Ladies and gentlemen, it's Friday. I hope the birds are singing. I hope the sun is shining. I hope the wind is at your back. I have with me today an incredible guest, someone that I met at Silla Seib in San Francisco in being such an amazing person. And let me just go ahead and just say aloha, everyone. Today, I'm honored to introduce a truly transformative force in the world of psychedelic therapy, Rome Shandalu. As the founder of Mycology Psychology, Rome has dedicated her life to healing the deep wounds of CPTSD and attachment injuries, blending cutting-edge science with profound compassion. With a degree in holistic psychology from Lesley University and a specialization in psychonumerology, Rome's work unveils the intricate connections between the mind and body, offering relief for chronic pain rooted in emotional trauma. She's guided over one hundred individuals through the integration of psilocybin, five MEO DMT and MDMA experiences, helping them find clarity balance, and healing. Rome's approach is as diverse as it is impactful, incorporating internal family systems, reparenting techniques, and quantum healing into her practice. As a certified death doula, she also provides solace and guidance during life's most profound transitions. Her career spans impactful roles, including her time at Proposition thirty six rehab facilities where she supported incarcerated and formerly incarcerated individuals in moments of urgent crisis. Her ability to create space for transformation, whether through therapy, integration or crisis support, is a testament to her deep commitment to healing at every level. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome Rome to the show. Rome, how are you? I'm amazing. Thank you so much. You are. No, yeah. I came on. I want everyone to know that when we first got on the call, you were blasting Ziggy Marley. And it just like brightened my already bright day. And I'm just really happy to be here with you. And yeah, let's do this thing. Yeah. Yeah, we were. We were kind of riffing before the conversation started. It's always such a sign of a good podcast. You were being really thankful for microdosing. And you know what? You took sort of a circuitous route to healing people and jumping onto the stage here at Psychedelic San Francisco. Maybe you could talk a little bit about your background and how you kind of got to be where you are now. Yeah, absolutely. I just want to address the interesting thing is I did not end up getting my degree, and I will tell you how that happened. All right. Um, I was three electives away from getting my degree in holistic psychology and then COVID happened and I was in Boston and, um, I was God bless Boston. Wonderful. But I said, I am not going to hunker down here in Boston. I came back to LA and I definitely, definitely hit the ground running when I got here because I was already working with people and, um, And suddenly people just really wanted to dive into medicine work and more people showed up and more people showed up and more people showed up. And so this is kind of how mycology psychology got started. And by the time I wanted to go finish those electives, I didn't have time. And I thought to myself, you know what? Um, I feel confident in my role as a helper. I feel a little weird about calling myself a healer because I believe that really people have to heal themselves. We help them. We facilitate. We reflect back to them. We give the connection because, as they say, we get wounded in relationships so we can also heal in relationship. And as much as radical responsibility is important, we need connections. This is how we're wired as human beings. But to your question, and I believe it was how did I get started doing all of this, really from my own need to heal is kind of like the origin story of so many people who do this work. I wanted to be the person that I needed when I was in that space. And I saw so many irresponsible, egotistical, and or predatory therapists and coaches and shamans and healers and doctors on this quest to get healthy mentally, physically, emotionally, and spiritually. And for me, there was this moment where I had decided I want to be a safe space for someone like me to go to. And that's really how it started for me. And also, the truth is this. They talk about empaths being empaths, and it's so wonderful, but so hard. And the truth is, if you're an empath, you probably had a shitty childhood and had to anticipate the adult's needs. That's where it comes from. And that was my childhood. I had to anticipate the adult's needs in order to feel safe. And it became a superpower. And now I know how to anticipate people's needs and feel their emotions. but the difference is through my own healing work, really learning how to do that in a more boundary way where I don't self abandon in order to do it. So I love working with people. I'm really grateful for that. This is my Dharma. I was telling someone yesterday that for all the shit that's happened, I would never trade places with another human being because I'm very familiar with my own stuff. And I, I like who I've become. I have fought to become. I have fought for my soul. And I'm really, really grateful that I get to share it with other people and contribute to light in the world, but also very comfortable with sitting with the darkness because light doesn't need more light. It's the darkness that needs to be illuminated by the light. And playing in both worlds without spiritual bypassing and toxic positivity is extremely important to me. I think I answered your question. Absolutely, it was a beautiful answer. Was there ever a time, I know for me, there were plenty of times when like, I didn't like who I was. And like, that's kind of how I ended up doing a lot of work on myself is that I would be, I tell this story. People can be like, George, you tell the story all the time. I'll tell it one more time. So it was a guy at my work and I used to be a, okay. Yeah. It's a, it's a, I enjoy it because it helps remind me of becoming a better person. And so there was this guy at my work one time and I was always really mean to him. And, uh, you know, I just thought I was talking shit. I'll be like, ah, you know, say something. And one time after maybe months had gone by, one of my friends pulled me aside and like, George, you are being an asshole to this guy. And I'm like, no, I'm not like, that's just how I, we're just playing, man. Like he likes that. And we were like, no, no, no, no, no. You are being a dick, George. And I remember that night I went home and I had taken like a giant dose of mushrooms and I was sat there thinking about this problem. And