Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. I hope everybody's having a wonderful day. I hope you're ready to see your world as a piece of art, be it a performance piece of art, or maybe you're looking at your own hero's journey, because I have with me today Incredible individual, Matt Mays from the Quantum Keyhole Studio. And I want to ask everyone to help me welcome him. And this one goes out to the seekers of creativity and imagination. Today, we're opening a door into a world where myth and art intertwine. where every brushstroke holds the potential to reconnect you with the deepest parts of your soul. Our guest, Matt, is not just a painter. He's a mythical painter, an artist who brings the fantastical into the tangible, and a creative educator who teaches others to unlock their own boundless potential through what he calls the quantum keyhole. Armed with a BA in media arts and animation, Matt doesn't just create art. He crafts entire experiences, and you'll see that in some of his work. His work invites you to step into the realm where imagination flows freely and the stories within us come to life. For those who crave deeper encounters with mythology, creativity, and themselves, Matt's art is a portal to discovery. Matt, thanks for being here today, my friend. How are you? Right on. I'm doing amazing, and thank you for that really Saucy slamming intro that you gave me. That's amazing. Thank you so much. So I'll try to do justice to what you just laid out, how you just described me. So really appreciate it. Great to be back. I know our first conversation was just super packed and amazing and enlivening. And yeah, I can't wait to get into it, man. Talking about symbolism in art. And yeah, great to be back, man. Yeah, man. Well, I'm stoked you're here. Our last conversation was awesome. And I felt that we just kind of scratched the surface of not only our relationship, the idea of art and how your life is a form of art. And if you can give people a little bit of background and refresh their memories, like you have some incredible mythical pieces. I know that you have been part of multiple podcasts with other people where you talk about symbolism and mythic mythology and art, but what is it about mythology for you? And, and that type of influence that, that really draws you to doing that kind of art. Hmm. Thank you. Thank you. Um, Yeah, give everybody kind of a primer on what I'm about and what really fires me up and inspires me. I've been an artist since I was seven years old, which is when I discovered drawing, and I've always loved storytelling. So whether it was reading books or watching movies or shows or that, know all that sort of thing um storytelling has always had a powerful influence in my life and those have kind of intertwined over many years but it was a handful of years ago about six years ago I want to say where I watched the power of myth interviews between joseph campbell and bill moyers where it really came into focus that that really the path of mythic art is my calling, that bringing out this incredible, vibrant world of mythology. Really what grabs me about mythology is that there are real deep patterns within our lived stories, within our psychology, with the way we experience the world. It's something that is innately knit into the way that we experience reality and even beyond how we experience reality even you know goes beyond our senses right which you know goes back to my path as a mythical artist to bring that into focus through the senses and to make the things that are intangible and sometimes ethereal and mystical into the artwork in ways that we can be in contact with them because we can often get lost in that in our day-to-day lives you know getting into the same kind of routines into the same you know and uh you know I can tell you I'm I'm actually a big fan of keeping of certain a certain measure of structure you know uh but definitely getting us in touch with our hero's journeys in our real lives through the art. And I think there's really something to be said for connecting with the divine and the mystical through the senses, whether it's visual art or sculpture or music or whatever, you know, something that brings you to life. Yeah, it's well said. I loved that series with Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyers. It had a big impact on my life. And, you know, you start just digging deeper into these ideas of mythology. It's like looking at a mirror of yourself. And for me, I listened to those lectures via audio and I was able in some way to create a story in my mind and translate it in a certain way. but everybody has their own translation. And I think that your brand of art and you as an individual have a unique way of inviting people into mythology. And that is with your artwork. When I see the details of some of your pieces, like the one behind you, we spoke about some other pieces in a previous podcast, but maybe you could talk about that particular process. When you're creating something, Do you feel you're creating an invitation for someone to find a story? Are you telling a story? What is that act of creation for you? Well, you know, there are a lot of different parts to it. And when we think about how those are made up and how each one having its role, like myself as a creator, being inspired by something. Being open to curiosity, being open to what may come through, you know, what's that whole source material, right? And for myself, I'm really blessed to have struck upon something like mythology, where you have an immense pool of sources to pull from, right? I mean, really, it's like a playground. Really, I've got like so much that I could... that I can grab onto and be inspired and let the ideas come through right and they each have different I'm a huge proponent proponent of inherent meaning within symbolism within within mythology things that they actually represent now we can interpret them in a lot of different ways as well you know and say take a thing that's multi-dimensional and turn it around in our hands and see the many different facets of it and see that they are all true, right? See that everything that is innately true about that thing can be, you know, can be relayed through art and can be, you know, something that's translated through us, right? So I, as the creator, as the artist, I get to be the vessel through which those things come through, right? So I want to do justice to whatever it is that I'm painting, whoever it is. that I'm painting. And say, the example of Freya behind me, she represents many different aspects, like love, beauty, magic, motherhood. And all of those can be translated through the art. And so when I have those meanings, I can look at what universal symbols represent those things, right? How those things show up. Like, you know, for example, like the sun cross would be a symbol that is represented in many different ways across across many different cultures right or for uh for norse culture would be the the helm of ah it's this it's this eight-sided symbol right it's this this one with eight different uh different directions to it right and it represents protection you would often put it on your forehead and it's used for intimidation that sort of thing and so I can see what shows up in different cultures what's innate to that culture and what kind of rhymes between cultures right now that's where we have to be really careful not to just mix and match things willy-nilly as you'd say, you know, but to be conscious of where those sources are, you know, those different cultures and how different symbols might connect. Like, you