Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. I hope everybody's day is going absolutely beautiful. We are streaming to you today from the Bay Area, the first podcast of the True Life Podcast in California. So I'm excited to have an incredible guest, which most of my listeners know, and that is Reverend Dr. Jessica Rochester. She's the Madrina and president of the Sioux de Montreal, a Santo Daime ayahuasca church that she founded in 1997 in Montreal, Canada. She's a transpersonal counselor. She trained in the work of Dr. Roberto Asagioli and trained with Dr. Stanislav Graf. She worked with Health Canada from 2000 until 2017 to achieve a Section 56 exemption to import and serve the Santo Daime sacrament. She's an ordained interfaith minister with a doctorate in divinity. From 1986 to 2018, she has been a workshop leader, teacher, and in private practice. She's the author of Ayahuasca Awakening, A Guide to Self-Discovery, Self-Mastery, and Self-Care, Volumes 1 and 2. She continues to lecture on consciousness, non-ordinary states of consciousness, self-discovery, spiritual development, health and well-being, and personal transformation. Dr. Jessica, thank you for being here today. How are you? Well, thank you so much for inviting me back on the show. I'm really honored to be your first guest in your new studio and launching a new season. So the first thing I'm going to do is send you life, health, happiness, and open paths. Okay? Health in the body, peace in the spirit, and love in the heart. It is this that I wish for you, all our brothers and sisters, all creatures, and all humanity. Well, thank you. I can feel the love surrounding me. And there's a sort of electric newness that happens when you're in a new area. And I feel like moving to an area sort of opens up and makes you more aware. It's its own new awareness. And I think that's a nice segue into what we're going to talk about today. Well, it actually is. And I do want to confirm what you've said. Those of you who are interested, if you haven't read my books, you'll find that In Volume 2, when we talk about the circle of wholeness, we talk about where we live. We touch on it in The Self in Volume 1, Part 1, but we talk about how where we are, sacred sites and geography affects us. And whether we're in the mountains or in the desert or next to the ocean or the cachoeiras, the little rivers and streams, that there's a connection that we have with nature. And when we change our geography, they talk to people and they go and they go and live in the mountains or in the forests. And so you've made this switch and you're going to find that the trees will talk to you if you listen. The earth, you know, everything has a vibration. And this is not just la-la talk. This is science. You know, the insects are all talking to each other. It's just in a decibel that is beyond our range. Elephants often, they have a call. They can do well below our range. You know, the tectonic, you know, plates are shifting and grinding. Can you imagine if we could hear all of this? It would be overwhelming. So each body that we have, whether we're a bird or dolphin, you know, an elephant or a human is a filtering mechanism that, filters out everything that isn't essential for our survival. And that's just how we're wired. So we see, smell, hear, sense a certain range of things. And then every other creature does so a bit differently. But if we pay attention, we'll find that there is a vibration, exactly what you're saying. And there's a vibration, a new place and a new energy and Is it the land and the rocks and the rivers and, you know, the trees talking to you? Is it the people in the culture around? And we can say yes to it's all of it. Yeah. Everything has its place. Yeah. The wonderful language of relationships. Yeah. So you're making new relationship, you know, and, And you can do the indigenous, all my relationships and out of the rocks and the trees, or you can do the Buddhist, you know, which is we are brothers and sisters and everything, or you can do the last day, you know, what feels right for you. But we find that all ancient cultures have this deep understanding of our connectedness to nature and to our surroundings and, and how to really, Experience that in the best way that we can for our higher good, for nature's higher good. So all good vibrations for your new chapter. And we have an interesting topic. And it's such an interesting one to start your new season in. So, you know, I flew it by you last month or so, two months ago. Hey, do you want to talk about this? And you said, yeah, sure. So we're talking about projection, entrance and countertransference. And then specifically in the non-ordinary state of consciousness, because that's an important thing to be talking about and needs to be revisited every now and again, because these things kind of sit down into our unconscious because you feel vulnerable talking about these things. Right. So let's start with some definitions. You know, me, I always like to define things. These are listeners. you know, are scrambling for dictionaries. What's that? Okay. Some strange idea about what these words actually need. So to start with, it's, we got to roll back to Freud and Young, you know, because they battled out the definitions of this. They were colleagues who discussed these things and wrote about these things and corresponded with each other about what these things meant and how they saw the placement of them in the theories they were developing. and in the reality of living with their practices and their clients and patients and what they were discovering through their own awareness. Now we can say, okay, their maps were a little limited, especially the Freudian one focused in one area, but everything is, has value. Okay. We just have to put the other pieces in to balance it out. So what is projection? What would be your definition? Projection seems to me, in my experience, to be a defense mechanism, often unconscious that we, if I say this person is being really hostile, maybe it's because I'm being really hostile. It's sort of this mirror image that we put on people. And if we pay attention to it, at least in my experience, you can see yourself and other people through this sort of unconscious projection, your thoughts onto them. Yes, that's already speaking to an awareness of the mechanism. So let's dial it back down. You know, there's a few definitions of projection, each one adding on, okay? So the classical definition is what happens when we repress or reject on an internal level because it has been repressed or rejected by family, education systems, society, culture, an era, okay? we repress certain aspects of ourselves that is unacceptable in our environment. Okay? And then once it's repressed, and it's usually going into our unconscious, okay, if we see it out there, we might have a strong reaction to it. Okay? Because we've had to repress it in us. So if we went to school in a convent school, okay, where we had to obey the nuns and live in a very strict, strict system, you know, then it's only natural that certain movements might be attributed to acting, you know, acting in a certain way that was unacceptable, that sexuality, sensuality, even creativity, curiosity, okay, many things can get packed down. because of external situations and environments. And so if we see it in someone else, that will awaken a response, and we may feel the need to reject or repress it in the person that we see it in, or the situation that we see it in, or we might feel envious of it without realizing that it's inside of us. Jealous or envious, okay? And have a kind of, you know, I've worked with many people who have that whole thing going on for them, but they got so contained that they didn't realize that what they saw in others that they envied was a lot of it was inside of themselves. And if they just turn your focus back on me and find what's in me and develop that, then they aren't always looking on other people. So those are some of the common things that can be happening in kind of classical projection. And, um, Those of you who read my books, you know that I cover it in Volume 1. In a broader sense, it's the unconscious denial of an aspect of our reality, our internal