Ladies and gentlemen, it's Friday. We made it. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back. I have a question for everybody today. Are you listening right now? Listen up everybody. Let me ask you this. What happens when the rigor of neuroscience meets the mysticism of ancient yogic traditions? My guest today, Lyubov Yusufova, stands at the fascinating crossroads of science and spirituality, embodying a rare synthesis of these two worlds, a doctor of psychology candidate at the California Institute of Integral Studies, an institution renowned for bridging Eastern and Western wisdom, Lubav's journey is as groundbreaking as it is profound. Her academic roots run deep with studies at NYU and Columbia University in behavioral neuroscience. Yet it was a transpersonal experience in Botswana that shattered the confines of traditional scientific inquiry, propelling her into the uncharted territory of mystical states of consciousness. This path led her to a Kriya Yoga ashram, where she was initiated into an ancient practice designed to awaken the Kundalini and dissolve the veil of ego, what Rumi poetically describes as the barrier between humans and the divine. Lubav's groundbreaking research on the psychotherapeutic mechanisms of these mystical states has been presented at institutions like Harvard Medical School and the International Science of Consciousness Conference. As a highly intuitive healer, she bridges clinical psychology, ceremonial plant medicine, and mindfulness traditions redefining the landscape of modern mental health. Today, we delve into her remarkable journey, a journey of breath, ego dissolution, and the transformative power of consciousness. Lubav, thank you so much for being here today. How are you? I'm wonderful, George. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited that you are here. You and I got to have a brief discussion at the psilocybin San Francisco conference not too long ago, put on by the incredible Malika. It was a great conference. I'm stoked to see you there. But this is an opportunity for us to go a little bit deeper and just do that. So I'm going to just jump right in right here. I've been thinking about this for a little while, and I have one question to lead off. I know that there's some questions stacking up in the chat out here, but I will just start off with this one right here. And that is what initially drew you to the intersection of psychology and mysticism? Was there like a pivotal moment that shifted your perspective? Yeah. Well, it was definitely my experiences at the ashram because I mean, before the ashram, I was kind of very much in psychonaut culture. um so I was using psychedelics for seeking um and for healing um I mean the two are kind of intertwined anyway but um I think when I saw kind of what I saw at the ashram really surprised me in how similar people's experiences during deep states of meditation were to psychedelic experiences. And I think what surprised me most was just that deep states of meditation at a spiritual retreat, like an ashram, would be so psychological that there would be this, that it would take people to the deepest, darkest parts of themselves that they had to confront in order to prepare their bodies and minds for higher states of consciousness um I think we normally don't associate mystical states transcendence with with darkness we associate it with bliss and awe and all of that um and I think seeing how you know how that was not the case at all um you know existential psychologist rollo may he criticized transpersonal psychology saying that it's um that in pursuit of the transcendental we neglect the dark side of human nature but that's that's not that wasn't what I saw at the ashram and that's not what we see in psychedelic therapy either. You actually, those states of consciousness actually become more available to you when you confront the darkness and the shadow. So yeah, I think just seeing how I was just surprised by how psychological, how healing mystical states are. Yeah, it's fascinating to think about that. You know, when I think about the darkness, I think about trauma. I think about shame. I think about fear. And like those are very difficult places for an individual to explore. But it seems, at least in my personal experience, that where you stumble is where you find the gold. And those dark spots is those places you're afraid to look is usually where you find the answer, right? Totally. And yeah, I mean, in yoga, when you enter deeper and deeper states of meditation and the kundalini energy, which is a dormant serpent like energy that sits at the base of the spine, starts to awaken and rise. it begins to clear the nadis, which are energy channels in our energy body that are blocked by traumatic conditioning. And so it's very much, yeah, it's very much like one has to clear and work through the trauma and the Because we all have these karmic imprints or samskaras, which are just our unconscious mental impressions, latent tendencies, residues from past experiences. But in psychology, we just call this conditioning or psychological imprints, traumatic imprints. but those need to be worked through in order for one to access higher states of consciousness. And that is the path to liberation. You spoke a little bit about being at the ashram but maybe you could paint us a bigger picture like what was your experience in botswana like like how did you decide to go there like you're just like I'm just gonna go to botswana like how do you how did that trip even begin there before we start digging into maybe some of the revelations maybe you could begin at the beginning like were you called to be there was it something that was sort of like in your peripheral imagination or well how did that transpire Yeah, well, the answer is always, yeah, the cosmic