Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back. I hope you're enjoying this beautiful Friday morning. I've got a great guest for you today that I think everyone's going to enjoy. So welcome to the show where today's guest will not only expand your mind, but also guide it through the labyrinth of healthcare innovation. and the transformative power of psychedelics. Jessica Tracy is a trailblazer in the realm of mental health, advocacy, and psychedelic integration. As the founder and CEO of the Sage Collective, she's on a mission to bring the extraordinary potential of psychedelic-assisted therapies and mindfulness practices into the very fabric of our healthcare system. Think of her as the bridge builder between ancient wisdom and modern medicine, a Sherpa guiding us up the mountain of transformation, one insurance policy at a time. Jessica's journey is as multifaceted as a kaleidoscope with nearly twenty years of experience spanning group insurance, clinical genetics, health tech, and psychedelic therapies. She's been the strategist behind innovative healthcare delivery models that make the inaccessible accessible. From underwriting and analytics to helping health systems build centers for psychedelic healing, she's proving that even the healthcare industry shadow side can find its way into the light. Her work with the Ketamine Task Force and various clinical certifications in psychedelic therapies speaks volumes about her commitment to bringing these life-changing modalities to those who need them most. Jessica isn't just advocating for change. She's orchestrating it, weaving mindfulness and psychedelics in the fabric of insurance and healthcare. Jessica, thank you so much for being here today. How are you? Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. And thank you for the amazing introduction. I really appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it rings true. I see you have been on this whirlwind tour of trying to make change and sort of bring about a new awareness to the world of healthcare. And I want to pay homage to that and say thanks for that. And hence the introduction. But how are things going for you? What's new lately? I heard you just got back from a trip recently. Yeah. Yes, I went to Greece, which was incredible. And I actually went there for my work that I do in the Jungian coaching realm. So I, we had a Jungian coaching retreat where Jungian coaches from all over the world. gathered together about forty five minutes north of Athens and we got together to do our work in person. You know, a lot of times now we're doing work virtually. So it was really nice to be able to do our work in person and just learn from each other and just just seeing the transformation that happened in three days was really, really incredible. What an amazing adventure it sounds like. And then to sort of be immersed in, you know, immersed among your peers and figuring out some things. It just sounds like a fascinating time. I actually have a couple questions regarding the Jungian approach. I thought I'd just start off with one right here. It's pretty interesting. Let me look it up here. Carl Jung believed that one does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. How do you see this reflected in the psychedelic experience? Oh yeah. So it's really interesting. You know, I do, I do integration work, um, through Jungian practices after people have a psychedelic experience, because ultimately when we, when we have a psychedelic experience, we're going into our unconscious as well as the collective unconscious, and we're gathering a wealth of material and we're given so much knowledge and, you know, our unconscious doesn't necessarily speak to us, you know, in, in words, you know, as true communication, but What it does do is it gives us symbols, images, and that's how it communicates with us. So we may go into a psychedelic experience and have these symbols and these images that may not really make a lot of sense to us. So when we come out, there's this whole integration process that we have to do. And using Jungian practices to help people understand and kind of talk with their unconscious to understand what those symbols were trying to tell them, what insights they were trying to give them. It's a really interesting experience to go through. And when I do this Jungian coaching work, ultimately what we are doing is we are using tools to guide people into their psyche. into their own unconscious. So that way they can tap into the wisdom that's already within, you know, the wisdom from their higher self, their most authentic self, because we have so many layers that prevent us from really accessing that information and Like I said, because it comes through in symbols, images, dreams as well, it can be very confusing to make sense of all of that. So it's a really beautiful process of guiding someone into their unconscious, just like psychedelic medicine does, to gather the information that is needed for you to gain the wisdom and the insights that are ultimately for you based on the intention that you set. That's so well said. It's such an interesting thought process to think that psychedelics may be in fact this bridge to the collective unconscious on some level. Is that part of what you think? Is it possible that they could be a bridge to the collective unconscious? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it absolutely is. We all have access to the collective unconscious. And I think that many people unknowingly feel that. When something challenging is happening across the world or within the country, everybody feels it. So you can hear that people may feel a little bit heavier during this time. And that's because we are all very deeply connected, so we can feel others' pain. And that's the whole purpose of everyone really working on themselves, because the more work that we can do on ourselves to better ourselves and lift our vibration, get into a better state, that ultimately does help the collective unconscious. the more work that we do on ourselves to better ourselves and heal, that ends up helping others at the same time. I love it. I can't help but begin thinking about the way you're using your language. You choose your words very wisely. And I'm curious to just move this conversation in the aspect of language because it fascinates me. And I'm curious to get your thoughts. Do you think that psychedelics help us formulate a better language pattern like that that seems synonymous with healing to me finding a way to put our language in a way that is helpful and that's whether that's touching the collective unconscious or understanding symbols in a different way but what what do you think about language and psychedelics and and healing Yeah, it's a really great point. So the English, the English language is very limited. And I, I personally find that, you know, I even have a hard time, uh, explaining some of like the vastness that I feel or like, you know, to communicate because, um, you know, I, I very much, um, and kind of intuitively connected through kind of sensing and feeling and understanding emotions. And that can be hard to communicate with the words that we have. Other languages like Sanskrit, for example, they have so many more words that explain love or just one specific thing. So our language, yes, is very limited. And I do believe though that psychedelics do help they help us to better explain maybe more of these complex ideas. And I know for me, I tend to find a lot of maybe through these experiences, I'm able to kind of get downloads almost of like a way that I could portray this image that I see in my head or, you know, kind of this feeling or this kind of like broader awareness that I have, this broader perspective that I have on something that may be very complex. But I do find that, yes, through these experiences and through my integration afterwards, that I'm oftentimes I'm kind of given the words to be able to better explain something. In my terms, I try to explain things in a more simple way because I think that's better to really connect to people. You know, it's it reminds me of the medieval mystics. And we have our friend. You and I were just talking about Dr. David A. Solomon. And here he is in the podcast talking about much of this experience is ineffable. So here's his question for you, Jessica Tracy. He says, I'm curious if these experiences also can be conveyed through other modes, music, music. I see the harp behind. Of course you see that harp, Dr. David Sullivan. Of course you do. Jessica, what do you think? He's curious if these experiences can also be conveyed through other modes like music. Oh yeah, absolutely. So music can also take you on a journey and I, I use a psychedelic journey, right. But you know, without the plant medicine, absolutely. So, um, you know, if you look at, uh, the shaman drum or the frame drum, for example, that's the drum that cultures all over the world, you know, as far as we, as far as we know and can, can see back have been using that drum to take people on guided journeys. So using that drum and using certain rhythms, you know, rhythms of the heartbeat, it can guide people into, you know, an altered state of consciousness and help them to go in and do this deep healing work and also kind of get wisdom, get insights from, you know, your higher self as well. So absolutely. So the shaman drum, also the djembe drum is also another one that you know my partner and I play this and when we play you know with depending on some of the rhythms that you play you can bring yourself into a trance state and when you're in that trance state that's ultimately what helps do some of that healing work uh you know work on the nervous system and also it kind of helps you get into a very meditative state because it helps to kind of clear the mind of thoughts the rumination that ultimately is kind of what blocks us from getting into those those deeper more altered states of consciousness And with the harp as well, yeah, I mean, any type of music and sound can absolutely guide you into one of these altered states of consciousness and these deeper experiences within yourself. Yeah, it's really well said. I almost feel like you need music on some level to underscore a meaningful conversation. It almost could be part of it. You know what I mean? If we're engaging all of the senses, it seems to me we're learning in a way that's more effective and efficient. maybe even some nice smells that come in there. But like, yeah, I think it can be expressed through different modalities. He says, Dr. Solomon says, yes, shamanic drumming, also Buddhist chanting, Gregorian chant, even the mystical music of someone like Hildegard von Bingham. I love this guy. We'll have to get you guys together on a show together. He's one of the, probably, in my opinion, the greatest scholar on medieval mysticism. He starts bringing up Julian of Norwich and all these incredible people. You would love him. And Dr. Solomon, just so you know, she just got back from a Jungian retreat. She's going to be contacting you, my friend. She's got some questions, so be ready for that. So... What else is he saying here? This one is for you too, Jessica, he says. And the harp particularly is so much about vibration, which you mentioned earlier. What is your relationship with that, Jessica? Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, there's a lot of... I think people within my community that do believe that frequency vibration is medicine. And I believe that as well. My, my dog was just sick the past week and, you know, he, he, we didn't know the results weren't looking very good. And you know, every day I played harp over him and you could tell afterwards, like the pain. that he was experiencing was subsiding and he was calmer and you know he just wanted to relax and lay there and he wasn't like whimpering anymore so absolutely I mean music frequency vibration it is all healing it's medicine uh you know I think that we we have been taught to look externally for medicine and sometimes it's necessary, right? You know, I think we're all grateful for the Western medicine that we do have that is necessary, but there are many times where we feel as though we need to look externally for that healing when much of that work can actually be done within ourselves. And, you know, there is a lot of power in meditation, in affirmations, in frequency, in vibration, in music, in changing your thoughts. Changing your thought processes and what you're thinking is really, really important to help shift that. Your body, your cells, they're always listening and our body is water. And when you're putting kind of sound and frequency into water, that also kind of has a ripple effect throughout the body. So yeah, that's getting a little deep, but there's a lot to this. So I would definitely explore that further for sure. Yeah, it's exciting to me. I feel like we are sort of reimagining what health care can be. We are sort of really starting to look into these other modalities that have been used for centuries. And you may not see it a lot in the textbooks of modern day science, but you do see it in the scriptures and the texts of the traditional traditional wisdom I guess on some of them we got christian gray amazing philanthropist incredible individual super fun guy to be around he says there is a great signal channel that focuses the role of music during psychedelic journeys it is there's a lot of I've spoken to some sound healers that are really using sound as sort of another modality in conjunction with psychedelics much like you were talking about earlier, to really help people go that extra mile and integrate. Can you tell us a story about, do you have a particular experience, Jessica, where you've used sound to really help someone break through different arenas or different mindsets or different products? Yeah, absolutely. you know, there's kind of like a flow that can be really helpful in helping people to get to some like very deeply rooted trauma. So, you know, working with different instruments like shakers and like rattles that can really kind of stir up some of the stuff that's very deeply rooted that maybe we are having a harder time accessing or may not be as readily available because of all of the kind of like protective layers that we've built. um you know our conscious reality so things like rattles shakers um drums that can really get into you know those areas where some of these things are tucked away and can kind of bring them to light and you know to your point earlier with the carl jung quote you know that's the whole point is to bring the shadows to bring the darkness into light into conscious reality, because once we're aware of it, that's when we can do the work and help to process those traumas, integrate those experiences. And ultimately, the whole goal is to really harmonize, to balance the light and the dark, to bring the shadows to light. The shadows oftentimes have really incredible insights to share with us. They just do them in maybe a, you know, a not so pleasant way until they're heard. Oftentimes it just, it's, they have to be heard. And once the shadow is seen, then it almost softens. And it's like, in a way it wants to kind of collaborate with you and actually give you guidance. It just, sometimes I believe it has to be so scary or so loud or so, you know, maybe not like you, not like you were hiding. in order to be seen. So sometimes I think that it acts that way because if it was just, you know, nice and kind of quiet and friendly, then we're like, yeah, we're fine. You know, I don't need to hear you right now. So it's like it wants to be seen because it wants to integrate. It wants to harmonize. It wants to give us information. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, it's... Sometimes I think of guilt and shame as like the threshold guardians. What role do you think shame and guilt play in the idea of the shadow? Are they just like the painted masks and rattles? Like, hey, look at me. Trying to get your attention. I think guilt and shame is what can prevent it from coming to light and what can prevent you from being okay with working on it. Guilt and shame are really challenging feelings. And, you know, I think that's part of what's in our shadows. It's not only traumas, you know, in these kind of, suppressed aspects of ourselves and these are aspects that we feel embarrassed by shamed by guilty of um you know and they may not even be ours they may be um you know the shadows of the collective unconscious right you know we yeah a lot of people that I talk to they think you know what they're experiencing and what they're what they're you know going to share is is so um abnormal or strange, but oftentimes like the collective unconscious is a very real thing because people are struggling on very similar things, but they're unique to them, to their experiences. Uh, so yeah, I think guilt and shame are really, you know, they're, They're challenging feelings because they can prevent us from being able to bring that shadow to the conscious reality to be integrated and to be worked on. So they're challenging. But I would say to anyone that's experiencing that, you're definitely not alone. And in your own experience that you're struggling with too, you're very likely not alone. And, you know, I think that's like the real importance of being vulnerable and sharing this, you know, sharing your own story, because I think it helps people to know that they are not alone and that other people are kind of experiencing the same things. And there is a lot of healing in community and in being vulnerable with each other. Yeah, it brings up this idea of generational trauma, which Dr. Solomon says here. He says trauma is definitely part of the collective unconscious. I carry the trauma of the Jews from centuries past with me, although I never experienced it personally, whether it's from a hundred years ago or whether it's from your parents or from your ancestors. your, your aunt, grandma, Joyce, you know, whatever, whoever it's from, like you can really have these shadows that get passed down to you. Is that, do you think that that's something that we carry is sort of the sins of the father or the shadows of the past that if our parents don't work something out, then we're forced to work them out? Yes, absolutely. I do. Yes. Because, you know, if they're, you know, There is, you know, there's the nature and nurture, right? Some stuff we genetically get, and sometimes we're going to pick up on things because of the environments that we're in. And, you know, all of the, you know, our ancestors before us did the absolute best that they can. So, you know, you have to only have compassion for them because they did the best that they possibly could. But the reality of it is no matter how great of a parent you are, you're going to pass something on very likely. So we do absolutely carry these experiences. They get stored in our DNA and they get expressed through our bodies. Absolutely. We do carry them. And I did read something where it does show, though, that like whatever work that you do on yourself and these breakthroughs that you're able to have, you want to heal them for yourself. you heal them for your ancestors and your lineage. But I also saw really interesting information that said that it also then makes it easier for your family members that are still around to be able to do the work on themselves with that particular challenge. it's almost like because you're doing that work and softening some of it it ripples out to your immediate family your loved ones that may be also struggling with that same thing and helps to kind of almost like move uh move it for them slightly so it allows them to be able to to go through their process as well and sometimes a bit more gently so I don't know if that's definitely true but I found that really interesting Yeah, I get goosebumps when you said it. Like, I think that there's a real message there. I think it's on some level, it speaks to this idea of forgiveness. If you're willing to forgive maybe the people in your life that have harmed you, be it physical or mental, maybe you allow them to begin forgiving themselves. You know, like that's a ripple outwards that benefits everybody, right? Now you're talking about epigenetics and changing the environment. It's amazing to me. Yeah, forgiveness is a big one. You know, it's like, you know, forgiveness is, is really important because, you know, not only you're ultimately suffering, you know, by, by not forgiving and by holding those feelings inside of you, you're the one that is ultimately experiencing that pain. Um, and yeah, so, so that's definitely one that can be a block and it's really important to, um, to do some work around. I know from my own experience, you know, when I worked on forgiveness, it just, it was like, when I kind of was able to work through that, it just was such a weight off my shoulder and it just felt so much more expansive. And I think to do that, you know, it's this concept of compassion is really important. Because people do the best that they can based on their own experiences, based on their own environments, based on their traumas, whatever they're going through. And the best way to try to work with forgiveness is to have compassion and understanding while also having the utmost compassion for yourself and your experience and what you went through as well. That's really important. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. It kind of upsets me that maybe science hasn't figured out a way to measure this. You know what I mean? Because it seems like we need science to be able to measure these things in order for us to get that into the healthcare system. All of these things we're talking about, I know mental wellness is not really new to healthcare systems, but it's kind of new. How do we get these ideas in front of the people that not only make decisions but can implement them? Or how do we help them implement them? Yeah, you know, it's a great point. I mean, if you think of something like loneliness is a good example. So that hadn't really been looked at prior, but now there's so many studies on loneliness. Right. how much it can negatively impact your mental health. And it makes sense, right? We, when we, you know, long, long time ago, we all operated as tribes, right? Tribes and community. So now I think this kind of concept of like, you know, kind of very individualistic society and really just having to focus on yourself and your family. I think it's kind of pulled us more and more away from community. And that aspect of community, I think, is what people really do need and are really kind of lacking in this day and age. And we think, we feel like we're connected because we're constantly seeing what people are doing and maybe connecting virtually, but it's just not the same. um so you know I'm grateful to see studies like that done on um you know on loneliness but you're right we do need to look at uh at things like forgiveness and you know other different uh other different types of emotions or feelings that may be uh blockages for us to be able to be better versions of ourselves or be more true versions of ourselves I should say Yeah. Yeah, it's like Dr. Solomon says, George, everything isn't quantifiable. Man, I get that. I know. Maybe it is. Maybe we just don't have the tools to do it. Like if we were to look at heartbreak, like instead of gross domestic product, we look at gross domestic heartbreak. We would see a huge swath of the country, whatever color you want to signify it as. I think we're failing to connect. Like you said, we no longer have the felt presence of the other. We have this simulation. We have this idea. And we can connect on some level, but... It's heartbreaking to not be around people that really care about you, especially when you start talking about people who spend the majority of their day in the workplace and they become a number. They're looked at as your employee. Oh, one seven one six six seven. You know, I don't care about your family. I don't care about your kids. I care about your productivity. And that's it. That's what you're here to do. Do your job and shut up. Like, I think there's a large part of the world that works that way. And I think that leads to a lot of the crisis that we're in, whether it's loneliness, whether it is. you know, failed marriages, failed parenting, you know, it just leads to so much distress. Is that, is that too crazy to think about? Or am I just ranting