know, another one would be Yggdrasil is the world tree. Now the world tree is a concept that transcends many different cultures. Right. Like the Kabbalah has the, you know, the dual sided tree in Christianity. You have the tree of life. It's, you know, like all over the place, you see the symbol of the tree. Right. And even we think about our our anatomy, right, like this, the spine, you know, our spine with all all our nerves coming out of our spine. Right. Much like the trunk. with many different branches coming out of it, you know, even our limbs, right? Like our arms and legs, like we're, you know, living trees in a way, right? So through these symbols, I'm calling to something that is subconscious and something that something that we innately understand, you know, something that at a deep level we can be conscious of and we can tap into. And when we see this through art, then we can bring ourselves more in tune with that very primal symbolism or that very primal meaning in a felt sense. You know, so I think meaning applies to the mind. It allows us to navigate. It allows us to understand. Right. But you can hold ideas inside of your head and not have them activated, not realize them. Right. Which I think is a thing that a lot of us get caught up in, you know, where we have, we have thoughts inside of our heads. that are not being utilized. They're not being incorporated, right? Even the meaning within words, like in, like think about the word, this one struck me recently, incorporate, like corpse, like the body, right? Like, or yeah, incorporated, right? To be embodied in something, right? So that's really what I'm going for through the art is, you know, not just you see it now, that's, you know, a nice, painting or all that looks cool no I want you to feel it coming through you you know to feel what it is coming through to have a felt presence experience of the divine coming through the art that's really my goal and when I see that really the the greatest the greatest compliment I received is when someone finds that through the art, when they really connect with a certain piece, when you can see that there is the light coming through their eyes. You can see something has just been turned on with that person. And to know that I've been able to be the vessel to make that possible is an honor. Honestly, it tells me that I'm doing my job correctly. that I can see that coming through someone that they were able to make that connection and find something of themselves within the art. Yeah, that's well said. It's almost like, a more meaningful language on some level. It transcends words when you can feel something. It's like poetry. When you read, you know, why is it that, you know, four stanzas of poetry say more, mean more, and feel more than a four hundred page terms of service agreement? You know what I mean? Way more than four stanzas. That is well said. But it's the same with art too. It's the same process you're describing, I think. You're finding a way to – because you can't say it in words. It can only be through symbolism. It can only be through the transference of the felt presence that you resonate with what somebody is truly trying to design. And that's a – there's not a whole lot of – I think the only word to describe that is ineffable. Ineffable. Am I saying that right? Ineffable? Ineffable. Like you can't describe it. There's no words for it, but you can share. Yeah. You can share in the joy. You can share in the invitation. You can share in the felt presence when you come upon and share it together, man. It's, it's a, that's why I love talking to you. It's such a cool, unique way to express it. Yeah. It's, it's, it is an invitation in a way. It feels like art on some level is an invitation into something bigger. It allows you to, I don't know. It seems like it allows you to share an experience with someone versus just having a conversation. And you can't have a conversation too, but is that too far out there? What do you think? Well, yeah. And I think that even language, like when you say like can't describe with words, but there's an energy that can come through words as well. Like say you're a public speaker and say... you have a teleprompter with just all your words and you're just reading the words you know and you can use that it can be a useful tool for sure but if you're just sitting there you can tell when that person is just like reading off of a script you can tell when that person is just you know wrote uh you know just repeating what is written what's been written down right but when you say something with passion when you say something that you can feel that this it has balls behind it. It has an energy behind it. You can feel that there is an urgency that comes through in that person's words. There's something that is so deeply expressed that it's like, I need to project this. It matters more than life and death for you to know this, for me to express difference between those two people right yeah and through language language used artfully I love I love the sentiment you just expressed like you can read a line of poetry and that can mean more to you than a four hundred page whatever you know this is you know just written for a function right yeah um but I I love thinking in terms of thinking of things in terms of of yes and as well you know like in terms of like in terms of language words can be spoken beautifully you can use your words to project something deep and amazing and it's the energy that's behind it right and the language is the vessel for for that energy to come through for that meaning to come through like here's another word like enchantment You know, like when you're chanting something, when you're speaking something and the energy that comes through in this magical way. And it's just amazing how you can take a word and you can sort of break it open and see what type of meaning is within that word. This is something that's just fascinated me for a long time. is how you can have these realizations about the hidden meanings within words, within language. There's something about... You know, even the word occult, right? Actually, occult means that which is hidden. You know, hidden under the surface, right? So when you have that kind of curiosity and you're looking into the deeper meaning behind things, you can really... end up in some fantastic places yeah I agree I'm a huge fan of the occult and sometimes I think that the everything is hidden in plain sight if you just know where to look right like maybe that maybe sometimes that gets you in trouble it gets me in trouble sometimes where like I find meaning where maybe someone didn't mean to put any meaning but there's meaning there for me you know and it It is interesting to think about the way in which we imbue our words with energy. There is something magical about that. And then you start thinking about different kinds of language. Some people speak multiple languages and they conjugate verbs different so they're able to use their language in a way that is more robust. Or even if we look at hieroglyphics or maybe even runes, you've been talking a lot about runes lately and studying that with some of the paintings you do. maybe maybe we could just shift gears for a minute and like are what are runes is that a language is it a symbolic art like maybe give us a definition and then go into some of the ideas about runes that you've been working on yeah yeah absolutely um well for for people who are just getting into runes or had never heard the word runes before it's a language it's it's an alphabet and originally functionally you have you have the elder and