Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. I hope everybody's day is going beautiful. I hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing, and I hope the wind is at your back. I got with me today, I would love to introduce all of you to Dr. Ayu Saraswati, a feminist trailblazer shaping the intersection of pain, feminism, and power. Tonight, we have the privilege of welcoming a force of intellect and inspiration to our conversation. Dr. Ayu, an award-winning author, celebrated academic and groundbreaking thinker. She brings an unparalleled depth of expertise to the fields of women, gender, and sexuality studies with a PhD from the University of Maryland, College Park, and an illustrious career as a professor at the University of Hawaii, Dr. Sara Swati has become a global voice for understanding the intricate relationship between beauty, race, pain, and feminist activism. Her powerful books such as Seeing Beauty, Sensing Race in Transnational Indonesia, winner of the Gloria Anzaldúa Book Award, and scarred a feminist journey through pain which swept multiple prestigious awards offer trends formative insights into how we experience the world and ourselves dr saraswati's impact extends far beyond the classroom she's a sought-after speaker consultant and board member for influential journals like woman studies quarterly Her work has been celebrated in The Economist, Vogue Australia, and Miss Magazine, among others, and has left a lasting mark on feminist scholarship, with her work named one of Meridian Journal's most impactful pieces of the past twenty years. From her innovative explorations of the neoliberal selfie to her critical reflections on transnational beauty and pain, Dr. Saraswati challenges us to rethink the narratives we live by and the identities we embody. Join us as we delve into the cutting edge ideas of a thought leader who is as fearless as she is insightful. Dr. Ayu, thank you so much for being here today. How are you? Great. But I have to say thank you so much, not only for allowing me to share the space with you, but for such a great, amazing introduction. I was like, wow, that was amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. You made my day. Thank you. Yeah, well, I'm stoked you're here. It's really an interesting time we live in. And I'm really thankful to start maybe we're finally at a place where we're beginning to understand identity a little bit better. And you seem to be at the forefront of that. Maybe before we start talking about the book or the books that you've written, we could talk a little bit about what got you to where you are. So in terms of my work that is sort of like rooted in feminism and empowerment. It actually started with my own sort of stories of growing up. I was born and raised in Jakarta, Indonesia. And I was raised as part of the Javanese. So Java is one of the main islands here in Indonesia. And you've probably heard or tasted the Java coffee or like Java joe and like all of that. So that's where I'm from, and one of the things about my culture that I talk a little bit about in my latest book, A Feminist Journey Through Pain, is the way that I was raised in that It's kind of like male dominated in some ways. And so I grew up with my parents telling me, oh, don't eat too much. And because, you know, you're a woman versus my brother, he can like eat whatever he wanted. And, you know, who cares about his body? And then I had to be back home by eight o'clock. And then who cared about my brother? He could sleep over and stuff like that. So growing up, I kind of like, hmm, there's something off here. Why did he get to do whatever he wanted and all of that? So that was kind of like the seed, so to speak, of me understanding that there was gender inequality even in our own family. And then I went to college, also still in Jakarta, Indonesia. And that's when I started to learn about gender, that there is this thing called gender and gender inequality. And there is word and theory for it. And that's where I started to be interested in issues of feminism more broadly before I went and got my PhD in women's studies. And was able to learn more about the specificity of it, including like what you mentioned, the identities, race and beauty and pain and all of that stuff. It's so fascinating to me to think about. this incredible world we grow up in and we're never really given the tools to really define gender, identity, race. Like we just have sort of our family history and probably every one of us gets taught a little bit something different. What were some of these, were there any definitions given to you or you've touched upon a little bit of how it might've been taught to you, but maybe you can expand on that. Yeah, so the way that we learned about gender, obviously there was no word at the time when I was growing up. By that I meant nobody was telling me like gender this, gender that, but they were using words like, because you're a woman, because you're a girl, good girls do this, good girls, you know, don't do that. So that's sort of like how I came to learn about I think we lost her for a moment there. Dr. Saraswati is coming to us all the way from Jakarta, so we might have a few little bumps in the road. If we did lose her, we'll get her right back on in just a moment. But it's interesting to think about where she grew up. Yeah, I kind of lost you just for a moment there. We cut out. Oh, I apologize. That's okay. It happens. No big deal. Yeah. So I was just saying that there was, that we learn about the roles and the behavior without the word. But then when I went to college, we learned that there is the concept of gender and the definition of that, which is the social construction, right? Of what it means to embody or to have particular kinds of genitalia. And so that was when I began to learn, oh, when you have this kind of genitalia, then that's the kind of things that you have to do. That's the kind of things that you get to do and that you don't get to do. And that's kind of, you know, obviously seem unfair to me because like you get to do this things because you have that thing and you get to do that other thing because you have that other thing. But that's when I started to learn about, the concept of gender and as a social construction, meaning that you learned. It's not something that's inherent. It's because it's not because of the body, but because we learned from our society, from our parents, could be from our books, that this is what it means to be a good girl. This is what it means to be a good boy. And there's limit to what you can or cannot do. Yeah. In your experience, have you found like you've been fortunate to be able to travel around and get to go to many places? Have you have you seen some similarities and some differences in the way in which the genders are culturally treated or culturally defined? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the easiest example would be the United States. It is both similar and different in certain ways. Some of the similarities is obviously the way that the beauty culture is still in some ways. Maybe I don't want to use the word oppressive, but in some ways still dictates oppression. what women should and should not do. But at the same time, there are more options and choices and a little bit more of opportunities and possibilities at the same time in the United States. And so, for example, the beauty culture in the United States, there is still the standard that to be beautiful, women have to weigh a certain, you know, numbers, right? And so there's still the sort of like the diet culture as well in the United States, the way that it is also in Indonesia. But also within the United States, just like within Indonesia, there are this sort of like different expectations among like different races, different classes, you know, things like that. So it's not as straightforward or a simple like, oh, they're all the same here and they're all the same there. Because as you know, you've lived in Hawaii as well. And so they're like differences, obviously, between this, you know, in one state versus another state and even within the state. So that's that's what I'm trying to get at. So. So, yeah, absolutely. They're like so many differences, but also similarities. It's so hard to navigate like Hawaii. Do you think that as an individual and as a culture, our relationship with beauty changes as we get older? Absolutely. It changes with age. It changes with where you live. It changes with where you go to school. Like these things really shifted. And also with social media that that really as well. And I think and it's also true because like you said, right, it is both individual and social at the same time. What that means is that for some people. Because they age, they may have different experiences where then they learn that, you know what, I'm