like a crazy guy right now? I don't, I don't think so. I think, I think it's very true. I think that People are in work for long periods of their time and large portions of their lives. And it's necessary to feel valued. It's necessary to also feel like you are contributing in a very meaningful way. And I think for it to be in a meaningful way, you know, it does have to kind of come from your heart and kind of come through you and I think in some of the ways that these really massive organizations operate, to your point, when they do look at people as just like a number or a piece of a financial model, then a lot of that gets lost. And work could potentially be a really helpful community for individuals. But I think that oftentimes it's actually a detrimental place that can cause a lot of the mental health conditions that they're struggling with, like anxiety, like depression. So I think that it is really important. And I know, I know people in, you know, HR and wellness, you know, that's their goal is to try to create this community, but it's also hard, you know, the best mechanisms to do that. And especially because everyone is so different. So, you know, I'm, I, uh, kudos to everyone that is trying to focus on building community within the workplace because it's necessary. And, you know, I always think about, you have to just bring some of this like non-traditional stuff in there, you know, like, yeah. my partner and I do drum circles. So pulling things like drum circles into the workplace where you can like connect and kind of have that experience with each other. And also to just do something fun together. You know, I think that's really important too. And, you know, employers try to do that, you know, with health fairs and different days they have. So yeah, keep doing more of that. But all of that stuff is so important. Again, people need to feel fulfilled. They need to feel like they are really in I think, helping to give, but also being seen for what they're giving. And this kind of acknowledgement and this recognition for kind of who they are and what they were able to give and kind of like letting their gifts kind of be shown and be seen. Yeah, I agree. I think that there's something to be said about an individual being separated from the fruits of their labor. You know, how many of us get up and go and do something, but then we never really get that product or that service that we're providing. We just become... We produce it, but we don't ever get to be part of it. I think it harkens back to the ideas of shared goals and, more importantly, shared sacrifice. This idea of shared sacrifice and being part of the whole and getting to see how things work out in a way, it's so valuable, and it's so welcoming, and it's so embracing to be like, look, we did this together. This is all of us. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. Yeah, it's really important because then people understand how important their specific piece is and they can see that it actually is very meaningful and you are very much an important part of the puzzle. Yes. You know, and literally from like every single job, you know, like a janitor is just as important and just as critical as an executive, right? Because they are keeping the environments clean and, you know, so that some that people can feel good and and want to come into the workplace. I very much have the belief that everybody within the workplace is extremely important. And if you can kind of think of every individual as the CEO of their own role, and if you can have people come in with that mentality, like, look, you own this. You are the CEO of this specific thing. You can really empower someone to literally give their best because they have more I think they feel more empowered to actually like kind of create in that role, you know, and I think that creation piece is really important to to allow people to express their their ideas, their intellect, their knowledge, their problem solving, their strategy to be able to express that through through their role. Yeah, there's a great story. And I might be getting some specifics wrong, but it's something along the lines of back when they were working on the Apollo missions, like Wernher von Braun and somebody came into the NASA facilities like at three in the morning and the janitor was there. I'm like, what are you doing here? And he's like, I'm putting a man on the moon, sir. You know, it's like, right. I'll put a man on the moon. What are you doing? You know, it's like we're all in this together, man. Like it's so heartwarming to think about that. Yeah, and working, you know, at crazy hours, you know, while their family's at home. I mean, that's a tough job, and somebody has to do it, you know? Yeah, of course. It's meaningful. Like, you're doing things that matter, and if people could realize that on some level... I let me go to Clint Kiles here. He says, what if we prioritize happiness or fulfillment as our metric of success? Gross national happiness is a concept that was developed by the fourth king of Bhutan. Its purpose is to measure how prosperous a country is by focusing on the happiness and well-being of a citizen. This is in contrast to other prosperity measures, namely those that measure economic success, such as GDP. What are your thoughts on that? No, I love it. Filming is, it really stands out to me as to measure it on how fulfilled you feel, right? Because, um, you know, I think, um, happiness is obviously a really beautiful, um, feeling and emotion. Um, but you know, we can't be in a state of happiness at all times, right? Obviously we can measure it because we want to be more so, you know, than less than, and we're depressed. Um, but I think fulfillment is a really interesting metric because, um, I think Feeling fulfilled, you know, that's ultimately when you're feeling fulfilled, right? You're more connected to who you are, your truest self. And that's really kind of, I think, the purpose that we have here in life is to become more and more of our truest selves. And in doing so, I think going through that kind of process of becoming extremely authentic to you, you're discovering what your unique capabilities are. and what your unique gifts are. And ultimately, once you connect and find those gifts, then you get to share them with the world. And that's where this fulfillment comes from, because you find something that's very kind of like innately special to you that you love doing, that makes you feel fulfilled and happy doing it, joyous doing it. You know, I think we've lost a lot of joy into happiness. And then... you get to share them to the world as your gifts. And I think that's where that feeling of fulfillment really comes through. And I think that's kind of Crow Young's process of individuation is to really finding out exactly who you are and kind of what your purpose is for this lifetime. Yeah, that's really well said. I love the idea of fulfillment and sharing gifts. It really makes you start thinking how important a shadow is. You need that shadow, whether it's to scare you into making the sacrifice or whether it's for you to sit in the dark for a while or to be surrounded by some darkness in order to really look for that light. You know what I mean? It's interesting. Jessica, it brings up an idea. Like when we start talking about fulfillment and being part of the whole, I bet you we could measure that. I bet you our good friend Luke Jensen, who is in the Sacred Valley in Peru, he's doing some interesting work on psychedelics and brain imaging. I bet you we could see brain scans. We could see different areas of the brain light up when we're fulfilled. Do you think that's plausible? Oh, yeah, I believe it. Absolutely. I would love to see that. Yeah, I would love to see more and more of these studies done on these aspects of who we are as human beings. I struggle with the word productivity sometimes. I think behind it, the sentiment can be good. But I think also when people think, oh, you just want me to be more productive, it also has a negative connotation. So what does productive actually mean? And maybe organizations need to take that a step further of like, okay, well, what is productive? What are the values of being productive that we have as a company? How do we want to help you show up as a better person? And then I think it makes... individuals feel more kind of represented, seen, cared for if we're looking at, okay, well, for us, productivity means that you feel fulfilled within your role. You find joy in doing your role. You feel like you're contributing to the greater good of the company, and you also understand why your specific job function is so incredibly important to this corporation. So maybe something like that would... would I think maybe soften some of the negative connotations around productivity. But to your to your question, yeah, I would absolutely, absolutely love to see more studies done on the impact of psychedelic experiences or just, you know, it doesn't always have to be with plant medicine, right? Just being able to get people into these altered states of consciousness and able to kind of do that healing and tap into their own intuition and their own wisdom. And, you know, that's why I love the Jungian coaching work because that's exactly what it does is kind of guide you into in within. Yeah, it's I can't I can't help but think about. productivity and the way the English language has the ability to be adaptive and change and maybe what you just said maybe strikes me as our definition of productivity is beginning to change and I think that productivity especially like if you use like the metaphor like the older companies like maybe a company that is a multinational corporation that has a large board of directors that are seasoned individuals like they have an idea of productivity because their shareholders want something but then you look at an agile startup and they have this work-life balance that's often seen as a pejorative to some of these bigger companies like you have a work-life balance but you don't make money what's wrong with you but If we just pan back, we could see the word productivity slowly changing its form into something that is a pejorative into something that's more meaningful. Is that possible? Do you think that that can be happening? I think it's necessary. I do. If you're so overworked and you're so stressed out because you don't have work-life balance and you don't have an ounce of time to yourself, you're just in fight or flight or survival mode. If you think about how many people operate, and I lived a lot of my life like this because I was always... You know, I put so much value and emphasis into the amount of hours I worked and how much of my energy and life I poured into, you know, this career woman that I was at the time. And I still very much am. But it looks so much different for me now. And what I find is that from shifting from this, you know, kind of like. perfectionist driven type of work that was just work hard, play hard, never have a second to myself. And I was just draining myself. And yes, was I getting a lot done? I was. But the ability that I have now to be way more strategic and to think through problems differently and to accomplish the same thing is much different. And I'm able to do so much more with less time. And that is what allows me to have this work-life balance that is so important. And, you know, I think that too, it's really important for our own mental health to have this space and have that balance because you just can't be operating in that kind of survival or fight or flight mode all the time. The reality of it is we can't learn. We cannot grow. We cannot evolve when we're in that mode. And I think many people for me, like I didn't even fully realize that I was constantly always in that mode of just like, what's next I gotta get something done I have so much to do um you know my to-do list is a page long and I gotta get this done at home and I would just try to do it all and I always did it all and it just burnt me out and I was getting panic attacks and I had such bad anxiety and I was having insomnia so then the next day you know I was going into that environment trying to do all this work again but I I just wasn't healthy I think emotionally