Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. I hope everybody is having a beautiful day. I hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back. I hope you got a nice cup of coffee, a cold drink, or maybe you found a little bit of cannabis to roll up because we're going to get into this today. We're talking to the one and only Dr. Andy Mansfield. We may have our good friend Matt Ritchie joining us. So let me just welcome everyone to today's episode where we're going to dive into the evolving world of cannabis with two incredible guests. Joining us is Dr. Andy Mansfeld, a German-born U.S. race physician whose journey has spanned continents and industries. After years of practicing medicine in Colorado, Andy pivoted to the business side of health care, eventually co-founding a medical cannabis cultivation business in Portugal. His mission to unlock the therapeutic potential of cannabis and improve patient care worldwide. Also, who may or may not be joining us today. Matt, if you're out there, jump in. You got the link. Also with us could be Matt Ritchie, entrepreneur and founder of Inner Circle, a community dedicated to raising the standard of integrity in the cannabis industry. Matt's vision goes beyond business. He's creating spaces for leaders to grow, learn, and collaborate in an industry that's both rapidly expanding and facing unique challenges. Today, we will explore the intersection of medicine, business leadership, and the future of cannabis in a conversation filled with insight, speculation, and innovation. Dr. Andy, thanks so much for being here today. How are you? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me again. Uh, how are you? I'm doing great, man. Thanks for asking. I, you know, I just recently made this move from Hawaii to the Bay area and it's been a nothing short of spectacular in so many ways. It's such a growing experience. And when I think of growing, I think of cannabis, man. What's, what's shaking on your side? Uh, I mean, I'm staying busy. Uh, I've got my company over here at EU Canada jobs where we, uh, try and, uh, to job posts and recruiting for the cannabis industry in Europe. So we're busy. There's a lot happening in Europe. So a lot of companies are coming and either being started in Europe or trying to come over from North America over here. So definitely a lot of activity over here. How is it, you say there's lots of companies that are moving over that way to open up. Is that because of the fertile ground that the EU is for cannabis right now? Like, is it, is it a good time to start jumping over there? Is it, is it, is it, you know, a sort of blue ocean over there or how come people are jumping ship and headed over your way? Um, I wouldn't say it's a blue ocean, uh, as much as I wish I could. Uh, yeah, there's, uh, turbulent waters, but there is more sunlight on the horizon than maybe in the recent past. Like in Germany, for instance, medical cannabis has been illegal since two thousand seventeen, but now just since April first of this year, we've had fully legal cannabis in Germany. You can't buy it anywhere, but you can grow it yourself at home and you can have it on your body. You can have it at home and it's completely legal. So there's a lot of stuff happening. A lot of other countries are opening up to medical cannabis and looking at different types of legalization on their own. Switzerland now has recreational sales in the form of pilot projects. and Germany's looking at that, Czech Republic's looking at it. So there's a lot going on, but there's a lot of politics just like in the US involved in all of this. So Germany two years ago was saying, or three years ago was saying they're going to come up with a full recreational market. And then the EU and internal politics got involved and kind of put a kibosh on that. So you've had this roller coaster ride like every like every country's cannabis journey is a roller coaster, it seems like, you know. And so that's what it's been here, too. But I think for investors and companies, they're seeing that things have progressed to a certain point where they feel more comfortable starting to look at investing here again. Yeah. I'm sure it's multifaceted. However, what is it in government? Is it an idea of regulation? Is it an idea of commercialization? Is it all these things sort of tied together? People are sort of trying to figure out where they fit into the supply chain. Is it all of it or is there something in particular that seems to be one of the biggest obstacles in the way of getting not only recreational but full legalization? Yeah, I mean, it's kind of funny and sad in a way. I mean, if you were to take out the difference in language and take out some of the names and just kind of make it a little bit more generic, then the arguments and the stuff that people are saying would sound very similar from one country to the next country to the US, from one state to the next state in the US. You know, all these things that were being said ten, twenty years ago in the U.S. about if you legalize, all the kids are going to be smoking pot everywhere. Cars, everyone's going to be crashing their cars. They're so high and everyone's going to turn into heroin addicts. And, you know, I can't even remember what else all this crap is that people say. All the same stuff is being said here. You know, it's like, well, I mean, you've got two very large countries. Well, one very large country in Canada's population. Canada's not that huge, but You know, you've got North America with two large countries who have gone through this process. And I mean, you know, the US not as a whole, but on many different state levels. And you've got tons of data showing that less kids smoke pot then and less car accidents from drunk driving, less people dying from overdoses on other drugs, both prescription drugs and other recreational drugs like heroin stuff. Yeah. So the data is out there showing that it actually better for society. Yet people over here are saying the same ridiculous stuff. And it's like, you have to laugh at it, but it's sad. One of the big arguments actually that, especially in Germany and now in other European countries have been making is that in order to protect children, you need to have the black market. And that's one of the big arguments, because I mean, a dealer doesn't care if you sell it to a fifteen year old or thirty year old. Either way, it's against the law, you know, and so they don't necessarily differentiate. Maybe a few do, but I think most don't. That and then the other big argument was that it's a health concern that an unregulated market, you know, the the people are going to be using it and buying it from the black market. You don't know how poisonous this cannabis is with whatever, pesticides, heavy metals, whatever. Anything can be in it because, once again, it's illegal, so they don't care. The dealers and the growers, they don't care. So that was the other big point is if people are going to be using it, really it's a public health issue if it's not controlled somehow and regulated. And that seems to have been an argument that many people could buy into. uh, both in the public, both in the government, uh, all the other governments in different countries are now, you know, they're all kind of saying the same thing now on the same speaking from the same playbook, so to speak. Um, and it makes sense, you know, um, um, in the U S I don't know, I don't know that those arguments were really made. I feel like in the U S it was more of a personal freedom and a financial thing, you know, that look, we can get a bunch of tax money and fix all our government woes. Um, Although, of course, you give more money to the government, they're still going to need more money. It's a bottomless pit. But I think there in the U.S., it wasn't addressed as a health thing, but more as a tax money and personal freedom kind of thing. Yeah. I'm excited for it. I think that... I think that there is plenty of room for everybody. And I really wish that there could be more influence and that we could somehow... I know there's a lot of argumentation about pre-existing products on the market. Let's say alcohol is probably... Big alcohol, big pharma is probably worried about this new thing coming in and elbowing out some of the profits. However, there's plenty of room for everybody. I don't see why some of the alcohol companies can't start getting behind cannabis-infused drinks. I don't see why some of the medical or big pharma industry can't get their arms wrapped around some of these incredible experiments that are happening with epilepsy. There's tons of applications for this, and there's enough for everybody. So if indeed the argument that big boys are trying to sort of crowd out the small guy, I think that there's enough for everybody out there. And once we start figuring that out, once we start kind of coming from a place of abundance instead of scarcity, I think we're going to have more of an adult view of what this industry can be. And I think that we've, we've seen it in Canada. I know that we're seeing it here in, in where I am in California and different parts of it. Yeah. There's some bumps along the way, but there's plenty for everybody. Like what, what's your take on that? Is there, is there infighting going on between people or do you think we're going to start embracing the idea of sort of abundance when it comes to industries like psychedelics and cannabis? Yeah. I mean, here in Europe, you're not saying it yet because it's still very niche and quite small. Right. Um, but certainly you're seeing in the U S you know, I mean, the studies are coming out now saying people are drinking less alcohol and they have the data to show that people are saying I'm drinking less alcohol because I'm using cannabis. You know, so first people were saying, Oh, you know, if it affects alcohol, you know, it won't be necessarily because of cannabis, but now literally they have the surveys where people are like, yeah, I don't drink as much or I drink, quit drinking. I just use cannabis. Um, which, I mean, that surprised me. A lot of things about cannabis have surprised me, uh, including that it can be, it's being used for all kinds of mental health conditions and things. So, you know, that's where the power of studies and information comes is, is that. No one knows exactly where anything's going to end up. And until you look at it and collect data, then you say, oh, that's surprising. So here you aren't seeing that yet. But I mean, I think, I think the whole, the way the whole, the whole world is built up on this system of you have to grow and always have to get more money in order