, but it was the tumor board. It's like, oh, the tumor board. Like, oh, that's such a horrible visual image. And I appreciate that it's the coming together of many great minds that form the tumor board, but it's just such a, I cannot get the other visual out of my mind. Yeah. there should be a whole industry where we fix that problem. That's a clear... The tumor board, it's called the circle of death or something. There should be... I think they still do. They call pregnancies over a certain age geriatric pregnancy. It's like... That's a terrible term. There are lots of other words you can use. It brings to mind seniors having babies. That's not what we want in our heads. All of a sudden, we're in this sci-fi novel. It's like a Philip K. Dick novel all of a sudden. It's not a helpful direction here. Right. It's crazy to think. Right. Now my mind just races to the idea of like the left brain and the right brain and the logical side versus the ideal side, you know, in trying to put together these things. Do you feel that having a bigger outlook and be it humor or having like a grand idea of life served you well versus having a really tight logical aspect of it? You know what I mean? It seems like that tight, logical, narrow view doesn't leave a lot of room for hope. Hope is so important. Right? Yeah. I gave a talk last week, actually, about the importance of telling the truth, truth-telling. And one of the physicians... And the audience actually, and this is something I'm very pretty natured about, so I have to be careful. But he said that as a physician, sometimes this is in India, but I think that they're hesitant to tell a patient the full truth because they want them to have hope. And it is a very tricky thing. It's a very tricky thing, especially having worked in a hospital. I know that if people were told, oh, you're doing great, you're going to get out tomorrow, and then they're not. It's one thing if something comes up and something changes, but if you know someone's going to be there a week, don't tell them you're going to get out tomorrow. Tell them they're going to be there a week because then you can at least mentally prepare for that. rather than having the up-down of you're getting out tomorrow, nope, the next day, nope. Hope really, really critical. Also, from the physician's point of view, I think also if there isn't hope, important to have some idea like don't say oh yeah you got years when it's two weeks like that doesn't serve either so I am fortunate to be um my husband might say relentlessly optimistic but it's um that just tends to be the way I roll so that's that's helpful uh but I also believe that I maintain a realism and I don't want to be given rose colored glasses. I want to know the real deal. And I still have a lot of hope. I have a lot of hope for people. That's why I do what I do. And I will see those, I see possibilities and I want to convey that to people. I think that's really important. So hope really essential, but also if there is none to let that in and be able to have the time to digest that and make decisions from there, because if it, even on small, the small level, you know, if like, if, if, if our children are wanting to go out for ice cream and you say, well, maybe, maybe, but you know, there's no, no way you're going out. Yeah. Better cue that up in the beginning and say, not tonight, but maybe tomorrow. Then hold out, well, maybe in 10 minutes, maybe in 10 minutes, maybe in 10 minutes when you don't want to. Hope very important and also, when it's not to be able to acknowledge that so people can prepare and shift elsewhere. Like if the answer is no about something, that's not a terrible thing. Just you need to find what you need elsewhere. Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me of that quote, hope Springs eternal. And sometimes in the, in the dangerous truth that we've learned about ourselves, it does allow for a new spring to like, well, if this does happen, I hope I can teach my child how to do it right. You know, there is hope regardless of the diagnosis, right? And that optimistic realism that you have, I think it shines through in your work. It's one reason I love talking to you. And I think that you have this sort of contagious optimism that comes through the screen, comes through the books, and it comes through your work. You know, I'm thankful for that. And I hope other people catch it. but I hope so too because there is so much to be hopeful for and there is so much possibility and people blow me away with what they're capable of and and how much people will do for one another and themselves. Some of my clients just amaze me what they're willing to work through in order to get to a better place. And it's just like, you go. That's awesome. That's what we're here for, to help each other evolve and walk each other home. I love it. As we're coming up on an hour right here, Meg, I want to first invite everyone to go down to the show notes and check out Meg's books, her articles, reach out to her. She's an incredible individual and she helps lots of people and she has a really unique lens through which she navigates the world and she likes to share it, so you should take advantage of that. But before I let you go, I was curious if you could just share one more time maybe what it is you want people to get after reading this book. I really want people to know that, um, that if you or someone close to you