younger futhark which are from norse culture and not only are they a language but they also represent different qualities each one of the runes represents different things like fehu for example would represent abundance represent growth right And you can even pair different runes together. So they can be complementary. They don't have to just be isolated. So like Fehu, big growth. You also have Uruz. And Uruz is like, well, the term is the aurochs, or it has these prongs coming out of it. And it's interesting, when you look at the symbol itself, you have the prongs which are facing downward, like downward from the sky. And it's like the force that allows that growth to happen. It's a force of creation. So you could say that if one example of Fehu would be growth like a flower blooming. And then you have the water, which comes down into the soil, which allows for that growth to take place. So that's a complementary action. That's those two forces of creation working together. So going back to the symbols, the function, the meaning that precedes the symbols that we inherit and that we work with them uh so there's a term in norse um norse culture where it is called frith and you could say that you have frith your relationship with the deities with the divine right but you can also have frith with the roots right your your relationship with the meaning of those things and the sense that you have um being in tune with I mean the sensation of what that room represents right so going back even beyond the language, even beyond the staves, the symbols, how the symbols are made up. Staves being like the lines that make up the symbols, right? Then being in tune with that. One way that you can be in tune with it is called ,, which is to sing the rhymes. You could sing like you sing ,, sing . So that sort of thing, and bring yourself in closer contact. with them in closer relationship with them so that would be one way that people work with uh with rooms right and there are even uh runes which are incorporated into the freya piece here so that so the futhark is divided into three sets of eight so you have freya's eight and then you have heimdall's eight and then you have tears eight so they form the full circle of twenty four rooms so they they each preside over each of these different rooms and so I would really encourage people to study them too in terms if you're curious about language you know we're here talking about language how many sounds are How many letters actually come out of the rooms too because many actually many words in English come out of Norse words and many symbols come out of out of Norse symbols as well So, you know, I would encourage anybody who's curious to to dive deeper into that one and and see what you can find. I But yeah, it's something I'm extremely passionate about, something that I've been going even deeper into in my own Norse culture. And I think one reason, I've been thinking about this lately, why it is that it's resonated with me so deeply, that part of myself. Now, I have seven different nationalities, literally. I've got Mexican, Spanish, French, Norwegian, Cherokee, Apache, Chippewa, you know, mom and dad side, they both feel like multiple different cultures around them, you know, but I think there's a number of reasons. One, it's super badass. It's super cool. And it's one that I've, I've, I've found the most naturally to be able to step into. who also celebrate these things, right? And to be able to have a bond and a community and a kinship with people who also celebrate these things. And going back to Freya, I've been able to be introduced into these cultures largely through the artwork, largely because I would... I'll show someone the artwork and then and then you know that person is part of the community and boom there you go you know seemingly uh more natural than than a lot of cultures um you know I would also I would also say that um you know in my Mexican culture like yeah I am part Mexican on my dad's side and I was able to to co-write well illustrate I contributed many of the key ideas for this book Azrea Aztec Priestess and um being able to go deep into the Mexican culture in that way was really, really cool and important. And being able to, um, to learn some of the language, you know, we have, we have some of the language in the beginning of the book and some of the maps from, you know, the Aztec time period. And so that was really cool and honoring. And, you know, I felt I got to connect with my Mexican culture, uh, largely through that book is really cool experience. Yeah, like it seems to me on some level that the shape of words, you know, when you were describing the runes and you talk about the prongs coming down and being plugged into the ground, energy coming up, like... That seems to be lost in a more scalpel-like linguistic description versus a word that carries a shape to it. It carries an image with it. It carries gravity with it. On some level, you can look at runes, and you had mentioned this, the runes are more than... They're more than a symbol or they're more than language. They're a symbol and they have a shape to them and stuff. And it seems that you share that with the Aztecs. When I think of some of the artwork that comes out of the indigenous people of South America, like some of the... some of the symbolism on the pyramids or on some of the plates that you find? Like there's kind of a lot of similarities in some ways. Or I don't know, is there some similarities in the runes and that Mesoamerica, that Aztec sort of symbolism? Maybe in different ways, yeah. Well, okay, let's get into this. Like the connection between... we say the pyramid or the ziggurats right like you have okay well here again like things that interrelate right like yeah ziggurats in uh mesoamerican culture and then you have the pyramids in egypt you know very similar shape you know very similar function even I mean if you're gonna to go really into it like how they align with the direct you know the directions the poles right and seem to form a line. There's something really incredible about that, something kind of eerie about that. How is it so accurate? But it's interesting in terms of different symbols and different cultures. I want to talk about how they can be unique in some ways. Now. So I have another podcast that I do long running podcasts. Now we're on our coming up on our at six to third episode of mythic Monday, which is uh collaboration between myself and the amazing brilliant myth slayer scott mason also of the octopus movement yeah and every week we feature a unique mythic figure on the show we talk about and we dive into their story scott does the heft of the storytelling and I create a live sketch and then at the end we come together and we talk about what's coming through the art what's coming through the story And anyway, so one of them was Quetzalcoatl, who is the serpent bird snake god of the Aztecs, right? And so part of the story has to do with corn and him presiding over maize. Not just my last name, which is eerily also connected to my last name. Imagine that. Maize, right? But so if you look at a lot of goddesses, too, have to do with agriculture and providing out of the ground. So it's very interesting to me to see a male god like Quetzalcoatl presiding over something of agriculture, like people coming up out of the ground through corn. That's a really interesting thing. So we have these distinctions. In talking about symbols, a lot of them can be expressed through images, too. Going back to Egyptians, the hieroglyphs, they're more representational. So you would have something that's clearly a bird or something that's clearly a person, like Anubis with the head of the jackal. So they have these different distinctions to them. But what's interesting with runes, I mean, they're very... I want to say, not trip over how most people think of the word primitive, but primal might be a very good word. Where they're simply the lines. They're simply the lines to represent them. So you could have another culture where something is much more akin to looking like an object. right so like in hieroglyphics you have many different uh representations of of objects and yeah so it's it's interesting actually how I'm always struck by like the relationship between similarities universal similarities and then also what's unique in that they exist in the same universe I think that's something that's really profound to me that you have Things that are universally true, universally applicable, and then you have variation at the same time. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. One hundred percent. It kind of makes me think of this question. When you look at like the Renaissance or you look back. whenever society or modernity gets into trouble, they tend to look back towards the place where things were going okay. Hey, where did we go wrong? We took the wrong way here. And then they look back to a time where things seem to be better than they try to build on that. And in some ways, I'm curious, do you think that maybe that's what we're seeing here? Because I know that you have been, you and Scott and so many other people have sort of been pointing towards this archaic revival. Like you're going back to ruins, you're going back to Mesoamerica. Do you think that maybe your art in conjunction with a lot of other artists around the world that seem to be bringing forth this motif is pointing us to saying, Hey, we've kind of lost our way. Maybe we should look back to a time when things were a little bit different so we can find some answers. Is that maybe that the art is speaking through you to society? You ever think about it from that angle? I think there's, I think there's a lot of that. I definitely, now when we're getting into different ages and different generations and, and, different thought patterns you know and there's always been this the sort of growing pains or conflict between different generations right I mean you have the you know you have the elders and you have the newest generation and then you you know you have what is thought of as tried and true and what's traditional and that sort of thing and then you have the innovation you have like hey let's try these new ideas yes that's I mean, that in and of itself is a pattern that just repeats itself in so many different ways. Not to go too far deep in a rabbit hole here, but my wife does some really tremendous work with family businesses in her work. So she runs a program at DU here in Colorado, Denver, where you have resources, workshops, all this different kind of support. It's really just flourishing. around family businesses now the reason why I bring up family businesses is because you can have say the founder the person you know let's talk about like multi-generational businesses let's talk about ones that have been around for like you know a hundred years or so or something like that multiple generations so you have the person who founded it the person who is the you know, these, the starter, right. The person who had the idea for the business, built it up, say built it, you know, built a team around them, that sort of thing. They got it started. Right. And then they have the kids. and say those kids participate in the essay kids, like, you know, you could say their children, you could say like, you know, twenties, thirties, forties, whatever, you know, and then how do they grow that? How do they take, you know, and you have to consider what worked then may not necessarily work now or in the future. Right. So being able to bring new ideas, into the process and say like yo pops mom you know what you did um that really got us here that really you know say they're very respectful and say like what you did got us to this place Now we're at a different phase, and the world is a different place. And there are new things that we got to consider, maybe new technologies that we have to consider to grow, to adapt, and to keep on going. And that's a really valid thing. They both have their merits. I mean, you can have the foundation. You have to have a foundation. But then you also have to be able to grow out of that, right? And so we're at a very interesting point in time where we can look back at all of this history, all of these different ages, all the different things that have transpired, and we can sort of critique them, right? And there's this mindset like, oh, you know, the things we did back then, like, you know, yeah, we did them because we didn't know any better. We were trying to do our best, whatever. And then, you know, but we really, we got it figured out now and pretty much every, it's funny how every generation seems to think that, right. Um, but, but being able to look at things like myth, the things that are, I say archaic as in, I think that's synonymous with foundational, right. Things that are timeless. things that don't erode with age, that we can look back at those things and say, it's not that we actually do know better than the realization of these patterns. This is something that seems to persist. This is something that seems to still be relevant in many different ways. And it's funny, a lot of times when I talk to people about myth, it's like this thing that they studied in college or high school, and it's like, oh, yeah, myth. Oh, yeah, I studied mythology. I remember that. It's like it still applies, man. It still very much applies, right? But it's funny. If you were to drive down the street or go into any given store, how often do you hear mentions of myth? how often you hear mentions of mythology as relevant to our lives, right? So it's something that really strikes me as interesting and profound and deeply, deeply needed too, you know? So being able to bring people back into a realization of these stories that are around us and within us and they all still apply. And that's, you know, I'm a huge proponent of the belief, this conviction that being conscious of them allows us to live more conscious lives too, not just to follow these automatic patterns that we can get stuck into, but now to move through our lives really as mythical, heroic experiences. So I'm going to do a quick plug here. Yeah, please come here. uh so my wife and I have created this program we call immersive art meditation which by the way she oh wait wait wait okay I may have I did mention it last time I did mention it first time but for people who are just hearing it for the first time yeah and by the way we're starting this program again we're starting these sessions again um they are I'd like to describe this focused art experiences through the lens of guided meditation so yeah so we'll we'll focus on some of my uh some of my pieces that specifically the edge of myth series which is a seven part spiritual and psychological journey featuring different deities from different parts of the world representing different phases of the hero's journey nice so every session We'll go into the storytelling. We'll go into what is being represented through the art and how that relates to our actual lives too. And each of those pieces, in terms of the journey, I can tie back to a certain point in my life where I've experienced that for myself. So I can say that there are personal stories that have gone