to be considered okay. I mean, even society is built up on if you're, economy isn't growing, then it's the end of the world. Which leads to this whole concept of everyone has to keep purchasing more crap. Why can't we say, I don't need a ton of new clothing every year. I don't need to spend a ton of money every year buying things. Once I have my house that's full of furniture, why do I need all this more stuff? What do I really need more of? I need more food. I need more stuff to drink, maybe more cannabis or other or whatever. But I mean, I don't need I need maybe more toilet paper. I mean, I don't need why do I need three thousand dollars worth of new new clothing and furniture every year? I mean, then I have to throw away the old stuff. But that's the way society is even built up. And same with these alcohol companies are like, well, if we're not growing, then we're out of business. Like, well, why not say OK, we used to be a three billion dollar company, but we're going to but the economy or the economics isn't going to work that way anymore. So now we're going to be a two point five billion dollar company, but we're still going to be making a ton of profit. Yeah, but they're like, you know, if we lose market share, then somehow the world has ended for them, which I mean, I'm not an economics person and sure, some economics people are going to listen to this and say, you just don't understand the system. And I'm sure I don't understand. But, you know, it's just like I used to make a ton more money being a doctor than I make now. So, you know, I mean, doesn't mean the end of the world. It just means I spend less money, you know. And but that's not the way systems work, unfortunately. I mean, if you look at hunter-gatherer tribes, they don't go gather more and more food. They're like, what do we need? Oh, we got what we need. Well, okay. They don't build bigger and more houses. They're like, we all have a place to sleep. We don't need more. Then they have more free time to do whatever they want to do, have their ceremonies or whatever. But somehow the modern world has decided you have to keep accumulating crap. And that's the same with the companies. They don't want to split the pie. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. I can't help but think about the relationship between cannabis and creativity. And what you're explaining to me seems to, when we look at the world as it's kind of been for a while, especially in a world that runs on alcohol and caffeine, I think that what you're seeing is a world of mass consumption. Profit margins and companies are built on excess consumption. And the drugs we've been running on have been caffeine products. a little bit of nicotine, and alcohol. These are perfect drugs in order to run a mindless society. You know what I mean? You just get wasted, and then you get some energy to finish making this widget at the widget shop. You come home, and you pass out, and you wake up and do it again. It's mindless. So is growth on that level. It's mindless. But I think you're in a very unique position where you are, and thank you for taking the leap of courage to live a life worth meaning by doing something you love doing and when you look at EU Canada jobs let's let's shift gears and talk about what EU Canada jobs is and and maybe some of the opportunities and changes you see on the horizon maybe you could start off by defining what you're doing now what EU Canada job is and we can jump into that yeah yeah sure thanks um so EU Canada jobs we've been around three four years something like that and um Like you mentioned at the beginning, I was first involved in a cultivation project here in Portugal and realized then that it was very difficult to find people to work in the cannabis industry here in Europe. And being familiar with a lot of big platforms in the U.S., I was like, well, this is a niche that is asking to be filled or a gap that's asking to be filled. And so I started a can jobs and we do two things. We are jobs platforms where people can post their jobs for a low amount, just fifty euros a month per job, which is really cheap. And that allows startups and even bigger companies who are looking for entry level people, a cheap, easy solution to try and find workers. And then we also do recruiting for the higher level positions. And certainly right now in cannabis, recruiting is quite important because there aren't that many candidates necessarily. So if a company is looking for a specific more experienced, higher technical skilled person tends to require having a recruiter who can go out and actively go talk to, reach out to candidates, say, hey, I know you might not be looking right now, but hey, would you consider switching jobs or companies? So I think right now, because it's such a new industry, that's important. And so that's what we're doing. We're connecting companies with people who are looking for jobs or helping find those people for the companies. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I would love to hear about some of the opportunities you see on the rise. And one that I have seen recently is I talked to William Zorn, who's a younger guy, super smart. He's on the ball and he's sort of a Twitch gamer. And he's been working with the cannabis industry on some level. You know, I think we're always on the lookout for what can evolve. And one thing that I see that maybe not a whole lot of people are talking about is the sort of relationship between gaming and cannabis. Who hasn't had some cannabis and played a great video game? There's a big part of awareness that comes from ingesting some cannabis. Maybe the colors are a little brighter. Maybe you think a little bit different. Maybe you're more creative. Maybe you're more intuitive. Like that's something that I see on the horizon that could be a strategy for people to start looking into. So all my friends at Inner Circle, Matt Ritchie, I'm looking at you, man. What are you doing with cannabis and the gaming industry? But Andy, what else is there? Have you thought about that? And what are some other cool things you kind of see on the horizon? Yeah, I mean, I hadn't thought about that per se, but I think, I mean, a lot of it really depends on where the legal situation ends up going here in Europe. So now we've got just as of, as of July first in Germany, you've got cannabis social clubs, but they're just now starting to get licensed and stuff like that in a few places. Right. But that doesn't create a ton of jobs, you know, but with your, if the recreational were to come through, then all of a sudden you're going to have dispensaries and, and you know, more logistics and distribution people and all these different things, which would open up and, you know, dispensaries would be amazing because dispensaries are great for entry level people. Right. You know, Uh, it's a great way for people to get into the industry and, you know, you bust your butt, uh, and you're a salesperson somewhere else or your brand, not even sales, but you can get into a dispensary and work your way up to dispensary manager. And from there through the organization, all of a sudden you've got more and more opportunities, uh, because right now there's not a ton of entry level stuff in cannabis. Uh, so that's one of the reasons I was really hopeful for dispensaries. I mean, despite not just the whole recreational aspect of it, but for jobs, it just opens up so much entry level stuff for people, you know, because it is, it can be so difficult for people to get into, into the industry right now. You know, but where, what kind of like innovative, interesting kind of stuff? I don't know if there's going to be, I mean, there always will be stuff that comes up that no one's upcoming, you know, I didn't see, but I don't know that Germany is going to have, or Europe's going to have anything. hugely innovative right now because we're going down this path of medical cannabis right now and following that path. And it's very regulated and a fairly straight path. There's not a lot of room in Europe right now to go off and do a lot of innovative work. Even edibles are for the most part not allowed in most European countries due to novel food laws in the EU and things like that. So a lot of the things that, a lot of the places where you had innovation and still have innovation in the US, you don't have so much room for. Here, I guess it would be the innovative part would be more on the extraction and formulation side. or mode of transport, mode of ingestion, like inhaled products and things like that maybe, which is all interesting and stuff. But these are then people who have a big background in medical devices and in pharma basically. So once again, not necessarily a lot of room for a lot of other people to jump in, I would say. Yeah. You know, for guys like us who have seen the evolution of our relationship with cannabis, you know, when we were young, you would go to Chewy down the street and get a bag of White Widow. You know, or something crazy. You didn't really know what it was. Sometimes you go, that's a cannabis. It's a sativa. You know, you didn't really know, man, but you got it. And your friend's buddy had it. Your friend's older brother had it. And now you have like these incredible apps with like a Terp profile or, you know, that there's so much more we know about the cannabinoid system and profiles and stuff. Like it's maybe you could tell our listeners and our audience about some of the changes that you have seen, because I'm sure they've been pretty profound where you're at in Germany. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think, like you said, you know, just the amount of knowledge that's out there and that that is just continuing. I mean, the basic knowledge is exploding. When we were young, I mean, there was no one even I don't even know when the term entourage effect came out, you know, but it wasn't around when we were young. You know, I mean, you were just high, you got high off. And now it's like, oh, well, you're breaking it down into, like you said, terpenes and minor cannabis and THC and CBD and how it all interacts with the entourage effect. It's like, huh? And now, you know, one of the big questions is, are terpenes a big part of the entourage effect or not? And People are really trying to do some of the basic science to figure this stuff out. And I mean, I think that's really interesting. In the end, I think it's something that we're going to need AI to help us figure out because you've got hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands, probably of different compounds at different levels to end up with some effect at the end. And I think it's just so complicated that it's something that our little brains can't really figure out. But I think the amount of knowledge that's out there on the basic science side is one of the biggest changes now. Also, all these studies that are coming out, medical studies, where you're seeing, like I mentioned earlier, mental health problems. I kind of always thought that it was clear to me it would be great for chronic pain, maybe some other things. For a long time, it's been looking like it would be good for epilepsy in children and things like that, for MS, muscle problems. but for me, the one of the bigger surprises is that can help people with bipolar and schizophrenia and, and even depression and things like that. Cause you know, when we were younger, it was just common. Uh, the common myth was that it's a, it makes you depressed and lazy and all these things, which has now also been shown through studies, not to be the case, but I bought into it. So I was like, well, it's not going to help your depression. We'll make your depression worse, which no, it's not the case. Yeah. Um, So I think just all this knowledge that's coming out and information that is showing us that even what we believed is not the case. And I think the world is a better place for it. Patients are in a better position for it. It'd just be nice to see society and governments and medicine as a whole actually look at the data and then make decisions based off of that. versus off of fear mongering and, and, you know, and the old myths, which have been disproven for the most part. Yeah. That's, it's really well said. And it kind of, it, it kind of, it brings up this question. It's, it's not directly, I guess maybe it is directly related in your opinion. And we're just two guys talking here. No one's prescribing anything and we're not giving any medical advice or anything. However, I'm curious to get your opinion on some level in, isn't it weird? Like the terminology we use, like when you do, if you smoke cannabis or you do some mushrooms, like you get high. And when I think of being high, I think of getting my perspective changed. I think of seeing things in a different way, kind of looking down without a whole lot of emotion, but seeing things clearly and, and how much of the medical experience, effects of cannabis are from having a new perspective about your life. It doesn't really make you depressed or lazy. It may make you upset about the life you're living, but that's different than depression. You may say clearly for the first time. When you get high, you have a perspective of like, holy shit, what am I doing? I'm going to get up and leave my family every single day to go make a handful of dimes from some guy that I hate in a job I don't like doing? What the am I doing? That's enough to start changing your life a little bit. How much of these particular plant medicines aren't causing problems, but just causing a shift in perspective to help us live a better life? Dr. Justin Marchegiani Well, I mean, I think if you look at the medical side of cannabis, I think you don't even need to get high actually to get the benefits of medical cannabis. Evan Brand Right. Well said. Dr. Justin Marchegiani you know, it's quite the opposite. You know, probably for most conditions, a more balanced CBD THC profile is probably better than super high THC where you're just super high. It's just typically most of the time that's what studies are showing that, yeah, being super high isn't what makes pain go away. It's the combination of all the materiality in it. But I think what's really interesting is all the information now coming out about psychedelics. And those, I think, those are more don't have to be super high on psychedelics apparently to get this change but they it's the change like you were describing you know the uh change in in attitude or the way you view things uh somehow you know the yeah the effects of the psychedelics kind of rewire your brain a little bit and let you see things from a different perspective um and That's what allows psychedelics apparently to really be helpful for PTSD and severe depression and these other things that are not responding to any other treatments. But all of a sudden, this complete rewiring of the brain or something allows people to make progress with these severe mental health conditions that up until then, people weren't getting making any progress with any of the traditional you know pills basically Yeah, that brings up an interesting point. You know, we spoke briefly about the cannabinoid system and really not because it's so complex. We don't thoroughly understand the mechanism of action. However, isn't that also true for the majority of science and pills people take like SSRIs? Like, yeah, we know serotonin, we know this thing, but we don't thoroughly understand the mechanism of action of what's happening in those particular compounds either, do we? No, for the most part, with mental health drugs, we don't know what the hell's going on. That's so crazy, right? I mean, like blood pressure pills and stuff, they're like, oh, we know almost down to which molecules are being affected to open up different pathways in each cell and blah, blah, blah, all this stuff with blood pressure pills and things like that. But yeah, for mental health stuff, it's like, oh, somehow it works. And that's about all we know, you know? And, yeah, it's crazy. It's scary in a way. But it's also why, I mean, that's also why we don't really understand to a large degree why some people respond to depression medicines and not to others. And even within the same group of SSRIs, you might try three different ones before you find one that works for someone, even though technically they're all doing the same thing. in the body as far as we can tell, but then all of a sudden one works and the other it's done. They actually have had a genetic testing out for over a decade now where you can actually do genetic tests, which can help figure out which depressants will and will not work for you potentially, you know, which is a step in the right direction too. But in the end, like you said, we don't really understand why most mental health medications work. So it's weird. And I think that this is the secret that so many people are trying to keep in the background. And I think psychedelics, cannabis, and just consciousness itself is sort of a threat to that. The truth is we don't know what happens. And when you start... It's showing like all these tests with cannabis, like, hey, here's this cannabinoid system. It's really complex. We don't understand it. Then you start thinking like, well, what the hell's up with SSRIs? Like, it's like one thought leads to the next. And I think that that is what a big part of pharma and, you know, governments are afraid of is like, listen, man, we've been running on a narrative for a long time, you know? a long time. We've been lying to people about it. Maybe lying is not the right word. Maybe we've had great intentions to help people and we're trying to do that, but we don't know and we don't want to tell people we don't know. We're running away from the very thing that would free us on some level. I see... the narrative seems to be the most important part of our drug policy. Is that too far out there? Do you think that maybe cannabis, maybe psychedelics expose this idea that we really don't know what we're doing? And a lot of these studies are company science. I mean, I don't think it's that much of a conspiracy per se. Yeah, I would say And also you're giving politicians a bit too much credit for being that smart. That's so true. You know, I mean, they all have their own motivations, most of which are not good and pure. Let's put it that way. But, you know, the drug companies just want to keep making more money. They don't give a rat's ass about the patients in the end. You know, they're not part of the conspiracy with the government, except for, you know, they're trying to tell the government to not allow cannabis, but because they're like, oh, well, we're going to lose money. Because people use that instead of buying our pills. So we don't want it. And then they give money to politicians and say, hey, here, here's fifty grand or a hundred grand or whatever for your election campaign. Just vote against cannabis. Yeah. So, I mean, that's that's that is a conspiracy of sorts. But I don't think it goes much deeper than that. And then the politicians, they're just like, oh, someone gave me a hundred grand to be anti-cannabis. I'm anti-cannabis. Yeah. They don't even think about it. They don't care. Yeah. They just care that someone gave them a check that or they've always been anti-cannabis because it's the devil's weed. And so they're going to stay anti-cannabis. They don't care one bit what the evidence shows, you know, because they're a good person. They're against it. You know, and then they drink and drive and then write their wife, you know, and, you know, but they're a good person. And this weed spiker is a bad person. I mean, it's just the hypocrisy and stuff. But like I said, I think you're giving too much credit to think that they're all in some complex thought process about this. They're just greedy, shallow people in the end, I think. Yeah, I think that's what's then. Which is actually giving them a compliment in a way. Yeah. yeah it's classic I it's like the old george carlin joke don't do don't do their drugs do our drugs you know it's so funny to think about right but well and you know the whole concept that that a plant that grows naturally is somehow so so dangerous but things that are completely created in the laboratory yeah that have no natural precursor Somehow that is safer and better for your health than taking a medication that literally grows on a plant in the sun. That's the craziest part about it. It'd be like saying the super processed food is healthier than the whole vegetable. It's actually people believed for a while too. Now people are finally turning back to, oh, we should eat whole grains and fresh fruits and vegetables and not stuff out of a can. Yeah, you know what? That's a that's a brilliant point. Isn't that interesting? Like we see these changes happening not only in the cannabis industry, but in the world. Like you're right, we are moving back. It seems like we've on some level, at least yourself and me and and all these people in the chat over here, it seems that we have figured out, okay, we've gone way too far down this road of processed foods, cheap garbage, and consumption. Let's start pulling back. And we see it. Let's do a little more farm to table. Let's maybe worry about the plant instead of the... Do you