reality. So it's a combination, possibly, of the things that we've seen. It may have been an actual imposition because of society or culture that we have to address a certain way. We have to. And this is affected, you know, it's affected, it seems to have affected women more than men because certain aspects in culture and society have always been more restrictive when it comes to women than men. You know, men could travel by themselves. Women couldn't for centuries or millennia, you know. Men could publish. Women had to publish in their husband's folders or brother's name or do art, you know, how many great books and great works of art and literature are actually done by women who got attributed to their husbands, brothers, or fathers, you know. When you think about it, women's clothing always more oppressive than men's. So, you know, men could go to university, women couldn't go to university. So those things have always been somewhat more tight when it's come to women. But no one should think that men got off scot-free. OK, because there's some aspect just want to say a word about that. There's an aspect in kind of let's call it the feminist movement. And I am all in supporting for women to be empowered and strong and take their place and equal opportunity on absolutely every single solitary level. But men didn't get off scot free and get it all. They had to disown parts of themselves. They had to always be strong. They always had to be brave. They had to go off and fight the wars. I mean, okay, more recently, women are allowed to do that should they wish, okay? And there was always those queens, you know, Eleanor, Aquiline, and Boudicca who would get on the horse and take a sword and go and fight, but they were very rare. The average woman was not allowed to do that, you know? If you were a queen, you could get away with a little bit more stuff than the average woman. You know, put your apron back on, sweetheart, and go in the kitchen. You know, so the men also had to, you know, stuff down stuff. And only more recently are men allowed to take ownership of trauma or loss. You didn't have to come back from every war saying, me hero, me strong. You could come back saying, horrified at what I had to do and what I saw. And our culture now has made space for men to have that. Okay? And so many things can get disowned, hidden, and then they can move into that area of rejection. So I just want to read one thing that I wrote here. How deep it can go. It can go into thoughts, feelings, belief systems. Okay? It's as if what we disown can have its own life. It's unique. its own body sensation. Does this make sense, what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely. Often it does take on its own life. That's when you say, I don't know who I am. When it gets activated, there can be a lot of sensations, thoughts, feelings, beliefs, body feelings, even a body posture that accompanies that which has been disowned, repressed, or denied. It's the mechanism for imagining also. that other people have those same experiences, okay? And that's an interesting form of projection. The thief thinks everyone is cheating. Right? So that's a different aspect of projection now. The person who is unfaithful assumes that everyone cheats on their partner. This is all projection. That what I'm doing, thinking, feeling, everyone's doing, thinking, and feeling. It's interesting, isn't it? Yeah, it's interesting to think about the role of the collective unconscious in that. Mm-hmm. Say more. Well, it seems to me that when you get to a certain age, or maybe you've had a certain set of experiences, you come to this realization that just because you think something or just because you're, you think something doesn't mean anybody else in the world may be thinking it. They may, but it's that particular situation has gotten me into some sticky situations. And, and so that's why your name is, you know, a Legion. Okay. Because this is what happened is the unconscious trips us up. We know it. We've stepped into a pile of doo-doo and everything is kind of stinky now. And how do we get past that? So let's talk about another aspect of the projection, which is particular, is really interesting in our current, where our culture is right now on Western civilization and what's going on. So another form is holding people responsible for what we feel inside. You made me feel like that. This is particularly specific for people who carry shame or feelings of inadequacy. Okay? Instead of seeing, oh, something about this situation or this person is awakening this that is inside of me, they blame the other person. You make me feel like this. which is a projection. It's not true. So you may have a friend who brags and is arrogant about their accomplishments. And instead of being happy for them and teasing them about their bragging, which would be a healthy response, like, yay, you, you know, you got that promotion that you were after. And hey, dial down the ego, buddy, you know what? So instead of having support for the accomplishment and a sense of humor, which is always can ease things, okay? As long as it's a true, kind sense of humor and it's not sarcasm or, you know, covert put down and all those things. Haha, only joking. Wipe your blood off my knife and stick it back in my boot, you know? So you made me feel like this is not okay. You know, everyone needs to take a long, hard look in the mirror if they find themselves doing that. Okay? They can come home and say, oh, my boss, you know, or supervisor or manager or whatever. Okay? Or go out with the girls or the guys or whatever you might do and say, oh, my partner, you know, makes me feel like this all of the time. You kind of, oh, that's inside. We have to be willing to look in the mirror. and say, okay, this is mine. And if I'm feeling inadequate, I need to look inside of myself and think, what is it about this situation or this person that is it that makes me feel inadequate? And what's that about? And what is it that I need to be doing? Does that make sense what I'm saying? Yeah, 100%. I look at experiences in my life and my relationships, and you see it. I see it in growing up, and it's been a big part of my therapy of living the best life I can or having a better relationship is coming to terms with you can't control the situation, but you and you alone get to control the meaning of that event. And that's ownership of it, right? Mm-hmm. And that is core in the therapeutic relationship to create the space, a supportive, and even let's call it safe, sacred space in which respect, okay, and healthy boundaries are always there, ethics on the top, okay? And in which we help people find that place that you just spoke to. You know, we need to get to that place where what's mine and what's not mine? What am I accountable for? And what is, I just got to let go of. And what's just part of life? What's just part of being human and living? You know? Yeah. And, and, and, and, you know, who am I? And how do I come to terms with, this is what I got in this lifetime. Now this is a hand of cards, but I got dealt. And, and now how do I, make my journey. This is one lifetime. How do I make my journey? And what meaning do these things have for me? And it gets very interesting. So a projection bias, which is another aspect of projection, which I find particularly interesting having, you know, practice and especially in non-ordinary states of consciousness, the decades I was doing Stan Grof's work, the whole interpret draft work. So it is a bias that one's current state of being will last forever, will always last. Let's look at two experiences. The person who is completely depressed for whatever reason, could be any reason, a divorce, a career change, a loss of some kind. a health diagnosis could be any reason for it. Okay. In that depression, they may look at it instead of saying, this is a difficult passage. It's actually a healthy reaction to that grief, that loss. And if I work with it, I will travel through it and come up the other side, which is what most of us therapists spend doing is trying to help people get that. Okay. Okay. They will think I'm in it forever. It's always going to be like this. I'm always going to feel this sad, this bad, this frightened, this