not going to follow this cultural expectations anymore. And actually, I was in Hawaii and I was part of this writing group. And some of the members were seven-year-old women and they wore stockings. in Hawaii and this beautiful hats and this amazing outfits. And, and I said, the first thing that was like one of our first meetings. And I said, wow, I just love how you dress. And then she said, I, you, when you're seven years old, you don't care about what people, you know, tell you what to wear and what not to wear. You have this liberties. And I was like, yes, you know? And so, so yeah, exactly. Like what you're saying with age, But to see these women in Hawaii wearing stockings and this beautiful, gorgeous hat that was just like celebrating, it gives me permission to wear kind of like whatever I want. And so I think that's what... what is so empowering about that is because when we have the courage to step out of our lines, then we give others permission for them to also be courageous and challenging the boundaries or these limitations that our society put on us of like what to wear or not to wear. Yeah, that's really well said. There's something not only beautiful, but dignifying about having the courage to stand out. But it's hard to stand out because you're going to get, you know, they call it like tall poppy syndrome, right? Like the tall poppy usually gets cut down first. And especially for women, like it seems like women get it on all sides. They get from men and other women. Like there's a lot of pressure there. Maybe you could speak to that a little bit. Yeah, absolutely. And I love this example as well that you brought up because what you said reminds me of if you're too tall, then you're not really good. But if you're too short, you're also not good. So it's either way. If you put on makeup, you're not good. If you don't put on makeup, you're not good. So that kind of expectation that is impossible for women because no matter what you do, you're never good enough. right but what I do see now with the social media uh because again social media is just a tool you know however way you use it so there are social media accounts that are there to empower women that are saying you know you're perfect as you are you can be as tall as you want to be or whatever you want to be whatever color makeup or no makeup or whatever that is but obviously there are also um other social media accounts that tell you oh you need to put on this kind of makeup I'm gonna teach you you know I'm gonna give you like this tutorial of like how to be beautiful and things like that so I think um it is it is very very important um like you said to to acknowledge, first and foremost, all of these contradicting messages that we receive from all sides, like you said. It's not just from media. It's not just from this external, out-there kind of influence, but by the little things that we say to our friends and each other. For example, Without us recognizing it, we give compliments to our friends who lost weight. We said, you look great. Did you just lose weight? This very seemingly innocent comments. might have perpetuated the fat shaming culture. Because again, as you know, people are born with different bones, with different structures, right? Some people have the tendency to be bigger than others. Some have the tendency to be skinnier than others. So But the thing about the way that we police each other's bodies, I think that's what is dangerous. And like I said, it's not out there. It's as simple as giving compliments to someone. And we want to be nice to people. We want them to know that we pay attention to them. And we want to say nice things. But sometimes these nice things... have underlying messages there, which means that if you gain weight, then you're not as pretty as you are now because you have just lost weight. I hope that makes sense. Yeah, it totally does. It's it's interesting to think about beauty and identity and pain. Sometimes there seems to be an issue with with health, though. Like, how do we separate someone from like, whoa, this person looks unhealthy from you don't want to say this person looks unhealthy. Because is there a way to navigate that bridge between like beauty, you know, unrealistic expectations and health? So the thing about health is that it's also quote unquote socially constructed because we are taught that health looks like this. Healthy skin looks like this and healthy body looks like this, but. The truth is, as you know, too, is that sometimes skinny bodies also have all these issues, right? Sometimes people are into jogging too much that they're like something wrong with their knees. They have knee problems, right? In other words, we just never know. We don't know when people have high cholesterol issues. Their bodies may look... like what we've been taught, this is what a healthy body looks like. And again, when we see bodies that are bigger than we're taught, that this is healthy body, then we assume that this body has a lot of um issues right but like I said um we have to understand that all of these ideas about what is healthy and what is not healthy um is taught as well um so we have to you know unless you're a doctor unless you have those test results unless you have like all of that then we probably are not the best judge right um of like telling people this and that and also um I co-wrote a piece with a friend of mine whose body is bigger than, again, like what people, including doctors, are being taught that these are normal, that these doctors literally told these friends of mine, unless you lose weight, I'm not going to give you this prescription to this thing like, you know. in one piece that we worked together is birth control, right? And so, Wow. So also have to also understand that doctors are humans too, right? They learn, and actually there was a piece about how medical textbooks teach future doctors, not anymore now, but back then in the nineteen eighties, nineteen nineties, that sperm is the one that's active and the egg is the one that's passive. And so the words that we use is also gendered. And then we know now that that doesn't work like that, that the egg is just as active as the sperm. And so we have to understand that when we learn, we also learn within the ideology, within the ideology of gender. And so we probably use words that may be problematic. Yeah. In different languages, too, there's like a masculine and a feminine and like that's really ingrained in everything that you see, everything that you say. And when you when you're speaking in those terms, aren't you just reinforcing that particular ideology in your own inner dialogue? Absolutely, absolutely. And so I am, because here in Indonesia, when we say the third person is dia, right? Dia does not have a gender. And so again, like you said, in different languages, when we think differently, and I know that in English it's like... What? There's no gender? Like, it's just third person? Like, it doesn't make any sense. But that's how Indonesian language is. Like, ia or dia, it has no gender. Like, you know what I mean? And so, yes, the language really does influence and shape our world and how we think about And when there are no gender for certain words, then, and that's actually, you know, we also don't have subject verb agreements. And that's why when my editor looks at my writing, they would look at that, you know, subject verbs, because I'm not, like I said, I was born and raised and I speak in this language first. And so I just don't automatically think that way. And so, again, we have to look at the language and be willing to accept how language shapes our thinking and how can then we unlearn or create languages or words that are more accommodating to people of different genders. Is there something that is beautiful in Jakarta that might not be beautiful in the Western world that you can think of? In terms of word or in terms of? Anything like maybe something that just expresses the idea of beauty that is foreign to the English language or that you grew up maybe thinking was beautiful in Jakarta. So actually, when I was writing my first book about beauty, I actually wrote about skin color. So it's the opposite. My answer is going to be the opposite of what you're asking. which is um the problem uh because you're asking me to come up with something you know what's beautiful here and what I'm going to answer is like the problem with the beauty standard here uh so I apologize for that but um but in my first book I talk about um how I look at the skin whitening cream ads in Indonesian magazines um actually cosmopolitan so you are you know um I'm sure familiar or even when you're like passing by the the groceries and you know the cashier they might have like those magazines the american version of cosmo um so I I look at the skin whitening ads in indonesian cosmo