see this as maybe a generational shift that's happening? Or when you pan back and look at the big picture, is that what we're seeing? A change in attitude or a change in generations, like a generational shift towards... Something I think I think we are and I certainly hope we are you know, I mean, you know, it was you know The the baby boomers are the ones that you know kind of destroyed the world my generation is kind of the generation that started opening our eyes and now the Generation that's a couple behind me, you know, the young the young people are the ones who are now saying you guys fucked us. Yeah you fucked us and Now we're inheriting a world that may not be around long enough for us to live out our natural life. And so as a whole, I think the younger generations are saying this can't keep going on. We don't need all this plastic. We need a place to breathe and grow food and stuff. So it is a generational change, I think. Is it too late? I mean, probably never too late, but certainly a lot of damage has been done, you know? Yeah. It's interesting to think about. On a similar vein of thought, I was recently speaking with Dr. Brad Stewart about palliative care and the role of cannabis and psychedelics in palliative care. You know, and isn't it interesting how sometimes... know, a trip or a high dose of cannabis, especially if you eat, it can definitely have the same effect, but it can help sort of ease the tension or ease the shame or ease the, you know, the fear of death on some level. And whether it's a fear of you as an individual dying, a fear of your company dying, fear of your ideas dying. Like, do you, do you guys talk about that over in Europe, the, the use of psychedelics or cannabis towards end of life? Uh, yeah, I mean, it's definitely being, um, um, looked at here, uh, and there's studies happening over here, just like there have been in the U S um, I'm not really very familiar and in touch with, with what's happening there. Um, and, um, part of that is, I mean, I'm very interested in it, but, um, but that's not a lot of jobs being produced in that area. And, and although I want my company to be more involved in that area when, when I have to start trying to fill positions. Um, I don't want to get too distracted from what we're working on now, you know, cause it's easy to, to just get, get, get distracted, but it is, there is a lot of research being done over here about that also. And it is very interesting. Um, and the studies about end of life stuff with psychedelics, um, I'm paraphrasing obviously, but basically that it helps people. lose that fear of death after they've used psychedelics. And I don't remember exactly what it was or what the people had described. But basically, they had a trip. And then they're like, I'm not worried about dying anymore. I'm fine with it. That's incredible. Obviously, that's one of the worst things about dying is the fear of it. Yeah. That seems to me to be one of the biggest audiences or the biggest target markets for anything moving forward is like the aging group of baby boomers. And what like if you have this target audience with a little bit of disposable income, you know, you see so many of them clutching at the straws of longevity. Like, oh, if I can just get this, if I, you know, I've been reading these studies about rapamycin or I've been reading these studies about metformin or, you know what, I'm going to take this this other thing like. I think a really rich environment that would be really healthy for that age group or a young entrepreneur would be to equate the idea of cannabis and psychedelics. Because especially now, like you talked about some genetic testing and TERT profiles. I bet you there's strains that could be marketed towards people towards the end of life. Like, hey, just try this. just try this a few times. Like, I think you could really open up a world of ideas and comfort to an aging population. If we could get some more research out there, what do you think is that? How does that sound for an opportunity for a young entrepreneur? Yeah. I mean, I think, I think there could, that could be very interesting to look at. Um, I mean, the irony is that that's the generation that gave us the war on drugs. Of course. Yeah. So, I mean, that's, that's one of the, that's one of the, the issues that you, that would have to be overcome is convincing them that now they should take drugs, not just cannabis, but psychedelics, which is a much harder, you know, harder drug in their mind, I think, or in society's view. Yeah. So, um, Fate loves irony, right? Fate loves irony. Yeah. People who trade more on drugs and set everyone who does it as a horrible person going to hell, they're going to use it to feel better about their passing and, going yeah yeah uh but I mean yeah I mean the the baby boomer the aging population I mean that's always always an area that's uh where entrepreneurs can look to see what you know where are the opportunities there for sure yeah yeah well I think it brings up a bigger point too like that I think that we're lacking connection on some level. And I think that cannabis and psychedelics do that. I think that they, they bring about a new form of awareness. And I think that we're, we're sort of missing rites of passage in our world. And if you look at what's happening, when we look at the baby boomers who are rapidly approaching the end of the mortality experience, like they need an opportunity to give back, you They should be teaching their wisdom to the next generation of people that are desperately thirsty for it. Like there's so many awesome boomers out there that have so many that have lived a life worth living, that have radical, beautiful experiences. And I wish that they would share that with the next generation because I think there's a lot of young men and women out there that are thirsty to learn about but are just sick of these sort of certification programs. And they're lacking the real connection that comes from learning from somebody that has that experience. I think cannabis could be a big role in that, man. What's your take on rites of passage and sort of aspect? I mean, certainly I would say, you know, starting to drink beer, smoking cannabis. Those are typical rites of passage for young people, you know, totally are. Or, you know, either in high school or then college, you know, I mean, even politicians, you know, famously multiple famous politicians have famously said stuff along the lines of, you know, when they were asked, when it was still taboo to admit that they've smoked cannabis, we're like, well, I mean, I did go to college, you know, either way. And yes. Right. You know? Um, so yeah, I mean, that's just part of, uh, popular folklore you know that yeah right you're gonna come up you try cannabis um yeah I think you know as far as for older people though um I mean I think it's you were talking about you know the the what the older people the stories they have to give um you know and if cannabis and I'm not sure how that would come together. You know, I mean, would it be a library program where the young people and the old people go and smoke a joint together and then just have a conversation? I think it would be clubs you're opening up over there. Aren't you guys beginning to open up some social clubs? Yeah, yeah. But unfortunately, even though they're called cannabis social clubs, they're just a growth. They're really a cultivation to grow club where you're not allowed to consume it. Whoa. Yeah, they're very, very strict about it. So unfortunately, that's not happening the way it would. It's not like a coffee shop in Amsterdam where you can go in, buy your product and then sit there and use it. But I mean, I agree, you know, those types of things. That'd be a great idea, you know, where people can sit and meet new people and enjoy cannabis together would be great. When I think about Europe, I think about the rich history. We got the Renaissance. We got all these great ideas. There's so many talented, incredible, fascinating people that see the world in such a unique way. I can see that happening on some level, whether it comes from the underground or whether it comes from some sort of festivals. Like, I think that you guys are going to be at the forefront. Whenever there's that much oppression, it's like that balloon. Like, you squeeze it, but then that bubble pops out. No matter where you squeeze it, something pops out. Like, I have high hopes for the EU and cannabis and rites of passage and maybe a new elusiveness emerging from over there. Yeah, I mean, definitely, yeah, it is the – The genie's out of the bottle as far as cannabis goes in Europe, and you're not going to be able to stuff it back in. People are definitely going to keep pushing for more liberalization of the laws. It's just a question of time and where and when and how fast is really the only question. As far as going back to complete prohibition, as some countries are threatening, that's right? Yeah. Nice. I just, it just creates a bigger underground. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. You know what? We got, uh, Dr. Sebastian, Martin Cole. Maybe we'll have him jump in here in a minute. He says he's currently building a workshop based on his book, the art of the high for members of social clubs in Germany. Uh, Sebastian, hang on, man. I'll try to say, I'll shoot you a link, man. I would love to have you jump in here and, uh, and, and shoot it with me. And, uh, And Dr. Andy here. So yeah, I'll try to shoot this guy a link real quick. But he's got, Dr. Sebastian's got some really cool ideas. The thesis that he wrote is phenomenal. He's got multiple books out there. And I think he might have some interesting things to add to the conversation here. But yeah, let's... Yeah, yeah, we're connected on LinkedIn too, yeah. Okay, have you guys met before? Have I introduced you guys before? I can't remember if we had a conversation or not. We were talking on LinkedIn. I can't recall if we actually were able to have a video or not now. All right. So let me just – I'm going to fire off this link right here. In the meantime, what – what? What, what have you been going to any sort of conventions? I know that, you know, it's the ability to travel around there is, is pretty awesome. And has there been some events that you have been to? And if so, what are people talking about right now in, in, in the heat of the moment over there? Yeah. I mean, there, there's a lot, I mean, almost every week, it seems like there's a canvas related event somewhere in Europe, um, and a lot in Germany and also in London. Um, but I don't go to all the smaller ones. just because of time-wise and