into the inspiration of each one of these pieces. But the whole idea is... is this mission that I have of people being able to realize in their real lives through mythical art the connection between the myths and their real lives so that's one of my favorite parts of each of these workshops is being able to see people make these connections between these realizations between the different parts of the journey and something that's happening own lives, perhaps something that is happening in someone else's life that they know, and they say, like, wow, like, I know someone who's going through this, you know, yeah. And we have a thing called we created a thing called the journeyers journal. which allows participants to reflect on each one of these questions, each one of the different themes coming through the session. And I like to think of it as like a living journal because you're going to be going through your life and each of these patterns are going to be repeating throughout our lives. So you can look back and say, instead of it being arbitrary and random, you can say, what did I write down? last time about this going through immersive art meditation that I can then incorporate into this experience I'm having right now. So being able to have a conscious experience of that phase of the journey in your actual life. What happens in that immersive art meditation? Is someone drawing? Is someone singing? Walk us through what it is. Give us an example. Yeah, absolutely. So, so we'll feature one of the pieces of artwork from, uh, from that series and it'll be one of the seven and we'll go into, I'll go into the details of the storytelling talking about that, uh, that figure's journey, you know, what they represent and also my own story as relates to that piece. Right. And we'll, we've had, um, you know, in our first one, we had kind of an intimate group of people. We had around eight people per session. And so just a good size of people to be able to, you know, relay questions. It can be very conversational too. So while I'm talking to definitely invite people to ask questions or post comments and, you know, just re love the engagement, you know? And so, Once I've gone through the piece, then Helena has a visualization. She'll lead us through a meditation together and we'll each go through you know a journey that she has crafted that really speaks to the heart of each one of those pieces that really speaks to whatever the theme is that's coming through that piece so we can again getting a felt presence experience of what it's about not just conceptual not just theoretical but embodied you know and I have to tell you I she does a wonderful job there have been some times where I come out and it's just so cathartic. I'm literally in tears by the end of it. It's just, wow. It is super powerful. And, um, And we want to give people a chance to work on their journals and reflect as well. So what we've done in the past is we would break people into pods or pairs. And so they would be able to reflect off of each other and work on that. That's part of their journals. And they come back and talk about what's coming through for them. see ads, it's very interactive. And one of the questions that we get to in terms of immersive art meditation, like do people create art while they're in the session, it's usually focused around a pre existing piece. But we have had a session like this session with With Freya, right? Where people drew their version of a goddess. So it would break out the pencil and paper, the colored pencils, and people would be able to draw their version of a goddess. So being able to tap into their own sense of love, self-love, and flourish is so much of what she represents. Yeah, that sounds... therapeutic in so many ways. Sometimes, you know, we already spoke about language and the limits to, to language, but what happens when you're immersed in a story, you're being inspired by imagery and then you yourself are actually creating that imagery. I think it shows a more true picture of where you're at and the interpretation of that goddess or that journey, or, you know, I, I think on some level too, it speaks to the idea of, um, we think of mythology as this story, but not many people think of mythology as an ever-changing story. An example I think of is the myth of Sisyphus, where people see that as this guy rolling a boulder. But the older I get, the more I realize how heroic that is. That guy's going to do that every day and accept that. That is heroic on some level to realize the amount of you know, what you're doing. Like, you're just going to do that every day and be okay with that. Like on some level, you could see that as like, dude, what the fuck is this person doing? They're going to do that. We're a bunch of dummies. But then if you think maybe that person has thought about that, maybe that person understands that what they're doing is for a higher good. Maybe that person understands that they're doing this thing and they, they're, they've already thought about that and they still do it. Like that's, That's like the definition of heroism on some level. So I see these myths as changing. As I get older, I'm like, I was the dummy. I never even saw that aspect. I never saw that perspective. You know, so myths can teach us this new perspective, and it changes as we change on some level, right? Yeah. Yeah. No, most definitely. And going back to the multifacetedness. Yeah. Right? Like whenever I hear somebody say like, oh, it's this and not that, right? yes there's there's just always this kind of antenna that goes off my brain like are you sure there can be just just some things that are just so kind of off the mark you know it really is just kind of a lens that that person puts on that's not really true what that is you know but yeah the more I look at things the more i you know, turn the, I've always been like a really curious person that more, you know, turn things around in my hand and see the different sides of it. You know how there can be, even there can even be meanings on this side that seem to be contradictory to the ones on this side. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, God, you got to respect paradox. It's just, it's just written in. Yeah. You know? Yeah. um so tremendous respect for for the what seemed to be contradictory meanings which are actually complementary which actually exists on the same thing right but um you know like my my you know my journey with fatherhood well speaking to the you know the ever pushing aspect right yeah being uh being a stepfather I do a lot of the same thing throughout the day, day in and day out. We have the same morning routine. We have a lot of structure that's built in, a lot of things that we just do a lot of the same thing every day. We definitely have variation. We definitely have enlightenment and fun. We definitely live fun lives. know being a stepfather what that means what you know why holding that means I consciously step into this family I consciously like I was a bachelor for many many years you know like very insistent for most of my life right and even you know there's this refrain from you know hear this from family like when are you gonna get married when are you gonna do this and that and I was like hmm No, it's not what I wanted to do. There was no part of me that wanted to do that for a long time. Right. And I had to come to that realization. I had to come to that, that place in myself. And it was, it was actually during lockdown. It was during, you know, when we were all inside and horrible as that was, you know, for some people, I think for a lot of introverts, that