and I look at the skin tanning ads American Cosmo. And one of the things that I found fascinating is in Indonesian Cosmo, they actually use the English word white, like literally white, when they advertise this skin whitening cream ads. Not all of them, but some of them literally use the English word white, which I found fascinating. Why is that, right? Like, why do these ads want to evoke that kind of white? And in Indonesian language, there's obviously putih meaning white, but there's also this term kuning langsat, which is kind of like yellow, kind of like fruit yellow, which used to be used to describe women's skin color that is also beautiful. But that was not being used anymore in any of these advertisements. And they use either the word putti or literally the English word white. And so there I actually found it problematic because in American Cosmo, in none of the skin tanning ads that I analyze use the word brown your skin or blacken your skin. They use the word tanned. which has no racial connotations. And the other word that they use is actually bronze. And so that is, I found that very interesting. And the other thing that I also found fascinating is that in Indonesian skin whitening ads, none of them use the word, you can control the white that you want. And in the skin tanning ads in America, they use that, they use the word dial. So they say you can dial for the color you want. So what's that about? So, yeah, exactly. I apologize. Go ahead. Not at all. No, I'm just laughing. It's beautifully said. I never knew that. Like, carry on. It's both saddening, but also it brings a smile to my face to see the absurdity of it. Yeah, so because like when I talked about like why, like why is there this dial, right? And so it's because don't be don't don't don't don't fear like don't don't worry that you will get too dark because you have to control how dark you want your skin to be if you just want a little bit tan like you know just dial for this for this uh for this kind of like dark you don't want to get your skin too dark and so again I find this very interesting because there is no uh dial for white So they don't tell you like, OK, so you can like dial like this white. You don't want to be like white, like ghost or anything like that. There is no fear in that. And so, again, I think it's this kind of comparisons to me are so fascinating because. because they reveal the underlying ideology here which is not only gender but how gender intersects with other identity like color or race or class because again this idea of white in Indonesia as well obviously is tied to class in that how are you going to be able to afford to be indoor versus outdoor you know things like that as well And also in the U.S., it's this idea of tan. And usually the tanning ads only appear around summer versus the skin whitening cream is just always there throughout the year. So that's what I kind of like analyze in my first book. It's so sinister to think the way in which advertisement or big money to interest sort of play on the insecurities of all of us. Like you're not good enough. You're not beautiful enough. You're not strong enough. You're not smart enough. Like there's, it's, we just, it's so crazy to think how much money goes into playing on our insecurities. Isn't it crazy? Yeah, absolutely. And insecurities is one of those things that, you know, which comes first, the chicken or the egg? In other words, you know, is it the ads that create, you know, insecurities or they're like this insecurity first and then people create the products to address that, right? Because it is true, like you said, they... capitalize on people's insecurity. At the same time, advertisements are telling us the stories to be happy, right? So they're not only telling us, buy this product. Because obviously if they're just telling us, buy this product, we probably don't want to buy it per se. But they're telling us, if you buy this product, then you're going to be happy because you're going to get the attention from women or people are going to think that you're rich or people are going to think that you're smart or whatever that is. But there is the narrative there. And so I think... Again, why I'm so fascinated by advertisements is because like, what is the ideology? What is the underlying message that they're trying to tell us here of how to be happy? Because it's not just about having the, you know, lighter skin or things like that, but What is the happiness that they're trying to offer there? And what's interesting in the skin whitening ads that I study, for example, some of them have like a briefcase on the ads. And the way that the ads work is by transfer of meanings. In other words, if we see a dove, you know, in an ad. What does that dove mean? Right. And so it's, you know, we learn through the transfer of meanings. And so in the skin whitening ads, if we see a briefcase, like, what does that mean in terms of if you have lighter skin, then you get a job and that, you know, you have more money or things like that. So that's what, again, what I find fascinating. It's how they tell you how to be happy. And like you said, you're not going to be happy with only this car. You're going to be happier if you have that car. And you know what? I study advertisements. And still to this day, when I scroll through those social media, whatever, and I'm like, oh, actually, I need that. Yeah. like dress, like as they would advertise it, you don't need all these other things. You just need this one dress to travel. And like, yeah, I travel most of the time and I need that one dress. I don't need like hundreds of other dresses. So again, I study ads, but I still am under, you know, the influence of these ads that tell you, if you buy this thing, your life is going to be better because you don't have to worry about like, Bringing like ten different outfits. You can just have this one outfit that you can turn into eight different ways. You know, things like that. And I did buy those. Two of them. Yeah. It's almost impossible to not at least be... Taken aback a little bit by advertising. It's so good. And there's so much money that goes into it that that commodifies the human spirit, which brings us to our first question we have coming in right here. It says in a society that commodifies both suffering and beauty, how do we reclaim the narrative of pain without allowing it to become a spectacle? Oh my gosh, this is an amazing, amazing question. There are like two things that you're bringing up here is that one, pain is spectacle, right? In other words, how can, even like pain then becomes commodified. Pain has value when it becomes a spectacle, when people can see that, when people are like being wowed by it. In other words, if pain is, It's just on its own and it's not being turned into a spectacle. It may not have values in itself. Right. So that's the first part of it. And especially on social media these days. So if you are just posting things, just like you said, I'm sad. Like how many people are going to respond to that? But if you are turning that sadness into a spectacle by way of certain videos that really get at that emotion or by the caption that you have. Right. Then you'll get either more likes or, you know, that will get more shares and things like that. So pain and its own. will have no value in this, like you said, society that would want to capitalize that. So it has to be turned into a spectacle. That's the first thing. But the second part that I really love about your question is that we're not... passive consumers, right? So how can we reclaim this? In my book, I talk about so many different ways, but they're like four things that I talk about in my latest book, Scarred. The first thing is about how can we perceive differently? So it's about the mind. So when we are in pain, well, first of all, I have to say that pain is the most efficient tool to have other people submit to our power. Right. What does that mean? That means that's why bullies are always trying to hurt you. Right. Because they want you to be hurt by what they said, what they did, because then it's easier for them to control you when you're in pain or when you feel defeated. Does that make sense? Right. So pain, very efficient tool to have people. do whatever we want them to do, right? So the first thing that we want to think about when we are in pain, and this has become my mantra, is how can I perceive differently? And when I say differently, I'm not saying positive thinking, because that's what our culture has taught us, and that's what I've been practicing myself as well, but that's not enough. Why is it not enough? I'm going to give you an example. So What we talked about earlier, let's have an example of beauty, right? So our culture or the advertisements tell us, you know, you're not pretty, right? And when we don't feel pretty, then