travel time, you know, it ends up being just too much. But the three biggest ones are Spanibus in Barcelona, Mary Jane here in Berlin, and Cannafest down in Prague, which is coming up actually, you know, in about three weeks. And those have, each of those has over fifty thousand people, probably sixty, seventy thousand plus people attending over the course of three days. They're really big, more uh business to consumer events but you know for the canada jobs they're good for us because we need to be talking to companies but we also need to be reaching out to candidates potential candidates so they're really good for us because we get to uh spend time talking with both sides there um um and I mean really the main topic this whole year uh the last two years has really been all about what's going to happen in germany with legalization right uh we finally got the first legalization stuff happening earlier this year, but now when we get more, what's going to happen in Czech Republic, because they're really pushing that envelope too. So it ends up really just being all the conversations pretty much are around the legal status and what do people think is going to happen. Sometimes you get to meet people who have a little bit more inside knowledge, which is always interesting. But even that inside knowledge in the end, You can't always, when politics gets involved, all of a sudden, even those insider tips turn into nothing, you know? Because one or two politicians can torpedo something that looked like it had momentum, then all of a sudden it doesn't anymore, unfortunately. Yeah. I think it's the same here in the States. Like, we get to learn a lot from the people that have successful campaigns. We get to learn a lot about the people, you know, the goods, the pros, the cons, the good, the bad, and the ugly over there. Yeah. I think if, if history, if past relevant behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, does that make you optimistic for the legalization or the decrim or cannabis moving forward? Oh yeah. I'm very optimistic. I mean, you know, we've got, it's now legal in Germany. It just aren't recreational sales. I'm not, super optimistic that recreational sale is going to happen real soon but certainly it's still possible that it could happen within the next year or so um most people are saying it's not possible but legally it is because the legal foundation is there uh just the expectation is that the at the end of the year when germany has elections again that the conservatives will be back in power and they're anti-cannabis The law is already on the books. So cities and states that are more liberal-leaning can take the existing federal law and say, well, we're going to move forward with it because it's legal. So I think we might end up actually seeing more activity in the next year or two on that front than what people are expecting. But once again, it's politics, so you never know. But like I said, or like we were both talking about, it's too late to put the genie back in the bottle. It's moving in that direction. It's going to continue to move in that direction around the world. Nice. Sebastian, what's up? Thanks for joining us. I'm so stoked you're hanging out and listening, man. Thanks for being here, man. How are you? Yeah. Hey, Andy. Finally. We meet and virtually meet. That's the best we can do these days, right? Right. Yeah. Hi, George. Great to meet you again. I'm sorry. I didn't want to bash your meeting. I just wanted to write a comment. No, I'm still here. That's how George works. You know, you never know what's coming out of that. He's always good for lovely surprises. Well, I mean, for three of us to be on this in this anyway, it's just a different third person. Yeah, excellent. And representing the inner circle. Sebastian, you're an accomplished author. You're an accomplished writer. You're a philosopher. You and Dr. Andy have so many things in common. I know you've kind of been listening a little bit to the conversation. What's your take on the status of cannabis in the EU right now? Oh, you got me cold there because I think Andy knows much better about the whole of the EU because I was really knowledgeable about what was happening in the EU when I was still responsible for a company for the EU a few years ago. But now I don't. For instance, in England, I'm really not up to date because I heard there's a lot happening out there now, but I haven't quite followed. the other countries. So I'm focused now on Germany and because I'm trying to make my way here and it's an interesting development and to really, to just give you a short update on what's happening here with the social clubs, it seems like we now have the social club model that started, the law started in April this year and I was a bit skeptic about the social clubs coming online and getting their actual licenses, but it seems like a few ones have gotten their licenses now and they're operating. And one social club in Berlin just told me they are going to harvest soon in November. And I was like, well, let's see if they come through with all the testing, et cetera, because the whole model for social clubs is a bit difficult for them because they can't hire people for a lot of money. They can't really work with professionals. They have to grow basically themselves. They can't outsource that, et cetera. So we're all waiting to see what's happening with the social clubs. And I wish them luck, but it's tough for them now. But it seems like some of them are coming online. And I'm really enthusiastic about the whole social club thing. And of course, we can home grow here. But it seems that the model projects, as we call them, so the sale of cannabis for the responsible adult use, that will probably be delayed as far as I can see. That won't happen this year and probably not next. We'll see. So because that was basically the trick because of the international laws and the single narcotics convention law. You cannot really legalize cannabis for adult use, but the way they did it here in Germany was because it's only allowed for medical use or for scientific usage. And so what they, the model they are running here is that they say, we're going to run model projects. We're going to have places that sell and they don't exactly know which kind of places these are going to be, but they're saying they can sell to adults. And again, it's going to be like a few ten thousand hundred thousand people it's not clear yet I think how many people in how many cities would or could participate and then um you have a study that follows up and you know how these people do in terms of quality of life in terms of what driving etc etc for a few years to generate data so the whole thing is kind of set up as a as a scientific study which makes it like a scientific thing but basically it's about recreation what they call recreational use and I always say re-create right because to put that um put that back in the term because we always tend to think of recreational as something like, yeah, you know, it kind of makes you dazed and confused and happy. And I think, no, you can re-create, you can recreate yourself and cannabis in various ways that I've been talking about a lot so far from my rant. So, but not to take it to hours now of my research, but you know what I mean now. Yeah, I love it. So here's if we shift gears for a moment, like we've talked about some regulation, but both of you, I think, have a rich background in entrepreneurship. So I'm going to start off with Dr. Andy and I'm going to come back to you, Sebastian, is what like lessons from other industries? And like I said, you both have unique experiences, but. Are there experiences in outside sectors like craft beer, global business and leadership communities? And Dr. Annie, what insights can you take or can we take from some of these outside industries that we could bring into cannabis that might help get the ball rolling a little bit? Well, I mean, I think, you know, you mentioned craft beer and I think alcohol and tobacco, these other industries are highly regulated. I mean, people who are coming from those industries kind of have a leg up because they already understand somewhat how difficult it is, how long everything takes, how annoying and difficult applications and working with the government is when it's highly regulated. And yeah, especially the timelines, you know, I mean, think it won't take that long within six months later you've barely made any progress because you're going back and forth about the most ridiculous points you know details um so I think just that that highly regulated market is something that um people people with that experience at least they understand it um and I think that's one of those things that people need to understand who aren't from those types of industries is the kinds of timelines that we're talking about you know they're they are not what most entrepreneurs are used to um when you think oh you can build this and then you do that and then you do that and six months later there you are sitting there with your problem of canvas your first crop is like no it's going to take you a year to build a gacp facility it'll take you at least one year to build a gmp facility and probably a year to get a gmp facility actually certified and licensed you know and and A lot of people just don't understand these kind of timelines because when they look out on paper, like, oh, you should be able to do it this quick. And then they come and look and then you get a piece of paper. Yeah. So I think that's one of those. That's probably one of the biggest lessons is understanding the sheer difficulty of dealing or being in such a highly regulated market. Yeah, Sebastian, you as well. You have been in the cannabis game for a long time, and you've seen lots of different changes on there. Are there some strategies that you have seen implemented outside of cannabis that you're bringing in? I know that you have worked closely with seed companies and beverage companies, but what do you see as far as bringing something from the outside into the world of cannabis that may help make it evolve in a more efficient and effective way or an exciting way? I think your point with craft beer is an interesting one because basically when you look at cannabis, I see it as, you know, there are two worlds right now. We're trying, especially in Germany, we're trying to squeeze it into the pharmaceutical model. Of course, that doesn't work for various reasons. It doesn't kind of, you know, it's difficult and Andy is nodding. You know, for various reasons. But the other thing is if you look at cannabis and if you look also for purely medical