was like, Oh goody, I get to do whatever I want by myself for a long period of time, you know? But but I definitely had that sense of how do I want to really spend the rest of my days? You know, how do I actually want to spend the rest of my life? It caused me to think about that. Yeah. Right. And so I finally got to that place where I'm like, yeah, I I want to be a father. I want to be married. I want to find that person. Right. And it's it was. It seemed to. just almost instantly appear in my life once I accepted that once once I incorporated that uh once I got once I finally got to that place and it really it really hit me I really had the felt experience of yeah of that realization you know and so um so to me it's it's it's a tremendous honor know and to know that I just like I chose xavier as my son you know even before I like even before I knew him I'm like wow that is one amazing child like he sounds like an amazing human being I would love to know him you know and I would love to be an important part of his life you know so yeah yeah It's the journey and you really never know what is around that next corner too. And you could be going through something, you could be going through a challenge in your life and it seems like you can get kind of lost in it or whatever. But to know that that can correlate with part of the story, to know that that challenge can actually be one of those phases and that there is a way that you can consciously move through. And you can think like, whoa, you know what? This seems daunting, but it's actually all OK. It seems like what can seem insurmountable can be passing. And then that brings a relief to your life. Suddenly, it's not just this arbitrary, random, overwhelming thing that's just burdening down upon you. that there's something that you can, there's a way that you can approach it. There's a way you can think about it. There's a way that you can move through it. You can be okay. You can be better than okay. You can be better than you came out, you know, better than you came into it, actually, so much of the time, you know? I do. It brings up, like, I, It's fascinating to me to think about the conversation thus far as we spoke about symbols and rooms and imagery. And even though these things are static on paper or we can look at an image of it, of a symbol, it gives us the courage to become that symbol embodied. Like we can embody that symbol. Then we becoming the living symbol for someone else to see in action. I get goosebumps thinking about like how powerful that transference is, right? Like if you study a symbol long enough, then you can become that symbol to someone else in real life. Boom. That's magic, man. That's power right there. Very well said. Very, very, very well said to embody, to embody that symbol. And that's that sounds to me like what you were describing in the beginning were like, listen, George, when I create this artwork and someone can see it like that is that is transference. Like you've got the message of that symbol and you have successfully transferred that meaning for someone else to find. You've become a medium for that symbol like that's. I don't know, man. I hesitate to find a better word than beautiful for that. I don't know if there is a better word for that. It is. It is. It's astoundingly beautiful and honoring. Yeah, honoring. That's a great one. The challenges that can... that can actually lead to strengths on the other side too you know I spent okay so I'm like I'm on the spectrum I was diagnosed with osbergers when I was when I was like in high school and I've spent a lot of time uh not being understood by people and you know there's a long period of time like kind of struggling to articulate myself and to to be understood you know I felt like I had to try really hard to, you know, to form my words in ways that could connect with people and for them to understand, you know, especially, oh my God, especially growing up, even like before, you know, I was diagnosed or whatever, that type of thing, just, you know, just growing up and things that, may make sense to me, but it may seem off to another person, that sort of thing. So that desire, that deep yearning to be understood, yeah feeling that like there's this vastness that save like the vastness of storytelling this vastness within myself that needs to come out you know and so it comes out through the artwork and so I mean I'm I'm being pretty vulnerable here and saying this but um I think a lot of a lot of that is that urgency that comes through the artwork like let me let me show you This let me show you what I feel inside myself, let me show you this immense beauty this immense vast world that comes through me through the artwork. And so you know there's a part of that that's self expressive for sure you know, but it's like what I'm focused on and what drives me. Is something of substance that goes even deeper than me and even know you know even beyond this, you know this person matt mays right. It's, you know, it's what I am enchanted by that comes through me, right? And talking about becoming the symbol, becoming the thing, you know? And the more that that enchantment takes hold, the more that I become an embodiment of that. And that's know that's what you feel through artists right is what's coming through that that artist that they feel coming through them right they then get to become an embodiment of that thing and you can just feel it off of that creator you know whether you're a visual artist or a musician or philosopher whatever it is that comes through you that people can just feel that off of you you know So that's so much of where that comes from. And, you know, every piece of artwork that I create, I really, I throw, I pull it, I throw in all the tricks in the bag, right? I throw in everything that I'm curious about, everything that's well relevant and can be composed into a single image. You know, that's something I deeply love to do. is take all of the things that are connected and relevant with the ideas that come through within the artwork and compile them into one thing you know compose them into one image I really feel like more of a composer in a lot of ways yeah in fact composition is my favorite part of the creative process right like how how you can weave the eye through the artwork where the rest where the points of focus are I love that you know and then from there I can just slope down all the details and stuff I mean I've been obsessed with detail I will you know my whole artistic journey I've just always I've always really loved going into the deep details of things right so that part is just just an absolute joy for me but um but the composition that's where it all has to come together is how you you know how you put it together how you how you choose to compose that piece, you know, the intention behind it. And, you know, I found so often that. I can. Like, I can put something there that may look cool at first and then I'll realize, like, oh, shit, like that actually adds to the story, like actually, you know, that actually has a place, has a place there. or by the opposite token, that there will be a negative space. I say negative space in terms of the artistic term, like the empty space within something, the empty space around something, where it'll seem like just the right fit for exactly that puzzle piece to go there. And then I'll put it in later, and I'll realize, wow, that was just made for that thing to go there. Do you ever think, like, I know that feeling, that feeling of like you created the piece, but you simultaneously created the most perfect piece without even knowing