mentally because I was so kind of like strung out from doing too much so um you know if I see what I'm able to create, develop, contribute now, it's on another level, I think, because I have that space and I found that balance and it just allows so much more impactful, meaningful product to come through me. Product is probably not the best word, but so much more to come through me. Was there like a significant event? You know, you talk about being a career woman, that culture thrust upon you, their vision. Maybe you didn't say it exactly like that, but it seems to me that you were cast into this position that you thought you had to be in, having anxiety, like getting all these things done. And like, was there an event? Was it a site? Was it a psychedelic journey? Was it maybe a family member dying? Was it part of you dying? Like, what was the catalyst for you to be like, wait a minute? I can't do this anymore. I'm not happy. Like, was there a particular time that you can remember that really kind of pushed you over the edge to change or to grow, I should say? Yes, definitely. So I think it was there was a lead up to a very to a very pivotal point. So I think there was a lead up of just kind of looking around. So I was, you know, I was in the career. I was a producer, vice president, producer at a consulting firm. And, you know, I'd worked my way up to the ladder from like the ground up and I was so proud of myself and I was, you know, making all this money. And at the same time, you know, I was making more money than I ever did. And I was one of the top producers, but I was empty. I was feeling empty and I wasn't feeling fulfilled. And it felt like it was never enough, you know, not, it wasn't ever enough for the company, nor was it ever enough for me. And, and I just kind of looked around and I said, you know, what are, you know, what are other people experiencing that are in this role? And I just, I didn't see like the level of kind of happiness or fulfillment that I had hoped to see. And, you know, some people very much were, but I think for me, it was just an environment that I didn't feel like I could thrive in any longer because I was having a lot of those. It was ultimately myself saying, Jessica, you're not in alignment. You are working yourself to the ground and, uh you are not on the path that you're you know meant to be on at the moment so that anxiety those panic attacks the insomnia they were alerts they were alerts for me to say you need to come back to yourself you need to look within and you need to um come back into alignment and get on uh you know the path Um, that you're supposed to be on. So, um, that was kind of like a buildup towards a, uh, a psychedelic experience that I had. And in that experience, um, had, you know, what you would call an ego dissolution where I could feel. Everything that, you know, I kind of call like the human condition. Yeah. Aspects of ourselves, the kind of blockages, the walls that we build, the kind of like things that we put around ourselves that we don't even intentionally realize that we're doing it. I felt them all disintegrate. And I truly was just one with the universe. And, you know, that's an experience that a lot of people have in these journeys. And I felt very much just like oneness all around me. And it was the most beautiful experience. I felt self-love. I felt this, the innate worthiness that we, you know, that we all have, you know, the worthiness that we all are. And it was so beautiful. It was so beautiful. And this joy and this happiness and this peace that I hadn't really experienced in a long time. You know, when you get into these states of anxiety and You can almost forget what it feels like to be out of it. It's your new normal. So you don't even realize that you're just in kind of a constant state of anxiety or maybe in just an energetic level that you weren't once in. So I was able to re-experience kind of these feelings of joy, self-love, self-worth, innate self-worth, not external worth by bringing clients or closing deals. that I had in a long time. And as the medicine started to wear off, I could see each one of them start to come back and start to go in. And I was like, no, I don't want to go back to that. I don't want to feel that again. And ultimately what I realized was that, well, a lot of my anxiety is kind of because I'm trying to conform to what other people expect me to be or what I expect myself to be because of what, you know, other societal norms that I should be or what I thought I should be at this age, you know, at this moment. And I was like, wait a second. I didn't agree to any of this. Yeah. I didn't agree to any of that. So I just said I just had to like totally reevaluate everything. And, you know, it just showed me. And this is why, you know, we always talk about like these medicines are beautiful catalysts to transformation. But the real transformation is the work that you do afterwards, because I was given a lot of information. It was saying, Jessica, you have a lot of work to do. So go do it. I gave you all the material and go do the work. And that really is what kind of set me off into going down this path and doing more work in, you know, in the psychedelics community. And, you know, ultimately it was, as I kept working with the medicine, I just kept finding my own healing, my own transformation. And I just wanted to give it back to everybody else because I knew my experiences weren't too dissimilar from what many other people were experiencing in their everyday life. You know, we all have micro and macro traumas that, you know, we experience haven't worked on. We all carry, I think a lot of stress in our environments. It's, you know, we're living in kind of very challenging times right now. So my story was not dissimilar from, from many other people. So for me, it was like, okay, this, these medicines are so incredibly powerful. How can I help other people, you know, have these experiences or access these medicines or, you know, not even through just the medicine, but doing things like the union coaching, where you can take people into their own conference to help guide them and get the answers from within as well. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. It's always super inspiring to get to hear the way in which people decided to start working on themselves in a way that benefits not only themselves but all their relationships. I think it's super inspiring, Jessica. Thank you for that. After that experience, you talk about doing the work. It takes a lot of courage to do that, especially if you're going to remove these labels of Jessica, the vice president, like that's gotta be a tough label to pull off there. Right? Like, did it take some time to pull those labels off and discover what was really out there? Yeah. The labels, you know, I think the, the connection to, you know, how much money we need to make that was a big one that was very much money driven you know I was in a sales role so it's always like that was kind of like showing me how well I was doing that was giving me you know a value of worth for what I was contributing so it absolutely you know and again you just it's very easy to get caught up and wanting to make more and more and more to feel like you're getting better and better in your job or your role and And it can distract you from what's really important. Yes, we need money. And, you know, that is obviously important. But there's so many other things that are so important. So a lot of what I did in that journey and in that process, that integration process was just unlearning. unlearning so much that I had been taught, that I had been programmed, that I had picked up over time, all of these beliefs that I had about myself. So it was really this process of unlearning and then deciding for myself what I believed and this kind of like relearning process and looking into different cultures, different religious practices, spirituality, and just really kind of looking at all the information and then deciding from there what I believed and kind of who I was. So it did take a lot to undo that. And it's not an easy process because your ego is going to fight you. It is going to like really fight you because it doesn't want those parts. Every time, you know, you kind of shed parts of who you are, There's a fight with your ego because it's not safe for that, for, you know, the ego to go into the unknown. So these parts of you that are kind of dying that you don't want to be anymore, you're, you're gonna let go. it's, it's not always an easy process to, to shed them. And it can be very confusing because the ego can get very loud. Um, but it's, it's a necessary process and I think it gets easier over time. Um, but it does take discipline and I think it takes like, you know, a total shift in perspective in, in what's important and also how we take care of ourselves. You know, that was another thing, you know, I was definitely like drinking a lot, um, you know, between like, um, networking and going out with friends and I wasn't eating well. So like literally just the most simple basics of like, what do I put in my body? You know, if you can start to look at your body as your body is, you know, a vessel here on earth, it's kind of like your, your temple. So you should be treating it like that. You're all taking care of it. You should be You know, I shifted to eating organic foods, to doing yoga, to stretch out the body, to kind of clear the energetic system, meditation, to practice quiet in the mind, journaling for me to express. getting into music. So that way I was kind of working, you know, fostering that neuroplasticity and an ongoing business. So yeah, there was so much, so much that I needed to do and, and also just be comfortable with all of this unknown. Cause it was a big, big shifts in my life. Uh, and I didn't know exactly where I was going. I just kind of had to take one step at a time going into this kind of state of the unknown. Yeah. there's that great quote that says, the next step reveals the fall, the next step reveals the next step. And it's really difficult to have, to be faced with the unknown and especially to, you know, you had mentioned the idea of letting go or surrendering to things, which brings up another quote that I'm reminded of that says, psychedelics are a substance you take that has radical psychotic effects on everyone around you. You know, like it makes everyone else, like you can ruin relationships. Like maybe you don't ruin them, but like sometimes you take psychedelics and you cut off that relationship. You're like, wait a minute, this is a very unhealthy thing I'm doing here. I know what it's like to leave a workplace where you're making good money because you can't do it anymore. I mean, physically, you could probably do it, but mentally and spiritually, you can't do it. It's killing you inside. That is a giant step, and that can lead people around you, even relationships with people you love. What are you doing? You're going to leave this thing? Jessica, what's wrong with you? You know how much money you're making? This is not you. Who are you? Did you ever have an encounter that particular way? conundrum? Oh yeah. There are people. Yeah. I think people probably thought I was crazy, but like you, you can ask prior to psychedelic experiences, but this was when I was starting to really be aware of like, you know, the anxiety was kind of showing me and telling me, I needed to make some shifts in my life and I needed to listen to myself. And yeah, I mean, I remember the CEO of the company sat down with me and he's like, he's like, I just don't understand. Like you, you have been so driven to get to this point that you are at right now, you know, you're, you're making a ton of money or, you know, you have a senior role. And you're finally at the point you, I basically had to work like five years of just like hustle and grind, not really anything. And then, you know, the next kind of three, four years was like really where all the money started to come. And it's just like, it doesn't make any sense to me. It's just like, I know I get it, but I just, I have to listen to my heart. And I just, I feel, I feel that there's more for me and I feel that I need to experience more in life. And I also