Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. Hope everybody's having a beautiful day. Hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing. I also hope that you're in the mood to learn about a few things that you may not have already been thinking about. Or maybe you have been thinking about them. You're not exactly sure what's happening. I got an incredible guest for you today, the one and only Jack Gorslin. And for those of you who may not know, I just want everyone to get excited because what's happening is we're getting ready to dive deep into the critical and often hidden issues shaping the future of our world. My guest today is Jack Gorslin, investigative journalist who brings a sharp, uncompromising lens to some of the most complex and controversial topics of our time. From the front lines of the psychedelic renaissance to the battlegrounds of labor rights and education reform, Jack navigates the murky waters of public policy with precision and fearless curiosity. With a career that spans hard-hitting investigative reporting for the Boston Institute of Nonprofit Journalism and thought-provoking contradictions to MG Magazine, Double Blind, and lots of others, Jack cuts through the noise, bringing the truth to light in areas where others fear to tread. His work isn't just about reporting, it's about challenging the status quo, shining a light on the politics between the aisles and beyond, the uncovering stories that demand to be heard. Today, we'll explore Jack's unique perspective on the rapidly evolving landscape of psychedelic legalization and undercurrents of organized labor and the future of public policy. buckle up ladies and gentlemen I was talking with jack previously and he's got some amazing stories he's got his ear to the ground and I think there's gonna be a lot of cool stuff that you may have heard may not have heard or definitely want to weigh in on so jack thanks for being here today how are you I am good thank you so much for having me george I really appreciate it and uh I'm excited to dig in uh yeah I yeah um thank you Yeah, man, I'm stoked you're here before we got started. I was, I, I had told you when I want to tell the audience that it's my great pleasure to host people who are passionate about doing what they want to do. And it's so interesting to me, the way in which psychedelics or maybe this new consciousness that's emerging brings us together. And when you're passionate about something, it shows. And I think it shows too, in your work, especially for psychedelics, man, you're right there in the heart of it. And we can just jump into it, man. Uh, You are right there in Boston. There's a lot of decrim stuff going on. What have you been working on, man? Yeah, so I've been covering the psychedelic renaissance, specifically here in Massachusetts, and that's kind of extended to a number of different states in New England and nationwide over the last six months in particular. But I covered my first psychedelic-related event last fall in late October for... covering a Bay Staters for Natural Medicine fall forging event over in Jamaica Plain. And for reference, I've wanted to be a journalist since I was twelve years old. I told my grandma when I was a kid, God rest her soul, that I wanted to go to Brown someday and that I wanted to eventually go to Columbia Journalism School and be a big time reporter. And she joked with me at the time that if I moved to New England, that they would turn me into a hippie liberal. And here I am covering probably one of the most liberal topics. Not quite, I would say that it's, and we will get into that, but I think it's one of the most unifying issues out there. But I, yeah, I was... honored to be able to start working for the Boston Institute for Nonprofit Journalism and by extension, Talking Joints Memo, which is New England's largest cannabis-specific news outlet. Boston Institute for Nonprofit Journalism, Binge, to put it the short way. Co-founder Chris Perrone is also the founder and owner of Talking Joints Memo. And when I first connected with them, I was looking to cover education issues, and one thing led to another, and they needed somebody to cover the psychedelics movement. And while I'd been interested in the topic previously, and I'm a strong advocate for behavioral health care reform on a number of levels in this country from personal experience and those of family members and loved ones, I wasn't particularly up to date on how robust the movement here in Massachusetts had really become before I'd even covered it. So for those who aren't familiar, Massachusetts has currently there are eight cities across Massachusetts that have enacted what are known as local law enforcement kind of deprioritization measures. You might read that this is decriminalization. And I want to give a shout out to a number of folks in the legal scholar world, specifically Dr. Mason Marks of Harvard, who I think would probably categorize deprioritization under the umbrella of decriminalization. But essentially what a local law enforcement deprioritization measure is, is that the local city government and the local police department, essentially they sign a municipal resolution at a city council meeting declaring that they're no longer going to prosecute or arrest go after or basically spend any more enforcement resources or slightly less on certain psychedelic drug related possession, et cetera. So there are eight cities in Massachusetts that have passed some form of deprioritization measure. The cities are Cambridge and Somerville. Somerville, Massachusetts being the first in twenty twenty and Cambridge being shortly thereafter. Also Salem, Massachusetts, East Hampton, North Hampton, Medford and Provincetown, which is out on the Cape. So all of those have passed some sort of deprioritization measure. And three of those have actually come out and endorsed what I'm about to talk about next, which is the statewide ballot measure that's up for vote here in Massachusetts in November. The bill is known as an act relative to the taxation and regulation of natural psychedelic substances, I believe. And it was brought about beginning last year when an organization known as New Approach PAC, PAC being Political Action Committee, which previously helmed statewide legalization efforts both in Oregon and Colorado. Those are two very different bills, and I can dig into that in a little bit as well. Sure. New Approach PAC have their eyes set on Massachusetts for a number of different reasons after the successful passage of the Natural Medicine Health Act in Colorado back in, I believe, twenty twenty one. And for reference, obviously, you know, when people think of Boston, I think a lot of different things. But if Harvard isn't one of the top five, ten things that you think of, you probably don't know Boston very well. And I would argue and I think a lot of people would argue that that Boston is one of the most important cities for higher education on the planet. I refer to it and I've heard Boston Mayor Michelle Wu refer to it as well as kind of the Mecca of higher education in the Western world. So a lot of high quality, higher academic institutions coupled with essentially one of the key hubs for the birthplace of the revolution back in the sixties and seventies with the Harvard Psychedelics Club, which was founded by then Harvard faculty Dr. Timothy Leary and the spiritual guru and activist himself, Ram Dass, whose former name is admittedly escaping me. But obviously this was, you know, a place where the perceived failings of the revolution kind of at least took off. Obviously, Timothy Leary has a complicated legacy and I'm not here to necessarily litigate that. We can dig into that a little bit later with what's going on here on the state level movement. um but massachusetts is also home to a very rich uh and very influential biotech sector uh obviously being adjacent of all these fantastic higher education institutions I actually saw today that boston was recently rated the seventh best city in the country for entrepreneurs and I believe even higher up on