I was like, Am I being an asshole? And like, you know, the thought comes to my mind, like, yep. Okay. Okay. I'm being a dick. Okay. Got it. Why am I being a dick? And the next thought, yeah. Right. You sit with that why long enough. And then these, these bubbles in your mind start popping up. And the first one that rises to the surface, like, and it's like, you don't like him because he's weak. And the next one pops up. You don't like him because you're weak. Oh man. I just get goosebumps thinking about it. I have goosebumps too. Right. And I'm like, that guy is reminding me how weak I am. And instead of me doing any work on myself, I just yell at him and make fun of him. Like I am, that is a horrible thing to do. So I had to go and like apologize to him. And the guy was super cool. He was like, yeah, you are a dick, dude. And I told him all this stuff. He started laughing. He goes, yeah, yeah, whatever. He accepted my apology. And from that point on, like that was a turning point for me. Like, wow, these things I see in other people that I don't like are really things about me that I don't like. So that's a story about something in me that I had to change I didn't like. Can you share a story about maybe a time when you didn't like yourself and some work that you did to make yourself feel better or be better? Wait, I'm sorry. I'm still in your story. Okay. Because I not only got chills, but I almost cried. Like thinking about how, and maybe this is an assumption, but like how you may have like given yourself a moral injury when you realized how you had hurt this other human being and you didn't even really mean to, you know, like, yeah, it's just, it just, so what was the question? Yeah. Okay. For me, psychedelics was this sort of pathway to see this new awareness or to be part of this awareness. And it helped change my life. And that's just one of many stories that I think many people in this space have that are real stories that may not be something that could be measured in a clinical trial. You know, you may not have to have a degree to do it. You don't need a psychology degree. You don't need a neuroscience degree. But there are tangible things in your life that you can measure through psychedelics like this particular instance that change you forever. And it changed me to liking myself a little bit more, at least showing me the parts that I need to work on. And like, I just, I know a little bit about your story, like how, where you were born and how you fought. And I was just curious if maybe we could continue, you know, maybe you could share something with me and the audience that maybe they could look at in their life and be like, Oh yeah, I've seen that. Or I can, I can vibe with that. Sure. Yeah. Um, well I've had a few really profound experiences on psychedelics, but I, I, my first psychedelic experience and this doesn't high school doesn't count you know I like when I took mushrooms and my mom caught me and then made me take like a trazodone to interrupt my trip and didn't offer one to my friend who was up all night crying by herself that doesn't count okay that's incredible and now my mom does mushrooms but that's fine imagine that so I'm talking about my first spiritual, psychedelic experience with a fully formed prefrontal cortex and a fully formed ego. Because when you're doing psychedelics under the age of twenty five, you're still building your ego up. You're still figuring things out. Your brain is not fully developed. But after that age, that's when you start taking the ego apart and rearranging it and really looking at it. So, you know, after twelve, no, sorry, fifteen years in Alcoholics Anonymous, doing endless step work, endless sponsoring people, going to endless therapy since the age of nine, you know, I had shared, I believe, that I got stuck. I had done all this work, but I still didn't feel comfortable in my skin and in my body. I had learned how to, like, not be an asshole for the most part. Not fully, but it was very much like, don't do this. This is wrong. And it came from up here, not from the heart. And so the first time that I sat with ayahuasca, and that was like, I believe, the grandmother, the medicine showed me such deep love and compassion that I was humbled. I was humbled into being a better person. And I was not ashamed because the medicine didn't bring me shame, but I was always able to observe the mistakes I had made with other people and where I wasn't being compassionate enough and I wasn't being kind enough. And really for me, it showed me that I didn't have, I didn't have what I'd never received, right. To give to other people, but I received it in the medicine. And because I received it in the medicine, I was so grateful. George, I was so grateful. I was like, this is it. I made it. I don't think I would have made it without that experience. And what really specifically happened here is that I grew up, for whatever reason, feeling no connection to my own grandmother on my mother's side or my father's side, but specifically to my mother's side. And really no connection to my own mother either. And I always kind of thought, like, oh, maybe there's something wrong with me. Like, maybe I'm a sociopath. Like, why don't I love my grandmother? I don't understand. And in the medicine, I remember I was going through some really profound feeling of humility and love. And I was crying. And my teardrops were gigantic. And they were splashing on the floor. And I could hear them splashing on the floor. a facilitator came over and she started patting my back really compassionately. And she was like, you're doing amazing. You're doing amazing. And suddenly when I have chills right now, I felt like this pink, beautiful energy going through my body. I felt a feeling I'd never felt in my life. I never felt that level of, of love and comfort and joy and peace. And suddenly I felt eight hands on my back. And I was like, what's going on here? And it was an octopus. And this octopus was petting me, stroking my hair, holding me. And the octopus said, I am your mother. And I have enough hands to take care of you, myself, and everything else. Don't you worry. And I realized that growing up, you know, I didn't have that from my mother, not because she didn't want to be a good mother, not because she's not an incredible human being, but because she was dealing with her own trauma and she felt overwhelmed by being a mother. And so I had a very reparative experience with this octopus and coming out of that journey, it completely changed my relationship to my mother and my grandmother. And I realized I wasn't rejecting them. I was rejecting them. the trauma that they