just, you know, I'm not feeling like this is going to be it for me or going to fulfill me. So I've definitely had those talks, you know, many times also from when I was transitioning into this space too, into the psychedelics world. I don't think, again, maybe just out of kind of like people helping me to try to make sure I'm making the right decision. Like, are you sure this is where you want to go? And it's hard for other people to understand, you know, but for me, and I think a lot of people that are in this space, it's mission driven, right? It becomes your purpose. You feel so connected to it because you know the transformation that you've had and you almost feel as though it's your responsibility, but in like a way that you want to. You want to educate people on this. You want to give back. You want to share this with others because you know that it can be so helpful for them. And that was my kind of transition into this phase was it was just, I just I knew and energetically I started to do more and more and more. It was almost like, you know, unconsciously. all of my energy starts to shift more and more and more to this work and less of the, you know, other kind of world I was in. So I just, and I allowed it, you know, I could very much feel like we'd have to get back to this. We have to get back to this. And I just, I allowed it. And I started to take more time to focus on the space, to network in the space. And I think when we, when we do allow, allow ourselves to kind of follow that little pull that either gentle pull or that very kind of strong pull that can come from the heart, that's ultimately where you're going to kind of be on the path, right? It's all within here. And that's kind of where you, it's kind of like, that's your compass. It might be a kind of gentle pull where your energy feels good to go, or it might be something that when you experience it, talk about it, you know, do that work, it really just lights you up or it gets like a strong pull. And that's ultimately what you have to listen to. And, you know, I was fortunate enough that after enough time, I did finally listen to it and I'm grateful that I did. I'm grateful you did too. And I think a lot of people listening to this and I bet you there's, there's still stories at your work. I'm like, Oh, I can't believe she left. But that, that begs the question. Why did she leave? People start investigating. Well, what's she doing now? I wonder why she walked away from like, and that is contagious. Like that is sort of that, that stone in the pond that radiates ripples and affects the affects the shoreline. Like I, it's the stories that happen. And I'm super grateful that not only you shared that, the story with us, but that you, you have done it. And it, I think what does it mean for you now? You are in this new space and we've talked a little bit about you moving into these new roles, but let's shift gears and talk about what it is you're actually doing right now. Yeah. So in the psychedelics world, I'm very much focused on education and access. I'm working with an organization called Anthea and our mission is to help people get insurance coverage for these medicines. So we work with employers, unions, EAPs to be able to cover these therapies, only the therapies that are FDA approved medicine or legal. What we're focused on now is helping employers to one, understand the benefits of ketamine assisted therapy, as well as psilocybin therapy and some other kind of innovative mental health approaches. And then not only that, but what is Enthea's role in helping employers to provide access and coverage for these therapies? Because the reality of it is, ketamine therapy is very much here. But there's not really outside of Enthea, there's not really like very many kind of guardrails around it. So Enthea is a really important model to help employers educate their employees on, you know, what are, how does it work? What are the benefits and also how, you know, what is the appropriate treatment protocol? And, you know, we've, we obviously leverage evidence-based treatment protocols based on the clinical research and, um, and our model is focused on, um, access to short-term therapy. So going through six medicine sessions, eight therapy sessions, and, um, I think providing that education on like, well, you know, these outcomes that the clinical research is showing. are really built around a short-term treatment model. And I think that's when, after they go through these sessions, the ongoing integration and that ongoing work that you do on yourself becomes so incredibly important. And then also making sure, obviously, that all the providers are credentialed, trained, licensed. So it's a really important model so that employers can provide the safest access with the highest quality doctors, making sure that the employees are utilizing it in the appropriate way that's based on the clinical research and more kind of the short-term model. that's some of the work that we're doing. And I'm really grateful for that opportunity because it allows me to educate individuals that otherwise may not be aware of these treatments of these therapies, not only for their employees, but for themselves as well. And it's also really exciting that we'll be able to this is actually new. We'll be able to help employers cover psilocybin treatments as well in Oregon and soon Colorado. So that's a really beautiful opportunity to be able to help people access that and be able to help people afford it because it can be expensive. So, yes. some of the work that I'm doing. And then, you know, I'm also looking at integrating psychedelic medicine into addiction centers. So I think that that's really important too. You know, I think many people don't know, but with the Twelve Steps program, the individual that invented the Twelve Steps program he used LSD to overcome his addiction. And then through that experience, he came up with the twelve steps. So I think that, you know, in these addiction centers, it's very much like all drugs are bad. And I guess I just don't look at psychedelics as drugs. I look at them as really powerful medicine and medicine that can really be influential in, you know, some are influential in actually, you know, breaking the addictions. But I think more importantly, Many people that struggle with addiction, they're struggling because there's some unresolved trauma or some challenging experience that they've had that they haven't been able to work through because many of us don't have the tools to work through them. So if we're able, if we know these medicines are really powerful in helping people to get to the root cause of what's causing these, what's underlying these conditions, Um, then we can help people to heal that part of them and help people to, you know, no, no longer feel the need to have to rely on something to, you know, ultimately numb themselves or help them not think of that past experience or not feel, um, you know, kind of the, um, the outcomes of that. You know, if you think about like PTSD or anxiety, like they're very visceral feelings, extremely visceral feelings that can come on out of nowhere. And that's really challenging and scary. You know, I dealt with that a lot, this kind of like fear, worry, and doom that would come out of nowhere for no apparent reason. It's a very scary thing. So being able to, I think, understand where it's coming from and to have the experience and the integration to be able to work through that and kind of resolve some of those traumas, I think is really the future of helping people through addiction. I love it. I think it's applicable in so many areas. I used to be a Teamster and a shout out to local nine ninety six and five forty two and the Teamsters everywhere. As a UPS driver and I know a lot of people that find themselves at a job like UPS or FedEx or even Amazon. Like, the dirty secret is, like, there is a lot of violence that happens in these places. Like, a lot of it. Like, you don't have to comb the headlines too much to see workplace shootings. Like, I remember when I was at UPS, like, a couple times a month, maybe not, a couple times a year, you would read, like, this little blurb about someone that shot up a place. And you're like, oh, my God. I've seen threats at the center that I worked at. And I can't help but think. If the Teamsters or the UPS pension plan or UPS as a corporation offered this particular therapy, I guarantee you there would be less violence. I guarantee you there would be less accidents. It's mind-blowing to me to think that that's not on the table. If you could stop workplace violence, what does that do for productivity? What does it do for productivity when the guy or girl comes in and they no longer want to kill their boss or hate their boss on a level that's visceral? That person's going to be a little bit better of an employee. These particular therapies, while they could be scary for people or they may not yet fully, thoroughly understand how to fund it, they could be lifesaving for lots of people in the workplace. I think it could really change the way people work in that environment. I just wanted to get at that. I know there's going to be tons of UPS listening to this one. So my shout out to all the UPS drivers out there. You guys are amazing. You men and women are amazing if you work at UPS. I love you. But we should be thinking about implementing this, especially with the teamsters throughout. I really hope that it's something that can be done and it should be done. I know that you have worked with Dr. Bronner. You and your team have gotten this particular ketamine therapy into different places. How does that look on the horizon for more places adopting this? Yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent. And, you know, I have actually done a lot of work with unions and I worked with the teamsters as well, the teamsters of the Philadelphia vicinity. And I personally love working with unions. And they're some of my favorite groups to work with. And I agree with you a hundred percent. I've actually been doing a lot of work to educate unions. And we were just at IFEBP yesterday. to present to that community on the power of psychedelic medicine and that it's here and how can you safely provide access to your members and ensure that it's the right treatment, the appropriate treatment, the right treatment protocols. But yeah, I a hundred percent agree. union members they have really challenging jobs right they're very challenging hours they're very strenuous you know hard labor it's hard on the body they're very exhausted at the end of the day and it's also very important work and you know and I think when we think about that type of um you know it's not all men there's women there too but yes It's a lot of men with, and the mentality tends to be, you know, don't deal with it, you know, just brush it under the rug, you know, like don't talk about it. There's a lot of stigma around talking about emotions. And they also don't want to, you know, I think many people don't want to be on a medication every single day. So oftentimes then what is your medication going to be? It's going to be alcohol or some other substance or some other thing that you're going to engage in. That's going to get you to not think about, you know, what you're dealing with or not feel what you're feeling. Oftentimes, what we see is within these populations, there's a high prevalence of addiction. There's a high prevalence of suicide. Suicide for labor and construction, it's four times the national average. It's five times greater than any other workplace fatality combined. I very much believe that there's a lot of suffering, a lot of quiet suffering that's going on within union populations. You know, talk therapy is good, but oftentimes when you have like kind of these really strong defense mechanisms, you can't get under the hood to what needs to be addressed. And talking about it can be really challenging. And that's the beauty of these medicines, because the medicines ultimately will help to, you know, one, soften the default mode network, and it also is going to soften the ego, right? So it's going to kind of help you to bypass some of those defense mechanisms so that you can get into the trauma or whatever you need to