you made it. And you look back and you're like, holy shit, did I do that on purpose? How did I not do that? I love it. I love it. Right? That's so amazing. It's, oh my God. It's such a joy. It's such a charge. And another thing that I love is when someone will point something out within the artwork that perhaps I didn't even see there that adds to the story, right? They'll see something in there and, you know, like, wow, well, I mean, that's just perfect, you know, when, like, not even I saw it. And then I can see someone points something out that just, you know, brings the whole piece together. And so one example that's, would be in the beginning of the edge of myth series. It's funny, I even use the words in the beginning, the piece, by the way, about Eve from Book of Genesis, right, is while I was creating this piece, and she has duality about her. She has the motherhood, the fertility, really the origins, and then you have the chaos. You have the garden on fire, you have the smoke rising from the trees, but then you have the dove with the with the olive branch in its mouth, the redemption, right? And then you have this jellyfish symbol. You have this jellyfish on her neck, right? And at first I put this there and I'm like, well, you know, I thought a jellyfish looks very feminine. It's very, you know, very, you know, very cool. I think of it as very, you know, playful and, um, you know, feminine basically. So I, and, you know, aesthetically it looked very cool there and flowing and, you know, it's tentacles kind of, you know, kind of floating upwards. And so as I'm drawing in this jellyfish, my friend who at the time who was like watching me work on this comes up and he says did you know um a jellyfish is a symbol for eternal things I'm like whoa no I did not know that but when you consider the whole the whole cycle and the whole the whole story you know the legacy of humanity enduring throughout time you know going through chaos going through his trials and he had this this beauty of humanity that transcends all that is able to pass through all that you know so to me yeah things like that I'm like wow I mean that's just uncanny and mystical and amazing in so many different ways yeah it's it's I think it speaks to the idea that creation is create there's Again, we lack the words to describe it, but there is something that is creating through us, communicating to us. And when you can look back on that, whether it's through you seeing something in there that you didn't realize you created, or better yet, someone telling you a story that inspired them that you had no way of possibly knowing, or a symbol that you put on there, like... It gets us so close. It allows us to touch the fire, if you will. You know what I mean? To touch that fire that is unexplainable and be like, oh my God, I am part of something so much bigger than this. And I'm so blessed to be able on some way to... help other people see it. You know, we, I think so much in life, we talk about our deficits and we worry, we have this anxiety that we're not enough, but the truth is everybody can operate from a place of creativity. And when you do that, man, you are, you are becoming that fire of inspiration to other people. I think that you, Matt, are a fire of inspiration for people, man. I think the artwork is awesome. I think that the idea of an immersive therapy, man, is like it's cutting edge. And I love it, man. I'm super stoked to get to hear about it and think about it, man. What do you got coming up on the horizon, man? Is there going to be more? Do you have any – let me say it this way. What do you have coming up on the horizon that you're excited about? Thank you. First of all, thank you, too. I'm just so honored, and it's just amazing to be talking to you and amazing to be back here again. Vice versa. Yeah. so the biggest thing that I've got going on that we're building up immersive art meditation and we're going to be starting those sessions um upcoming early next year we're trying to we're trying to avoid the thing with the holidays and really give ourselves a good runway to build it up into you know to have a good robust group going in so we're really really excited about that and it's you know it really is yeah kind of our brainchild it really is kind of our our you know biggest co-creation that we're passionate about my wife helena and in terms of my own art right now and I'm working my way through the goddess series I call visions beyond the glass and it's an eleven part series uh featuring goddesses from different parts of the world you have know some who are more well known and some who are I think more uh more do is more do should be given to you know but once you're kind of more I should be more well known like sedna uh would be one of them inuit aquatic mother goddess she is kind of in the middle of the series but yeah I really want to do justice to representing different goddesses from different cultures you know and yeah seeing them in their um using their magics or using their you know using their abilities so being um being active through the artwork you know and not just like posing not just like in a cool pose or something like that but to really show them in their aliveness right something I yeah put a huge emphasis on and going back to the the norse I'm creating a an odin piece that I'm extremely excited about and I tell you um I really had to really you know I really had to wait until yeah I really felt the charge to go into that one you know because he just represents so many different sides there are just so many different parts of his of his story he just has so many different tales um so many different facets to him that um yeah just one day you know I had this canvas and I just just went in for this seven hour session with the pencils and just just did all the the outlines and did his um his spear gungnir it's a spear that never misses that always always hits its target and you have gary and frecky his two wolves and um hugen and munin these two raven ravens all these different parts of them but you know I've never seen um or how to say this all the all the odin artwork that I've seen has to seems to have a lot of the same type of elements which is cool you know like his wolves and his ravens very very popular is his spear of course but um But nothing that really captures so many of its different sides, so many of its different stories. So I think of this as a really passionate Odin fan's Odin. And then lastly, I have, I call this my visual art and storytelling masterpiece, is my graphic novel series, The Eyehacker Saga. which I've finally gotten to the point where I'm putting in the panels. Nice. Yeah. So I started this thing about five years ago. And, you know, I've always wanted to create a graphic novel ever since I picked up my first one at eighteen years old. And what I've found is you have to align the writer's vision and the artist's vision if you've got two people creating it. And what I've found is it's weirdly simpler, but more straightforward. If you have a story within yourself and you're an artist and you can write and illustrate it yourself, much like my first graphic novel, The Crow, james obar wrote and illustrated that whole thing all by himself and as we know it's a cult classic you know absolutely so um so yeah I just got completely enthralled in writing this story you know in creating this this story and you know for a number of months several months it was like all I could think about so I was just pulling down the pieces you know the puzzle pieces and arranging them into this whole story. And then after that, I put it down