had that I was trying to somehow prevent from being passed on to me but I was actually perpetuating by disconnecting from the compassion piece um and so yeah our relationships changed forever um another really quick one and this one's kind of funny um is like later in my journey I think this was just a few years ago I I had done like five grams of mushrooms And it got very visual. And I was getting these downloads, and I was getting all this wisdom from the universe. And I was like, God, wow, Rome, you're so wise. I was like, you should write books and like really like going into that ego spiritual trap. Right. Right. And suddenly this jack in the box appeared in front of me and this clown popped out and started laughing at me. And I got immediately that it was my ego going, got you. I got you. And I was like, oh, okay, you're right. Oh my God, you're right. You're right. And I'm like, it's, you know, it's not from me. It's through me. It's source. It's medicine. It's nature. credit where credit is due, you know, and then I'd be like, yeah, Rome, you're so good at being humble. And then the clown popped up again. And what it really taught me is, you know, there's really nothing more egotistical than wanting to not have any ego as a human being. And that's the trap door right there. So, you know, I've had a, I've had a couple of experiences on medicine for sure. And like, that's two of many that have really changed me as a human being. And when you told the story about being mean to your coworker, I remembered a story when I was years old, I was very mean to my coworker. And I think that's kind of how, um, the reason I got a little emotional when you were telling that story is now I'm looking back on that. And, um, She was a single mother. She was trying to feed her children, but we were in competition for commission. And yeah, and there was something about her I didn't like. And I think I didn't like the desperation she was feeling. I think it scared me. And so I think that's why I got a little emotional. And if I could even remember her name or find her, I would have loved to have made amends to her. But even these conversations together are medicine. Our conversations can be very psychedelic when we're vulnerable and we tell the truth. So thanks, George. Those are awesome stories. Thanks for sharing. It blows my mind to think about How long something can stay with you, whether it's a relationship that bothered you, an incident with your parents, or maybe your kid or a loved one on some level. It's like this unresolved situations. Sometimes they just stay with us. They're hard to let go, right? What do you do? If someone comes to you, like you sat with a lot of people and you've helped, you've done a lot of integration working on yourself with other people. what are some, some things people get stuck on and, and what is some information that you can provide to people when they find themselves when these negative repeating patterns? Yeah. Um, well, what I've found is that it really gets stuck in the body, you know, it gets lodged in the body and, you know, there's, it's very interesting. So like, you know, you ask like, what is the quantum work? You know, how do you work with chronic pain and psychoimmunology and, you know, what it really is, is I'm finding more and more and more through my work with others and myself that, you know, we have memories stored in our fascia and not only our memories, but our ancestors experiences. And so I call it like a lasagna of time where there's like layers of like the lasagna and then the meat and then the cheese and then the lasagna and then the meat and the cheese. And so it's like going back and like really taking apart this lasagna and you know, and looking through it, you know, I don't know if you can ever get rid of anything. I don't believe you can. I think once something has happened, it will have always happened. And it kind of gets lodged in that lasagna. And it's recorded in our bodies and in our fascia. But what we can do is change our relationship to what's happened. Um, listen to what's happened, see what's happened because a lot of the times the pain is like a little child that just wants to be soothed and seen and heard. So really working with that and I'll do body work around it because here's the thing about just talk therapy and going through your story. First, at first, it's wonderful. You're speaking to someone who's listening to you. Like, oh my God, someone is listening to you. Even if you're paying them, they're sitting there, they're listening to you. They're reflecting you back to you. It's wonderful. You feel relational. You feel a connection. You feel reflection from them. And this goes back to healing in relationship with someone. That's what's so magical about going in and talking something out with someone. And it's very organizing. But after a while, it can actually start hurting you. Because what you're doing is you're going in week to week to week and telling your story, telling your story, and telling your story. And what you're doing is you're just reinforcing those negative neural pathways and those beliefs. And you're really getting really married to your story. But the work with psychedelics and the work with the body work is beyond language. It's going in through time. and going back for something, you know, and rearranging your relationship with it, or freeing one of your exiled parts, you know, and getting back to the core self. But I am very clear through this medicine work that it's not just our stories, it's the stories of our ancestors. And as cheesy as it can sound, and as much as people have seen this on Instagram, You know, you're the one in your lineage that's here to break it. You are. You are the one in your lineage that's here to break it if you're doing this work. And we're on a time, we're at a time on this planet where that has really become the work, you know, going back. And for me, it's very clear that there's a lot of work with the women and the men in my lineage, but really the women going back and, you know, helping clear out some of that stuff that I hold in my muscles for them. and doing it by deconstructing my belief systems that I've inherited and really kind of still holding that space for the parts of me that were in pain or the things that have happened that really hurt me. I'm not trying to get rid of those things. I want to hold those things. I want to love those things. I want to accept those things. And then I want to change my relationship with those things, especially by making those parts of me feel safe enough to let me hold them. So that's really the work that we do. We