work through and bring it to light and do so in a gentle way. And then you have, you know, kind of on hand, what you need to work through in, within therapy, in integration, and you can then do so in a very meaningful way. So I absolutely believe that these medicines can be so healing for that community. And, um, you know, for, uh, for unions, for firefighters, um, for police officers, there's, um, a Sarco Gregarian he's, um, in the, um, township of Winthrop in Massachusetts. And he's a really big advocate. He was on How to Change Your Mind talking about these therapies. I think it was MDMA specifically for police officers. And a lot of these individuals, they struggle with PTSD because they see really traumatic situations and then they're bringing that into work. And, you know, if you're bringing that into a work when you're also working with a firearm and really stressful situations, like it's not a good recipe, you know? So we have to have better, stronger, more effective tools like these medicines can help people work through these really deeply rooted and very complex things. I think a lot of times it's like, it's so challenging. You can't even wrap your head around how to actually work through it. So that's why these medicines can be so, so beautiful in helping people to, um, to heal those wounds and, and to be able to break through. So I would, I would love to see more unions providing access to psychedelic assisted therapy. Yeah, me too. I've, I've been there. I remember being out in the parking lot and talking to a fellow driver, and we were talking about his daughter had tried to commit suicide. I remember we just sat out there and cried for a little bit, and then going in the next day and talking to the center manager and being like, hey, so-and-so's daughter tried to commit suicide, and he goes, who's that? I don't know who that is. I was so offended. I was like, you knucklehead. That guy's been here for twenty years. You don't even know his name? I since softened my approach and I began to see that guy as like, look at the stress this guy's under. This guy probably isn't living a very good life either. But it's that tension between the two classes that are perceived two classes inside that structure that is just constant. causing so much of the detrimental problems not only in productivity but in reduction of service and you know the the relationships between everybody and I I really think that these medicines have a great place in the health care system if we can be and have an open and honest discussion about how they can help and why they can help and a great point like you said about the the police officer who's not only bringing that into work but what about bringing that home like his wife has to feel that his kids have to feel that on a level that's damaging them. And then we get back into the idea of relation or generational trauma like that. Now they have to carry the shadow with them on so many levels. It's such a deep, deep problem. But I think that the shining light is that here's these medicines that have been around for so long and they have a proven track record of safety. They have a proven track record of healing and opening up and new growth. It's almost like it's meant to be. Yeah, I agree. I mean, especially when you look at, you know, some of the natural medicines that we have. Yeah. You know, like psilocybin, it's a, you know, a natural mushroom that we have access to. So, you know, I think it's very evident that we should be using it, you know. It blows my mind to think about. Jessica, how are you on time? Are you okay on time or do you have another thing coming up? Yeah. Are you doing okay on time or do you have something else? Okay. Okay. Fantastic. I know I conversations tend to go really fast. And so, but I have another question coming in right here and it says, what are the biggest psychological barriers for health systems and insurers to embrace psychedelic therapies? The biggest psychological barriers, I think, comes from probably the war on drugs and a lot of the messaging that was delivered and the fact that it's, you know, they're still federally legal. So, you know, that's the biggest barrier. And, you know, that's not only a psychological barrier, too, because I think there's just like a lot of stigma there. And, you know, many of these... I think many people weren't educated on these types of medicines throughout their schooling to become a doctor, become a physician, often wasn't really taught back then. So there's definitely a lot of, I think, just lack of education or more education that's needed. And also just kind of like looking at different ways that we can provide access legally. So like, what can we do now with what's available, maybe in more of a clinical research setting to provide that access? But, you know, I think even for health systems too, you know, if it gets legalized in a specific state, but it's still federally legal, then would that impact like funding or something like that? So those are some of the things that I think that they have to think through. But the reality of it is, I mean, If you look at a health system and they're treating patients, you know, they're struggling with the same thing that employers are struggling with, that people are with mental health, you know, many people are, the prevalence is increasing, right? And more and more people need help. So the system, you know, the resources that we have are impacted because so many people need to use those resources. And it's still really challenging to get an appointment with a therapist or a psychiatrist, and it takes a lot of time. So the reality of it is, you know, we, These health systems need to be able to provide solutions that are helping to resolve these conditions. I don't want to use the word curative because we're always going to be having to work through things, but we need medicines that can really help people have these breakthroughs and not need to be in the system anymore. There's too many people and not enough resources in the world of mental health. Um, so, you know, if you think about anything like, you know, could you cannibalize on, on certain, um, on certain business that a health system has, you know, when it comes to mental health, I think it's necessary because their, um, therapist, uh, their psychiatrist, they're oftentimes overworked, they're getting burned out. We need to get more people kind of out of the system. And, you know, my, my mind, if you think about like, well, um, you know, innovation and attracting new patients and attracting new people to your health system. I mean, how powerful would it be if you can say, well, we are actually helping people to break through their anxiety, break through their depression, break through their PTSD. They're not relapsing, you know, within the first year like many people do. So if you can come and say that you're having this level of outcomes where people are having these breakthroughs and they're no longer needing therapy or medication or whatever it may be anymore, then in my mind, people would travel to go see them. You know, you would flock to somewhere where you know that you can go and get healed. And then with insurance companies, you know, obviously there's still the issue with legality, but you know, I think for them, there's just so much, education that's needed to help them understand how safe these medicines actually are and how beneficial they actually can be. And also to get maybe a bit more education on what some of the current medicines and the current pharmaceuticals are actually doing to individuals. um you know I was just on a webinar yesterday with out outro health and they're doing some really amazing work to help people taper off of their medications and they were talking about the withdrawal experiences that people have after getting off of their medications and how detrimental they can be and how long they can actually last. And many, many times these withdrawal symptoms feel like the condition. So you think you're just getting back, but it's actually the medicine that's causing it. So I say this because, you know, when I talk to insurance companies or I talk to employers, there's like so much scrutiny over which, you know, I understand it's new. There's so much scrutiny over these medicines and and they are very safe. And if they didn't put the same level of scrutiny into some of the other things that they're covering, I wonder if they would want to even cover it, if they did that level of analysis into it. Yeah, it's amazing to try and differentiate science from company science. You know what I mean by that? Like, this is company science. Like, look how good this looks on paper over here. This is amazing. You know, it's interesting to think about. Here's a great question. It says, if healthcare systems had a collective shadow, what would it look like and how can it be transformed? Collective shadow. Well, man, I think there's a lot of... This is going to be tough. Scott can say this. Look, the reality of it is, you know, insurance companies, they're corporations and corporations are driven by money. right um so I would say shadow the shadow side would be this kind of um maybe greed or this kind of need for for more and more money um so that could be the shadow uh because I think that if it wasn't about the money I think that we'd be running insurance companies a lot differently um and I think that it would be way more focused on um preventive healthcare versus, you know, a model that's really built around sick care. So, yeah, I mean, there's definitely a lot of, there's definitely shadow aspects to insurance companies. That's a really great question. But, you know, I think we have to help them come to the light, right? And give them tools and solutions that are really focused on um, helping people to heal, helping people to have these breakthroughs and, and not ultimately like not have to utilize insurance, right? I think that's, that's really the goal for everybody is to not utilize the insurance that you have. Um, so it's not need to go to the doctor, should not need to go into the hospital. And the best way to do that is to keep the mind, body, the soul healthy, right? All of it has to be healthy. And I think, We've spent so much time just focusing on physical health. And that was kind of this era that we were in. It's everything physical, physical. Then focus on like, okay, well, what about the mind? We have to actually heal the mind. And the mind, if we can heal the mind, that's ultimately going to ripple out into healing the body as well. We're going to have more positive thoughts, more positive thinking. And that really does have an impact. You know, your thoughts really do shape your reality, you know, your external reality, as well as your your experiences that you have. So we just don't focus on that enough. And, you know, you see more and more around reality. companies covering like things like meditation and you know covering yoga and that's so important and I would love to just keep seeing more and more of that you know and everything I'm saying it's not to kind of like take away from all the amazing things that you know some of these companies and insurance companies are covering because there is some of that as well so I just want to make sure we address that Yeah, no, I on some level, I think it's necessary. We spoke earlier about the shadow and how it can seem like this giant, scary monster. But in the end, it's just trying to get your attention. And if we hold that for a moment and then we combine that with the story that you told us about your transformation. You know, might we be living through the transformation of not only an aging boomer class but an aging insurance class? You know what I mean by that? Like if you start looking at the models, like if you pull back the curtain, you can see new models emerging like, okay, we're going to charge you only if we fix you. There's these new models that are emerging. That's a pretty cool idea. I don't thoroughly know how it works out, but let's investigate that more. Yeah. And we start talking about healing the mind. And maybe if we stop focusing on all of the horrible sickness and start focusing on wellness, the sickness begins to fall away on some level, not ignoring it, but like, okay, let's study these people that are crushing it. Like let's study these people that have a really amazing wellness and figure that out instead of focusing on people that have this really horrible sickness. And maybe we start to change our awareness and where our awareness goes, our energy flows or something along those lines. You think we're moving into a new dynamic or a new – era of insurance where we change the way we actually care about ourselves and it works? Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I did this training program before and they talked about how COVID, you know, that period of COVID was kind of like this collective ego death that we all kind of went through and there was this kind of like breaking down that everyone had to experience and that everyone did experience as a collective. And while it was so challenging, there were a lot of positive things that came out of it. I think, you know, people are demanding this work-life balance and saying like, why do I need to drive commute for two hours both ways when I can be more productive and do something here? And just, I think really, focusing more on like what brings them joy and happiness and fulfillment and all of that stuff. So, you know, I think that that was a really interesting concept around kind of this collective ego disillusion or that had to happen for us to kind of wake up to see like what's actually going on here and how we've been operating. And, you know, I think that, yeah, there are new models that are coming out and kind of that value-based and, you know, focused on, you know, higher pay if you improve outcomes, I think is absolutely the right approach. And I think in general, to your point around just like so much more emphasis, energy, attention, focus on keeping individuals well and keeping yourself well. And again, I think that that was that's something that has been going on, but it's been primarily focused on the physical body. So keep your body well, keep your body well, keep your body well. And I think many people are like, OK, well, I'm running, I'm eating better. and I'm still not feeling great. Well, we need to also do prevention in the mind and, you know, healing work in the mind and this kind of wellness work in the mind. And I think that that's so incredibly important is to focus on how can we improve our thoughts? How can we kind of quiet some of those thoughts? How can we have more positive self-talk? I know many people, you know, this is something I always had to work on this like negative talk that just would kind of like go on and kind of chatter inside. And you really have to actively work to shift that, you know, anytime you start to get that worry, those worries or like those kind of, um, negative thoughts coming in, you have to, a really great tactic is to kind of immediately replace it with a positive thought, a positive affirmation to practice shifting into these more positive ways of thinking. Um, so yeah, I think that we, we absolutely do need more emphasis on, you know, the wellness and keeping yourself, preventing yourself from getting sick, but there's just so much more, I think, um, education that people need on on how to do that and tools to do that and more emphasis on on um you know getting out of the mind and kind of more connected to to your heart too I think that's another important aspect of this yeah yeah I sometimes i I'm curious how the world of psychedelic medicine may evolve on some level. I think maybe there's different levels of help and there's people need different levels of care regardless of what it... I mean, you need different levels depending on what your symptoms are and what you might have. However, I think that there's a lot of issues people have where they can maybe take... do a psilocybin journey once with somebody and then go off on their own and start digging deeper into themselves. That seems like a great move for insurance companies. You just have to pay for this thing one time and you kind of teach people how to use it and then now they're off to the races and maybe influencing other people in some ways. Is that something that could be beneficial? Yeah. And then I think where you put more of the resources after that is like these tools around integration and community, because, you know, look, you're going to get a lot from these psychedelic experiences. Right. And, you know, not everyone is equipped to be able to integrate those experiences. So, you know, yes, you can have massive transformation. We've seen people, you know, stop drinking after, you know, one psilocybin experience, like totally quit cold turkey or, you know, be kind of in bed and not be able to really function and then be able to just find joy and happiness again. So we really are beautiful medicines. But the reality of it is, though, there is a lot that is going to come through those experiences. And it's really important to give people the tools thereafter, because I do believe the integration is the most transformative part of the process. So yeah, so if an insurance company or an employer can cover for one psilocybin experience, and then we put a lot of emphasis into also providing access and coverage for the integration and the therapy, and then also education into things like, well, how do you change your diet? You know, what are more education around nutrition? More education around how things like yoga can help and not just physically. Right. I think many times people think about yoga and think just physical. That's what I thought at first. But it's beyond that. It's actually like really clearing kind of our energetic system. So and, you know, the power of meditation for me, I thought meditation was a bunch of BS and yoga. And I was like, I'm never doing that, you know, like yoga. I don't need to stretch. I'm going to go lift. And then I would say, I'm not going to sit for three minutes. I have stuff to do. And then even if I tried, my leg would be shaking. I'd be tapping. I physically couldn't do it because the amount of anxiety I was carrying. But then once I understood like, well, why do you need to do it? And what is it going to bring to me later? Then it's something that I really wanted to work towards. And then I had to find the tools that were right for me. So for me, like when I started this, it was three yoga poses and three minutes a day. That was it every morning. That was that. And it had to happen immediately as soon as I got up out of bed, because if I didn't do that, it wasn't going to happen. If it was any longer than six minutes, I was, I was not going to do it. I was going to go to the gym or something. So, um, Once I build up a habit, then it's expanded into what is my kind of daily devotion practice that I do, that I do to take care of myself, to stay grounded, to prevent anxiety from coming through, to improve my sleep. And now I have, you know, an hour to an hour and a half long practice in the morning. And if I don't do it, you know, I can totally see the difference. I mean, I'm distracted throughout the day. I am not as grounded. You know, I feel like I can't be as present. So these practices are so incredibly important for just like daily performance optimization, mental health. So I think that if we can teach people this. Oh, and then the other thing is also to like having expressive outlets is another really important aspect that we should be investing in helping people to have these expressive outlets, whether it be music, dance, whatever it is for them, because we do need to express and allow, you know, you know, our selves come through us through that expression. So being able to invest in things like that, I think would help to go back to the concept of fulfillment. So you're improving yourself mentally, you're healing your mind, you're staying your grounded, you're clearing your thoughts, you're having more positive thoughts that helps to shape your reality. And then you're able to like express and kind of move, move things through your body. That's really where a lot of this emphasis should be put, put into for employers. And, you know, I would love to help employers design programs like that, that are really cultivated around these like very sound practices that I think are, are age old that we just kind of forgot. And, and, maybe just didn't really fully understand kind of the why behind it. But once you understand the why and then you feel it afterwards, you really start doing it. It's something that you'll want to do all the time. It seems like it has such a community-building effect too. It's one thing. It sort of reminds me of someone that does a psilocybin experience by themselves and then in a group. There's like two different feelings. It sounds to me so are these practices. Like if you did it by yourself at home or if you came into the office and you had like this group activity, like are there – Are there benefits to doing it alone and in a group or what do you think? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, so, you know, doing it alone, it gives you obviously the space to like really kind of like have your own personal experience. And there's beauty in that and obviously healing in that. But doing this work in community, I mean, there's been a ton of studies around how people impactful uh community is and how impactful it is to the actual healing experience and that it can um improve the outcome and that also just doing um doing some of even not not any like psychedelic medicine but doing activities in community is extremely healing You know, doing, let's say, drum circles or, you know, dancing or maybe doing art together. It's very healing, you know, and some of the work that I do is kind of like this expressive arts, you know, so bringing that into, you know, an organization or, you know, with a community of people. And kind of doing this work around shadow or archetypes and using art to kind of express and get some of that stuff out. And then you can share in community. And when you're sharing in community, you're, again, creating this kind of vulnerable – you're creating this kind of vulnerable – aspect where we can all kind of come together and experience healing. Sorry, I had a call come through, so I lost the camera for a second. Yeah, no worries. No worries at all. I just got a couple more questions, and then I just want to end up with, I got three more awesome ones, and let me just start off with this one right here. How do you envision the relationship between science and spirituality evolving as psychedelics become more accepted? That's a great question. Yeah, so spirituality is an interesting one. I do see the science evolving around spirituality because spirituality, I think, is a component of the psychedelic experience. And, you know, spirituality doesn't necessarily mean religion. It means, you know, this kind of spiritual experience that you have and oftentimes when you go through a psychedelic experience you are having a spiritual experience as well and oftentimes you know from uh my own experience, as well as many others that talk about their experiences, you are very much kind of tapping into one, you know, a spiritual realm, but to seeing the kind of spiritual aspects of ourselves, you know, that we are very much, you know, kind of divine spiritual beings. And I think that we've kind of disconnected from a lot of our spiritual nature and just our understanding of spirituality. You know, if you think of, you know, when I think of spirituality, I think of like, you know, you know, nature and how we need to be connected to nature and how disconnected to nature that we are. And also, when I think of spirituality, I think of kind of like the oneness of all of us and, you know, how truly connected and similar we all are. And, you know, when I think Many people feel this when other people are in pain, you feel their pain, whether you know it or not. So this kind of like connectedness to nature, to each other. I think that that's kind of what becomes more apparent when you start working with these medicines and you know how. powerful we actually are is kind of another aspect of spirituality that I think that you experience with these medicines and and you know going back to like science if you can understand you know one how much