inadequate, this shameful, what have you. The flip side of it is fall in love. You know, my partner, he's the best, he's wonderful, we love, everything is perfect. Wait until the first disagreement and then you'll see what's really there. Okay, is it love? Was it lust? Is it infatuation? Are you going to create the space for it to become love? Okay, so this is a projection bias, where what we're feeling right now feels like it's going to continue. Instead of just seeing it's like sunny days, cloudy days, rainy days, and then it snows. Okay, there's kind of like the weather, there's everything comes and goes. You know, we want to grasp onto it, it slips through our fingers, we want to push it away, it sticks to our So anything more you want to ask or say or share about projection? I think we've presented a nice sort of opening for projection. Yeah. Good. Okay. So now the thing is we have to understand that this is operating all the time. Right. We're in it like fish in water. It's like we're in air. It is something that is always happening. And only when it bumps into something will we become aware that it's happening, that these things are inside of us. But it's ubiquitous. Everybody has it. Everybody's got it. The more we hold it with respect and a little humor and some kindness and some wisdom, the more likely we are to be able to name it, work with it, and integrate, understand, or leave behind. So this affects everything everywhere. Personal relationships is often where it's going to really, I mean, if you find yourself going in and the bank teller can set you off, well, something's really close to the surface, okay? You know, you really need to have a look at if something's close to the surface. But it's usually the closer the relationships are or the more power dynamic the structure is. Okay. And so that takes us right into transference. Do you want to do a little definition of your sense of what is transference and then what is counter transference? Yeah, it seems to me that transference is the idea, if I fight with my wife, I'm fighting with my mother. I'm fighting... You know what I mean? You're still fighting this last battle. They say the generals fight the last wars. Maybe in the idea of transference, we're fighting the last war that we had. Very well put. Yes, gold star, George. Gold star. So, yes, it's... It's our internal story. Now, it focuses on this lifetime in this family of origin. And, you know, that has really valuable stuff. But it is broader than that. You know, it can be any of the authority figures in our life. It can be an older sibling. I've worked with people where an older sibling has played a larger role or even a younger sibling. especially situations where in the family dynamic, there's one of the children has a health disorder or a behavioral disorder or special needs. Okay. That sets up a whole lot of stuff, you know? And so we can also have transference that comes beyond that comes from past lives. And that, you know, for anybody who has a different map from that, that's fine. Okay. Okay. But I've seen it so many times that at some point I just have to accept it, that this is a possibility. And whatever one chooses to believe about the experience of past lives and reincarnation, you know, to quote Stan Grof, you have to admit that there's something happening here. So people feel that they've relived or re-experienced something that has great meaning and teaching for them, and that somehow shows them something in this lifetime that echoes some theme or experience in a past life or past lives that can be resolved in this one. And that's kind of as simply as I can put it. So yeah, so transference is, the original word that Freud was using was uvertogen, which is actually a translation as an overcoat. And he saw it as if we took the overcoat of somebody, you know, our mothers, fathers, grandparents, whatever, and put it on somebody else and reacted to them as if they were that original person or dynamic. Now, we can have transference not on only people. We can have transference on institutions and of all kinds, business, academic, religious. Okay? We can really have, you know, deep, strong feelings and reactions to those. We see this a lot. I'll use an example. We see this a lot in the South of India, in our Daini church. We wear a uniform. Why do we wear a uniform? Well, there's a very good reason that Mr. Neo decided a uniform was important. All I have to do is say, when you go on a boat, Does the crew wear a uniform so that you can identify the crew when you get on an airplane? Does the crew wear uniforms so that you can identify who's passenger and who's crew? Can you imagine if everybody just, all the crew got on board and whatever they felt like wearing, leggings and a t-shirt, cargo pants, you know, pullover or something. How would you know who's the pilot, who's the stewardess, who's the, you know, who's the cabin crew? who to ask for something to eat or where the bathroom is or, you know, that you don't feel well or, you know, whatever. So he saw it like that. He saw that, you know, and he'd had an army background. He'd been conscripted into the army and had served his years in the army. And so he understood a chain of command and he understood the necessity of of having uniforms and also being able to identify chain of command. If there's an extra stripe on your shoulder or on your cap or something, what that signifies. And so you know who to salute and whose orders to follow and what that chain of command is. And so that worked its way into two uniforms that we wear in the South of Thailand, the white uniform and the blue uniform. especially our blue uniform, which is the one we wear most often, which is a very simple white shirt for the men and navy blue pants and navy blue tie. For the women, it's a short-sleeved white shirt and navy blue pleated skirt. It's so simple, okay? And a little navy blue tie. So simple. But you instantly know who's crew, okay? You instantly know who's crew. who's on deck and who's visitors and who's participants and what have you. And yet it's astounding how many people come in and react. They react to the uniform because it reminds them of schools that they went to where they had really difficult school experiences. And that's a really big reaction that can happen, you know. and so, you know, they get, the Santo Domingo is a syncretic Christian path, so it's got Eastern spiritualism, it's got European spiritualism, it's got some African influences from yesterday, his family came from Africa, and it's got some Amazonic shamanism in it, so it's very eclectic, and yes, we do have the cross on the central altar, and it's got two bars on it, not just the one classic St. Catholic or standard Christian cross on it. So people will react to that if they've had a tough, kind of imposing, impositional, religious Christian background. They'll come in and go, ooh, you know. And so these are the things that we can, you know, it can go on institutions and not just individuals. If we only think it's about an individual, then we're going to be missing a lot. countertransference. What's your definition on that one? It seems to me the countertransference is almost when the individual who is sitting with someone or the recipient of transfers like their reaction. Maybe they get offended and all of a sudden now they are no longer listening to what the individual told them, but they are responding to a feeling that hurt them in a past conversation or a past experience. And so the conversation just goes sideways from there because they're no really longer talking to one another. Now they're just talking about past projections or past sort of transgressions. Yeah, just side monologuing. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, my story. And the other person's going blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, my story. Okay. And everybody stopped listening a long time ago. Okay. And the hackles are rising and the horses are growling and the tails are stiffening or swishing. The ears are out and the whole thing's going on. Okay. Now, Interesting about Jung, he considered transference to be a spontaneous, complicated phenomenon with many different features. I agree 100% to that. He believed it connected to instincts and spirit and is aligned with the process of projection. Yes, you got it. So it's not some simple thing. It's quite complex. So we need to be patient and breathe with it and do our best to try and understand it and, you know, do our best with it, you know? Now, countertransference, and I'm going to give you a funny, funny, haha, but not funny, haha, example, okay? Decades and decades ago, I'm going to say, it must have been early 90s, and in my training with Stan Grof, we're in a retreat, I think there's about 60 people in the room, divided in sitters and breathers, of course, facilitators. It was just Stan was leading it. He did do other ones with Jack Kornfield, but this one's just Stan. And often Paul Groff, his brother, who I've made reference before, who is a dear friend, and he would come up just to, if it was close to, you know, the east side of, or he could, skip out of work for a while, he would join in and he would just hang out as a kind of an unofficial facilitator because he himself is an extremely well-respected psychiatrist in his own field. And it was always a joy to hang out. And so the thing happens. It happens and it's not in the little group that I was responsible for because facilitators usually work two in a team and and you'd have a group of people within the larger room, larger group, so it would be broken down to about 10 or 12 people, and you're responsible for your little group in the room, right? And then leading the sharing circle afterwards, and then going into the larger circle. So one of the breathers is clearly going through something quite deep, and is demanding that the sitter sit in a way that they can kick them. There's certain things that you can ask for. You can ask someone to hold your hand if you're feeling scared. You can ask for Kleenex, give them some water. Even hold you or hug you in a way that is appropriate. Usually what you do is put a pillow between you and the person so that there's still a hug, but it's not intimate, if you know what I'm saying. Because transference and counter transference are so sensitive in non-ordinary states. So there's ways of supporting people and holding them and reassuring them. Okay. This person was demanding. And what happened to the sitter was they got in a rage and started kicking this breeder. I mean, it's funny, not funny. Okay. I mean, it is not funny. It's only funny in retrospect. In the moment, it was like shocking. Okay. So, You know, immediately the facilitators are over there and then Paul sits with that breather because he's got the, you know, he's got the courage to be able, you know, he's not going to get caught up in whatever was happening to this breather. But they have the ability to, and here's where it gets very interesting. The more baggage we have, the more emotional, psychological baggage we have, the more likely that we're going to have projections and transference and counter-transference going on for us, okay? And there's certain things that happen in the non-ordinary state of consciousness in which everybody in contact with the non-ordinary state, okay? Even if you're the sitter, you're the facilitator, you're not the breather, okay? Then, and I'm going to use breathwork as a model, and then perhaps our church, is... When you're in a non-ordinary state, everybody is affected. The energy is different. We opened today's talk with talking about energy and how it's different where you are now. Being in a room where people are in a non-ordinary state of consciousness, deliberately having chosen to enter into a non-ordinary state, the energy is affecting everybody in the room. And when people go into deep passages, or difficult material comes up, it's going to affect everyone, okay? Because it's now kind of in the space. So if somebody goes through a deep grieving process or a deep rage process or a deep terrified process, it's going to reverberate in the whole room. And the deeper the non-ordinary state is, the more expanded it is, okay? So the difference between facilitators and sitters in a breathwork workshop and Congregation in the samsadhani ritual is everybody in the room is going to feel and have some kind of connection with the person in the passage. So how it gets managed in one session is different from how it gets managed obviously in the other. But it's equally interesting to see how deep the countertransference can be. So the countertransference is pretty much what you said about when something inside a person reacts to the transference and or projections of the other person. And instead of saying, hey, you seem really upset, do you want to take a little time and maybe we can talk about this later? Or, hey, wait a minute, I don't think this is really about me. Maybe you're worried or concerned or angry about something else. Can you take a breath? So the person's ability to not slide into that countertransference and start reacting to. And these are deep, unconscious things. We can be halfway into it before we're going, wait a minute. And this is a marker of our evolution, is how quickly we catch ourselves. How quickly we catch ourselves. Do we only see it afterwards? Do we see it partway in? Oh, wait a minute. I'm in that same old story again. I'm now reacting, like we're screwing up, I'm angry, I'm feeling defensive, whatever it is, where I'm feeling needy and afraid that the person's going to be angry with me, another classic response, or I'm frightened of them and I need to please them, another classic response, right? I need to protect myself and defend myself and come back three times stronger than what they're giving me. These are all classic examples of countertransference to somebody who's reacting in a projection or a transference towards us. Does that make sense, everything I'm saying, yes? Yeah, it's, you know... I think it speaks to the idea of the difference between complicated and complexity. Because when you start looking at it from a realistic lens, you realize that not only are you not the person you think you are, but everybody who sees you, sees you as a different person. So you're like a thousand different people constantly. You know, it's, it's, it's, you gotta just take a moment and breathe it in. And especially when we start talking about non-ordinary states of consciousness, like we're on a whole nother realm of possibilities. And all of a sudden I started thinking about the maps and the Lycos or the, the people enabling people or people taking advantage of people, you know, it's, it's a really complex situation. Yes. Now, almost, almost without exception. people underestimate the power of the non-ordinary state of consciousness. It's as simple as that, you know. And even people who are working in it all the time, it's easy to forget how sensitive you are, how sensitive others are, you know. This is why, again, I'm using these two examples because they're the ones I'm familiar with and I feel have an area of expertise in. Stan Grof's work, There's really clear rules, you know. There's about people who are sitting and then the facilitators about what their role is, what they are doing and what they're not doing, okay, and how they're supporting and how they're stepping away and, you know, how to manage certain situations and what to do. And it's the same in our center. We have rules of the salaf. And they're really clear. They're posted on the wall. We read them at the opening of a hymn practice. People forget them. They get into the non-ordinary state and all the rules go out the window. The same way you can get on a plane and somebody has a few drinks. And the next thing you know, they won't wear their seatbelt and they want to change their seat. And, you know, they want to order something off the menu and they want to argue with the person in front of them and the kid that's getting their chair behind them. And before you know it, there's a whole hell of a world, right? And we have to remember that alcohol, cannabis, even all these legal things, these are legal in Canada, you know, they create a non-ordinary state of consciousness. And so we need to be mindful if we are with people who are taking alcohol and using cannabis. We need to be aware that they're in a non-ordinary state of