don't just sit and talk and talk and talk. It becomes very intuitive and it becomes very quantum and it becomes very body oriented because it's all connected. That's an awesome answer. Thank you. It makes me... It makes me think about the observer effect. It's one thing to sit and listen. It's one thing for an individual to sit somewhere, and sometimes you can do the medicine work by yourself. Maybe it's recreational, but it's one thing to sit there and go over some of your own ideas and try to come up with your own solutions to your problems and rethink things and maybe sneak up on an idea without shame or guilt. And you can relieve some tension that way. It's another thing to sit down and talk to somebody. but it seems to me there's a radical effect when other people are observing you. And I don't know a whole lot about it. Usually if I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it all alone. I don't know a whole lot about ceremony or rituals or rites of passage. Maybe you could speak to the difference between maybe tripping or working on your problems yourself, doing some medicine work on yourself versus being within one individual versus being in a group of people. What are some similarities and differences there? I'm going to hold on to what you just said, but I just really want to quickly say, um, I think it's like a law of physics that something changes just by being observed. Schrodinger's cat. What? Schrodinger's cat. Schrodinger's cat. That's when they put the cyanide in the box with the cat. Dead, not dead, fifty-fifty. But yeah, it is connected to Schrodinger's cat. So yes, absolutely, being observed is very important because the universe just wants to experience itself through all of us. And if you're in a vacuum, this experience is not being witnessed. And so it doesn't really have a place to be heard and seen, right? So part of the universe wanting to experience itself is wanting to witness itself. So if I'm witnessing you, it's the experience of the universe witnessing another part of itself because the universe wants to know itself through creation. So I have taken, I did a summer of psychedelics by myself. And it was very interesting because I went in it to have some fun and explore and really like create, you know, a relationship with the medicine. And what ended up happening a couple of times is that I called my mom crying and saying, please come be with me. I'm tripping and I don't want to be by myself. Awesome. And, you know, yeah, I think maybe I was just not prepared for that. But it's the funny thing is like when you accidentally have this like spiritual experience when you're just trying to be recreational, because at the end of the day, the medicine decides what experience it's going to give you. I've used this example so many times, but the medicine's like a DJ. You know, you can make your requests. you know, and, but, and, and it will, it may, it may play your song, but if it's like, no, that's not the vibe of the, of the night, we're not doing that. It's not going to do it. It's going to play the song that's right for the room. So yes, I think like, you know, taking medicine by yourself can be very valuable, you know, but there's, my advice would be put away your phone. Don't text people, right. You know, like, I don't recommend journaling because it puts you in your mind. But if you have to text someone something, write it down on a piece of paper. Make sure that you have one emergency person to call. You know, I called my mom. She didn't know she was my emergency person, but God bless her, she showed up. And make sure that, you know, you're not near bodies of water. You know, just basic stuff like that. I love one-on-one work. I love one-on-one work. I personally do not like sitting in medicine circles. The reason I don't like sitting in medicine circles is because I tend to absorb other people's stuff. And also I have been kicked out of ayahuasca circles for being too loud. And it's not something I'm doing on purpose. But as I'm being carried out of the room, I'm like, oh, man, I did it again. I don't want to be that person. But the advantage of being with another human being, again, is being witnessed because the psychedelics and particularly MDMA can take you into a very young state. And that's such a beautiful opportunity for having a reparative experience, being that porous, that open, that vulnerable, with that much plasticity in your nervous system that you haven't had since you were a kid. And having someone put their hand on your shoulder and saying you're doing great, it's extremely healing. And as far as the groups are concerned, maybe they're not for me, but the advantage for the groups are community-based. because we're really meant to be in community and being in community in that context, being vulnerable with other people, really taking the elevator down into the nitty gritty of like being a human being, instead of being with a group of people at a party, doing small talk, you know, what do you do for a living? And, you know, like, how was the summer and how's the weather? God, such a nightmare for me. So I think that's part of what really attracted me to psychedelics is like, can we just really talk about death? you know, that we're all going to die. Can we talk about heartbreak, love, joy, how incredible nature is? Like these are the conversations I want to have. And it's also what attracted me to being a death doula because death is very psychedelic. It's another time where people are not interested in small talk. They are really, and I'm having chills, they're surveying their life and they want to talk about all the most important things. And it comes down to relationship and connection and love. So those are the spaces in which I feel the most comfortable. And I'm interested in being around other people that feel comfortable in those spaces. George, I feel like you're one of those people. Thank you. So much of what you said resonates with me. I am I'm fascinated by death. I think about it a lot. Sometimes I wake up like, I'm going to die. I'm going to die. I scare myself. I'm like, holy shit, I'm going to die. What does that mean? There's that old quote that says, fate loves irony. I can't know I've had like my son died like I've I've got like my son died that was a huge turning point for me when he died like that sort of began this sort of romance with death and this way in which you can see it as as a sacrifice as something that's dangerously beautiful you know and like when you start talking about someone that you love died as being a blessing people back away from you like this person's out of their mind what do you mean