forces drew me there for a reason. But, yeah, I was drawn to, I was like, The Lion King is still my favorite movie of all time. And it was. And that's why I was very drawn to African wildlife. So, and, you know, I read that Botswana is like, has kind of, you know, with all the issues with wildlife conservation, they've kind of managed to preserve the most wildlife at this point. And so that's where I wanted to go. But, you know, I wasn't whatsoever expecting to have any profound experience. It was just to go see African wildlife. Um, and at that point I was doing neuroscience research on mice, um, you know, using, using mouse models to understand depression and PTSD. Um, yeah. And then I think just being deep in the African wilderness, um, I saw myself as I felt alive for the first time in my life, like seeing myself as a tiny part of such a vast and interconnected existence that is timeless made me in awe of life for the first time. And it's just this deep sense of humility and perspective that you get when you're when you're in a place that hasn't been touched by mankind. It really impacts you on a deep existential level. And that was kind of, at the time, I didn't know it was a transpersonal experience. I didn't have the language for it, but it definitely was my first one. And the plane ride, the plane, um, the flight back home, I was in tears. I was like, I don't want to go back to, you know, it's like when you have your kind of first spiritual awakening and you realize your whole life is a lie. And that's what I was experiencing. I was like, my whole life is a lie. Like this mouse research, like, what am I doing? Um, this is meaningless. Um, and so, and I didn't want to go back. Um, I didn't want to go back home. I I did and I was fighting it. I fought it for like three years. I was like, no, I'm just gonna, this was just an experience and I need to get over it. But then I was still on the path and I, you know, once you're on the path, you only go deeper and deeper, so. I love that. It makes me wanna cry a little bit. Like I know it, like I've felt it. It's really, It's emotional. It makes me feel like once you've seen something, you can't unsee it. Once you get a new shirt, Get a new car. Once you get something new in your life, you see it everywhere. But it's a little bit different when you see your life as the way you were living as a giant misguided lie. Like that is a hard one to really sit with because you have all these reasons to not believe. Well, what about this relationship? What about this thing that I did? What about this research that I'm doing? Like that was important, right? And part of you is like, not really. not really man you're just these are distractions like how did you how do you you talk about crying on the plane ride home like how do you integrate something like that like you you were doing like you you did awesome work man you were going to some great schools you were lined up with some great companies you had built some beautiful relationships what do you mean that was a lie and like how how do you integrate something like that that's gargantuan yeah um I mean, these are all like cultural, like these are all things we value in our culture. Like we value the elite schools and the prestigious positions, jobs, and the whatever, the material things. And when you're in it, you know, it's kind of like a fishbowl, like you think that that is, that is it, like that is where I need to, where I need to find my happiness, where I need to find my liberation. Yeah, and stepping outside of it is, it's so destabilizing. Um, I, I was listening to Ram Dass a lecture. He was, he recently said like a huge percentage of people that have mystical experiences say it's the best experience of their life and that they never want to have one again because it upsets the apple cart. Um, and, um, you, you know, you have to rearrange your entire life and that's, that's, hard to do. I mean, it took me three years. I was crying on the plane, but then I still went back to my job. I still was like, no, this is the way. It took me three years of being miserable to quit and join an ashram. And You know, I love talking about this. I spoke about this at the psilocybin panel, the yoga sutras of Patanjali, how, you know, it's a profound document, not just on yoga, but on life. And Patanjali begins it with just half a sentence. He says, and now yoga. So he's saying, if you still believe that your life will be fulfilled by a new relationship, a new house, a new car, more money, or any other form of external possession or validation, then it's not yet time for yoga. But now that you've seen through all that and realized that none of those things can truly fulfill you, now yoga. And yoga just means, I mean, it's not yoga in the westernized sense of like, you know, headstands and whatnot, but the spiritual path, the union, union with God, which is what yoga means. And so you realize that, that there's no, and it's a bottomless pit. That's why people, you know, they, there's never enough wealth for them. There's never enough. They're always seeking more and more because it's a bottomless pit until you, until you realize that what you're seeking is, is, is just not it. Yeah, you mentioned the idea of external validations. I feel myself, I obviously can't speak for anybody else, but it seems that our culture, that that's... What is drilled into us from an early age, especially in the Western world, when you go to a school and there's this authoritarian figure and culture tells you, look, you could be a fireman. You could be a businessman. You could be a banker. You could be a nerd. You could be all these things that we have prepackaged for you and they'll make you happy. You just got to keep going like this. idea of external validation is something that's handed to