like you said, we feel insecure. We don't feel good about our body. You know, we're not feeling good. And sometimes we feel hurt when someone tells us you're ugly, right? Someone did tell us, you know, said that to me more than once, obviously. And so and I was like, that hurt, especially when I was a little kid. Right. We grew up in a culture that values women's beauty. And then as a little kid, I was told that constantly. And that hurt. And, you know, I did have body image issue. I did have salvestine issues and stuff like that. Right. So what I mean by how can I perceive differently is not to say I am beautiful. You know, that's not it. That's not how we reclaim our power. I mean, OK, as a first step. Sure. But the thing about positive thinking is that it just change our own mind. We don't change the culture that teach us this is what beautiful looks like, that you should look like that, that you should have light skin. Does that make sense? Right. So when I say we have to perceive differently, what I mean is we have to first ask ourselves, oh, okay. Who told us that this is like not beautiful? So we have to question the culture first and then we have to try to challenge that culture, right? So that's how we reclaim that pain or that power is by refusing to be hurt when someone purposefully tell us Or would someone purposefully tell us something that may be hurtful for us? Just like the advertisements, maybe they don't purposefully try to make us feel insecure. I mean, I don't know. But the point is we feel hurt, we feel insecure, right? So the first thing is to challenge that culture and not just changing how we think, but also the culture, right? So that's the first thing. How can we perceive differently? And second of all, how can we use our body to transcend that pain. And what I mean by that is that a lot of the time we use language, we use words. Like the first thing that I also said to my friends is that when they're sad, that is, do you want to talk about it? Right? And so great. I also do that. I also go to therapy. I also use words, right? But the thing about words is that it limits how we can feel and how we're supposed to feel. Sometimes there are so many emotions that we repress, that we're buried under, that we can't just kind of like dig it up by keep talking about it because it's already buried in our bodies. So one of the things that we want to do is to bypass that language. And I talk about there are so many techniques about like how to work with the body. But one of the things that I talk about in my in my book is I did this. It's called no mind therapy. And I did this meditation in Nepal where they tell you. Like, specifically, you just say things like gibberish, like, ah, you know, things like that. And whenever there's a story that came to your mind, then you have to drop the story, drop the story, right? Because sometimes the story, we get kind of like... we go around and around and around and around in the story. And we sometimes kind of just like feel sorry for ourself or feel sorry for the person, but we don't really get into the feeling. And then when we work with the body, then the feeling sort of like, first of all, it resurfaces on its own. And then when we keep working with the body without the story, then we're able to transcend that pain. We're able to transcend whatever emotion that's buried within ourselves. So that's the second thing. So the first thing is working with the language, working with the mind. But then the next step is to, you know, after working with the mind to even bypass that and work with the body. So that's the second thing. The third thing too, this is very important in terms of the question, like how can we reclaim our pain? How can we reclaim our power is in my book, I talk about the need to practice what I call feminist enchantment in our daily lives. So enchantment or this feeling of enchanted is that moment of When you, you know, in my book, I talked about the Northern Lights, but, you know, I live in Hawaii and I have to honestly say that I love sunsets. Every day, I would try to make the time to see the sunset, even when there's no sunset. And by that, I mean, there's like cloudy days, whatever. wow, the beauty of the sunset when there's no sun, or sometimes the beauty of the sunset when it's perfectly orange, sometimes it's red and it's beautiful and it's just perfectly round. Like every day delivers something different. But the moment of enchantment is that moment when you're just taken out of your body, out of like this moment where you are. And then you're just like enchanted, enchanted. You forgot about the pain. You forgot about what people told you. Like you were not a good worker today, whatever that is. You just see that and you're like, Right. But so so that's the enchantment part. But why did I say feminist? Why is it important to like add the word feminist to the word enchantment? Because my goal here is not just feminism. Let's escape. Let's escape. Let's forget about the problems and then let's be enchanted. No, feminism is about social justice, right? I have to clarify that feminism is no longer just about women's liberation. Maybe in the But in the twenty first century, feminism is about social justice. It's about the well-being for all people of all races, gender, nationalities and all that kind of stuff. Right. And so what I mean about feminist enchantment is how can we be enchanted so that we are taken out of this world? But we forget about how we are taught of like how to live. All of these limitations that they tell us how to live our lives and how can we create a new world, right? And how can we even re-engage with our pain in a different way, right? And that's what I mean is that, yes. We live with pain. The pain is there. It's not about just forgetting about the pain, but about, okay, we're taken out of our own body, but then we come back to our body and then how can we be reacquainted with our pain, right? And so this leads us to number four, which is about what I call emotional contract. Emotional contract is important because for me, this is the answer to the limitation of self-love and self-help. I'm all about self-love, but again, if we only love ourself, then what about the others, right? So emotional contract, it's about what are the programs and policies that our workplace have to assure the well-being of all workers? What are the programs and the policies that our government may have so that all people may have access to well-being? Because self-love, sometimes it could be interpreted as, well, why don't you get a massage today? Take care of yourself. What I'm talking about is how can everybody, right, no matter whether they have money or not, have access to massages. Does that make sense? And so if you say that we need to take care of ourselves, if we need to do this self-care, then how can we ensure that everybody can do self-care? Not just those people who have access to health insurance, not just those people who have access to membership programs, to this club or to that health club or to this massage place and stuff like that. So that's another thing about how can we reclaim pain? And the third and the fourth part is about we can't just take care of our own pain. We have to take care of each other's pain. We have to take care of the pain that is caused by the structure, that is caused by the societal sort of pressure, right? Because the thing about self-care and self-whatever is that we assume that this is individual problem. So the solution is at individual level, right? But in my book, I talk about the pain that we feel may not only be personal, but it could be social or cultural or political. And therefore, if it is not only personal, then we cannot only look at personal or individual solutions, right? to reclaim the pain. We have to take care of each other pain. So those are the four sort of things that I talk about or four practices that I talk about in my book in terms of how can we live with pain in a way that is more life nourishing for us or life sustaining for us. Because The premise of my book is that the pain is here and we need pain. Pain is a way for us to know that that's not good for us, right? It's like when we're cooking and we touch the stove or we touch the fire or something and it feels painful and we need to like, okay, okay, like take our hands off the stove. If we don't feel pain, then you're gonna just like have your hand right there, right? So we need pain. But the thing is, like, how can we live with pain in a way that still makes us feel supported? And like by that example, the fourth example of the emotional contract, well, when we have good health insurance, when we have good community who will be there for us when we can't, you know, go to work and we can't even cook our own meals and stuff like that, that there is something or