that for biotech specific entrepreneurs so this is a place where a lot of innovation is happening and New Approach, by all accounts, saw that trend and saw Massachusetts kind of as a key or kind of a gateway to make kind of a national jump, at least in my understanding of it, as one of the leading political advocacy organizations for the psychedelic renaissance, politically speaking, moving forward across the country. So they came about in, I guess, around April, started to take some meetings, both with activists associated with Bay Staters for Natural Medicine. We can dig into some of that in a little bit as well. But also with representatives of the Boston Psychedelic Research Group. Obviously, MAPS is originally founded in Boston, and there's a number of Rick Doblin-adjacent researchers and academics that are involved here. And not to mention Harvard, who launched a groundbreaking collaborative project between the Divinity School, the law school, and their school of public health policy through the Petrie-Flom Center, where I believe health law and bioethics is the exact title of the Petrie-Flom Center. So there's a number of different incentives for Massachusetts to be kind of the next place. Not to mention, if you look at the history of Massachusetts, this is a state that has long been kind of the tastemaker for very progressive social policy leaps in this country from the state to kind of a national wave of similar laws enacted. I could take it all the way back to sixteen thirty six with the founding of the Boston Common, America's first public park. Eighteen forty eight was the founding of the Boston Public Library. I think it's eighteen forty eight. If I get these dates off for a couple of years, please excuse me and I will issue the necessary correct corrections when we put this out. the recorded version, but Massachusetts was the first state in the U.S. to legalize gay marriage, marriage equality laws, I should say, as well as universal health care for all residents, which actually was enacted under former Governor Mitt Romney and is often known as kind of the precursor to what we know as Obamacare or the Affordable Health Care Act. So Massachusetts long has this history of taking an emerging policy progressive idea or progressive public policy concept or theory and putting it in action in a way that becomes, you know, noteworthy enough to be modeled in a number of different states thereafter. So all of those things, along with a number of different trends, you know, throughout the US regarding healthcare, you know, are a large part of why I would argue that the future of the Renaissance itself, politically speaking, I guess more specifically I would argue that statewide widespread statewide psychedelic decriminalization measures the future of those measures likely runs through massachusetts in my estimation and I think it's important to distinguish that I don't mean all psychedelics I think that psilocybin and particularly the movement that's cropped up in new york led by you know a very diverse coalition of of groups that they don't have ballot measures. So they really have to go through the legislature and find allies in the House and the Senate. And I think that they've found a real sweet spot with this idea of a psilocybin personal license carrying card of sorts as part of their proposed bill. I would encourage folks to look into New Yorkers for Mental Health Alternatives, which is the group that's leading kind of that charge and has the umbrella coalition underneath of a number of really interesting groups, including the Brooklyn Psychedelic Society, the Psychedelic Assembly, the Western New York, I think, Mycology Society or Psychedelics Club. But that said, the future of, say, Ibogaine decriminalization, which is included on this year's ballot for this bill in Massachusetts, or specifically the decriminalization of peyote, which I know is mescaline, to be more specific, as it's worded in the bill, which I know is a controversial topic with a number of folks across the decrim movement. I would argue that While there can and likely will be a number of successful legalization movements, I'm not discounting the possibility of statewide decriminalization measures elsewhere in other states. I think the folks in Washington have a really great bill that I'd love to come back to later. But by and large, Massachusetts and this very sizable and generous statewide decrim measure If this bill does not pass, which I remain fairly confident that it will based on the folks that I've spoken to and the momentum that the campaign seems to have, then I would find it, you know, at least I would assume that there would be other legislatures, you know, in other states adjacent to Massachusetts, like Connecticut, et cetera, that have already shot down one decriminalization measure previously in the state house. They might have a harder time including those broad decrim measures in any proposed legislation moving forward. But to dig a little bit into... Sorry, no, you had a question. No, I'm picking up what you're putting down here. And I think the background is incredibly important. If the best predictor of future behavior is past relevant behavior, then there's some questions. And one of those questions might be sometimes the movement is its own worst enemy. Sometimes the splintering that happens inside that movement with these different sort of – groups coming together, trying to solve a similar thing. Sometimes there's some infighting in there. And it seems to me that that's kind of what's happening with some of these different groups over where you're at, according to some of your writing. Yeah. So I appreciate you redirecting there. So yeah, I mentioned that the first event that I covered was a base theaters for natural medicine event. And if you go and you kind of Google most of the mainstream media coverage that's been put out there about psychedelic legalization efforts in Massachusetts over the last few years, you'll likely read something about Bay Staters or read a quote from one of Bay Staters co-founders, a guy named James Davis. And just to give a little bit more background about what I've been able to uncover, earlier this year, I was able to uncover shortly after a pretty groundbreaking hearing that happened in the State House in late March, regarding the bill that's on tap on the ballot this November, I was able to uncover evidence from an email that Bay Stater's co-founder, James Davis, sent to the Assistant Attorney General of Massachusetts, essentially attempting to introduce them to representatives from a newly formed opposition campaign to the ballot measure led by prominent prohibitionist advocate, Kevin Sabet, as well as a number of organizations on the state level, including the Massachusetts Psychiatric Society, which we can get into that a little bit later, as well as the Massachusetts Medical Society and the Massachusetts Municipal Association. So the involvement of Bay Staters from an early stage in the localized decriminalization or deprioritization movement, and then this kind of abrupt turn, seemingly so, to siding with the opposition campaign trying to take down the state ballot measure was really shocking to a number of folks across the movement that weren't aware. And shortly after I reported that news, and again, verifiable through an email that is available to the public and public record as it was sent to the assistant attorney general, I was contacted by a number of activists who expressed concern that Davis, you know, might have been impersonating U.S. Marine veteran and former Bay Staters, you know, affiliated advocate Mike Patello. Mike Patello is a U.S. Marine veteran who originally resided in Carlisle, Massachusetts, and was one of the co-founders of a now defunct organization here in Massachusetts known as New England Veterans for Plant Medicine. But Patello was involved in a number of capacities, you know, initially in terms of, you know, approving social media promotion, et cetera. But it's important to note that Patello never had access to the social media, nor did he