that's a blessing Because that person, I thought you loved them. What do you mean it's the greatest thing that ever happened to you? You know, and you're like, okay, I'm different. Okay, okay, I should be careful about this conversation. And, you know, it just oozes out of your pores. But I think about it all the time. And sometimes I feel like I attract it. You know, I know people in my life right now that are suffering from, like, almost stage four breast cancer. And it's like, holy shit, why am I – I'm here with them. Like, I should be doing something way more meaningful than, you know – Talking about buying a Tesla or going to Costco. There's so much life we can live in a moment if we're willing to be open and do it. And the truth is, you're right. We're all going to die. Some of us sooner than others. And you never know. The more that I talk about it, the more that I meet people who are like, hey, thanks for saying that. My uncle just died or my niece overdosed. This is the one thing that we really all have in common. We spend so much time being distracted. so much time worrying about what we have, what we need versus like, am I really being present with these people right now? Like how, how can I enjoy my time with them? What can I do that's meaningful with them? And I, I want that Rome. We are kindred spirits. I was literally about to say, we are friends now. I feel, you know, definitely my condolences because I'm, I know that's painful. And I think part of enlightenment is having a beautiful relationship with death. Because the more you reject death, the more you end up rejecting life. And what you're describing that your son may have given you is deathbed perspective, where You're thinking about death every single day, but it's giving you the gift of, oh, I have a limited amount of time on this planet and with the people I love. And then moving accordingly. So our relationship to death is proportionate to our relationship to living. And I'm, I, I've had chills so many times during our conversation. Um, and really. understanding and you're right not a lot of people are ready for this conversation especially in western culture you know that first of all we've been dead before we were dead before we got here and we're fine with it we don't remember we died when we were born right being born is death and I often think about that light at the end of the tunnel that people see when they die is it the opening of the vagina Are we about to go through it again and again and again? The thing is this, when I talk about the lasagna of time, everything that's always happened will have always happened. Once you're born and you're on this planet and you have been loved and you have loved, you will never die. Even when your physical body is gone. Anytime someone tells a story about you, anytime someone cries for you, Anytime someone laughs at something dumb you did when you were here, you know, anytime someone listens to a song that reminds them of you, you know, you don't even need to have children in order to go on and on and on. Right. You live through other people's hearts and minds forever. And, um, and in some ways, you know, I don't know what it's like to lose a child and I know it's the hardest thing in the world, but I've lost people I love. And, um, I just feel myself absorbing them into myself even deeper. They're even more present because, you know, the stupid shit in life like, oh, you did this thing that annoyed me or you're with this other person or this or that. It all disappears. It all dissolves into love. And I miss you. And I'm so glad that I got to meet you while you were here. And I'll have that in me forever. And I'll carry that on my head like a crown for the rest of my life. yeah it's interesting like I you know you see it seems like so many people chase this idea of legacy but the real legacy is in your relationships right like and you said it so well where if you can if you can influence someone's heart and mind in a way that makes them see the world a little bit better like that's how you live forever like that that's immortality you know we we chase these ideas of the elixir of immortality or youth in a bottle but the truth is just I don't know creating a path for someone to think about you in times of tragedy like oh you know I remember that thing rome said you know and then I'm like I'm calling you down from the heavens even when you're gone like you're hanging out with me yeah and love is eternal and you just made me think of mike tyson when you were talking about legacy did you see that interview he gave I didn't see it no what'd he say so this is hilarious and I'm going to send you this clip and to your listeners, I, I, I implore you to look up this clip. There's this little girl, uh, you know, he, he fought Jake Paul. He lost. Uh, some people say it was rigged. Some people don't, it doesn't matter. But this little girl was interviewing Mike Tyson before the fight. And she's like nine years old. And she was like, you know, uh, how is this fight going to affect your legacy? And Mike Tyson looks at her. He's like, I don't give a fuck about my legacy. He's like, legacy's not real. It's just something people invented. We're all going to die. We're all dust. Nothing matters. And this nine-year-old girl is like, oh, okay. I don't know what to say. She handled it really well. He's like, the only legacy that matters is for me to my children, basically. You know, I thought it was a really interesting answer of a man who has clearly done a lot of psychedelics. And it's very comfortable with the impermanence of all of this and that there's something so much bigger than legacy. And yet the only, I will add in the legacy that matters is the love you leave behind, you know, the things you did, if they help people, that's wonderful. Yes. You're affecting people. You know, you're, you're creating a fractal in the world. Your presence is creating a fractal in the world, but the only true legacy is love. And I really, I, Love Mike Tyson for that. Yeah. His trajectory is such an amazing thing to watch, like arguably the greatest heavyweight of all times. And then he's got such great insight. Like everybody's got a plan until you get punched in the face. And then you see his whole trajectory. You can see his use of psychedelics. And then all of a sudden, everything begins to change. He starts becoming like this philosopher on some level. Yes. It's interesting to think about. Mike Tyson. I know, right? Not on the bingo card, like the eighties. Like he, you thought like everyone thought he was this dumb guy, right? But it's very clear that the psychedelics have chosen him to be a