healing we can do um through ourselves you know through changing our thoughts through um you know, kind of really, uh, through more positive beliefs, um, about yourself or about your experience, um, and the power that the mind actually has to help facilitate some of that, or, um, you know, the healing that can be done, uh, through nature. Um, I think that I'd like to see more and more science study that. And there are some studies, you know, going around, uh, studies done on that as well, but this kind of, um, concept of, of, um, yeah, expanding our perspective, expanding our awareness, expanding our consciousness to be more kind of spiritual. And I want to say spiritual, again, it's not religious, but more spiritual beings, which ultimately means that we are more connected to nature, more connected to, or see how connected we are to each other, more connected to our innate power within and our true selves, our most authentic selves, and continue to become more of that. So yeah, I'd like to see more of that done. And then also just looking at how healing some of these currently non-traditional practices can be, I think is another aspect. Yeah, I think it's phenomenal. I echo that sentiment. I think the further we go down the road, the more you see those two things as the same thing. There's so much involved in science and spirituality. I really feel like they belong together in a way that is meaningful and it helps us understand and maybe measure more of what's out there. What role do you see psychedelics playing in addressing not just individual suffering, but systemic issues like inequality or environmental crises? Great question. You know, I think that kind of to go off what I was just saying, you know, it very much is connected to that. I think we've become so disconnected from nature and how important it really is and how important it is to be connected to nature. That can obviously help if we can shift our perspective to, you know, kind of like being one with nature um the earth one with nature and you know be giving back to nature not just like taking from we're the only species that really just takes takes takes and doesn't give back so you always I think should be trying to give back to nature by planting um stuff and making it better than than when you left it um and then also you know the systemic issues just you know I think just to not see ourselves as so different. Everything right now I feel is just so much polarity and so much divisiveness that has been created through the news, through social media, through everything that we're going through right now. And there's just so much polarity that I think is deeply, deeply hurting people. And everyone, many people can feel it. And I think that if we can look at each other as kind of like our community, our brothers and sisters, like we're all family, we're all, we're all deeply connected and we all need to be in this together. Then I think that, and I think that that's, you know, a lot of the learnings that you can get from these experiences, then we can treat each other much differently. We can look at each other with compassion. We can understand that everybody is really just a culmination of their own past experiences and, you know, their own traumas, their own hurts, and just, I would say, maybe live in a more compassionate way, you know, have forgiveness, and then ultimately figure out, like, collaborate together on, like, how can we make this better? And that's the most important part, you know, like... how can we work together to make this better? How can we be a better species and work together, collaborate together in a more productive way, a more loving way, and a more effective way? There's better, so many better ways that we could be doing things. I love it. And when I start processing everything, it makes me think that like you take this medicine and then you become the medicine that helps everybody else. You know what I mean? Like, I obviously don't have a God complex or something like that, but it really helps you become a better version of yourself. And when you do that, Your relationships change. You can change the world by changing your perception. And it seems to me, and my experience has taught me, that these particular medicines have really helped me have a better relationship with myself, and thus all my other relationships have flourished because of it. It's amazing to think of how simple something can be if we have the courage to embrace it. I'm really thankful. Jessica, you've been incredibly gracious with your time today. Thank you so much for being here. I'm hopeful we can do some more of these. And landing the plane, would you be so kind as to tell people what you have coming up, where people can find you, and what you're excited about? Sure, absolutely. So please connect with me on LinkedIn. I always like to stay connected to everybody. So you can find me there, Jessica Tracy. And if you want to reach out via email, you can send me a message on LinkedIn or via email, which is Jessica at the sage collective.co. And geez, I'm excited about a lot of different things. yeah I'm excited about just you know where um you know everything with psychedelic medicine is going to be going and you know how we can continue to educate and create that access um and you know what are the different ways that we can um support individuals in working with these medicines and I would say I'm particularly excited about this about um my work with young and coaching I think one of the things I've realized through my own journey and my own conversations with people is that, well, not everyone is ready to work with the medicine. And I find this as this approach is a really beautiful way to take people into their unconscious, into their psyche, to kind of become more connected intuitively to themselves. to get information to guide them in, you know, different challenges, different dilemmas, or to kind of get them on their path to be working, to be living out, living in more alignment and also to be fulfilling and kind of living out their purpose. And I'm really excited to see where that goes. And, you know, kind of this combination of the psychedelics world and the Jungian world is something that I'm really excited about as well, where we can use these tools, these principles, these approaches to help individuals that have had either challenging psychedelic experiences or that maybe still can't make sense of something that they saw or something that they heard or something that they experienced. And, you know, that's it's a really important, I think, message that the psyche is trying to give. and share. So to be able to help people work through and really kind of understand, um, what's the message behind it for me is, is really, really fascinating. Uh, and then lastly, I'm also going to be, um, uh, working towards, uh, teaching a course on, on psychedelics. So that's super exciting as well. And I'm not going to get into where and that, but I'm, I'm always like just one, you know, anything that I have used to, um, for my own healing and my own transformation, Ultimately, my goal is to share that, educate people on that, so that way if it's something that may benefit them, they can use it. That's really the goal and the mission is to just anything that I've been able to benefit from, I just want to put it out there and share it. Hopefully, other people can leverage it for their own healing, their own transformation. Yeah. Thank you for doing that. I think you're doing a tremendous job at it. I'm super stoked you're out there doing it. I've heard a rumor once that the Red Book was Carl Jung's experimentation with psychedelics. Have you heard that rumor? Any thoughts on that rumor? You know, I've heard I've heard two schools of thought. So I actually heard that he did not that he had a lot of hesitancy around psychedelic medicine. And I think the reason being is that he could very easily go into the unconscious and go into the psyche and work with the shadows like without the medicine. And, you know, I very much connect to that because that's a lot of what I experience as well as being able to very much see the complexes, the shadows and you know, symbols and images, whether it be, you know, just kind of like going in there, having it come to me or through dreams. So I think that, you know, if he did end up taking psychedelics, he probably ended up saying, wow, this is like very, very similar to what he was experiencing in his own work. Um, you know, it, it could make sense that those stories and what he wrote were through his own psychedelic experiences. But from my understanding, um, a lot of that work was just this kind of very intentional, uh, self study that was kind of always going on. Um, and that, uh, that I think the veil was just kind of maybe very thin between the unconscious and conscious for him. So this material was, um, it was. often brought to the forefront and often brought into his awareness. You know, whether he found ways to practice going in there or not, it was brought to his awareness. So he was able to write about them because they were so evident. You know, I think many people, the unconscious, it does impact how you're acting and what you say, but it's not as evident or not as, you know, people may not be as aware of it. But the more you do this work, and I think even the more you work with this medicine, you are able to tap into that space a lot more easy. And I think a lot of what he wrote was just that he was either intentionally or just kind of happened for him. It was easier for him to tap into it, tap into that space. Do you think that all this turmoil, this time of change we're in is like an unconscious explosion into the conscious? Yes. And that's, that's the work of the collective process. And so, yeah. And that's why, you know, we always go back to, you know, everyone hopefully can be doing their, their own work on themselves to better themselves and to focus on like, you know, it's, it's with so much negativity in front of us all the time between news and social media, you know, you're always seeing things that are like negative and that causes a lot of fear for people. And it's easy to worry and to feel sad about it. I shouldn't even say it's easy. It's natural to worry and to feel sad about that. often a lot of what that purpose is to kind of, a lot of the news, it keeps people divisive, divided. So I always try to focus on like, okay, well, what do we want to see? And how do we want this world to be? And what's my role in helping to make that shift? So if we can always try to focus on, well, what do we want this world to be like? What do we want to see? What do we want to experience? And then how can I show up to kind of be that change? Everyone is very powerful. So one person showing up in the change they want to see in the world is going to have a massive ripple effect in everyone in their community and beyond. So just kind of like really understanding the collective unconscious and what we can do to improve our reality is to first start within. And I know it to be true for my own personal experiences. Once you realize that everybody is a mirror for you and that everyone is just kind of mirroring what you have going on internally, you can really start intentionally making these changes and And being more aware of like how you react and, and just showing up more intentionally of how you want, um, how you want to be and how you want others to treat you. I think absolutely does have pretty massive shifts in, um, in the environment, in your environment. Yeah, I love it. I am. Jessica, super thankful for everything today. Ladies and gentlemen, if you're within the sound of my voice or Jessica's voice, go down to the show notes, whether it's today, live, tomorrow, or five years from now. Go down and check out the show notes and reach out to her. She's doing some incredible things. And I think that if you're interested in this, she'd probably like to hear from you. So go down there. Jessica, hang on briefly afterwards. But to everybody else, I hope you have a beautiful weekend. I hope you choose to do some work and make yourself the best possible version of yourself and all your relationships flourish. That's all we got, ladies and gentlemen. Aloha. Thank you.