consciousness. And we have to decide how deeply we want to become engaged in that. That's just a personal choice. Now, Different would be a setting, such as the therapeutic setting of the holotropic breathwork setting, gross work, or the spiritual slash religious setting of our center, the Sampradayana religion, spiritual tradition, and our particular center, where there's rules of the Salah. There's no talking. There's all the chain of command, the instructions, you know, no talking. I mean, we have people getting out of state and they want to skip around the room. They don't want to stay on their side of the room. Women and men are separated for very good reasons. If you ever want to ask about that. Okay. They get down to the healing area. They want to touch everything, explore everything. It's like a two-year-old. Okay. And the guardians of people who are on duty, the people in the healing area, sometimes have to work very hard to help them get back into, you know, This is the airplane. You need to sit down and be quiet and put your seatbelt on. You're in the appropriate position. And so it's for the safety and well-being of that person and for the well-being of everybody in the Salau. The Salau is the sanctuary. So there's rules. There's rules of the Salau, and they are there for very specific reasons. We have rules of the Salau for mediumship from people in and they have some background and some healing yes I am doing that for healing because you know my position please don't call yourself a healer okay you can call yourself a reiki master if that's what you are you can call yourself a massage therapist if that's what you are you can call yourself all other kinds of things according to your training and experience but kind of leave the healing thing out because that's a whole other kind of conversation I think we've had before might have to have a game In the future, who knows, you know? So that sensitivity that happens when you have a group that is in a non-ordinary state of consciousness together, it means everyone is going to feel it. We call it the current in the Sankhya Daini because that's what it feels like. It feels like the connectedness that exists between all beings. We agree on that, right? That there's an interconnectedness web of life. is something that connects all of us that we are connected to. You and me and the trees outside and the birds and the bees and the creatures in the ocean and everything. There's something that connects us, this universal force that connects everything, okay? Well, in a non-angry state of consciousness, you're infinitely more aware of that. So anything that, you know, like throwing the pebble in the pond, everything that makes the ripples, everything's going to feel it. And that's where we learn through Mesa, we learn to be firm. And we learn to hold the light and to be firm and to hold the faith. So whoever is in the passage or going through a difficulty, gets supported in that to the best of everyone's ability to create. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. It's... It's interesting to hear it in the context that you're saying as someone who has apprenticed and been in this particular environment for such a long time and has such experience. It seems that on some level, modern day science, which is awesome, They have no way to measure that. And so they just leave that part out. Like, this doesn't matter. Like, even though it could be intoxicating for you, like, we're just not going to measure that because we don't know how. Like, so you're not going to get the results or, you know, there's no way to do it. How do you manage what you can't measure? There are people actually studying it. Okay. And there are people studying it. And there's people, whether they're anthropologists or biologists or psychiatrists or scientists and some other, the neuroscientists are doing a great job. looking at neuroplasticity and altered states of consciousness and how that affects, you know, not just the person experiencing, but the people around. And so you can do a different level of scientific measurements. You can't really measure their blood or their blood pressure or things, the things they really want to be looking at, you know, something very measurable. You have to use a different yardstick. when you're working with non-ordinary states and a different concept of how you're going to be measuring what's happening there, you know? Right. Okay. Let's move to, you know, where we were starting to head to. Why are we talking about things like projections and transference and counter transference in the non-ordinary states of consciousness? And, you know, we've done some really good definitions and I want to talk about some very common dynamics that happen the people who are working in the space. So I'm talking about the guides, people who've trained to be a psychedelic guide. I'm talking about the researchers who are sitting with people and they've received permission to do research projects. And also the clinicians, the researchers, the guides, you know, this information is for ritual leaders, for everybody who's in the position. Okay. I'm going to talk about two of the biggest things to look for. And on one side, you know, here we are back to the Buddha in the middle way. Too tight and too loose. Okay. On the one hand, we have care too much. Okay. Care too much. The urge to rescue, save. The urge to not abandon people. The longing to get the power of healing other people. Caring too much. In that care too much is ignoring the self, caregiver burnout. Focusing so much on fixing, rescuing, saving, healing others, that you're not taking care of yourself. You don't have a balance in your life for your own well-being, physical, emotional, creative, spiritual, et cetera. Is that okay? Yeah. That's a problem. It's a problem. And needs to, all ritual leaders, caregivers, clinicians need to look at, do I care too much? Now there's an appropriate time to invest caring in, especially when you're launching something where you will be putting a lot of time and energy into something to get its roots down, you know, to dig the hole and put that in and water it and fertilize it until it gets its roots in and starts to grow. But it cares too much. Would you agree that's an issue in the psychedelic space right now? Yeah. I think that so far it does seem to be that there, the idea of apprenticeship has given way to the idea of certification. Like you can get a certification without apprenticeship and it's, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting. And I would say that that leads to these ideas of care too much or care too little. There's, there's no experience involved. There's a book which you're reading someone else's ideas of what may happen or what could have happened, but you're not You don't have the authority figure saying you're not allowed to talk right now. You're not allowed to do anything but watch. And you're lucky to get to do that right now. So just do that. That's a classic. Training in psychology, medicine, psychiatry, all those things. For me, the example I always use about you want to be a lifeguard and you want to read a book. Can you imagine only reading a book about water? You know, you read all the books written on water, okay, and pools, okay. But then how do you be a lifeguard? You actually have to learn how to swim properly. And then on top of learning how to swim properly, you can be a very good swimmer but still not know how to help somebody in the water, how to do the right thing, you know. So then you have to do your lifeguarding, right? I mean, I learned to swim. I did my Red Cross, whatever, and so on. Who knows, you know. But both my children, you know, it's one of the first things I did when they're, I'm a swimmer. So get them a few months old in the water. So they start young. They don't have an opportunity to get scared of it. And I mean, you have to have a healthy respect for water, you know, and there's a time when fear of it in all the way feet high is a normal, healthy reaction. Yeah. You'd be scared of the water in a pool. And, And so they did all their swimming lessons up to bronze medallion. And then my daughter decided to get her so she could be a lifeguard at summer camps. And