representative. That's part of the trajectory. And the boxing was all part of it too. I always say your life before you do this type of work is part of this work, ends up being part of it. And so- You know, like for me, I was in the entertainment business for a while. So I got very comfortable speaking on camera, right? I didn't know back then that that was my preparation to speak about this work with people. I didn't know that back then. I know people that were in the corporate world, you know, that have come to mycology psychology and, you know, now they're, they're holding the space and they're doing the thing, but they can kind of help with backend stuff too. You know, the medicine's very creative on, on who they invite onto the ship and they kind of harken back to the previous experience, like, oh, that would be a good person for this role. That would be a good person for that role. And it's, it's called your second mountain. Your first mountain is your first life. It's kind of like accumulating the car or the home, or like just having the job and getting the paycheck. And your second mountain is your life's purpose of being of service to humanity, to others, to the people, most importantly in your home and in your inner circle, because that's where it really starts. And the first mountain can always help you with the second mountain. So yeah, Mike Tyson's had two very interesting mountains. Yeah, it's a great point. Let's see. Our friend Clint says, I've never shared this because it sounds kind of crazy. I don't enjoy funerals, but I enjoy attending them. I completely understand that. I have an uncle that loves funerals. He will show up to every funeral. Even if it was an acquaintance, he'll be there. And I don't know... I don't know what this person's reasoning is. I don't have a name. I'm so sorry. But the reason I believe for my uncle is that he's around people in a very open state and there's no small talk. It's just peaceful and solemn. And that's his reason. I don't think that's abnormal at all, but I'm not a normal person and neither is George. So you've come to the right place. Yeah, neither is Clint. Thank you, Clint, for chiming in here. And do you see, like, we've talked a little bit about death and, you know, you are a certified death doula. And right now with psychedelics, we're beginning to see people do end of life therapy. Do you envision a time when maybe we sort of take back the dignity in dying and people can choose to go out? What are your thoughts? Do you see this sort of happening in a new way? We're going to maybe reestablish a relationship with death that's more positive. Don't even get me started. Don't even get me started. First of all, we're heading towards a very big tilt in our population where it's going to be all old people. Like people are going to be dying en masse and we don't have the infrastructure for that. Right. And we definitely don't have the infrastructure for compassionate deaths even now. You know, first of all, people are being kept alive too long. And, you know, it has to do with the cultural imprint of death is bad. That's the first layer of it. Death is bad. Don't let grandma die at any cost, literally at any cost, because it's very expensive. And that's the second piece. Don't let grandma die. She has dementia. She's in an old age home. She's crying every day. They're medicating her. She doesn't know where she is. We don't feel like visiting her anymore. It's too sad, right? And these emotions and these belief systems are preyed upon for profit. Because you can make really good money keeping someone alive. And then the final thing is the funeral. We can make good money on death, but that's finite. You know, we can only make money on the funeral after that. That's that. The plot's been sold. The coffin's been sold. The funeral's been had. That's it. We can no longer make money on this person. So really shifting our relationship to death in Western culture is the first step of you know, it's natural part of life and actually should be celebrated that you have come here to complete your contract. You did well. You've affected people in many ways. Even if you've affected people negatively, good job because you came here to teach. You came here to teach people how to sit with forgiveness, you know, how to sit with darkness. You've offered lessons. If you're a person that's disproportionately affected people in a positive way, that's also obviously wonderful, right? You did it, you can rest now. And then the living, we need to get comfortable with impermanence, trust life, trust death, trust the universe, and know that missing someone means that we have deeply loved. And what a gift that we were able to deeply love. And yes, it fucking hurts regardless. I'm not saying it doesn't, you know, I will never be so enlightened that I don't care that the people around me are dying. Um, but it's my relationship to the grief of like, yeah, crack my heart open. Grief cracks your heart open and really brings you back down to what's important in life. So really understand understanding that as a society, secondly, allowing people dignity, you know, there's a big difference between euthanasia and suicide. You know, again, going back to grandma in that home, I was having this conversation with someone where it's like, OK, you know, maybe a dignified, gentle exit would be appropriate in this context. I have a friend who, you know, he has a disease of the cerebellum. His body is very drunk. Right. But his mind is very sharp. And as a result, his mobility is very affected. He falls over a lot. And he's like a few falls away from being hospitalized. And it's his biggest fear, maybe even one fall. It's his biggest fear to go into that system. He doesn't want it. So we discussed how he wants to have a dignified, graceful exit before his next fall because he doesn't want to risk being in a hospital. And he's already like his body is giving out on him. and how difficult it has been to arrange this for him. It's been very difficult, we tried. And what he wants is not allowed. What he wants is not allowed. So he feels disempowered. You know, Another thing is the way we treat our elderly. And of course, young people die. But the way we treat them, we dispose them. I think that really needs to change, especially with what's coming. Seeing them for the vessels of wisdom that they are. And if they no longer have that wisdom due to dementia or Alzheimer's, knowing that that person is still in there, you know, and deserves dignity and love. But the problem is this. We no longer live in tribes and villages where everyone helps each other raise their children, where everybody