ever have access to the organizational email. So, you know, over a period of investigation, I was able to uncover more than, you know, I think, fourteen different instances in which Davis wrote emails to media members, state-level and local politicians, other activists declining invitations to speak on Botello's behalf, impersonating him, and, you know, also directing one state staffer from Botello, who Davis was impersonating, back to Davis for a job reference. So I feel like I'm getting a little too into the weeds here, but throughout that process, Botello has maintained not only that he never gave Davis explicit permission to impersonate him, but also that one of the emails that we found was sent from a Yahoo email address registered in Mike's name, which Botello has further substantiated. He never created nor ever had access to or was aware of. So we've only been able to uncover about a dozen and a half instances of outright impersonation. But the potential for further impersonation having occurred through the Yahoo email address is pretty likely, I would argue. And it's also, to backtrack a little bit here, it's important to note that prior to reporting on essentially the Stolen Valor situation, I'd spoken to nearly three dozen former Bay Staters affiliated activists across a number of states, not only Massachusetts, but Connecticut, New York, and Washington state as well, all who detailed a troubling pattern of leadership behavior described allegedly as toxic, emotionally manipulative or abusive. I actually was able to get in touch with one of Bay Stater's former co-founders and treasurer who informed me that she'd stopped working with Davis over a year and a half ago due to what she described as a pattern of emotionally and verbally abusive behavior. So the narrative that had been kind of spun about this individual and this organization being at the forefront of these decriminalization and legalization efforts in itself is a bit of a misleading narrative because there were a number of very involved and very dedicated activists adjacent to the Bay Stater's umbrella, including the folks in Decrim, Massachusetts, which had around the time of Bay Stater's kind of emergence in the movement, Decriminalization of Massachusetts at the state level chapter, had had a pretty significant falling out with the national level organizers over essentially the inclusion or non-inclusion of peyote in the organizations guiding decriminalization priorities. And I'm not here to litigate the merits of including or not including masculine or peyote. uh I I will defer to those folks and uh advocates on either sides of that discussion uh to detail that a little bit further but what we saw uh slowly but surely you know over the course of a couple of years uh is a is a rapid consolidation of power within the grassroots movement that led you know a number of activists that experience uh you know prevalent behavior or mistreatment uh from you know james davis in particular uh to either kind of back away uh without him necessarily wanting to stir up uh too much out of you know fear of both derailing the movement but also fear of reprisal um as well as uh you know a number of folks who just decided that being involved in activism wasn't worth it uh if it entailed uh some of the uh experiences that they were going to continue to have to have if they were going to be working with this individual and so um the remarkable uh thing you know about this entire saga really I think trying to find the right way to put this uh isn't isn't so much that um the movement in massachusetts has gotten so far uh under the guidance of this one organization, but really the movement in Massachusetts has made it so far in spite of some of the troubling behavior and outright alleged fraud that has been allegedly committed by this individual. And I'd like to flash forward to kind of the fallout from and some of the updates that I have regarding uh this this particular saga and then I would love to be able to pivot and talk a little bit more about some of the groups here in massachusetts and the larger factors at play but uh so in mid-june we were reported through talking joints memo uh the the stolen valor allegations against davis um it's also important to note that uh davis at the time uh indicated to longtime psychedelic journalist sasha cisco that while they hadn't uh spoken to mike in a number of months they denied the allegations and indicated that patello had given them explicit permission to impersonate them um now it's important to to note in the context of that that um Patello actually moved out of the state of Massachusetts back in December and ceased working with New England Veterans for Plant Medicine and Bay Staters entirely because he now resides in South Carolina. So he had informed James of this and informed the coalition of this and had taken the appropriate steps back. But if you flash forward to early April of this year, one of the emails that we uncovered was an email sent to the state legislature. Actually, it was a couple of days before the March twenty sixth hearing this year. And that is available online to view. I can provide links to whatever necessary after the stream. But in that email, not only did Davis address the state committee, the joint committee using Botello's name and seemingly as Botello, but he also included and submitted written testimony to the committee in Botello's name. uh listing patello's former carlisle address which davis knew bell patello hadn't resided at for at least four months having moved at the beginning of december so even if there was prior approval to write certain things in patello's name which patello maintains he was only ever he required final approval of anything that was written using his name and likeness um even if there was prior approval uh provided of some sort four months after knowing that patella had moved uh as a smoking gun of its own in its own right um so we report on the stolen valor situation of sorts uh in mid-june and davis indicates to sasha cisco that uh not only had um not only had he not spoken with patella in a number of weeks uh but that uh he wished patella well and didn't know where these allegations were coming from flash forward a couple of weeks after that and uh A couple of additional outlets picked up the story, particularly the great Michelle Luke of Double Wine Magazine, as well as the good folks at Benzinga. And, you know, covered a brief summary of what we've reported. And a number of other activists reached out to Davis seeking clarification or some sort of explanation regarding the allegations made. And very notably, a story changed. So. rather than saying like he said to cisco shortly after we initially reported the story davis then alleged uh that not only had patello had they stopped working I phrased this the proper way um alleged that uh shortly before uh the original article came out they'd received credible accusations credible accusations that patello had been accused of um the sex trafficking of women as well as having been convicted of domestic violence. Now, I worked closely with Double Blind Magazine to fact check these claims. And without going into detail, I can confirm that we were able to rule out these allegations as credible whatsoever. so you see uh uh you know a pretty detailed attempt to distract from the allegations at hand by essentially you know trying to create some sort of you know broader chaotic story or narrative uh essentially to limit uh potentially you know the spreading of of the story itself um I I you know have been in contact since that story uh broke initially with an you know an additional uh number of activists the list of of contacts that I've had that have come forward regarding you know some uh pattern of negative or or uh you know allegedly toxic behavior by davis um is now up to sixty across six states so you know if you look at some of the media coverage that has been had prior to you know prior to uh you know these rev allegations coming to light uh you would think that this is somebody who's brought in um done