applications, the pharmaceutical model is kind of doesn't work because it doesn't account of the fact that cannabis, we are talking about an entourage effect. or an ensemble effect or an orchestral effect or what I'm, I don't like entourage that much because it means that there's one thing THC, which is leading the way and the entourage doesn't really matter. So it's more like a synergistic effect of a lot of compounds in cannabis. And we know from, from a lot of patients that the, that they benefit a lot from having various varieties of cannabis with different chemo types, et cetera. But then if you look at, and I had in-depth experience with what are the SOPs, the standard operation procedures of big companies in the pharmaceutical realm, And they are really good at making sure that there is no E. coli in your plants and that there are no toxic substances like heavy metals, et cetera, et cetera. But if you look at how they harvest and how they do the post-harvesting, et cetera, and the terpenes, terpenoids, they don't even care, you know, in the pharmaceutical world, they care about CBD and THC and the rest is kind of like, yeah, you know, so, and you can see that the production doesn't work, whereas craft beer brewers or people from that world, they care about that and they know how much it's, how valuable that is. And if you look in the history of cannabis production, you know, in In places like India or in places like all kinds of places, you know, they all had their various treatments of the plant, you know, how they would bury it in sand or, you know, in Morocco, they would put the cannabis on in the blazing African sun and then other compounds come along. And so there is a whole art of crafting cannabis that we kind of lost, you know, in that process. And now we have the pharmaceutical process. But a lot of good things come from the pharmaceutical and from the new technologies, you know, of cannabis. growing plants that and because for instance if you vaporize cannabis and you don't have you know you are not rigid about really testing cannabis you know you can have like problems with aflatoxins and stuff like that so you want with mold issues so you can really damage your lungs so So you want to combine, and this is it, I think this is one of the most important things we need to think about, is we want a synergy of tradition and what's coming online now. We have to think about, we can't just go back to one industry or to one practice, or we can't just deny everything that's happening in pharma. You know, we have to look at what's out there. We're doing, this is how I did my research, interdisciplinary research. I tried to get a lot of knowledge also from people who used it on the recreational market or, you know, in subcultures from that kind of knowledge, but also from studies, endocannabinoid system, the medical world experience from pharmaceutical companies. studies, et cetera, and from evolutionary philosophy of myself. I try to integrate all that kind of knowledge. And I think we shouldn't be too romantic and go back and be like, yeah, back in the days it was all natural because nature has very powerful toxic components too, you know, and it's not all great only because it's natural. And but also we know that pharma has its big problems. You know, I basically agree with most of what Andy said before. So so I think we need to really think about how do we bring the best of each world together and come up with something. And it's going to be completely new. So you're asking really great questions. Where can we learn from? And I think we can learn from several industries. I mean, for instance, when it comes to bringing cannabinoids in a beverage or so, you have to think about how can we make CBD water soluble, et cetera. I have contact with people who are doing that. It's a really interesting process also, but yeah. But so I think we need to take it from a lot of sources and come up with something. And we got to be open to the idea that we need to come up with something completely new. And the regulations will lag behind. They need to be really intelligently done. And, you know, it's a complicated process. And we're seeing that in Germany, too. We made a step, but now where we stand it, now the regulations are a bit silly. But it's because you can only make so many steps with a population that is mostly against cannabis. So it's kind of hard in the whole political process with cannabis. with all those parties in there some of them are completely against and you just need to open doors with some regulations and then wherever you are nobody is really satisfied but that's the way that's the way we're going now yeah yeah it's you know with eu canna jobs andy like Maybe there's some real opportunity there. And Sebastian, this goes for you guys too. Like, are you guys aware of anybody like yourselves included? Is anybody reaching out to these big alcohol companies? Like, Hey, we've got a giant opportunity boys. Come on over here to shake some hands. Let's meet some people. Is there any interest in, Maybe the regulations are too stiff. Are you guys aware of any interest for like partnering with these big, you know, sometimes they're looking at it as the bad guys. But is there any interest in partnering with these big guys, whether it's pharma, whether it's the big alcohol or even tobacco on some level? Are you aware of any talks that are happening between cannabis and these guys? And is there a way to get a first foot in the door? I'm not sure at all. I worked for a company that was swallowed by big alcohol. Is there all bad guys? I mean, there's got to be some good guys in there that see this as an opportunity to change the society, to change the fuel we're running on, right? Or is it just all so money-oriented that it's not even worth it? Anyone wants to answer that. I don't think it's all bad. I think what we're seeing is you've seen a lot of people come from those industries into cannabis. And I mean, some of those people have, especially from pharma, have come into cannabis and done really good jobs being high up or running these bigger cannabis companies. So I think the individuals are not necessarily evil, but I think the companies as a whole tend to be, I hate to use the word evil, but just based on what you said, more on the evil side. Like Sebastian said, the company he worked for that got swallowed up. You know, it sounds like a beautiful process. You know, I think most of these big companies, because they have a lot of money when they come in, they're looking to make money. They're not looking to do good. They're looking to make money through their purchases or acquisitions and stuff. And so I think that's where you end up not having necessarily goodwill or having a good outcome. But I think the individuals, you know, I mean, everyone who works in another industry is an evil. It's not like it's inherently evil industry, but you have to be careful what the motivations are for these companies coming in. I'd like to add that, you know, sometimes making money is not not the problem. I mean, everybody wants to make a living. And if people do something meaningful and if they produce a good medication, you know, they should make money. They should make a living on that. They should be able to benefit from that. But and, you know, in pharma, I have seen that, of course. For instance, even if a company is only interested in making money, they probably start themselves, even though they don't have to. In the cannabis world, I've seen that start pharmacovigilance programs. So they look for, you know, what are the side effects? What can we get from our patients? Not because they care too much about patients, but because they want to make sure that they don't get too much negative feedback and that they inform the doctors how to treat patients, et cetera, so that they keep on making money. And so here, the motive of making money doesn't necessarily have to lead to something bad. But of course, in a neoliberal society and system where you're under conditions of competitions where And then the pressure is so brutal on many people. And I agree with you, Andy, a lot of people in those companies are good people. They want to do good things. But then under that pressure, they start having to do things that are that are horrible, basically, you know, that are really horrible because the regulations are not there. And so you have a lot of competition. And if you don't, if you don't comply with certain things they do, you know, if you don't go, you know, certain ways, then you just drown, you know, that's the problem in the pharmaceutical world. And so I'd like at this point to I'm not sure if I mentioned that. Did I mention Thomas Pogge to you? He's a German philosopher and he came up with a great model a few years ago because he said basically his idea was that in the pharmaceutical world, if everybody runs on the paradigm of creating IP, intellectual property and patent patents. But most companies then have to look for, they don't look for generating cheap medicine for like millions out there because if you sell medicine in India and you're not making money on like ten million people who can't hardly afford anything, then you're not looking for something to cure right you know something very mundane in india but you're looking for the golden ages and and you look for immune suppressant for the golden ages in america because they want to go golfing so so this is what I'm talking about these are the the financial pressures that companies there and of course you can go to the pharmaceutical company and say hey come on do something meaningful and they will tell you yeah I can do that but then I'm going to drop my I'm going to go bankrupt if I do that you know Because the system kind of – it's built in the system that I have to do something that generates as much money so that I can maintain the whole structure and do the whole expensive testing, et cetera. So Thomas Pogge and I – I'm not going to go into that. That's going to lead too far. But he – started to think about a system, how we could do a paradigm change in the pharmaceutical world. But having said that, you know, I think that a lot of people are stuck in a system, not only in the pharmaceutical world, but in all kinds of areas. And we need to, at some point, we're seeing, I think, in the world generally, that we come to a point where we need to just flip. We need to get out. We need to get out of the system. We can't improve it here and there a little bit. Well, this brings up what Andy and I were talking about earlier, and this question might be well-suited to you. And feel free to jump in, Andy, if I get this