us, probably in the name of comfort, probably in the name of safety or in the name of security on some level. But maybe you could expand a little bit more on this relationship we have with external validation. Yeah, I mean, why do we, yeah, that's a good question. Why do we rely on external validation. Of course, there's evolutionary origins in that. We can't forget that we are... It's a very fine line because we are animals, but at the same time, we were given this self-awareness that is a gateway for liberation that that animals can't achieve. But because we are animals, this need to be included in groups, you know, group inclusion. There's a survival. There is an evolutionary survival reason for that. You know, you're not going to survive the winter alone. You need a tribe. So that runs really deep, that need for external validation, that need to feel included in a group, to feel like you have a system, a social support system around you. And so you're not going to do anything to compromise that. You're not going to, you know, that's why it's so difficult to kind of go against the grain. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know, George. It's tough. We also like identify with who we think we are. And we build these identities around ourselves and those identities need to get fed and fed and fed. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting to me, Luba, that like sometimes The very thing that makes you excited about life and seems like a superpower to you as an individual, the thing that makes you unique is also your greatest pain. Like, which one are you gonna feed? Like, I can do this. I have this dream. I believe in it. This is who I am. and you want to feed it, but the world around you is just trying to claw you back down. No, no, no, no. You stay down here. Stay over here. When I speak to some people, whether it's in the veteran community or the startup community, there is this overwhelming sense of despair sometimes from people you wouldn't even think. That person's on top of the world, but the truth is, Half the time they may appear to be on top of the world, but the other half of the time they're in this just pit of like despair on some level. It's so interesting to see that dynamic tension between these two forces. Does that sound familiar to you? Like when you think about that? Well, why are they in despair when you talk to them? Because the thing that they're trying to create seems so far away. Maybe it's like imposter syndrome or maybe it's this, maybe it's the now yoga thing. Maybe it's part of them dying. Like, oh my gosh, you're sitting there watching all these things around you that you thought were real just beginning to fall away like detritus. Yeah. And I mean, you know, it sounds like from what you're saying that and I don't know if this case, but it sounds like they are still in this, they are still kind of chasing, it depends on where it's coming from, if they are still chasing this need for success versus if there's an actual, if there's just a, the Bhagavad Gita says that one needs to focus on the labor rather than the fruits of the labor. If you just focus on the fruits, you're actually not going to get the ripe, juicy fruit that you want. if you focus on the labor, you're more likely to get it. And that's also like a Western culture thing is to really focus on the results and rather than the process to focus on the process, the journey, the experience. And so a lot of times, you know, I don't know if, if And if you chase success for the sake of success, it's not to say that you won't be successful, but will it be, will it be lasting? Will it have, um, will it be authentic? That's that's the question. Will it, will it be something that you want to leave behind as a legacy? Yeah. I like that. I feel like most of your time, our time is spent in process. And that's what you got to love to learn is the learning and the process of it. In your experience in traveling to Botswana, I can't help but think of that very similar to like an actual psychedelic experience where you find yourself in relationship to the whole, and it's so beautiful. And then towards the end of the psychedelic journey, you can feel yourself receding back into, you know, into the world you left or the state of consciousness you were previously in. Are those, is it similar? Like both of those experiences, the actual physical trip of you going to Botswana and then an actual psychedelic journey, are there some similarities in there? Yeah, I love that parallel that you're drawing because it's like taking a literal journey, a literal trip somewhere, having like a transpersonal experience and then coming back. And even like, you know, on psychedelics, there's also that kind of disappointment, sorrow you feel once the trip is ending or just like, oh, I have to come back to this like banal reality. yeah that's totally I can totally see that parallel um being experiencing myself as as part of a whole is a great way is a great way to say what I to articulate what I felt in botswana um yeah that's something that we modernity kind of takes away from us um and that being like in deep in the African wilderness, like where there isn't, there's no modernity there, you know, where you, you get to experience again. And it is, it is like very much like a psychedelic experience. One of my favorite, one of my favorite, um, ideas or one of my favorite things to think about is this idea of as above so below is like this idea of like everything's kind of fractal. And we've spoke about like the trip to Botswana and like a psychedelic experience. But I think if you just if you broaden it out even further on some level, like I see You know, it seems to me like you see this world of neuroscience and then all of a sudden you see this world of spirituality. Like