a lot more good for the renaissance at whole than in reality they have and I would argue that um ultimately again I think that you know this movement making it as far as it has in this state is a testament to the very diverse coalition of individual activists across the state itself as well as the interest in the potential for psychedelic therapies and just increased access in general from the Massachusetts electorate and legislature alike. Yeah, in some ways it sounds like a psychedelic trip itself. Like in the beginning, there's like this ego death, but you have to face it. You know what I mean? Like there's this one entity inside your own mind that conquers everything and is taking kind of control. But yeah, it's a fascinating story. And I think it is a testament to something bigger than ourselves to see it moving forward. You had mentioned you wanted to pivot and talk about some of the groups that are doing some amazing things over there. Maybe we can go down that path. yeah so um there is currently a campaign in operation um leading the ballot leading the uh you know advocating for and campaigning uh you know in favor of it's now known as question four uh the psychedelic ballot measure um and uh like I mentioned before they're you know backed by new approach political action committee as well as a number of different or you know adjacent psychedelic power brokers of sorts right uh they're also being consulted by an organization called dewey square group uh political lobbyists and consultant organizations based in boston but has a pretty far-reaching political uh influence across a number of different uh you know sectors and industries and areas of political uh activism and advocacy uh I would argue uh it's important to note that dewey square has been involved in democratic national politics since the earliest days of the Clinton administration, and I would argue is probably one of the three to five most powerful political lobbyist groups on the planet. There might be some that dispute that, but their involvement with this ballot measure is noteworthy, to put it lightly. It's also noteworthy because New Approach had been involved in, as I mentioned before, previous legalization efforts, both in Oregon and Colorado, and in both those cases had been aided in their lobbyists and consulting efforts by an organization called the Healing Advocacy Fund, which is still playing an active role in kind of the rollout process in Colorado now that they've established certain regulations for the licensing and legal parameters of their state legal therapeutic services model. And it is important to note that there's been a departure there because of not necessarily because of, but there had been allegations from activists in Oregon and Colorado of, of, uh, you know, being iced out post passage. Uh, I know that it had been found that the healing advocacy fund had taken a number of closed door meetings with members of the Colorado legislature. And I know that certain portions of the bill that were passed back in the natural medicine health actor, I believe that's what it's called. Um, that those measures have been changed in pretty substantial ways, including the licensing and fee structure, which last I spoke to one Denver-based activist and psychedelic facilitator, the newest licensing and facilitator guidelines for registration come out to about fifty two thousand dollars just to be licensed in Colorado. Comparatively, a number of different medical professionals pay significantly lower licensing and registration fees. I'm not here to talk about whether or not anyone was involved in that process and why they are involved in the Massachusetts process, but the departure from the Involvement in Healing Advocacy Fund and the involvement of Dewey Square Group is notable to say the least. So underneath kind of that understanding uh there's a number of unaffiliated organizations uh that have cropped up including one recently that you know known as the entheogen melanin collective uh a group that uh was founded by a a pair of previously involved or base theaters adjacent activists uh one in particular uh imani turnbull brown is a dorchester massachusetts native um and u.s navy veteran who uh is um had previously, you know, been heavily involved, um, or at least briefly involved, you know, with a number of base daters, um, you know, events planning. Um, and sorry, I'm losing my train of thought, George. No worries. We were just talking about all the different groups right there. Yes. And another one that comes to mind is parents for plant medicine, which is actually founded by, um, a former base daters volunteer of the year award winner, uh, Jamie Mori. She's a mom of four from the South Shore of Massachusetts, I believe Marshfield to be specific, and kind of entered this movement as a mother seeking alternative treatment for her children. She has a history of a neuroinflammatory disorder in her family known as PANS, PANDA, that has affected a few of her kids, as well as a husband who has struggled with PTSD for due to his military service. So this is a mother who tried everything that she could to get her kids the very best care and found her way to psychedelics and has now kind of emerged as a leading voice in the Renaissance here on the state level. And it's also necessary to point out that Maury also currently serves as the community education community outreach coordinator here in for the Yes on Four campaign. And I apologize. No, it's all good. It's mesmerizing to me to think about the way in which, you know, we call it the human mycelium. On some level, psychedelics has a way of finding local leaders that have faced adversity in their own life and come to psychedelics as the last resort answer to solve their problems, be it PTSD, be it with childhood behavior, their own behavior, facing trauma, and, you It's it is mind blowing to me. And I think that is the reason why these ballot measures get so much steam behind them is it's it's not. While there may be PACs included, you're talking about housewives and truck drivers and school teachers and academia. Like everybody's coming together on a level that we haven't seen before. There's been all this division. And look, I don't need to tell you as a reporter that. Yeah. If it bleeds, it leads, or you cut with a knife a division to sell stories. But here's this sort of chemical or this set of plant medicines that's controversial, but the only thing that's not controversial is it's bringing people together from all the places. I'm sure you have seen stories of wide people from different areas coming together talking about this. Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. yeah no thank you yeah I I agree and and I mentioned this when we got started but I really believe that the psychedelic renaissance politically speaking is will go down as one of the most generationally impactful socio-economical forward movements of the twenty first century and I think there's that doesn't necessarily mean that it'll be entirely successful I just think that when it's all said and done this will go down as one of the most impactful movements um and I think there's a number of emerging trends in america's perception of health care and wellness so worth noting uh that according to a twenty twenty two poll from the kaiser family foundation that ninety percent of americans believe the us is in the midst of mental health crisis forty six percent of americans almost half of all americans have a family member or a close friend who have struggled with substance abuse or addiction yeah fifty two percent of americans have been diagnosed with at least one chronic health condition before covet that numbers exploded yeah roughly fifty and then you know also roughly fifty three percent of americans with a diagnosed mental health condition are not currently receiving treatment, even though they have health insurance. So we're witnessing an awareness of a serious crisis in this country that more and more people don't have affordable access to high quality care or care at all for that matter. And