receives a cancer diagnosis, that there is a way through and that there are people to help that, um, that you have inner resources that you're not even aware of, but there are also external resources in the form of people, in the form of books, groups, doing art, and that it doesn't have to all be serious. That it's possible to laugh and dance and be creative Enjoy life even in the midst of a challenging diagnosis. It's beautiful. Go at it. Would you be so kind as to give people the name of the website where they can reach you or they can find the books and maybe what you got coming up and what you're excited about? Absolutely. So my website is www.megstafford.com. And the book we're talking about is called Topic of Cancer, Riding the Waves of the Big Sea. My actually more recent book is Who Will Accompany You? My Mother-Daughter Journeys Far from Home and Close to the Heart. I'm on Instagram, Meg Stafford 2183. LinkedIn, Meg Stafford. So those are the Those are the places that you can find the books, find me. I have lots of articles on my blog from the many columns that I wrote, and some of them during this time when I was in treatment, and some of them after. It was interesting to see how my perspective changed Um, and my local paper, they would have the first, the first paper of every month in October of the, uh, cancer breast cancer awareness month would be pink. And I would make sure to write a column for that. I'd wrote a lot about hair, um, all, all different kinds of stuff. So there's lots of short stuff there as well, but. Thank you. It's been a delight as always. You're a wonderful interviewer. You ask great questions and are very attentive. I appreciate that. Well, I'm stoked to talk to you. I couldn't let you go without asking, is there a third book in the works? It seems like there's these stories of journeys, like this relationship with cancer. Then there's the one with the girls and your mom. I can't help but think you're working up towards a trilogy here. There will be a third one at some point. It was going to be a compilation of the columns broken into different categories and then having pieces that that set them up. And then the editor who I worked with wanted me to skew it the other way. So if I was talking about relationships, she didn't want me to just post the article. She wanted me to talk about relationships and then inject pieces of the columns in it. So that's a little bit bigger task, but that is one possibility. Also I am, so this talk I just gave about speaking our truths and where everybody wins, I'm hoping to get that into like Ted talk kind of frame, but that's something that I want to continue to revise and get out there. Cause that is also very powerful and important and not something that we all grow up with, but it's so important for our everyday living. So I could go on, not about that. So I'll at least be getting more columns out about that. Do you have a minute for another question? Sure. Writing and speaking. I think it was Samuel Clemens who said that the written word is the carcass of the spoken word. And now you're doing the speaking tour and you're talking about this. How do you feel about the relationship, in your opinion, between the spoken word and the written word? So he said that, say that again, that the written word is the carcass of the spoken word. It's such an interesting. Correct. I'll have to digest that one a little bit. And so some of the stories I've told, and I'm telling one live, not this Sunday, but the following Sunday. And they call it the, for those of us who have done writing more than speaking, they call it the page to stage story. I like it. And it's different. They're very different. And it's interesting for me to be learning how to deliver something live, like a story live. The first two stories I've told have been one has been from the second part of the book in Columbia takes place in Columbia. The other one was more about the first story. book where the first part where I was in Nepal and and getting a phone call out in the middle of nowhere and like, what is happening and navigating that? And this one is the topic is bonkers. This is going to be about our dogs and some of the antics that we had. But I think that they each have an audience and they have different impacts. I always have trouble, I always had trouble writing research papers because I tend to write very much the way I speak. So it's much more casual, but there still is some of the adjustments I had to make in the stories where I had to get some of the written-ness out of it. So it would be more, even more the way I speak. So I think they're both wonderful and have different different places so it's it's fun for me to be in the in the speaking foray to to make sure that it it doesn't sound too written but both both wonderful both fun I agree it's it's cool and I'm thankful that you're doing both I think it's a well-rounded way to share your craft with people and so ladies and gentlemen please go down to the show notes. Do yourself a favor. Check out the books, the columns. Reach out to Meg. Go to the website. That's all we got for today. Hang on briefly afterwards, Meg. Go to everybody else. I hope you have a beautiful day. I hope you realize that there's a bright future ahead of you. Anything else, Meg, you want to say before we go? Oh, I agree. What he said. Thank you. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Aloha.