in you, you personally, like you might be the person that I've spoken to who has one foot in both worlds. Like you're studying neuroscience and then mysticism. You're over here at NYU cutting up mouse brains and figuring out the head twitch and all this crazy stuff. And then all of a sudden, you're in Botswana, and you're surrounded by the spiritual nature of this boom coming in at you. Do you think what's happening in your life is also happening in this world of psychedelic renaissance right now? It seems like we have spiritual and science sort of reanimating itself in a way. And it seems like it's happening right, boom, right there in your life as well. Mm-hmm. yeah I mean I'm you know I am kind of no longer in the neuroscience world no longer cutting up mouse brains um so I can't say I fully have you know right my both feet in both worlds uh yeah, my feet in both worlds right now. But, but I think, yeah, it is, it is this, I love your, what you said about the as above, so below and the fractal nature of our existence, that self repeating pattern. I think, you know, it's not to say that we exist on multiple planes. We exist on multiple planes. And so there's all truths are true on one of those planes. So it's not to say that scientific materialism is totally invalid. On a certain plane, the three D plane, it's totally valid. And then there's another plane where it is invalid. I talk about Ram Dass like, three times a day. But like I said, Ram Dass also talks about like, You know, the debate is free will or determinism. And it's like both are true. On one plane, we have free will. On another plane, we don't. It's fully predetermined. And that's how I feel about the psychedelic renaissance. And there is some tension between the scientific materialists and the more like... you know, sacred medicine, spiritual, even psychological facets of the field. And it's, you know, I think both things can be true at once. It's like, it's not... Is it the neuroplasticity of the psychedelic experience that's healing or is it the mystical experience? And it's both. I mean, a mystical experience is neuroplasticity because the essence of a mystical experience is, you know, they talk about there's the medieval book, The Cloud of Unknowing or in Zen Buddhism. In Zen Buddhism, there's beginner's mind. And it's like you put yourself in a state of consciousness where there is a rewiring of the way you normally see and think. And that is in and of itself plastic. You're putting your mind in a very flexible state, in a state that you normally don't put it in. So, yeah, it's, you know, it's all truths are true on some planes. Oh, The Cloud of Unknowing. What a great book. And so much from the medieval mystics on some level had this really incredible connection and they were able to write it down, whether it's Aquinas or Julian of Norwich. There's just so many incredible individuals from that timeframe that were trying on some level to present us with the ineffable, this sort of... indescribable or or you know the the ecstasy of saint teresa you know when she talks about the cherub thrusting this rod with a spear made of gold into her chest and how it was so painful but beautiful at the same time like I'm so drawn to that like it's it's amazing to think about what We just stay with the ineffable for a moment, for a minute. Is that something that is unique to all of us? And maybe it's never meant to be explained. Maybe that's an experience for the individual to ruminate on, on some level. What's your take of this ineffable thing that happens from time to time, be it in a transpersonal experience in Botswana at an ashram, maybe at the, at the, out in a park somewhere or in a psychedelic experience? Hmm. You're saying like, do all human beings have the capacity to experience the ineffable or, or what do you, what do you mean? We can, we can, I want to get there, but first off, like, why is it a silly question, but like, why is it ineffable? Is it, is it, is that the reason? Is it, is it something that's bigger than words? There's no linguistic pathway, but there is an experience there. Any ideas on that? Yeah, totally. Those experiences transcend language. They transcend rational thought. They transcend linear thought. That's why all of these, the mystics write in poetry. They don't write in prose um the bible is poetry the bhagavad gita is poetry um you know obviously people take it literally but it's it's poetry um it's ineffable because you cannot um you cannot put into words and when you try it just sounds like word salad and you know like um Actually, Michael Pollan wrote in his in his book. In his book, God, I'm forgetting the name of the name of his famous book, what I'm looking at, how to change your mind. Yes, how to change your mind. He wrote about how, you know, there's these like platitudes like, oh, everything is love. There's nothing but love. And like they just sound like platitudes to us, like meaningless cliches. But then when you have that mystical transpersonal experience, you're like, oh no, no, that is not just a plat. Like it makes sense to you. It makes sense to your mind in that state. And it's not that it's a platitude, it's that we've lost touch with the meaning of those words, of those expressions. And then when your mind, goes into a plane of consciousness that's not a linear rational thought and you're able to see the truth of it um and it's hard to hold on to it once that experience leaves you yeah it's slippery like you think you can contain it you can't maybe you can touch it it's like touching the fire like oh ah what you know you forget all about it because of the pain sets and like oh I don't know. It was weird. I could kind of feel this thing, but it's interesting to think about. And I can understand. So this kind of brings me up. This brings up