somebody that will take care of us. Then it's like, oh, yeah, I'm in pain, just like that person in pain. But, you know, when I have support, then I feel like I can live with this pain. And that's when you feel more powerful with your pain or living with pain. Yeah, that's a great answer. Thank you for breaking it down that way. I like the four points right there. They're very helpful. On some level, I... It's good though. It's informative and that's how it should be. I want people listening to see that there are things you can do and also to feel the depth of the research that you've done because you've written extensively and you've seen some amazing things and you've spoken to and lived through some of your own pain. On some level, I can't help but think about generational pain when you talk about that. Sometimes there is no support for generational pain. What advice or maybe you could speak on the idea of generational trauma? Absolutely. This is a very, very important and relatively new kind of concept. And obviously people have talked about it, but it's becoming more and more sort of like mainstream in some ways, or people on social media talk about it. The generational trauma that people talk about is when we as individual, as the daughter, let's say of immigrants or people who have been enslaved, may not experience that experience themselves, but that it is being carried through our DNAs, through like how we experience that, how we feel that in the womb of, you know, when we were still inside the womb of our mother. So, and how do we then, you know, first of all, recognize it? And so like in the book, I actually have one of these questions at the end and in the closing chapter, which is, first of all, we also need to ask whose pain have we been carrying, right? Because sometimes we don't realize, and even in my book, I talk about this generational trauma that I experienced as well, that sometimes I feel like, wait a minute, wait a minute, like I feel sad right now, but whose sadness am I carrying, right? So to be able to even identify that, that's the first step, right? To then identify, bring it to the table or even be curious about pain. Because like one of the things I talk about in my book is that a lot of the time or like in our culture, we're being taught to repress it, to manage it, to avoid it, right? So like pain is something that it's, Like, no, go away, right? In my book, I'm talking about we need that. This is part of our system. So I invite... One of the things I want to do with this book is that to invite the readers to be curious, to be playful with the pain that they have. So in other words, if pain is this... person, do we actually know this person? Do we actually know this pain that we're carrying in our body? Like, what does it like? What does our pain like? Because what my pain likes is obviously probably going to be different from what your pain likes. What does my pain like to eat, right? What are the food that will invite the pain to hang out with me? What are the food that the pain hates and therefore they're like, okay, I'm not going to hang out with you tonight, right? And so those are some of the things. And so when I think of pain that way, I became curious about it. And then how can I relate to pain in that sense? Then the answer to in terms of like, how can we live with pain in a way that is life sustaining for me will be different from the way that how you would feel supported by your pain, right? And so in other words, that's why the book is more of a... invitation rather than these are the four ways that you need to do. Not at all. And I actually said throughout the book, I said, these are the four things that I experienced that were helping for me. But what about you? What is your own journey? What is your own exploration with your own pain? And what are the things that, you know, that they're trying to tell you and that we're not listening? I have never, ever in my life heard that sort of metaphor, like I'm making food for the pain. What kind is it like? That's so beautifully done. Thank you for that. That's amazing. Do you often use that particular strategy to solve problems in life? It's almost like a third person perspective or personifying these emotions on something. Where did you learn that? And do you do that often in other ways when you look at problems? So I think because, well, first of all, I always talk about food because I love food. What is the pain like to eat? Yeah. It's brilliant. But the thing, I apologize. Sorry. No worries. But one thing that I that I like to do because I'm an academic and I have to say that this book, that all of the books that I've written so far, except for the one that I'm finishing right now, they all have been academic. But here's the thing. Even though I use big words. even though I use theories and like the emotional contract and feminist enchantment and all of those things in my books, I always do two things. One, I define it. So I always say, this is what I mean when I say feminist enchantment, this is what I mean. That's one. And second, I use examples. And the examples always come from real life, like what you're saying about this, like personify it or like that. Because the thing is, I trust the readers. I trust the readers that they're smart, that they're willing to read, and that they're willing to take the time to understand, oh, that's what you mean. Because the thing about concept is, It's language, right? Like what we talked about earlier, language shapes and helps how we think about something. So I don't just create words for the sake of it. I need to call it something, right? Because when we call it, then we can like, this is what it is. We can identify it. We can understand its character and all of that, right? Like what you said, personify it again. And so that's what I try to do in all of my works is even though I use big words because I'm an academic, I'm a theorist, right? I also have to define it and use examples. And so thank you for seeing that, seeing the strategy that I use and how I approach theory. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's this sort of tapestry of symbolism and metaphor and analogy that comes together to paint a perspective without shame and guilt. And I think that's what people need in order to really discover some of these problems. All of these things make me think of... like ritual or rites of passage and it seems to me at least in the western world we're almost devoid of that especially with women like my my wife will get together sometimes with her mom and her aunties and the little cousins and to me I watch them and I'm like they're they're just telling these amazing stories between each other and it's really like it kind of gives me goosebumps I'm super stoked to see it like I my wife always feels better after it and they're telling these stories some of them heartwarming some of them heart-wrenching But it seems on some level we're devoid of that in the Western world. Do you think maybe we are? Maybe that's one thing we can learn or relearn from maybe indigenous people or just from healthier societies in the Western world. What do you think? So I think is that we do like every culture and I'd like to think that that I think if you want to use like American, there is no such thing as like American per se, right? Because Americans, like you said, though, you know, consists of like all of these different races and, you know, and cultures already. And so I think it's about, like you said, the willingness to look at like the practices that people around us, or like you said, wife and her mothers, right? And so the people around us, but also the history, Because when we read history, when we understand all of these different things, like you said, that people practice, even in the United States, even in different countries and all of that, there's always something there. Because I do know and think and believe that That we are such like creative human beings, wherever we are, we create things, we create, you know, cultures, rituals, and we're constantly doing that, including social media, right? That's another... culture that we're creating and we keep figuring out how to be in this culture. People always, the first thing that they do is always criticize that. In other words, oh, there's radio, oh, oh, oh, you know, oh, there's television, oh, oh, oh, oh, and then there's social media, oh, oh, oh, it's like this sort of like panic. And now it's the AI, right? Like, oh, oh, oh, like what? So, but it's good, right? That's how we kind of like evolve, how we learn as culture, right? And so we're constantly in the making and remaking, learning and unlearning of rituals and practices. And so if we only want to look and honor whatever it is that we create and be willing, and again, not cultural appropriation, though, because sometimes