so the potential for a more affordable pathway to foundationally you know, beneficial behavioral health care or substance abuse care or chronic pain management. We've seen, you know, an increase in research and evidence that suggests that, you know, low dose psilocybin can be incredibly beneficial for cluster headaches. I want to give a shout out to Joanna Kempner and the Cluster Busters, who I think are a driving force behind the increasing normalization of psilocybin use. And I know that they're, you know, played a key role in the crafting of this very interesting bill that's on tap, you know, or being discussed in New York regarding a personal license. You know, but additionally, you know, if you look at just the polling, the polling data, the twenty twenty four survey put out by the American Journal of Bioethics and Neuroscience included that eighty nine percent of Americans support psilocybin use for treatment, you know, for treatment option as a treatment option. that includes ninety one percent of liberals and eighty six percent of conservatives if you break that down to just like for casual or you know less specifically mental health oriented use eighty five percent of americans supports supervised psilocybin use for enhancement that includes eighty nine percent of liberals and seventy eight percent of conservatives now give the other side of the coin to be fair a uc berkeley uh you know center for psychedelics uh studies or research and uh their psychedelic survey from had slightly lower numbers sixty one percent of american registered voters supported legalized psychedelic therapeutic use um and then fifty six percent supported obtaining fda approval it's also important to note that forty seven percent of voters in that uc berkeley survey that had indicated support for therapeutic access also indicated that they believe that psychedelics aren't good for society. So I do think, I really do think that this is based on what I've seen on the front lines of the Renaissance here in Massachusetts and casual conversation with any number of thought leaders across the industry and across academia, as well as the raw number that this is. one of the three to five most unifying issues in American politics today. And it's a really special thing, not only because of the broad intersectional movement that this has become in regards to, I was in a meeting last week with a MAGA Republican who is a strong advocate for Second Amendment rights and is a big Elon Musk fan. who was having a robust and nuanced and detailed and very thoughtful conversation about the importance of psilocybin use in their life with probably as establishment Democrat Hillary Clinton's stand as you can find. And in the same Zoom room, are an anarchist and as far right libertarian as you can possibly find it and another thing that's worth mentioning specifically here in massachusetts is that there have been seven different pieces of psychedelic related legislation that have actually been proposed by the legislature before and I'm glad I remembered this to mention this but before this ballot measure ever came about and one of the chief advocates for that is a representative uh from southwick a historically conservative district in massachusetts representative nicholas bodega who is the self-described most conservative politician in the state of massachusetts he is very much you know libertarians libertarian in that regard um but the fact that that's the leading voice and what's an incredibly liberal and insured of a blue state uh this november in terms of the presidential election um I think really is a testament to just how intersectionally dynamic this movement can be. And then you think about what a state decriminalization model that builds in an integration for legacy market providers to come above board. That's not currently hashed out in the confines of this measure, but I know that that's fresh on a lot of the activists that are on the ground. in their mind is how do we bring a very well, you know, currently existing and very robust legacy market provider, a lot of facilitators, a lot of shamans, you know, a lot of currently practicing, you know, psychiatric and, you know, psychology professionals that are providing access kind of, you know, on the underground. And I think that there's a couple of really interesting comparisons that can be made both in the Vermont, you know, cannabis industry which if I'm remembering correctly, something like eighty percent or more of Vermont cannabis companies currently in operation are former legacy market cultivators or providers of some kind, or at least have roots in the legacy market. And what I mean by that is pre prohibition, if you will. But I also think that I mentioned that I'm a big fan of of the movement out in the state of Washington, particularly an organization called Reach Washington that's led by a similarly a very diverse group of activists from a number of different fascinating backgrounds, as well as some of the activists in Oregon that kind of saw how things didn't go the way they hoped. post passage and decided that they wanted to get involved in the front lines of crafting whatever Washington might have a chance to put in place. And one of the key provisions that I think could be a blueprint for statewide decrim activist everywhere is Washington is reach Washington's peer to peer services card out that provides legal protection and an acknowledgement of current, what you would describe as legacy market, or prohibitionists might describe as black market or underground of sorts, providers, that allows them to come under the light and know that they're not going to be subjected to harsh certification standards or overly financially burdensome registration or licensing fees. And I think that something like that, if that could be a blueprint in other states somewhere down the line, then I think you're looking at something, you know, you're looking at a potential disruptor to, you know, a very sizable and economically profitable rehab industry that thrives on you needing to go back. And when we talk about what decriminalizing Ibogaine could do for increasing, you know, potentially increasing, you know, quality access to, you know, well-sourced and, you know, equitably and, you know, you know ethically sourced you know ibogaine treatment options uh we're talking about the potential to you know disrupt a number of you know healthcare industries or healthcare adjacent industries um in a way that again I think you know largely would probably require uh the success of of robust you know decriminalization efforts for a number of different substances but um in a in a best case scenario really could provide you know, essentially a completely different pathway for affordable behavioral and substance abuse care in this country that isn't reliant on health insurance companies to cover the cost of care, because it's not necessarily so expensive that, you know, I digress. I'm getting a little bit of an interior for my own taste, and I'm not well versed enough on the health insurance versus non-health insurance conversation. But I do think, you know, again, that we're witnessing, in real time, one of the most fascinating political movements of our lifetimes, but also one that has a really unique opportunity to learn from history and from present time, you know, failings or missteps that are happening within the cannabis legalization movement. I do know that No, it's solid. I know Mocha Journeys. They're in Colorado and I think also Oregon. They have an incredible rate of success with helping people with addiction. They have one of the most robust psilocybin centers I've ever seen. You have five or six people that are there with you that understand not only the journey, but themselves have, you know, incredible stories behind them. And I think that on some level that's sort of what sets apart the psychedelic industry model versus the modern medical model is that a lot of the people that are doing a lot of the awesome work are people that have used psilocybin or used those psychedelics themselves. They've