question wrong or you have something to add to it. But are we seeing right now, Sebastian, a giant rite of passage? We were talking about boomers, end of life, and how psychedelics and cannabis can be something that could be a rich target audience for pharmaceutical companies. You know, this This idea of an awakening awareness at the end of life. As a philosopher, is that kind of what's happening? This system is collapsing. We have this giant age of baby boomers moving on the mortality experience. Everything is shifting on some level. Is that too broad of a question? Can that be what's happening right now? Are we seeing these new ideas finally being brought to the forefront because the generation is dying? I'll try to make it short because I don't want to hijack Andy's conversation. But yeah, I think you point to something really important and I've been writing about that lately. I really do think that people are now looking, that we have a pressure for people to change their minds with all the problems we now have in the world, and that radically and quickly. And of course, psychedelic substances and cannabis and other substances like ketamine or whatever won't be classified as psychedelic, but it's still mind altering. and psychoactive, and also meditation techniques and other techniques. I think there's a huge potential there. And we as a society need to think about how to better use that potential, of course. And of course, there are risks there too. So we need to look up to those people who know how to deal with those substances. And again, we need to integrate and uh get conversations between scientists of the old world old school science so to say or the pharmaceutical world and of shamans and others and we need to actually bring a lot of people together to find how we can use those substances because I think the the good old Timothy Leary tune in and drop out and just the idea of, you know, you, you just give the population like a million LSD trips and everything's going to be fine. It's I don't think it's going to work. You know, it needs to be embedded in sensitive and intelligent regulations and And we need to have a lot of education to steer the process. But it is a thing of absolute necessity. And I think it's the right time to do it now. Yeah. What do you think, Andy? What's your take? Yeah, I mean, I agree. Basically, I think the society as a whole is looking to change, like we talked about earlier. And psychedelics can definitely be a big part of that. And that's why in the US and here in Europe, you're seeing all this experimentation with psychedelics for different mental health problems. And I think you're going to see more and more studies being done and more and more people trying to adopt or figure out how to adopt these substances for the benefit, for the medical benefit of many people. That brings up an interesting question too, Andy. I know in the last go-around, cannabis and psychedelics, at some point in time, it seems to me, and I don't know for sure, but it seems to me that the medical container became... these particular substances were forced back, they tried to put the genie back in the bottle, and they did that by seeing people like Art Linkletter's daughter jump out a window, and there was all this sort of hubbub about, and there's all this power that went into demonizing these substances. Do you think, Andy, like that is something that could happen again, especially where you're sitting, where you're seeing like on the cusp of Decrim, these social clubs kind of popping up. Do you think that there could be some events that get shined a light on that try to force this thing back into the shadows? I think people are already trying to, but I don't think it's going to work this time. And I think there's too much information out there that's readily available to people. You know, I mean, when they first did the war on drugs, you know, now we know that it was done by the U.S. government and it was basically a racist policy, you know. And, you know, people then, they just believed the propaganda that the government threw out there. People nowadays, they have other ways to look up this propaganda and say that's BS. So I don't think that same technique of we're just going to do prohibition and tell a bunch of lies and that's not going to work again. And, yeah, there's just too much knowledge and too many people who are not going to accept that. Yeah. Sebastian, what do you think? What do you think? I wish I could share your optimism, Andy. You are right in a way, because I think the, there is a lot of knowledge and it's a lot easier now for most of us to just get to knowledge, but, and to, to look at, to Google or AI something and put in there and get the sources better. But yeah, if you see the developments in China and Russia and other places where they kind of, we always thought like a few years ago, everybody thought, okay, the global connection with the internet, everybody will have access, et cetera, but now they're shutting off and, you know, they're creating their own systems and they're going into propaganda. We also have in social media, the problems that we have with people building their hype bubbles and with controlling message. I mean, I'm a victim of shadow banning. I've been a victim for for twenty years now. Otherwise, I think I could have sold a few books more because, you know, It's not only shadow batting, but it's also because of the stigma, because people don't want to share. And of course, that concerns you too, George. I mean, the one thing is that you are kind of banned and you're not featured on platforms or, you know. that you have that kind of shadow batting. The other thing is that people on LinkedIn or so in your bubble, they share you, but they wouldn't share it outside of your bubble. So anyway, but I, I think, um, Andy is right in a way, but I, I think there's a, there's a long fight ahead of us, you know, in that world too, uh, for democracy and for making sure that the message goes out because now we are, um, we are in the age of noise. Hmm. And those who control what's coming through are powerful people with interests. And they're not necessarily the interests we have. Yeah, it's it's interesting. I had a conversation with my friend Benedict, who is a psilocybin facilitator in Jamaica. She's been doing it for a really long time. And in our conversation, she had told me, you know, George, it's interesting to see the explosion of certifications out there, especially in the US for these different types of coursework or micro dosing or all like that. Like it's just exploded on some level. And I'm like, she's telling me that I'm like, here we go. here we go. You know, once it gets so big, you can't help but have like a, a Jim Jones or something like that. Or, and like, just look at what happened with maps and Lycos. You know, I'm not saying I'm not putting any blame on anybody there, but like that sort of seems to me to be a flavor that's beginning to erupt out there. And like, it, it just seems like that is what's coming on the horizon. When you have this explosion, this huge expansion, you can't help but have some, some bad apples out there. And I think that those, those bad apples may be what sucks all the oxygen in. And then people see that. And then it goes, okay, we're, we're clearly not ready for this. Let's try to put this thing back. Is that, is that kind of the road you've been going down to Sebastian thinking about? Yeah, you see it here in Germany also with a lot of players on the cannabis market that are dancing around the... uh, the laws we have for advertising, the advertising laws. And so now a lot of patients in Germany and I'm, I really know them, um, know a lot of patients here. They are afraid and representatives of patients associations. Uh, they're afraid that, you know, they're going to suffer and they are already suffering like they did in the States and a lot of, um, in a lot of states where they legalize cannabis for recreational use, and suddenly the medical cannabis patients don't get their varieties anymore, et cetera, et cetera. And here we have a similar problem, and we have really bad apples in the medical cannabis industry who are trying to sell cannabis, who are actually advertising to people who are not patients to get online and get a... get a prescription from a doctor online, you know, for, you know, with no real check checking, et cetera, for telemedicine stuff. So, so yeah, we're, we're seeing that. And that's what I meant before when I said sensible regulations, it's kind of difficult as a politician also to build regulations that prevent that because you have, you You know, the cannabis market, there are so many people who know that this is a big market. They want to come online. And there are a lot of criminals entering the market. Those who come from a criminal-minded, from... Some of them are great. Some of them had a good ideal and they were like, hey, it's illegal, but I have to grow it for my own medicine or so. Some of them were just like, no, yeah, it's illegal, but I put pesticides on it and sell it to kids. What's the problem? I give a shit. So you have those people too, then you'll have criminals from a more modern background where they just have no ethics at all. They just want to make money and they don't give a shit about if patients benefit from it or not or where that's going and they don't care about... uh, laws or morals, you know, they make their money, they're in and out. And, and, you know, they got, they get busted for a hundred times. They find for like a hundred thousand, they make two million. So they give, they're like, yeah, that's a good equation for me, you know? So, and then, um, and then of course the politicians take a look and the population takes a look and they say, yeah, see, you know, you, you kind of take steps towards legalization and then that happens, you know? so there is there's uh in germany a lot of people are afraid that this is going to go backwards because we know that our next government is going to be more conservative yeah that's what dr andy was talking about a moment ago like you know can the can the law already be on the books or I guess that kind of speaks to the social I'm sorry good oh I wouldn't say anything but I mean yeah I mean I'm less concerned than Sebastian that things are going to necessarily go backwards. Sure, I mean, around the world, you've got more far right, more conservative governments coming in. But that's part of the typical pendulum swing of politics in society anyway. You know, you'll go a little bit liberal, then you'll get a little bit more conservative. But generally, it still marches