she was. And now my little ones, my granddaughters, they're fabulous little swimmers. They're like motorboats. Okay. Put them in the water and they're boom. Fabulous little swimmers. And so you learn by doing it. They learn to swim by getting – I learned to scuba dive by, yes, taking the tests and reading the books and writing because you have a written exam. It's like driving. Can you imagine getting a driver's license without driving a car? You might call it a written test. No one would think that would be, but to get your driver's license here in Canada, you do a written test, and then you do your driving test, and you actually have to pass both of them. So you do need to know. What are red light, yellow light, green light? Who yields on which side at the stop sign? You know, all of these things that you learn from the book. But then you actually have to manage driving the car in traffic and parking and all those other things. So we can look into everyday life and say, well, yeah, it's normal that there's a learning part of it and then there's the experiencing part of it. And yet somehow in non-ordinary states, that's kind of sort of being left out in some, in some, but not all of what we're seeing in programs being developed. Okay. And it's just, it's just a really interesting, interesting situation. So on the one side, we have care too much and all the vulnerabilities, internal vulnerabilities and longings that lead to that. Okay. On the other side, we have care too little. Okay. Now, sometimes at the heart, this can be a self-protective mechanism that comes usually from issues of engulfment. It just does. Okay. The same way caring too much usually comes from issues of neglect or abandonment, insufficient attention to the self that you then learn to not pay attention to yourself and give it to others. Okay. So care too little can usually stem from engulfment. As a child in this culture, society, in this schoolyard, feeling that what's going, you have to protect yourself and put up a kind of a wall so that you don't let anything in. So caring too little in the non-ordinary state can become a problem where stuff such as counter-transference can pop for you in the next thing. You know, you're kicking the sitter who asked, who was demanding for things. So, you know, you always find a way to accommodate. But even if it's saying, no, we can't do that, but let's try doing that this way. Okay? No, you can't kick your sitter. We're going to hold these pillows for you. Okay? And you can try kicking those. Or how about if you go on your back and you start stomping your feet? on the floor and banging your arms and letting some sound out. So it's finding a way that's supportive to get that energy out without it doing anything on anybody else. Feelings of inadequacy is often underneath caring too little. Care too little because if I open up and try, I won't be adequate. I won't be able to do it. I won't know what to do. So I push it away and I care too little. So these are the two more common of the things that I see in these situations. Now, the care too little, and I can't tell you if it's a care too little or care too much. It certainly looks like a care too much. It looks way too much like a care too little, is if you look at the, now, Jules Evans always said, cut out to him his most recent All of you, please do watch the clip of Bill Maher's movie Rules from last week on the actor, I'm forgetting his first name, Perry, his death from an overdose. And he actually hits the nail right on the head in that clip. Okay. And what he has to say about what's happening. And here's a text. The doctor who was serving him and prescribing him wrote to another doctor, these two doctors who were supposedly prescribing him things. And one of the texts says, let's see how much this moron can pay. This is tragic. It is so far beyond disrespectful and unethical that it is criminal. And these men will be charged with criminal acts. the very thing they're supposed to do, which is care for their patients in a health appropriate way, not too much so that they, you know, destroy themselves or be inappropriate with their patients, but not too little that they disregard their health and their wellbeing to such a severe extent that they take that position of it's all for me and what I can get out of this situation, whether it's money or power or some other reward for me. This level of arrogance, is it narcissism? Is it, what is it? So these are the two, and they can come from many different things. As I said, it can come from inadequacy as much as it can come from arrogance, caring too little. Not getting involved, no, no, no. You see somebody fall on the sidewalk, no, no, no. Somebody else take care of it. Thanks. So it can come from arrogance, it can come from self-centeredness or greediness, and it can come from vulnerability and inadequacy. So a really important dynamics to look at as we go forward in this kind of current era of psychedelics and NPHMs is how to find our way ethically and responsibly to ourselves to the substances that we are working with. I can only speak for myself. The plants that I work with are heritage plants. They are protected by the United Nations. We consider them sacred. They are only used in ritual. They are not ever used in any other way. And looking on the flip side of it, in the psychedelics, we can see that they're genuine, good, scientists, researchers, and clinicians who are really trying to find a way that these substances can be used for benefit, for health and well-being. And then there's that whole other thing that's happened. It's about money and greed and me, the big hero, who's the healer. And that makes many of us really concerned that all of that is going to shut everything down again. I mean, I don't sincerely believe that it would shut us down, but that would be a huge tragedy if the selfishness of a few or the arrogance or the greed of a few can prevent the benefit for the many. Yeah, if history is the, if past relevance behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, then that's probably on the horizon on some level. Well, fingers crossed. The thing is, is maybe more patience is required. Right. You know, people, I don't know whether some people just don't believe me when I tell them that it took 17 years of working with Health Canada to obtain Section 56 exemption. And there was many different challenges of many different countries. It wasn't just obstinance in the corner of, you know, there was many different challenges with the situations in Brazil and then the Brazilian government and the interference of the American government, and there was layers and layers. There was the unfortunate and preventable death of an indigenous elder who was served, you know, I think we talked about that at some point, who was served by an Ecuadorian shaman who hadn't been properly coached on what is okay in our culture and what's not okay. You cannot tell people to stop taking their medications. That's where Participant or visitor screening is so essential. It's so essential. And again, back to what Bill Maher had to say, who, who, no, it's Matthew Perry, right? Who, knowing Matthew Perry's story in which he published a book talking about it, about how deeply addicted he'd been to other substances, you know, who would offer him more substances, you know, in such a cavalier, uncaring, selfish way And so this is where paying attention and understanding all the layers that are necessary for these entheogens and psychedelics to be able to go forward, whether it's in the spiritual, ritual setting, or whether it's in the therapeutic, clinical setting, the research setting, there needs to be an impeccability. There needs to be a standard of care. There needs to be ethics. There needs to be accountability. And I get very, unfortunately and sadly, unpopular by saying there has to be consequences. There has to be consequences. You know, it's really uncomfortable for a lot of people to talk about the problems. If we look down, we can see there's been cover-ups about ethical problems. There's been cover-ups about problems in the research protocols. There's been a lack of full disclosure about some things, right? Yeah. Well, you know, that's not going to