come from this background of trauma, right? where they were able to use it in their life and now they're able to not you know prescribe someone a dose but actually share an experience that is therapeutic in nature and that they teach that person how to use the psychedelics in a way that is beneficial for them and then they let them go it's it's not the model of addiction where we're replacing addiction with addiction on some level and you get your thoughts on that do you see that same sort of parallel I do. I think it's one of the things that bonds the legacy market or the grassroots movement so strongly in certain states as well, is that when they're all coming from a place of trauma or seeking healing, or at least seeking to spread the healing that you were able to find access to, which is often an aspect of psychedelic use that leads many activists to get involved, is that they're so moved by the healing they've found access to, they find themselves thinking, why can't everybody have access to this? And what can I do to help make that happen? So it's a lot of folks that are fighting for above board care so they can be legally protected. Don't get me wrong, but it definitely is also, you know, a lot of, you know, folks that are really embedded in their communities and are really trying, you know, and are committed to just providing, you know, immediate increased access to the care that's, you know, really empowered or healed or helped them in some way. Yeah. maybe you could speak to this too about the relationship between the academia and some of those legacy providers. I know that I've spoken to some people in academia that are writing papers, people from Georgetown and, you know, like LSE and all these other schools where they're reaching out to people that are active community members and they're finding ways to do research on the behavior of those people. And you can, you can kind of see this growing together of, of the, Some of the surveys that are coming out are beginning to ask questions about things that may not be able to be thoroughly measured in a scientific setting. Is your husband or your wife less of an asshole now? These sort of ideas that are totally relevant to the person getting better, but they're usually thrown out of the trials because we can't really quantify that. Maybe you could speak to the idea of relationships between what you see in the heart of academia right there and how... they're branching out and finding new ways. Yeah, this is something that's definitely been very fresh in my mind, especially in a city like Boston, where there are a number of ongoing research efforts. Admittedly, I'm not aware of anything that's directly embedded within the community right now, specifically in terms of partnering with specific grassroots leaders, especially with the grassroots movement, being in kind of this transition mode of sorts here in Massachusetts. But I think that it's a really important aspect of what we talk about when we talk about decolonizing psychedelics and or plant medicine is that there's no doubt that having higher academic institutions, very influential and powerful and financially well-funded ones, trying to integrate with the front lines of activism and the front lines of legacy market use, that's very important. But I think that Part of decolonization should also be decoupling the two in some way in terms of like broader nuanced conversations surrounding bioethics discourse and facilitator conduct. And how do we set standards within the grassroots community that we don't necessarily have to go up onto the city on the hill of sorts or to the hallowed halls of the Ivy League specifically to have these very important and robust and nuanced thoughtful conversations that help us build a better standard across, you know, kind of the grassroots or legacy community that already does exist. So the legitimacy that those name brand institutions or any higher academic involvement brings to the casual voter or the less, you know, the casually informed psychedelic enthusiast or interested person, that's invaluable. And I don't think that that should be, I think that should be encouraged, but I would hope, in the years to come, that we can start to bring some of the very important conversations surrounding bioethics, surrounding adverse events. And there's a number of fantastic researchers at Harvard right now that you have to trek out to Harvard, which is not super far, but you have to go specifically to Harvard for one of these events. And that's a good thing because there's legitimacy to that that's very important. But if we could bring those same kinds of forums to a community that maybe is a little bit more skeptical, middle of Massachusetts, gains a little bit more red, veteran supporting, so at least open, but skeptical about what decriminalization might bring into their community if they're not aware. Yeah, I think I'm very hopeful that higher academia will find a way to innovate specifically here in Massachusetts. regarding certification standards as well. I think with the proliferation of professional certificate programs across all areas of American higher academia, that there's really an avenue to provide more affordable access to really high quality certification. I don't necessarily have faith that the words affordable and higher ed are ever going to go hand in hand with a four-year school perspective especially with some of these ivs but um I do think that it's possible to build a certain legitimacy surrounding certification and licensing very quickly that doesn't necessarily have to break the bank in the way that some of these training programs and you know in oregon and in california uh can run upwards of fourteen thousand you know fifteen thousand you know twenty thousand dollars and while it's really important to have very robust you know, and detailed education surrounding proper care when the model that exists in Oregon is ultimately like the licensing programs are making more money than the service centers themselves. That's an issue. And there needs to be a lot of robust conversations here in Massachusetts, at least in my opinion, about really nailing down a framework to provide affordable access to a, you know, above board market for care. for current providers. My hope is that places like Harvard and Northeastern and Boston University and MIT can all play an active role in providing pathways. You have to be seen, of course. Yeah, it's fascinating to see the... the boom of certifications that are, you know, being doled out on some level. And it's, in some ways it's, it's like the ultimate irony. Like, what are you getting certified for? If nothing's going to get legalized, like, what are you getting certified for? What are you going to do out there? You know? And then, and then you start digging down a little deeper and you're like, okay, well, it sounds like the certification companies just start kicking into the legislation, but who do they pay? There's no centralization. You know, all of a sudden you see the quagmire and then you go, Oh man, They don't really care. Some of them are awesome. Some of them are like, I'm just going to certify this person. And it brings back that question of when the instrument becomes institutionalized, it loses its ability to cut. It loses its ability to solve problems. And here we are on some level. Yeah. No, I definitely agree. Yeah, I think it's going to be one of the most important healthcare conversations of the next decade in particular as statewide governments know efforts ramp up in other states I think next year will probably be the biggest year for psychedelic policy yet I know that reach washington washington state already has their very you know innovative bill on the table and set to be on the ballot next year I know that the new jersey state legislature and a lot of the folks leading the psychedelic policy you know conversation uh in new jersey are very excited about a psilocybin specific bill I mentioned uh new york um I am also, you know, obviously want to give, you know, kudos to the folks in, I think