that's like, you know, that's so annoying. But... to honor another's culture? And then can we, you know, learn from you and take part? Because I think if there is that sort of like the honoring, and not just about exploiting, because a lot of the time, it's like, okay, I learned this, you know, yoga, or I learned this um healing from the hawaiian you know culture and then and then you create your own workshop and teaching people and and what did you give back to the communities where you learn from and did you really learn or did you take like three workshops and now you're suddenly the expert of that other culture right um so just to be clear I'm not at all about if you are of that culture then you can you know practice that culture not Not at all. Not at all. Because I think it's about sharing. And if we are close, like I'm not going to share my culture. You're not going to share your culture. How are we going to learn? Like you said, right? So I'm not at all about that. But we have to learn in a way that honors the culture, not just like a quick, you know, three workshops and we're the expert. And then suddenly we become the guru of that culture and not giving back the community. I mean, that's now that's appropriation, which, you know, I'd like. to use a different word because appropriation seems very, very subtle versus like stealing, like cultural stealing. Cause you really like stealing or taking something that's not yours. And then you like capitalize on it just to be clear on that. But yeah. Yeah. It's, it's fascinating to me. I, sometimes I wonder like, Like maybe a good question that everybody should start off with that might give you a good idea of who they are is what's your relationship with like your mom? Because sometimes I feel like so much of our relationships in life are that relationship we have with our mom. Is that too crazy to think about? Like what's the relationship with your mom, Dr. Ayu? Like is that something worth talking about? Like I feel like it is. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We also have to recognize that not everybody have moms, right? Yeah. Kids have two dads. Sometimes kids don't have parents and stuff like that. But in the case that they do, like you said, I think it's always good to... ask right to to be curious and I think in my book I talk about feminist enchantment one of the characteristics of enchantment is the willingness to be open uh and to be playful uh because that's when we get to learn and and and this is like what you're saying like we want to be curious yeah about our mind about our relationship with our mothers, like who are they, where they come from, like what are the practices that they do, what are their shame, what are their dreams, what are, you know, like all of that. So when we're open and playful and curious about everything around us, we can then be enchanted by that. Because otherwise we're like, well, I know this, I know that. Then there's nothing to learn. There's nothing for others to learn. So, yeah, absolutely. We want to be curious, want to be wanting to know about relationships with the women in our lives. Like you said, it could be mothers, it could be aunties, it could be other people. Absolutely. We got another question coming in. It says, in seeing beauty, sensing race, you explore transnational ideals of beauty. Do you think our pursuit of beauty is inherently tied to colonial or capitalist ideologies, or is there a space for beauty that transcends power structures? So the book, Saying Beauty, Sensing Race, actually begins with pre-colonial period. And that was exactly one of the argument that I was trying to challenge in the field. So other studies at the time, again, that book was published in two thousand thirteen. But that's that's been a while now. But at the time, most scholars look at colonialism. as the root cause of why people want to look white or be white or have you know white skin or light skin and then I thought about it again being curious is it really right and so there I was trying to find evidence because again as scholars we can't just like oh you know, before that there's already like desire for light skin. You can't, you have to have evidence. So I thought hard about like, how can I find something that has evidence? And so I did find an evidence in the Indian. So again, it's transnational, meaning ideas that come from other countries or other places. So in that period, the pre-colonial period, so prior to Dutch colonialism in Java, in Indonesia at the time, I found that there was already a desire or in terms of the beauty standard in pre-colonial Java, it was already light or bright skin. prior to colonialism. And the evidence that I had was the epic poem of Ramayana that came partly, you know, from India, and then it became part of the the Japanese sort of like, you know, culture as well, that they would use metaphors like the full moon, they would use the white marbles, the white porcelain. So, so That was very interesting that I found that was even prior to colonialism, there was already desire, or again, I should say the standard of beauty for women at the time was already described with metaphors that use bright or light skin. However, that the skin color was not yet overlapped with race. So like I said, they use moon, they use this, they use that, that's not racialized yet. It is true that after colonialism, and then there's this sort of like the modern notion of race, that then we begin to see colorism and racism become sort of like overlapped. So it's not just about the white or light skin, not just about the full moon, but we actually see there are like drawings of Dutch women as embodying the standard of beauty. And then when Japanese came to colonize Indonesia, again, there's a shift. They still idealize white skin or light skin, but this time it's Japanese women, light skin or white skin. So there was like all this sort of like shifts. But yeah, but in terms of the beauty culture, so the answer to that, it's not always tied to colonialism or capitalism in this sense. Because again, as we know in Ramayana, that was prior to capitalism. But the thing about beauty is... Because I know in social media, as we mentioned earlier, people then propose new standards of beauty. So women don't have to be, like, white, but they can be, like, of different, you know, skin shades or color or body shapes and things like that. But what I am proposing is maybe we should challenge that beauty culture, right? Like, the beauty or, like, this idea that... women need to be beautiful or like men need to be beautiful or whatever gender you are, need to be beautiful. Because for as long as there is that standard of beauty, it may not be light skin anymore. It may not be skinny anymore. But for as long as there is that standard, that standard can always be, like you said, capitalize on or be used to oppress women. people or be used to demand people that you spend this amount of time to look a certain way. So I think that's what we have to challenge is the beauty standard itself. We need to free yourself from, there is this term, again, term is very helpful, that is lookism, right? That we actually discriminate people, you know, based on their looks. But people don't really take this seriously because, you know, people obviously understand racism is bad, sexism is bad, but people don't really get that, you know, lookism is actually also, you know, out there and bad. And think about jobs, like certain jobs that require you to look attractive. And they're like certain jobs, like being a model, right? That you have to have a certain, yeah. And then if you're a model, you can be super rich, right? So again- What about attraction though like sometimes when you think of the standard of beauty like there is incredible like Sufi poetry and songs written about the most beautiful person in the world like we don't want to take that away though right on some level like I can understand how unrealistic standards how that can be but. There are some people that are just so beautiful. You're like, whoa, let me write a song for this person, try to get their attention. And I can realize that might be aggravating, but what about attraction and true beautiful people? It's probably pretty awesome to be one of those people. Well, the thing is, why does beauty is embodied by these bodies and not these bodies? Right. So that's the first thing is like, why can't that person be beautiful or like we think of that person as beautiful? Because here's the thing, because apparently we thought, right, like emotions, what we feel is natural. Right. But the thing is, in my first book, I actually talk about that. And not only me, but other scholars of emotions have also talked about this, that there is this, you know, the education of desire, meaning that we think our desire is just ours, but no, we