this idea of so many people that have this experience want others to experience it as well. And maybe that sort of shared experience is what propels a consciousness and a society and a culture forward, right? But it also breaks a lot of boundaries. And it kind of reminds me of maybe like this last renaissance, like in the sixties, when you saw like, Hey, this, this whole psychedelic thing is way out of control. We've got kids rioting and campuses or people talking about anti-war things. this drug problem, you know, like there's this crazy, we need to shut this thing down. It seems on some level, what was happening back in maybe the sixties or even the late fifties was sort of this similar spiritual awakening, but it made a lot of people really nervous. Do you kind of see that happening again in this particular experience we're having now, or is this my hallucination? Yeah, but this time they are they are trying to reign it in with the science. Like they're trying to really medicalize psychedelics and the whole movement in order to legitimize it. And, you know, I mean, on the one hand it's, good because that way it's pushing it forward without completely shutting it down like like like that the way it was previously in the sixties. Right. Because in the sixties it was I mean, you had like Tim Leary and Ram Dass like they were it was it was a very spiritual transpersonal kind of angle to it. And now and now, yeah, there is there's this, but I recently, you know, I recently saw there was a Rolling Stone article cover that was like, the title was people are taking mushrooms for depression and accidentally meeting God. The medicalization movement is faltering. Maybe that's because psychedelics have been spiritual tools all along. So I think there's this realization that psychedelic assisted therapy is a groundbreaking frontier with the potential to revolutionize mental health treatment. Um, but what sets these substances apart is not their chemical effects. Like let's not medicalize it. It's their unique ability to induce profound spiritual experiences. Like that's what is making this type of therapy, this medicine, so groundbreaking. But that's an uncomfortable place for people, for our world to sit in. Yeah, it's really well said. I was speaking with a friend of mine yesterday And we were talking about this very similar topic about like, you know, what are some differences and some similarities of this new wave, this fourth wave? And it seems to me that there sure is a lot of there's a lack there of a peace movement. I got in trouble for calling it an anti-war movement because it still says war. So you should just say peace instead of anti-war, George. But anyways, when you look at some of the PTSD and especially the medical container, it seems to commodify all the veterans. Like, here is this steady stream of people coming from war. This is a good thing. And we're going to help them through their PTSD. But it's still symptom management. You know, we're not addressing the actual issue. I started wondering, like, why is that? Well, they probably get a lot of grants. Well, you know, if you look at the veterans' groups, like... man they're still tied politically they're still getting a lot of money from the government the government probably doesn't want to talk about anti-war there's a lot of defense contractors out there and it's but it does begin to shine light you know just the fact that I'm talking about I'm some guy over here in california but you know, it's, it's beginning to escape the medical model at a level that is making a lot of people nervous. I saw yesterday, I talked to Joe Moore who, uh, psychedelics today, they got banned off of Instagram. Dennis Walker has been banned off Instagram. And like, there is this sort of think tension of like, okay, okay, let's get this toothpaste back in the bottle. Can we get this genie back over here? And to me, it's exciting. I think that what you're beginning to see is is, I mean, if you squint your eyes and look down the horizon, you can kind of see a glow school bus is coming your way. Is that too optimistic? Wait, why were they banned off Instagram again? I don't know for sure, but I mean, they are talking about psychedelics and they are, you know, maybe it's some of the certifications or maybe they're, they're some of the products they may be talking about. I don't know for sure, but you know, I think in Dennis's case, he was, it was Connor or something like that, but you know, nothing illegal and it's substance that had been around forever that are not really even gray market or they're out there. So I can't help, but think that's pressure on some level. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love what you said about, yeah, it is interesting that the, in the sixties, the psychedelic culture had a very strong anti-war like under like texture to it. There was a, yeah, a flavor to it. And, and now, yeah, we don't, we're not really seeing that. And yeah, Yeah, and you're right. It's like, well, yeah, there's all these veterans who are traumatized by combat. And rather than addressing the fact that we are using war in order to make people rich and to... you know, it's not just the veterans that are getting trauma victims of war. Um, so yeah. And rather than addressing that, it's, I mean, it's all just so disgusting. It's just so, um, yeah, I don't even know what to say about that. It brings up this, I have another question and I'm, I'm curious to get your opinion as, as someone who has been through the life that you've lived. It, it, There's a great book called Society of the Spectacle by Guy Debord. And in that book, he talks about anything that's created in misery will have the latent effect of misery later, be it a product, be it a food. And you start thinking about factory farming or you start