it's Utah, have a very interesting MDMA. I totally should know this and always mix it up. So to pivot, I also know that the movement in Connecticut is particularly strong and well organized and is gearing up for a very impactful I know there's also been discussions in Maine and Vermont. Maryland's explored some stuff. Indiana has discussed addiction-oriented psychedelic research. I just saw that there's a growing movement based in Austin, Texas that I think with support for veterans and a broader libertarian streak, they could find themselves having some success on a localized level or beyond within the decade. So yeah, I am... really uh you know grateful to have been able to cover what I've covered so far and I'm excited to give you the detail uh you know what's going on in this space and um from a political standpoint uh I would hope that you know more folks will start to pay attention uh to the dynamics at play within state level movements specifically within the next three years because there will be a larger leap uh if things go one way or another, whether it's an overly pharmaceuticalized and overly corporatized, very expensive, non-insurance covered model, or if it's a broadly decriminalized, easier access or slightly easier access legacy market integrated model, certainly remains to be seen. Yeah. It's an incredible time to be alive and it's an incredible time to have a walk on part in the war. If that makes sense to most people, we're all grateful to have that on some level, you know, I kind of, I want to stretch it a little bit here. Like I know that you spend a lot of time doing a lot of research and you do, you go out and talk to lots of people. Are there some interesting sort of markets or some sort of industries? I've heard you, briefly touch upon the idea of optimization, but you talked to so many different people and so many leaders in the community. Are you seeing some sort of, you know, new cool things popping up around the world of psychedelics that might be outside of the medical system? I know that there's tons of cool magazines that you're working for. There's probably lots of people that are contributing there. Maybe you could talk about some, uh, some ideas that, you know, you're like, Oh, that's a pretty interesting thing. Something kind of nuanced around the edges. Yeah, I think, Well, I think one of the most interesting topics surrounding, you know, kind of more of like a, you know, not specifically therapeutic or not specifically medicalized use of psilocybin is the idea of what I've heard some activists, activists refer to as like a Meza or a museum dose, kind of a lower grade non hallucinogenic. I know that, um, uh, some folks on, on site or Twitter refer to as kind of a hike dose, you know, referring to going on a hike on a lower dose of psilocybin. Um, And the folks that I've spoken to, especially an older boomer age generation, particularly their number one concern is the bad trip. They're aware that there's a lot of potential health-wise. They're not going to argue with the growing dossier of scientific evidence that's only growing stronger, I think, by the month, that at least there is some benefit across a number of different areas of health. But you also, you couple in, I mentioned before, a lot of emerging research surrounding the effectiveness of psychedelics and specifically lower-grade psilocybin for cluster headaches and migraines, fibromyalgia, osteoarthritis. I've spoken with one activist in Colorado who specifically does microdosing, which I think that's another to kind of pivot and expand my answer. Obviously, I think that, you know, microdosing psychedelics is one of the most Google searched, you know, terms surrounding psychedelics over the last year. I think it's exploded, you know, over a few hundred percent at least. And yeah, I think that the non-hallucinogenic doses of certain psychedelics is going to be, you know, an interesting aspect of the normalization of non-medical specific use. And I also think that um conversations surrounding ibogaine as more people start to understand you know the potential benefits for addiction you know and substance abuse therapies will be of great interest to a number of people across the you know the american electorate um I think that's probably a little bit more drawn out ibogaine you know carries know certain concerns uh in terms of you know cardio perceived cardio toxicity that I've read research that indicates like a higher dose of magnesium administered not sure how much you know about it again so I won't get into the weeds about it but um yeah I think uh and and another aspect is that um psilocybin mushrooms are significantly easier to cultivate or grow than cannabis is so home grow provisions specifically for psilocybin in particular, I think you're a lot easier of a sell for, you know, the casually interested, you know, in regards to home cultivation. Yeah. I also... Nope, lost the train of thought. No, I'm stoked to hear it because I see the same thing. I think that the medical container usually comes before the optimization container. But I think I've spoken to some really cool people. And since we're talking about the heart of Western academia, I don't see... I'm hopeful to see, and I haven't seen it yet, but maybe you have these big institutions like having a psychedelic accelerated learning class. In my opinion, I think that a museum dose, or I'm sure it's dose dependent on the individual, but a certain threshold is going to allow you to thrive in things like organic chemistry and mathematics on some level. And I don't know of any schools that are doing this yet, and I would like to try to inspire them too. Of course, I'm not a lawyer or anything like that, and I don't know the liability there. But I'm willing to bet if someone wanted to write a paper or do a cool experiment, I think that you could use today's brain imaging, understand where images are being processed, and use that as some sort of neural feedback in a class and have an accelerated learning program that could benefit an incredible amount of people. But that's something I see. I know that in San Francisco where I am, I talk to a lot of people in the startup community, and it's almost like – an unspoken truth that people are using psychedelics to see the world in a new way and thus imagine new possibilities and new answers to old problems. So, you know, I see that emerging as a cool aspect of like, Whoa, Hey, this medical container and trauma is definitely a cool thing, but what about these other avenues? You know, when you see museum dose, um, you know, in the event that something gets legalized, I could see tours coming up where everyone's given sort of a, maybe they're brought into a sort of like an elusinian mysteries type theater setting where you're given a small dose and you are, I get to play a small part as an audience member inside the play, you know, but like now we're beginning to get these really community based people bringing together, being part of something bigger than themselves. Like that's what a big part of I'm excited for. And, What is your take on that, integrating sort of this new community aspect of the human mycelium into everyday events? Yeah, I think that, you know, I love it. I think that, yeah, if you have this opportunity to bring together such a truly diverse, you know, supporting a number of different groups from a very wide variety of political backgrounds, and you can find a way to find any kind of common ground, That's really important. And to that point, one of the things that I think kind of flows in that favor of bringing more and more people together surrounding this topic and having that kind of extend to broader political themes, I mentioned that I think that this is one of the three to five most unifying issues in politics, and I'll continue to say that. But some of the other leading issues categories in terms of unifying issues are largely anti-establishment sentiments. Distrust of a two-party system, lack of faith or losing faith in the direction the country is headed. Those are sentiments that also