forward in a liberal direction. Maybe not in a place like Russia or China where you've got absolute control, but most societies are still progressing forward. And I think cannabis falls under that, just like racism and other LGBT rights and things like that. Certain things or education, availability, health care, different things like that, I think tends to progress relatively linear towards better good. You have the swings back and forth. And in the far right or the conservatives are also not going to be able to stop that. I think in the long run, you'll have your setbacks, you know, but overall still going to be in a progressive manner forward. Well, two comments on that. Just one for Germany. Yeah, I don't think that the conservatives are going to stop that. They're now shouting loudly again for prohibition. They're like advertising for prohibition. But I just talked to political people who really know. And they said, no, they're not going to go backwards. Maybe they're going to torpedo it. they're not going to go backwards in that. I just wanted to give you the perspective of my good friend and mentor, the late Lester Greenspoon, who I worked with for a long time. And he said, and you reminded me that in the seventies in the States there in the U S there were a lot of, a lot of States who had already kind of decriminalized cannabis to a large degree, you know, And he told me that his friend Carl Sagan told him when he read his manuscript of his magnificent book, Marijuana Reconsider, of Lesser's book that came out in the nineteen seventies, Carl read the manuscript and said, hey, you say that the legalization will come within, I think, ten years or so. And he said, that's very pessimistic, you know. And that's the only thing where I really strongly disagree that's going to happen soon. Because, I mean, it's, you know, it must happen. Look at what happens out there. And last year talking to me, it was like, and he said, look where we are now, four years later. And that was like ten years ago now where, you know, everything was still... strongly prohibited. So, so yeah, um, I'm, I'm optimistic as you are, Andy. I just want to remind people and make sure that they, in the process, they don't take it as a given because I think that's the biggest, the biggest problem we have that people are like, and the younger generations are like, yeah, you know, it's a given that we have LBGTQ rights and that we have, uh, those civil rights and, um, you know, that, uh, uh we have equality and etc etc and I think we we need to be aware that it's it's going to be a fight right now and we're going to have to take it up again uh more than more than we have to be invested in that more than most of us have been before I mean I do agree yeah I mean I think it's sorry but I just want to say I think it's very important that people that's a very good point you know these rights even though they progress forward they don't progress forward on their own it's just people If you stop fighting and stop standing up for it, it will go away. Yes. You know, I can't help but sort of think about What would a contagious counterculture movement look like at this point in time? Maybe a couple of seasoned guys here thinking about how the world could be better. Maybe part of our responsibility should be creating a contagious philosophy that could sort of permeate the next generation. You know, when we start looking around the world and seeing the you know, the for me in the US, I see these explosions of the unconsciousness happening on college campuses, this sort of, you know, revisiting. We've already brought up Leary and like like on some level, isn't the past knocking on our door and saying, hey, guys. Where are the Dayglo school buses? Guys, where are the new bands? Maybe that's what we should be doing. And I think both of you on some level have already created a sort of large group of information and work that can help inform the next generation. But do you guys see that on the horizon? Maybe that's what we should be talking about. Maybe we should be having conversations that influence the next generation of radicals. Yeah, but the thing is, the next generation doesn't want to listen to us. That's just it. I mean, they might take some of the information that our generation has created, but they're not going to listen to us. I mean, that's the whole point of counterculture, contagious counterculture type thing is they got to come up with Well, the counterculture in the seventies and sixties, they listened to some people who were older, to like Aldous Huxley and people. So, yeah, you're right. They will have to come up with their own ideas, but I think we can still... infuse some ideas and knowledge. And I agree with you, George, I think it's the one of the most important questions for the whole world of people who are into psychedelics and meditation techniques, mind altering techniques, etc, to think about how Can we build in the existing societal structures we have? How can we build organizations, networks? How can we infuse something in the system so that we come up with, and I think one of the most important things is to come up with an imaginative, long look at what's coming and to build futures, you know, Because we have AI systems, we're going to have robots soon, and we're going to live in a society that's built on our imagination more than anything else. And if our imagination is impoverished, then maybe psychedelic substances and cannabis can help. That's what I've been writing about a lot. But it is about building structures, and it's about showing and leading the way in creativity too. to build those structures and networks to go ahead. But I think it's not one thing. It's not like one festival or one scientific organization. It's through our society. It's going to be all kinds of things. Think tanks, foundations, the medical cannabis, whatever, therapeutical, uh things you have out there in the medical world for psychedelics and other substances and it's gonna come from all sides and and we're seeing it happening but I think like like you do it's kind of still too disconnected, and we still need to have bigger ideas of how to move along. But I see it happening. I see a foundation here in Germany, the MIND Foundation by Henrik Jungauwele, a great organization, and other organizations are coming online that are working on that future. Andy, you can a job like you have this incredible platform where you can connect people that are, you know, sort of building the next level of cannabis. What positions are in most demand over there? Like if you could just reach across the reach across the aisle and grab anybody you wanted, are you looking for engineers? Are you looking for sort of, um, like who are the people that you're really looking for over there? Yeah. I mean, it really kind of mirrors other industries, you know, uh, The number one would be sales. Number two would be marketing. And then you've got IT. Of course, you've got everything else too, but those are the three biggest kind of areas. It makes sense. You know, I mean, if you're not selling, you're selling whatever you're producing, that's not a point in your business. And to be able to sell it, you got to market it. And in the end, you need IT to make anything happen nowadays. So it kind of makes sense that those are the big ones. But of course, you've got some cultivation things, you know, position, and then you've got your, A lot of QA and logistics, which are very specific needs for cannabis. So the highly regulated nature of it also kind of drives some of it too. But it's really an extremely diverse kind of portfolio of jobs that people are trying to get filled. Yeah, it's interesting. I'm sorry. I have to, I have to jump. My kids are banging on the door and they want to have. Thanks for jumping in. Lovely to meet you. Hope to talk to you soon. Have a good one. I'll talk to you soon. Have a beautiful day. Okay. Bye Andy. Good evening. That's so awesome. Thanks, Sebastian, for jumping in. And thank you, Dr. Andy, for having more tense into the voice, man. It's such a cool, unique experience when that happens. And I don't really believe in coincidences. I think it's a good way to have the conversation continue to move forward, man. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's cool to see. I hope that anybody within the sound of our voice, or Mark it is, or anybody that you need to jump on at EU Canada is listening to our voice and can do it. I think that would be a cool thing for people to do. I would love to continue to see. How are you doing on time? Are you okay on time? Or you got something coming up? I should get going in a minute, too. I have another meeting coming up, too. Me, too. But, I mean. So much fun, though, man. Last time we talked forever, too. I love it. It's so... The conversation is so fun when we sit down and we just get going and we have other people join. And I think that's a... It was awesome. Thank you very much for all your time today, all your insights to everybody within the sound of my voice. Go down to the show notes, check out Andy's site, check out Rick Papa over there, go to EU Canada jobs and take a look at what's happening in the market over there. Especially if you're someone that is skilled in cannabis, maybe the opportunity is lying across the pond over there. So, but before I let you go, Andy, where can people find you? What do you got coming up and what are you excited about? Yeah. I mean, best place to probably follow us is on LinkedIn and then also our website, EU Canada jobs.com. um but on linkedin you know they can also then interact with us on our posts and um you know that way have more or less direct conversations with us they can also then email us uh either through uh you know send us direct messages on linkedin or email us through our website I'm happy to chat with people if people are looking at coming across the pond over here there definitely are opportunities um a lot easier than people think actually of course there's bureaucracy and all that crap but but in the end uh plenty of people have done it um and with all the political turmoil in the u.s it's not a bad time to get out regardless of if you're a democrat or republic it's it's nasty it's nasty right there right now so you know uh not a bad time to check out another part of the world for a while but um yeah I mean thank you very much for having me one again george and and uh looking forward to our next conversation Yeah, absolutely. Let's have more of them. This is really fun. And hang on just briefly afterwards, but to everybody else, I hope you have a beautiful day out there. That's all we got. Aloha.