wash. That's where it's sticking. It's sticking because of those things. If everybody was honest with their research, if they were honest with the problems that they were facing, if they were honest about, oh, my God, this happened, and we're now looking at it and we see that we need to do this, this, and this to ensure that that does not happen again, right? Right. If we see that, we can go, oh, okay, the industry is going to correct itself. But if we see simply cover-ups and more cover-ups and lack of accountability and lack of consequences until it makes the community or the government enforce consequences because they themselves have not governed themselves correctly. I don't know, what do you think about that? It's a hard question. Sometimes I feel like we just don't have the proper tools to thoroughly understand what's happening in these states and that we're not sure Who is being healed? If you don't have the right training and maybe you're not aware. Let's say, for example, in a hypothetical, an individual is sitting with someone who may have had a traumatic sexual experience and that person just got divorced. Is that person in a state to be helping that person, especially under an altered state of conscience? I don't know. Well, yes, they could be if they're aware. There's two things in place. If they're aware of their own situation and if they have ethically the ability to step back and say, hmm, am I the right person to be doing this? Should I be asking a colleague? So if that thing is in place, and the second thing that needs to be in place is colleague support. Being able to say to a colleague, okay, I have this situation. Give me some feedback. What do you think? And then listening to what the colleague has to say, which may be, you know what, honey, step back. Yeah. This isn't the right moment for you. You serve for the higher good if you step back. Knowing when to step back, knowing when to hand over. This is essential in ethics. Yep. Look at President Biden. Okay. It's a little persuading. I don't know who went in the back door to have a chat with him. Okay. Or who he was on Zoom with. Okay. But you know what? Maybe the moment was the right moment. We don't know. But he did the right thing. He knew when his own personal ambitions had to take backseat for what was best for the country. And what was best for the country was for him to recognize that his health was frail. Yeah. And that he needs to take care of himself and finish out his term and allow someone younger and stronger with all that vim and vigor to go in and fight the good fight for their principles and their platform. Right? Too bad the other party wasn't doing the same thing. Oh, dear. Maybe I shouldn't say that publicly. here up north in Canada it kind of looks like that might benefit for the higher good and everyone too you know but that ability to have the ego death of stepping aside stepping back because it's a big ego death you know to say no I've got to step back somebody else needs to step forward or I need to hand this over that takes courage that takes dignity dignity courage integrity These words seem so slim to find these days because ego and arrogance and self-importance, let's just put it all under the umbrella of self-importance, is taking so much space. And so dignity and courage and integrity, those three things are so important right now. And if our community and our government was seeing that or your government or the governments around, If they're seeing integrity and courage and dignity, then they're probably going to get on board with what we're doing. But if they see arrogance and they see wild claims and they see cover-ups, of course they're not going to trust. Respect and trust are decreased each time we find out that there's been a cover-up, a lack of disclosure. of what's important to disclose. Obviously, we don't let everything hang out. I mean, that's, you know, just a diamond place for that. Is it making some sense what I'm saying, that those three qualities are what's essential? I'll share an autobiographical story. You know, in 2010, after like 10 years of having a relationship with the office of controlled substance and and a first name basis with the directors and senior staff. And I realized that I reached the end of the road and most of our board and members have reached the end of the road with our then Brazilian affiliate. There was just in the beginning, a different culture, different language, not knowing the language, a new thing. And, you know, people hiding things from us and covering things up. But over those first few years, things became obvious and, more so and et cetera, and then try to deal with them and try to bring ethics in and try to set up situations in which stuff can be managed and kind of none of it worked. And so reach the end of the road where thank you for all the good things, but can no longer accompany. And that's the attitude too, that I think we all need to have when we come to the end of the road with something, a business situation. Thank you for the good things. This is closure. Got to end it here. I have the unenviable task of going and sitting in the office with the director of the office control substance and saying, we're closing with our affiliate. I'll be going back to herself, find a new affiliate. And so I basically had legal counsel prepare me as if I was going on the stand in front of the judge and jury, because who knows what hung in the balance, who knows how they were going to take this, but I had no choice. I had to do it and I had to do it in person. I made my appointment, and I go in, and we do our greetings and everything, and I say, well, I'm here today because, you know, over time, we've become aware of serious ethical challenges, you know, and just kind of no longer a company. We've tried all the things that we can try, as far as dependency use of cannabis and cannabis use are a big problem in that particular branch, which We've always been single sacrament. I am. And single sacrament is what Minister Ernie Owen, who created the Sampradayini said, yes, he said about cannabis. Yes, this is a power plant. It needs to be respected, but you don't put it in this community. It doesn't belong with Sampradayini. That's the teaching of the master. You don't mix those plants. And so we're very clear on that. And I've been very clear with that on the government to the get-go. So I sit there and I feel like I'm basically down to my underwear. Okay. Okay. I have nothing to stand behind except my own personal integrity and the code of ethics that our board had promised to follow. And I'm thinking, you know, they may take all our application and just rip it up and say, no, at least I had to do it, you know? So I'm sitting there like vibrating with all of this. And, um, She looks at her staff and she says, put your pencils down. And she said, this took enormous courage. She said, I can't thank you enough for doing this. You absolutely did the right thing. You know, and now we know we can really trust you. When they finally granted the, when they granted the exemption, they granted it in principle in 2006. And that's what they said to me at the time in 2006. We're granting this because we trust you and we see who you are. We see who you are. And therefore, we're trusting this. You've brought us all the science. You've brought us all the facts. You've done everything you can do. And I would go humbly asking. I wasn't suing them. I wasn't being rude to them. I wasn't being arrogant with them. I was going humbly asking. okay, with all the science and all the facts. When it was finally granted in 2017, I get a phone call from a senior policy manager in the house, and he says, hi, he identifies himself. And he says, I have the great pleasure of telling you that your exemption is minimal. You will be, yeah. And he says, I want to remind you, I've been on your file for 17 years. It hit my desk seven years ago, and I watch and step by step everything, congratulations. And so I want to say to all the people out there who think that, you know, just because they took some substances, you know, and here's a perfect example of projections, and thank you, Mark Davis, for your great message. All good vibrations back to you and