extend across pretty much every demographic that you can think of. And to be able to bring a number of people together, you know, specifically rather than explicitly those anti-establishment sentiments, but the back door of that community of sorts being access to healing or at least, you know, increased access to next generation, you know, healthcare or mental healthcare treatments, that's a really special thing. And my hope is that that could continue to grow. Yeah, I think so. What about, you know, kind of shifting gears a little bit? Did you have some sort of journalistic icons that you looked up to? I mean, there's been Hunter Thompson, Julian Assange comes to mind. What are your thoughts on the forward progression of journalism, where you are and what are you excited about? And is it an interesting spot to be in? Yeah, I think it's a complicated spot to be in. I've certainly chosen to enter it at a very unique time. I love it. In the history of the world, history of mankind, I first want to give a huge shout out to two of my mentors, Boston Institute for Nonprofit Journalism co-founders, Jason Promise and Chris Verone, both longtime independent journalists. Jason is, I think, one of the most important labor leaders organization, labor rights activists of the twentieth century that you probably never heard of. And I will defer to him to go into the details of all of that should he choose to. But I'm really grateful to have learned the craft over the last year or so from, you know, two longtime independent journalists who never compromised their morals for the sake of reporting a story or not reporting a story. And so I would also, you know, I certainly grew up with an admiration from any mainstream media institutions. And I maintain that there are fantastic individual reporters in a number of flagship media outlets, be it the New York Times, the Boston Globe, Wall Street Journal. There are individual fantastic reporters across this industry still in operation. But I also think that we're witnessing a very unique shift in the public's attention away from the legacy media outlets to a burgeoning independent media movement. One of my go-to sources for political news in general is the Breaking Points network of sorts, Breaking Points podcast with Crystal Ball and Sagar Njenti, as well as their show Counterpoints with longtime Intercept columnist and now co-founder of the Dropsite, Ryan Grimm, and his co-host, Emily Kaczynski, Kaczynski, Kaczynski, I should say. But they very quickly become the number one political podcast in America. And they're all former legacy media folks who've come together from different political viewpoints with the understanding that the American people and, broadly speaking, the voters of the Western world of sorts are clamoring for more trustworthy, by and large, and better options for reliable news. I think I read recently that I think it was a twenty eighteen poll from the Associated Press indicated that seventy percent of Americans don't trust that the mainstream that mainstream media outlets are telling them the truth all the time. So rough phrasing of the specific study employed. But the point being is that. If you look at the numbers of your leading cable news shows, they're not scraping a million viewers in primetime anymore unless it's some grand event. I think that seven or eight of the last ten most blocked cable news events of the last fifteen years are all NFL games. Distrust in the mainstream media along with the rise of reliable independent media outlets. I hope an independent journalist but also you know as someone who really believes that the most important thing in any democracy is a well-informed electorate yeah my hope is that that movement will continue to grow I know that um disinformation and misinformation and you know mal uh informed or generally malicious online news is very much real and very much an issue in today's day and age but I think that if media literacy is a priority of the individual and hopefully is, you know, expands to, you know, kind of the community education standpoint, then more and more, you know, folks will seek out and tune into reliable independent media, you know, sources, uh, and news outlets. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And for everybody listening, you should go down to the show notes and check out Jack. He's a, he's putting on the line out there. He's doing what he loves to do. And, um, you know, we're coming up on the hour right here, Jack, but I'm super thankful to get this, hang out with you and get to learn from some of the stories you're doing. But more than that, I'm grateful for the passion that you have to do it. Like it shines through and what you're doing, man. But before I let you go, what do you, what do you get? Where can people find you? Uh, what are you working on coming up? And, um, what are you excited about? Yeah, thank you. So I've mentioned, um, so I, you can find me online pretty much everywhere. Jack for his line, uh, with, uh, just, uh, I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram, and obviously on Twitter. The psychedelic community is very active on Twitter, for those who might not be aware. You can read most of my work at Talking Joints Memo. I've recently been doing some reporting for Filter Magazine. And I'm currently working on a feature detailing the blueprint that the Washington state level movement led by Reach Washington is putting together. So stay tuned for that. I'm also working on kind of a follow-up piece to some of what's been going on in Massachusetts, specifically detailing the, you know, kind of inside the opposition campaign and the powers that be that are involved there, as well as some of the concerns that are facing ballot campaign and what comes next. uh, for the powers that be back in that group, uh, as well. So, uh, that'll be coming out with double blind magazine, hopefully in the next few weeks. And, uh, you can, you know, I will, uh, you know, be continuing to trudge along. I also, uh, have been doing some reporting and cannabis business to business specific concerns with MG magazine. Uh, and, you know, keep an eye out for the October and November issues where, uh, some of my work will also be featured. Yeah. Um, I can't say thank you enough, George, for bringing me on and, Uh, really appreciate, uh, you know, you take the interest in my work and supporting it and I'm excited to keep going. Um, yeah. Yeah, you should be. Is there, is there, do you have a Patreon? Is there like a, um, someplace like, let's say someone's watching this and like, there you go. This guy, Jack is amazing, man. How do I give this guy some money? Is there a place they can do that? So I have a sub stack that, uh, you know, has both a donation option and a subscription option. I have not invested as much time into the sub stack as, as I should. as of late, but that's Psychedelic States of America on Substack. I'm hoping to build that out in the weeks ahead. So if there's any support, it's great. I also am wearing it, but I have these Psychedelic States of America t-shirts and branded apparel merchandise that I'm hoping can be something that helps fund some of the independent side of this journalism. So we'll provide that information for the online store to you and can be posted on my socials in the days to come. But yeah, no, I am again so grateful for the opportunity to come on and speak about some of this stuff and I'm excited to continue to detail what I think will be a strong indicator of the future of the Renaissance here in Massachusetts this November. Well, you're doing awesome work, man. And I think that you provide people with a lens that they might not be able to see unless we had you, man. So hang on briefly afterwards. But to everybody who's listening, whether you're listening to us live or you're listening tomorrow or sometime in the future, go down to the show notes, check out Jack. And thank you for everybody who's playing a part in living the best life and becoming the best version of yourselves. Ladies and gentlemen, that's all we got for today. Aloha.