and came back to it a while later, did all the storyboards, all those type of things to really get the visuals in there, a bunch of concept art. And then I'm like, wow, that was a wild thing about the work. And then, yeah. And it's even got different languages. they're like I'm creating literally I'm creating different languages for different cultures within the story so it's a whole it's a whole thing I mean it's it's gonna take many many years to complete all of it but um yeah the more that I work on it the more you know I can say this with any artwork the more the higher degree of clarity the faster I can go because the more that you can And I would pass this on to any creators. The more you can eliminate that resistance, that like, what am I going to draw? What am I going to write? Sit down, break it down, figure out, sit with it, really try and articulate it. And then the more of that clarity that you can have, then the faster you can go. clarity is synonymous with speed right so now that I know what I'm doing and the story I mean I had to write it first before I would even know what to draw of course yeah right um so one has to come before the other but um but now being in this place it's like I can can really slope through those panels having all that all that clarity of you know how I wanted to look Yeah, that's a great tool for people. And I think it resonates with a lot of people who find themselves up against, you know, whether it be writer's block or any sort of creative endeavor, you find yourself questioning sometimes. It's almost like the signal doesn't come through the noise sometimes. And you just sit there and you wait and you're trying to tune it in. But yeah, the idea of gaining clarity to promote speed is... it's a great point. And sometimes I think it's, it's necessary to have those moments of, you know, there's a reason Tolkien's work took so long. He too was creating different languages. You know what I mean? Is that an easy thing to do? And once you create a language, then you have to think about, okay, well, how does this language create a perspective? What would this person look like if they spoke that language? Is this a rough language? Is it a singing language? You know, it's, It's life's work, man. I see that in the patterns, man. It's wonderful. Thank you. If I could speak to that real quick. Yeah, please, man. What you got? And by the way, it's so cool to hear people make the Tolkien connection, too. That's another thing. I'm really humble and honored by that. I just think it's so cool that it comes up. And so I found that it's, again... weirdly simpler to create these multiple languages simultaneously rather than one by one the reason for that is because okay let's hear it I'm crazy but the reason the reasoning behind that is say starting with the sounds of different words so different languages right so say you can listen to someone speaking a certain language. This is how I like to think of it. You can listen to someone speaking, speaking German or speaking Japanese or French, you know, and while you might not may or may not understand what's being said, you can understand that that's what that language sounds like. You know, you can hear what French sounds like. It has a certain flavor, a certain characteristic to it. Right. So following that same logic, Starting with the sounds of the different languages first, you kind of alluded to it just now. You can have one that sounds rougher, one that sounds more flourishy and smooth and more beautified. Starting with that and the different sounds of them, you start with those different sounds, then you can start to arrange the words based on which one they sound like which one they sound sound most like you know does this one have more of a j or this one have like a cup that sort of thing you know those are very distinct from one another you know so starting right starting with that and then you can then you can really articulate what those uh what those words are and I would really suggest being inspired by existing languages too so um so you know for example for those who watch game of thrones if you know that the dothraki the you know race of horse uh horsemen um so their language was actually inspired by mongolia right so I was able to find so knowing that it's very helpful and then uh I was able to find a free dothraki dictionary online there's a pdf you can find yes you can you can find a free dothraki dictionary online and then I looked at what are some of those sounds of that language right and so without like well you know I could I can compile those and say like which you know which ones are those kind of do I want to remix into this language right And so I wrote out what languages have been inspired by which different languages. Again, going for clarity before I even go for too much detail, for too much articulation, starting with this game up here with the understanding and the clarity. And then figuring out how. It's a fun challenge. It's a fun puzzle. like creating these different languages. And, you know, that goes with different cultures too. So, you know, how they dress, how they look, what their mannerisms are, what their customs are, things like that. I mean, really, if you're, I mean, you're really going into world building, you know, all this stuff takes. I mean, I've really long had a tremendous respect for writers for that reason. Yeah. is because you have to be the master of that universe that you're creating. And it's, again, weirdly simpler if you are creating that whole world, because no one's telling you what the right rules are. But there are definitely things that apply. You have to make it believable. That's the challenge, is to take this invented world and make it believable. Yeah, I agree. It's interesting you bring that up. I'm a huge fan of like Brandon Sanderson and some of these other sci-fi or fantasy books that the idea of... Patrick Ruthless is another great one. But they create these worlds that you can inhabit on some level. And it's just an inspiration to creation. But I see that same... The same thing that attracts me to world building is the same thing that attracts me to the world you're building. I think that you have those same skills and you're sharing them with people, which a lot of people don't do. I think that's super awesome, man. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for doing it, man. So, well, I would invite everybody within the sound of my voice to, whether you're listening live tomorrow or ten years from now, to go down to the show notes and check out Matt Mays. Reach out to him. He's got an incredible collection of artwork. He sees the world. I think from this conversation, you get an idea of what it takes to create different worlds and how he creates, more importantly, is a window into how he creates, which I think is magical. And go down, check him out. If you'd like this conversation, reach out to him. I know he does consultation. He does artwork. Him and his wife have a really cool practice of this immersive meditation. And yeah, reach out to him. And ladies and gentlemen, that's what we got for today. Hang on afterwards, Matt, briefly afterwards. But to everybody else, thank you so much for spending some time with us. I hope you have a beautiful day. That's all we got. Aloha. Right on. Thank you, everybody. George, this is a real joy. I've really been looking forward to this. Super awesome. And just a pleasure. Absolute pleasure. Right back at you, man. Well, hang on. I'll talk to you briefly afterwards and then we'll end it here for these guys. Thank you so much, everybody. Aloha. Peace out.