helps each other cook, where everybody helps each other with the grief. And because we live in such an individualistic society in our boxes next to each other, everyone is so individually overwhelmed that we get compassion fatigue. So these are the many aspects of what needs to change around death and really really really at the root of all of it at the root of all of it knowing that we are one that no one has really gone anywhere we're just in a lasagna and and that love is eternal and we will see them again we will see them again and if you're atheist and you don't believe that you know I don't know how to speak to that I used to be atheist um And I was very proud of being an atheist. And for me, that just, that changed and it's made my life richer and better. And if I'm wrong, you know, about what's out there and I die and there's nothingness, I won't even know I'm wrong. I'll just know that I had an easier life because I really deeply believe these things. But I have to say it's, I don't even believe them. I know them. I know them in my heart. You know, I had a discussion with someone last night about God. You know, like there was a swami that took on a student because a student said, I don't know if God exists. And that was like such a wise thing to say. But I do know God exists for me because even if we're in a simulation, the simulation is God. I have a very broad definition of God. So it makes it easy for me to believe in God. It's not just a man in the sky with a beard. And I think broadening your definitions can be really helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. There's something healing, or there's something... It's something that happens when you realize you're bigger than just who you are. When you realize you're part of a whole system. And that's one of the reasons I love psychedelic work so much is that there's this embodiment there. Like sometimes... under whatever dose works for you you can look out and realize like the planet's talking to you it's speaking a language if you're just willing to tune into it like oh look at this little ecosystem under the tree like it's all feeding each other it's like it's divine there's a plan right here and if this is a plan for this particular area then there's a plan for me maybe all of these things are making sense in some way and it really allows you to you know it really allows you to see your place in the world as something that is divine and beautiful and necessary. And that allows you to free up some of that anxiety or that depression or that emotion on some level. What do you think about a divine language that the planet's trying to communicate with us? Yeah. I think there's a saying, and I'm going to butcher it, and I can't even remember who said it, but it's like, not nature that is mute, it's us that's deaf. That sounds like something. you know, something like that. But you know, you, you take like some mushrooms and you stare at some trees and like, you can see the trees breathing and you can like see the story in each tree. I saw this one tree orange where I saw like, um, ancient animals and people like a recording of everything the tree has ever seen. It was showing me. And I was like, Oh, these trees have memories. These trees are sentient. These trees are speaking to me. These trees are breathing. And then it was another tree next to it. It was a lemon tree. And the tree said, come have a lemon. And I was like, what? You're going to give me a lemon for free? Like, what do you need in return? And the tree was like, stop drinking out of plastic bottles. Yeah. Other than that, I don't want anything. Take as many lemons as you want. I love you. I'm here to give. And I just started crying again. I was humbled. I was humbled that like the earth just gives and gives and gives and gives. And we're like, do, do, do, do, do like throwing our cigarettes out the car door. Right. Like it's. it's humbling and you see how interconnected everything is and that there's so much wisdom and all the animals start showing up and you start connecting these dots and you're like, of course there's a higher intelligence happening. It is, I think one of the most egotistical things is to be like, nah, there's nothing. Look, like open your eyes and look and you will see, you know, and again, you know, if, if I'm wrong, if all of this is wrong, who cares? Who cares? I enjoy living in the intelligence and the mystery of nature. And when a bird shows up, I know that it means something that I enjoy living my life like that. I enjoy knowing that my ancestors have my back. I enjoy knowing that the people who have passed on are part of me forever. And the love is eternal, you know, and for someone who came from my background, that's pretty awesome. And, um, And I want to go even deeper because the deeper I go, the more I can connect to other people and the more I can see other people and just be part of this oneness. They say that the universe fractaled out into billions and billions and billions of pieces so that these pieces can interact with each other so that the universe can experience itself. And sometimes through war, sometimes through death, sometimes through famine, sometimes through love, through birth, through joy, it's all part of it. It's all part of this human experience. And we will understand why when we have passed on. We'll be like, oh, and also, how hilarious was that whole thing called life? That was hilarious. And I had no idea how funny it was. I get a very strong sense that that's something that's waiting on the other side. Yeah, a sense of humor, the cosmic joke. It's interesting to think about that. And you can find the humor everywhere if you're willing to be honest and have a good laugh. I think it was Alan Watts in one of his lectures where he was talking about Satori. And he's like, you know, they say that when you finally achieve Satori, the last thing to do is have a good laugh. So I think it grows your sentiment. Yeah. Yeah. And I love Alan Watts. I know. I very much enjoy Alan Watts. Of course you brought up Alan Watts. And there are tools for us. And I've said this on the podcast before, where it's like, yes, there's loss. There's death. There's taxes. Don't get me started on taxes. There's heartbreak. There's disappointment. There's betrayal. There's also medicine. There's also puppies. There's also music. There's also kittens. You know, the balance is there if we allow it to happen. You know, there's a lot, a lot of good to help us through the tough times. And the medicine has been a very valuable ally. And the fact that these keys grow out of the ground to unlock things, they get all into bloop. It's