are educated. We are taught that we want this kinds of bodies, you know, to desire. We want to desire this kind of bodies and not that body. And then also how power works through emotions. I'm going to say that one more time, that power works through emotions. In other words, again, sometimes we feel our emotions are just... Natural. We feel what we feel. But then when we think about and I like to ask this question in the audience when I gave a talk is that when there is a heterosexual couple, a mother and a father, and there is like a five month old baby that kept crying, that like, you know, that doesn't stop crying, like who would feel more guilty about picking up that baby? And the audience usually say the mother, right? And so I said, well, if the mother feels more guilty about picking up the baby, then there's something, something is going on there, right? And usually more than one person in the audience said, you know, answered the question, which means, like I said, there is this kind of like things that we learn that as women, as mothers, we are taught things. to feel guilty. So that feeling of guilt is no longer just something that's natural, but something that we learn because of our gender. So it's, again, very important to ask this desire. We may think that When somebody passes by in front of us, we're like, ooh, that person's hot, you know, and we want different things. But then we want to ask, is this desire something that we're also taught? Because again, like I said, it may feel natural and normal or feel very personal. Or people have like, that's your type, right? So it's like very individual. But again, is it something that is just that? Or is it something that... that we actually learned, that our society taught us. This is what beautiful looks like. And that's what, you know, not beautiful look like. Because if you think about it, or like if you look at the beauty pageants, right? And even though that they are being embodied by people of different races now, but there's still this kind of the archetype, right? Of body shape, of like facial features of those who win year after year after year. Yeah. I think like... When we think of types, too, I can't help but think of, like, pheromones and, like, you know, someone might be very attractive to me that might not be attractive to somebody else. Like, there's some definite biology in there, right, when we think about beauty? Definitely, definitely. And there is actually a book I'm trying to remember. I think it's called The Survival of the Prettiest, which is, again, very interesting. in terms of it's related to exactly what you're saying, that there is this, the biology aspect of it, which is the argument of, in that book, like some of the arguments that they were circulating is this idea that when we look at people with clear skin, and we desire that skin, it's because it, in our brain, we think that Those skin represents healthy skin. And therefore, as humans or the, you know, kind of like the animals that we are and we want to ensure that we that we have kids that are healthy, we tend to choose partners that look healthy to us. So that's some of the arguments that the book is making is that we tend to prefer certain like bodies and stuff like that because in our head, in our brain, they're registered as healthy bodies, right? But that's, again, we need to question that, right? Because does that mean people who have disabled or disability are just not healthy and therefore they should not procreate? Does that make sense, right? Because there are problems in that. So what I am saying is that, sure, It is biology. It is also, you know, societal sort of like, you know, standard and stuff like that expectation. It is nature. Like you said, there's something that when we taste like if I give you chocolate, you may not like it. Like there's something in your tongue. There's something in your body, your biology. Right. You may not like it. Right. So there is nature to that, but there's also nurture. In other words, if I give you kale flavor ice cream, you may not like it, but you may not like it because you've never been exposed to that. right? They have like basil ice cream, which I love. But you know, like, what, what, like, is there like oregano? Oregano? Or is there like thyme? Is there like, what, what's out there? Right? And so it's both nurture and nature at the same time. It may be like something that I probably prefer vanilla versus, you know, strawberries. Obviously, those matter as well. Absolutely. But at the same time, we should also, that's why I said, you know, like, We should just pause and question that and ask, you know, like, you know, what's going on here. Right. And so because it is both nature and nurture, for sure. Absolutely. What about like interracial relationships? Like, it seems like we've sort of moved the needle on that. That seems to be more accepted than it has in the past. But I don't know. I think that there's something beautiful about that in my own experience. mind. But what do you think about interracial beauty standards in between races? So the thing about interracial relationships, it was literally illegal, right? In the United States. And so obviously when we talk about like nurture in terms of the social sort of expressions of that, like it was not even allowed, right? And so we also have to look at that and understand, okay, so it wasn't allowed and, you know, how acceptable is, Is that even now, like you said, you know, we we have been more open to that. But a lot of the time people like parents and I hear this from my own students who say, you know what? My own parents would say, well, as friends, that's OK. But as your partner. They're not OK. And obviously, interracial relationship was obviously deemed inappropriate or illegal in some ways because of the fear of miscegenation. Like this idea, right, like this, this like literally like this is very problematic issue. And, you know, this like you said, the mixing of different races and that idea is really, that fear is really what drives this sort of like the laws that prohibit these kinds of relationships. And that is really, really problematic. Absolutely. Yeah. How are you doing on time? Are you okay on time? Yeah. Okay. I know it's late, but I got... One, one, one. One a.m. One a.m. Okay. Fantastic. I got a few questions that are stacking up here. That's why I wanted to make sure. This one says, if pain could speak, what do you imagine it would say to the world right now? What would it whisper to you? I think the thing is, The pain of each person will tell a different story. And actually in the book, there is this line that I said, pain is the way for the body to pitch its stories to us. What we do with it determines the quality of life that we have. So remember, pain is the way for the body to pitch its story to us. So like they're trying to tell us something. So it would obviously, depending on like, you know, the person that you are, the condition or the time, it will be different, like different times and different people that you interact with, right? But to me, pain really is kind of like that thing that that alarm system. And that's why I said, like, it will tell you different things at different time. Like that stove example, it will tell you, well, take your take your hand off the stove. Or if you feel painful when you surround yourself with these kind of people, then it will tell you, stop hanging out with this person. Right. And so, again, it will tell you different stories of the condition of the body, of your relationship, depending on the time and where you are in your life at that time. It's a very kind of like, what do you call it? Like it's a smart, intelligent system that will help you kind of like guide your way in some way through life. Yeah, to see it as a messenger to be listened to instead of something to run away from or push away, it's so helpful. It's trying to help you, right? Like the pain is there for a reason. It's trying to help you move through it. Yeah. Can a concept like feminism survive without being tied to place and culture? Or does it need a kind of geographical grounding to stay authentic? So I think with feminism, a lot of the time feminism is being pushed away, including in Indonesia, because of its Western connotations, right? And so for me, this idea of like feminism, again, when we think about word, like what we talked about earlier, It's important to have a word for something so that when we talk about this thing, we can call it and we can identify with it or so that I can say like, this is what I'm working toward. Is that what you're working toward? This thing called this, you know, feminism. In other words, for me, feminism can be plastic enough so that it can be molded to different locales. But it's also robust enough so that people understand what that is. In