thinking about widgets made on Amazon or people in slave labor or even batteries, like all these things that are bad. being created in misery. And by misery, I mean the people making them hate doing it, whether it's a guy going to his job here as a UPS driver or someone mining something somewhere else, like any product or any service that is created in misery will have that effect on the end user, a miserable experience. Do you think that that's true? Totally. And that is... That is why I don't listen to like most pop mainstream music because a lot of it, it's written from a place of pain. And I don't want my consciousness to, to take that on, to take that in. Yeah. I think, I think like we are, we are collective dreaming. It is a collective consciousness. So yeah, the one action one emotion one thought of one person has a ripple effect and um yeah if there's I I totally I totally think that there's a lot of validity to that um yeah and people are just not uh I forget who says this like all of the world's problems are rooted in the fact that people are not able to sit still alone with themselves in a room because they're not able to confront what's inside. And it's usually misery, anger, cruelty. Yeah, and they're just projecting it out into the world rather than cleaning it up within themselves, bringing more and more karma into this world. Oh, man, I'm reminded of that great C.S. Lewis quote where he says, I sat with my anger long enough. She told me her real name, grief. It's so beautiful, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, our culture. Yeah, people I think there's this anger. It's interesting how people feel more comfortable in anger than in grief. I think it's because. our culture kind of conceptualizes strength and power as like aggression and anger and um you know violence and grief is a weakness it's a vulnerability and that's something that we are not we look down upon um yeah I love it. I can't help when I look and listen to some of the younger generation. I believe wholeheartedly that the kids today are growing up in a world where more information means more awareness. I see them growing out of these old ideas. I know that we're a ways away, but I see it. Like I see the moving away from generational trauma or at least the attempt to be aware of the generational trauma that happened. And that to me is like a sunrise because it's like, oh, I feel it. I feel it talking to you. And when you talk about moving past aggression, like I see this as a new day dawning and people beginning to become aware of it. And that awareness is contagious. Is that when you look at the future and maybe it's just because where we are, but maybe I can't speak for you, but I'm some guy in his middle ages and I'm like, oh, I see the world changing. Maybe that's just the change I see in myself, but I can't help but see these positive insights in the people younger than me and it's changing faster. I know it's optimistic, but do you see these changes happening? Do you think that this new awareness is emerging at this time for a reason? Yeah, there's totally greater awareness in the culture of inner work um you know like the the age of aquarius is is a very it's a very internal age I mean therapy you know all therapy psychedelics um you know self-improvement all of this stuff is so mainstream right now um more mainstream than I mean you you've been around longer than I have no offense But, but, but, um, like, I'm assuming, you know, in the time you've been alive, it's more mainstream now than it's ever been. And then in the time that I've been alive as well, it's more mainstream, it's more accepted, it's more valued. And so yeah, I think there's, there's this evolution of consciousness happening where people are realizing that I mean, like I said, when we started out, you don't become enlightened, like Carl Jung said, by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. And so I think that's the point of all of this. That's the point of therapy and self-improvement and psychedelics becoming mainstream is in order for people to work through their own darkness and then And then the consequent light can radiate out into the world. Yeah, it's interesting. What do you think of this, the McDonald's of transformation? What comes to your mind? Oh. Oh, I don't love that. Well, yeah, no, I totally, what comes to mind is there is now this like, kind of like this fast food, like, but now it's fast self-help, fast self-improvement where it's become a commodity. It's become... something that is losing its meaning and its value. Um, third time in this conversation, I'm going to bring up Ram Dass. He, he talks about how, um, like how it's ridiculous that meditation in the West is something it's like a symptom management thing. It's like, I'm going to meditate in order for my, um, my symptoms to go away. I'm going to meditate in order to become more productive at work. Meditation is a contemplative practice to achieve union with God. And in that, sure, all those things will happen, but that is not the purpose of it. And so Yeah, I mean, this whole, this whole, anytime the West gets introduced to something, it becomes bastardized, like self-improvement now, transformation. Yeah, it's now, it's now becoming a McDonald's. They're taking what could be like a healthy burger from a cow that got a lot of love to to a crappy, you know, a crappy fake burger, a crappy, fake, disgusting burger. Yeah. It's interesting to me. Like it's, it's I don't, I have this idea of, and I feel like my mic's off right here. I have this idea of a drive-through where you can order a happy meal, just a happy meal and a certificate and be on your way and not really have to sit with anything that's difficult. But the true gold comes from real experience that probably no one else will care about