out of the ground. Key, it's like a video game. And you can use this key to unlock to the next level. It's magical. It's magnificent. It's by design. And of course, you know, there are people that don't want us to have access to our birthright, to our God-given right to utilize these things from nature to connect to the universe and to our own hearts. Because again, it comes down to profit. You know, and I am very aware that I have a for-profit company, but it's very cheap in the long run when you think about the medical bills, the hospital bills, that you're going to save yourself by doing your healing work. And the fact that you are preparing all of this is to prepare for your death, because a successful death is a reflection of a successful life. It's like all's well that ends well, right? to be at the end of life, knowing that you have dealt with your stuff, you know, and really, really dove into your shadows and corrected your mistakes and learned your lessons. I imagine that that would bring a peaceful death. I I've seen that the people who have the hardest time dying is the people that never wanted to face themselves. And, um, And that's just something that I am not on board for. I'm really looking forward. Of course, accidents happen. You never know. You don't have control over anything. But, you know, my goal is to prepare for a death where I can exhale and know that I have done everything that I can do to be a better person, to face myself and to have faith in life. Yeah, I don't think anybody's ever saying on their deathbed, I wish I would have worked more hours or I wish I would have. You know, no one's saying I wish I would have put in more overtime. It seems to me it's like I wish I would have been a better father. I wish I would have been a better mother, better husband, a better brother, a better sister. There's research around this. Also, like definitely not. I wish I argued with more people on the Internet. Right, right. You know, like there was a meme I saw about that. I was like, that's hilarious. It's like all the hours when like Facebook was first around, I was like, like, Oh my God. Like I look back on my old Facebook and I cringe and I invite everyone else to do that too. Because if you're not cringing on some level about your past self, have you really grown? Like a little bit, you know, in the, The thing about psychedelics and death is this just a anecdotal piece of information. The people who are dying that you serve Bufo to completely surrender. Like it's easy. I have heard someone say this is better than morphine because the ego is now dissolving at the end of life. Right. And so there's less need to protect yourself. Is this going to kill me? Am I safe? What's going to come up? You know, it, especially if you're dying and you're doing this type of work, you know, it seems, it seems like peanut butter and jelly, psychedelics and death, you know, right. Context again, not saying psychedelics are for everybody. There's nothing on this planet that's for everybody. But I do believe it's like peanut butter and jelly sandwich. They really goes together because it's learning. It's learning to die before you die. And that's what psychedelics can help you with. Yeah, it's a beautiful point. Rome, you've been incredibly gracious with your time. We're walking right up to that, right up to that magical point that I told you we would go to. And we have a little bit of time left. I was hopeful that maybe you could tell people if they were where they can find you, what you have coming up and what you're excited about. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that invitation. So I have a company called Mycology Psychology and We are a microdosing and integration company. We're a collective. We have community calls the second Saturday of every month. For those who are curious, you can find us on Instagram at Mycology Psychology. And please follow our backup page because meta is being very weird to mushroom people. Go to our website, www.mycologypsychology.com to learn more. Sign up for our newsletter. where we share wisdom from the mushroom two times a month, you know, and, and yeah, like just, we're going to do more community calls because we're seeing that the community calls are really helpful for people, you know, and we really, really believe that, you know, the The preparation is even more important than the integration because in the psychedelic community, people are constantly talking about integration, integration, integrate, integrate, integrate. But preparation is the primer. And, you know, particularly with microdosing, because it's so subtle, it's really helpful to have someone to prime with. And so our consult is free. We don't charge for that. We just want to give you the tools on your microdosing journey so that you kind of like Have the bike so that you can pedal and move forward. Really quick story about why PrEP is important. Well, actually, this is more integration. But being able to explain to somebody that microdosing is not just a mood enhancer is really important because expectation is also a primer. That anger might come up. Sadness may come up. But the difference is this. Suddenly, you're able to feel these emotions without looping in your mind, without perseverating. It's the looping that makes us feel stuck. You know, back to your earlier question, like how do you process these things? They cannot be processed with the mind. The mind is trying to keep you safe from the feelings that you're holding in your heart and your body. That's the mind's job. It's an overprotective parent. It's a little bit misguided sometimes, right? It just wants to keep you safe. It does not care about you being happy, okay? So when you're microdosing, it can drop you a little bit from the mind into the heart and the body. And you can feel these emotions from an observer standpoint without perseverating and go through it in a linear way instead of in a spiral, which keeps you stuck in this wheel of samsara. And of course, you know, with the larger medicine journeys, those are extremely valuable as well. If anybody has any questions, you can email me at Rome at mycologypsychology.com. I've really enjoyed talking to you, George. Thank you. Likewise. It's an awesome conversation. And hang on briefly afterwards. I know you've got to go, but I'll talk to you briefly afterwards. Everybody within the sound of my voice, go down to the show notes, check out Rome's page, reach out to her, get on that community call. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to reach out. That's all we've got, ladies and gentlemen. I hope you have a beautiful weekend. Aloha.