other words, when people hear the word feminism, they have an idea of what that is. But then each culture can then provide meanings to it. Like I said before, feminism is only about women's liberation movement, right? So it's very specific to women. But then people started... you know, asking about, well, which women are you talking about? Are you talking about white women? Are you talking about middle class women? Are you talking about rich women? Which women are you talking about? And then after that, it's like, you know what, it's not just women who are being oppressed. When we talk about black men, right, when we talk about people of different genders, when we talk about trans people, like, and then they don't, then we can't just close our eyes and just like, oh, it's all about women. It's just about women. We cannot. We cannot, right? Because then you become the oppressor. You're also now, you know, I only want to care about this and not that. So I think we need feminism. We need the concept. as a concept that we kind of understand what that is, but then it can be plastic enough so that, you know, throughout different historical periods or geographical context that it can be molded specific to that location or time period. Yeah, I like that. Do you, It makes me wonder if there's some internal struggles, much like any sort of cause or any sort of idea that begins to grow tends to fracture sometimes. And sometimes it's those internal structures that can cause it to maybe not have as sharp or robust edges as needed. Do you see that fracture happening sometimes in the world of feminism? Always, always, always. And this is, I think... I like bell hooks wording. And again, words always matter. And she said, rather than say, I am a feminist, we will, we want to say, I advocate feminism because the difference is when you say I am, then it becomes your identity. Then like, if you are feminist, then what is feminist? Like what, what do you do as feminists? Do you eat meat? Do you sleep only with women? What do you do as feminists? Because I am. This is who I am and what I do and things like that. But if I say I advocate an idea, then we can work towards it. Because feminism, again, but even that idea, like I said, feminism, like some people say feminism is this, and some people still to this day say feminism is only for cis women. You know, like there's so many different ideas that are, you know, obviously problematic, even within the movements and even within the movements within just different countries. Oh, my. But anyways, but at least when we say I advocate feminism, the idea or the ideology, then we can work towards something. Because if I say, OK, it's not about whether I am or whether I eat this or I sleep with this. It's not about that. But we want to advocate this idea. And the idea is about equality. The idea is about social justice. Are you advocating that or not? Right. And so at least it's like one level up in terms of, OK, what about your commitment to this? Right. The idea, the ideology or the movement rather than who I am. Because then the question is, can men be feminist? It's like, OK, no, that's not the question. The question is, like, are you feminist? a cis man or a trans man or non-binary, do you advocate feminism? Does that make sense? Like that's totally different because it's not about who you are and what you can be or what you cannot be. But what do you advocate? What do you want this world to look like? Yeah, I like that. It's a good definition. I think it helps lay the foundation for a more robust struggle or a more robust vision of what can be possible. How do you reconcile Western feminist ideas with the deeply rooted philosophies and practices of non-Western cultures? That's a big question that probably needs to be answered for forty bucks. Because that's like, so big. And also throughout historical periods, they change and shift as well, right? And also the non-Western, like which non-Western are we talking about? Just Indonesia? Are we talking, because that's the country that I study, or are you talking about like different, because Indonesian versus Japanese feminism is very different versus Korean, which I don't study, right? So I only know about sort of like Indonesian and only within the specific areas that I study. But I think what is important is again, to go back to like, what is the idea? What are you advocating? in that country, in this country, in whatever that country is? Are you advocating so that all genders can have access to good education? And again, what is good education? Right. And so it's really about sort of like being clear about what we want in terms of, again, the world that we want to envision and live in. And also, I think what we still need to do, and this is kind of like a homework for a lot of people everywhere, is your idea is going to be different from mine. Even when we're, even here in Indonesia, there's so many different feminism, feminisms, right? And so how do we, don't just get bogged down by, well, it has to be like this. And then the other person like, no, it has to be like that. And so it's just that sort of like struggle within the movement and we don't get to move beyond that. And so I think that's a big lesson to learn is to really understand Learn how to. Yeah, I mean, your vision and my vision may not be exactly the same, but where can we work together and toward? Because that's the hardest thing is when we the idea is, yeah, social justice. We want equality and all of that. But then when we try to operationalize it, what does it look like in terms of curriculum, in terms of bathrooms, in terms of like so many, you know, pragmatic like things that we actually do day in, day out? That's when people have different ideas. And that's when we like fight more than we work together, I feel. Yeah. Yeah, it's well said. If someone were like, first off, it's Thanksgiving and Christmas, it'd be a great idea for people to go to the show notes and buy your book. It's the perfect time to do that. And but let's say someone buys your book. Like what what do you hope people take away when they read your newest book? So in my latest book, Scarred, A Feminist Journey Through Pain, I invite the readers to live with their pain differently in a way that is more life sustaining and more enchanting for them. And so I give them four practices that I practice that I did and sometimes do, sometimes don't. Sometimes I forget that I gave advice about how to live with pain differently. But I invite them to take on their own journey. And if they need some ideas, then obviously they're like ideas in my book. But at least I want them to get to know their own pain and to live with it in a way that they feel. supported, that I can do this, that I can live with this in a way that feels good to them. So even though the pain is there and will always be there, because sometimes emotional pain, sometimes it's physical pain, and sometimes it's financial pain, like all kinds of pain. And sometimes they just like cycle through, but even if they're there, how can we live with it differently? It's such a beautiful message. And Dr. Ayu, you've been really gracious with your time today. Thank you so much for spending some time with us. And I really admire the heartfelt message. I think that you have laid out in so many ways, some unique ways to view pain and live with it. And I hope people within the sound of my voice will go down to the show notes and reach out to you and they have some questions or they can go to your website or check out the book. But before we land the plane, would you be so kind as to tell people where they can find you, what you have coming up and what you're excited about? Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you again so much for allowing me the space to like converse with you and talk with you and with the, with the listeners. So my website is drsaraswati.com. So it's D R and my last name is S A R A S W A T I.com. So it's drsaraswati.com. So my website and people can, there are like links to my books and everything like that. And the book that I'm working on right now that I'm finishing is about how we can live with grief differently. So I consider this, you know, I think I'm that pain lady. I'm like fascinated by the pain, by the grief, because so I think when people try to move away from it, I actually won't. you know, walk toward it. And I want to learn more about the grief, about the pain and all of that. So anyway, thank you again. So, so much everyone for engaging in this conversation with us today. Thank you so much. Well, hang on briefly afterwards, Dr. Ayo to everybody within the sound of my voice. Thank you so much for participating. Go down to the show notes, check out the book and that's all we got. Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you have a beautiful day. Aloha. Aloha.