except for you and maybe the people you're in relationship with. When you start finding and doing work on yourself and realizing why you hate your mom or hate your dad or hate your sister or you hate the guy at your work, when you start figuring out that maybe you hate part of yourself, whoa, all your relationships begin to change. But that's where the real transformation comes in from the inside, right? Like we want it to be easy. Like, and I wish it was, I wish more people could find an easy path to solving the problems in their life. But I don't think there is one. I think psychedelics may walk you up to the door, let you look in the window a little bit, but they're just showing you like, hey, look at this thing, man. You think it'd work on that? Hey, can you fix this thing over here? But it really does allow you to approach things without shame on some level. Have you found that in the yogic tradition and some of the healing you've done outside of psychedelics? that it's the same mechanism. It allows you to perceive yourself without shame. Are these two experiences paths to a similar outcome? Yes, totally. They are the same experience. Yeah, and you can... You can... see yourself without shame when you, when you like kind of shed those egoic layers, um, you can see parts of yourself without shame, but there is no, you have to feel a shame at, at some point. Um, you have to feel it. You have to, um, to go through it. And like you said, there is no, there's definitely no easy way. Um, it's not supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be, it's brutal. This, this type of work transformation, it is, um, it's like death and the labor pains of rebirth. Rebirth is like, if you think about birth labor, it's painful and same thing with transformation. Um, so, and yeah, you kind of have to walk through hell, uh, to get to heaven. And Jesus said, no one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless they are reborn to be reborn. You have to, again, and this is poetry. He, this is not literal. The kingdom of heaven is a state of consciousness where one is liberated. One is at peace. And you can only experience that unless you're reborn. And in order to be reborn, you have to die first. And, you know, like the Tibetan Book of the Dead, when they talk about what one experiences when they die, like hell is a state of consciousness. You die and you see all of your inner demons projected outwards. And that is something that people are running for. Twenty four, seven, twenty four, seven people are running from that unconsciously, but they are running from facing their own demons. But a death, whether it's a physical one or a psychological one, will force you to confront that. Yeah. I'm thinking of the the collective dreaming again, you know, and it's a, it's a beautiful way to look at it. Like if we are collectively dreaming, you know, I see so much, I see so many ideas that no longer serve us. And in a weird way, I can't help but think that that might be the projections of a generation of people dying. Like if we look at ourselves, if we look at the world and the human as one sort of organism, the baby boomer class around the world seems to be this giant generation of people. You know, they led us through the sixties. They had tons of amazing ideas and they helped us get where we are today. But on some level, there's so many people. It seems like maybe it's because in my life that are in their seventies and in their eighties and like, The people in my life that I love are really scared about dying on some level. I feel like that has to have a radical effect on the world we live in. And if you look at so much of the things that are happening in our world, I can't help think that maybe what we're seeing on a planetary level with all this difficult time is the unrealized dreams of people that are getting to move on to the next level. What do you think about that? If we are collectively dreaming and there's this large part of us that's moving on, that's got to have a lot of collective angst, right? hmm so you think like the the boomers who are the generation that is like on the verge of death right now are are afraid of dying and it's creating this angst yeah I think so hmm yeah I mean maybe all of us afraid they're dying like I'm afraid of people I love dying of course yeah there's um Unfortunately, love and loss are inextricably intertwined. Right. And we're all afraid of death. I don't know if... Yeah, the whole collective dreaming thing is interesting. I don't know if the boomers being afraid of dying is... what's creating the collective angst because that's, because I mean, why, why haven't, isn't that the case for all generations that are on the verge of dying? Why is this, why is the, um, the, the zeitgeist right now more, there's more chaos and angst than ever before. Why are the, are the boomers particularly holding on for dear life, you know? If I were to expand on it, I would say that like, And maybe this is an example of my life, but there's no rite of passage. When I look at so many people around the world holding onto power, they seem to me to be at an age where maybe they should be passing on their wisdom. Maybe they should be wisdom keepers that are passing on the tradition to the next generation. It doesn't seem that that's happening. If you look back at history on some level, I guess power is never really seeded. It's always taken. Maybe that's what we see happening right now. I don't know. In my world, I think that there's a lack of ritualistic handing down of power. I don't see any rites of passage, and that scares me. Shouldn't there be – if we look at the psychedelic tradition and we look at ceremonies and rituals – Like, it doesn't really seem to me that there is that on a planetary scale of the people currently in