yours. Here's the perfect example of the people who, remember I was talking about bias projection and psychological projections, the people who take substances and they have fabulous experiences. I don't question that. They may have indeed. They take it three times, ten times a day. They now assume that everybody is going to have those experiences because they don't have the apprenticeship. And they go out and start serving people and encouraging people. We do not proselytize or solicit in the Sankhya Bani. It is against our principles. It is the exact opposite. It's like the old gurus. You've got to come and sit at the gate. We don't even open the door until we figure out who you are and whether we're going to open the door, okay? And so that's how serious it is. This is the unconscious projection. I had a fabulous experience and saw whatever, And now everybody I serve it to is going to feel the same way. And it's going to imagine the same thing. And we should be, you know, putting LSD in the water so everyone can have these fabulous experiences. Okay. No, that's projection. And the lack of apprenticeship, true apprenticeship, working humbly with elders, you know, we have the great blessing of people, in our membership and often in senior membership position as elders have come from long term apprenticeship in indigenous traditions so it could be fire keeping it could be pipe rituals it could be different aspects sweat lodges all these beautiful indigenous teachings and they will say I got to stand by the elder for four years just holding his pipe with his feather and passing and observing and years and years and years of being an apprentice, you know, and you will find this in Buddhist, in Zen, in Hindu, in indigenous. You'll find this in all the old traditions, this apprenticeship where you have to respect the chain of command, what Natsuki calls it, the eldering, the mentoring, the teachers, You have to respect them and you have to be humble and learn and ask questions. And that's all I'm going to say about that. It's an amazing story to think about the trials and tribulations and that's what makes us often makes or breaks something is the willingness to continue to find the way. The obstacle is the way is what they say sometimes, right? Yes. Yes. I think of how many generations of women fought to get the vote. Yep. Equal rights. I remember going into a meeting in Brazil with the elder women of the line we were still connected to. And I'm sitting with three of the most senior women in that line okay and I'm telling them are you aware that this year after 26 years of the women of brazil fighting in the courts 26 years they thought to have equal rights and the law finally got changed so no longer is the man under law the head of the family well under the law a woman could not make a decision for herself or her children if she wanted to like go back to school or change her job or You know, she wasn't allowed to. The man had to make that decision. Now, probably in a lot of families, they didn't observe that, but it was still the law. And they said, they were amazed. No, the law got changed. The man's not the head of the family. Very patriarchal still. And so when we think of all the years that people have fought for, you know, we can go into story after story after story, the civil rights movements, in your country how many years decades centuries right still being fought still being fought and so this instant enlightenment this instant I'm a healer this instant I'm gonna you know the whole world is gonna psychedelics is gonna heal everything it's like no that's not my experience there's some people who should not be taking them There's many people who should not be taking them. Yeah. For many different reasons, other techniques of non-ordinary states of consciousness will suit them better. You know, by the time I came to the Santo Daime, I had already been, what, 30 years in transpersonal study? And, you know, I was, you know, in the ashram at age 21 and with the Buddhists and the three-week silent retreats and And all of this training, training, training, training, training, and then five years transpersonal trainings. And only then was I ready to start drinking wine. Only then was I ready. After decades and decades of spiritual training, transpersonal training, then I was ready to start. So maybe we have to practice lifetimes before we're ready. Yeah. Who knows? You know, who knows? Well, it's been grand. Fabulous. I hope that, you know, a few times I looked at your face and I was like, oh, we're just sad. You have a sad face, a thoughtful face, an inspired face. Thank you. I'm used to the facial expressions that you make now, and I was like, oh. It's a challenging topic. It is. Would we be serving the community if we didn't discuss it from time to time? I prefer meaningful. It is not our place to inform, educate, and encourage. I'm not condemning anybody. I hope that I'm informing, educating, encouraging people. Please, if you feel called into working with substances, really look deep inside of yourself. Make sure you get a good ethics training. Make sure that you get, you know, experiential work in non-ordinary states. Make sure that whoever your teachers are, that they are living the principles that they're trying to teach you. And if not, then sit down and question them. Yeah. Sit down and question them. Don't just me. I don't want to get a bad mark. Yeah. often think of the question mark is like a scythe you know just cuts things away and so the more questions you have like the more you're kind of cutting away at your reasoning yeah you're actually being in courage and dignity yeah that's what you do and watch out for the people that project on you when you start asking questions oh yeah So interesting. You know, personal favorite is the patriarchal, like, how dare I question men about men's stuff. How dare you? Yeah. Therefore, I must be aggressive and a bitch and all these things people call strong women. No, no. I've been, I won't tell you who called me that, but somebody pretty well-known in the Ayahuasca community called me the Margaret Thatcher of the Santo Daime. I don't know whether to be offended or find it hilarious. I usually find it hilarious. Yeah, that's the only way to see it, I think. Yeah, hilarious. Take the good things and blow off the red. Okay, it's been grand. It's always a pleasure. Thank you. Such a great host, asks such good questions, makes such a inviting and welcoming space for your guests and your listeners so I'm going to wish you a beautiful rest of your day see you next month hopefully and I think you should post a picture of the view from your home or your backyard especially if it's got some of those giant redwoods in it okay you don't have to show anything that you know is too personal that discloses your personal location. I really think you should give people a slice of your new vibration. That's a good idea. I think I will. It's the rolling hills and the big trees and just such a welcoming, playful atmosphere that is... I get goosebumps when I think about it. I know I'm in the right spot. I know that area because all my years of training with Stan Grof was always... North of San Francisco, up in Napa Valley. There's so much history here, especially in the ideas we're talking about. I can't help but smile when I walk outside every day and just say thank you. Well, please share a small glimpse with us. And I give you a big hug and a beautiful rest of your day. Right back at you. Okay, until the next time. Okay, everybody. For those listening, thank you so much for hanging out with us today. Do yourself a favor and go to the links below and check out Dr. Jessica's books. They're phenomenal. If you enjoy the conversations we have been having, I can't recommend these books enough. They are... like cartography for the mind and they have helped me in so many ways. And she is an incredible GM that's helped lots of people. And she's put it all in these books. A large part of her ideas are in these books and you can learn a lot from them. So I would encourage everyone to go who's listening in the sound of my voice and pick up a copy. So that's all we have for today, ladies and gentlemen. I hope you have a beautiful day. Aloha.