power. And this just could be me fantasizing about things, but I think there's a lack of tradition, a lack of rites of passage, and that is creating angst. I could just be rambling right now. I don't know. No, I think there's so much validity to what you're saying. Yeah, we don't... we don't have any elders really. Yeah. It's a totally different culture. Yeah. Um, in, in the West, in, in this, um, where, where science, where scientific and technological advancement is, is so prevalent and so valued. We have a totally different approach to, to everything. We don't have ritual. We don't have, um, We don't have tradition, we don't have rites of passage, and it's the source of so much misery. I love, it's kind of mind boggling how Aldous Huxley in the thirties saw this coming in Brave New World. He saw how scientific and technological advancement would deplete people, create this deep spiritual and existential void in people, in culture. And yeah. Yeah. I don't know, George. Yeah. There's a brilliant debate that I watched not too long ago about the future of Orwell versus Huxley. And forgive me for not realizing the guy's name. He's brilliant. But he spoke about – and he gave all these examples of vice that we seem to be turning to in absence of spirituality, be it pornography or our phones or the way in which technology allows us to have dopamine course through our brain and our veins and – It isn't. If there is a bright spot, though, I think that Huxley wrote The Island after Brave New World. So maybe he caught a glimpse of what can be possible. But yeah, maybe that's where we are right now when we look at science and spirituality and the psychedelic renaissance. Will this be something? Can this be a medicine that disassociates people? Or can it be a medicine that unites people? And probably both ways are true. Yeah, it's, yeah, I mean, in an ideal world, it unites us. There is definitely some dissociation happening with it as well. I mean, I think a lot of people think now, oh, great, now I can just take drugs and all my problems and get high and all my problems. will go away. Not only are my problems going to go away, but I can actually have fun in the process. And that is for sure a form of dissociation. And unfortunately, where the psychedelic movement seems to be headed at times. I haven't read the island, but I do know Terrence McKenna said that, um, he said that like, after this kind of insane, like scientific technological, like, um, era that we're in that we're going to, people are going to go back to like tribal living, um, like basic, basic, like tribal living. Like there's just going to be a total like one eighty. So, yeah, perhaps this is kind of like the storm before the calm. Yeah, the archaic revival. In that book, he goes deep into when societies get in trouble, they turn back to a point when things were better. Okay, where did we go wrong at? He goes deep in the archaic revival. In some ways, you can see it right now. Look at especially the world of psychedelics turning towards ceremony. You have the the CEO of startups in Silicon Valley, like I'm going to go do this ayahuasca trip for a little bit, like on some level, like that's, that's gotta be the path to the archaic revival. Like people are, it's, it's a real actual revival happening in real time. It's crazy. Yeah. Or just even like people, um, people wanting to live off the grid, off the land, people wanting, um, people wanting to eat organic food, food and just more natural, a more natural, slow lifestyle. Like, yeah, people are, it is, it is, that is for sure a manifestation of the archaic revival. Let's do just. So we've got a question coming in from my friend Clint here from our friend. Oh yeah. I'm just, I was just gonna say, let's do like a couple of minutes more. Yeah, no problem. Let me ask you this one right here. Yeah, go ahead. We'll land in the plane here. Do you believe modern psychology has the capacity to fully embrace transpersonal states or is it limited by its empirical roots? That's a great question. It's totally – Yeah, modern psychology needs a revival in order to embrace the transpersonal. This kind of behaviorist model that modern psychology operates within that framework is not conducive to understanding the more transpersonal nature, the more transpersonal spiritual needs of of human beings. So yeah, it's definitely limited, I would say. Yeah. I agree. Luba, you have been gracious with your time. So much fun talking. This hour flew by like it was ten minutes, I feel like. Talk for another hour. I'm super stoked to hang out with you and talk to you. You know, before I let you, before we land the plane, maybe you could be so kind as to tell people what you got coming up, where they can find you, what you're excited about. Well, you can find me on my website. lubav yusufova.com um I am right now you know I'm just letting things unfold organically I feel like what's been what the cosmic forces have been sending my way is a lot like public speaking opportunities so um I'm gonna be speaking in march in Paris at a global women's power summit. In May, I'll be speaking at a psychedelic social club. Yeah, so kind of that's been kind of what's been happening. So and of course, you know, I'm seeing clients and doing my own, always doing my own work on myself. Well, fantastic. I think everybody within the sound of my voice should go down to the show notes, check out the website, reach out. It's an incredible conversation. I can't wait to see all the things in the future that you got coming up and hang on briefly afterwards. But to everybody else, I hope you have a beautiful weekend. I hope the sun is shining and if you get out there and do the work, the world will open up to you in ways you can't imagine. That's all we got, ladies and gentlemen. Have a beautiful day. Aloha.