ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the true life podcast I hope everybody's having a beautiful day a beautiful new year I hope the sun is shining and the birds are singing hope the wind is at your back everybody knows me from who listens to this podcast my name is george I focus so much on trying to make sense of so many of the questions out there for me i For the last few years, I've been focusing on just the philosophy, some psychology, but mostly this world of altered states, like psychedelics. How does that change the way you perceive the world? How does it change the way you have relationships with yourself and the people around you? And when you do begin to change the relationships with yourself and the people around you, do you change the world? Is that what we're kind of seeing right now? Well, that's a little bit about me, but let me just go ahead and introduce my guest we have today. So today we embark on a transformative journey into the vibrant intersection of consciousness, research, ethics, and the rich living history of the international psychedelic movement. Our guide is none other than Tom Sabrowski, a passionate seeker of mind-expanding knowledge, a serious scholar of psychedelic studies, and someone who knows how to keep the journey groovy with just the right dose of humor. Tom's work transcends the boundaries of psychedelic experience itself, diving deeply into the ethical and historical dimensions that shape this fascinating field. He invites us to explore the untold chapters of the psychedelic movement, uncovering insights that challenge our perspectives, expand our awareness, and remind us that the pursuit of knowledge is as much an adventure as it is an awakening. So open your mind, settle into the moment and prepare for an enlightening conversation that promises to leave you inspired and maybe just a little more curious about the mysteries of consciousness. Tom, thank you for being here today. How are you? Thank you very much for having me here, George, and for the wonderful invitation. Yes, thank you. Yeah, the pleasure is all mine. I've spoken to my audience quite a bit about how I got involved in psychedelics, and it came from a relationship that I had when I was younger of experimentation and just going out and having fun. And then as I got older, into my thirties and forties, it became... I began to really foster a new relationship with him, particularly after my son had passed away. It really helped me begin to understand there's a lot more going on, and looking for meaning is something that can help you find purpose in life. What about you, Tom? What was your circuitous route? Yes. thank you so I will not talk too much about my personal experiences because my supervisors recommended me to not do so in the public discourse but of course of course I can talk something about my journey and I'm still young so I'm now like twenty four years old and I discovered psychedelics here around six years ago and it all happened in amsterdam so where else right so European Union because I'm originally from Germany and in the European Union, of course, that's the first place where something magical can happen. And yeah, afterwards, yeah, I've read a lot of articles then and I went deeper and deeper into the whole community and on the road for psychedelic discovery, self-discovery, but also intellectual discovery. And so at this time I started to study history and philosophy. And I always felt that urge to dive into philosophical thematics, for example, but also into historical thematics. And I think now I'm going to become more and more of a psychedelic historian who embarks on time travels with an expanded consciousness. I would describe it like that. And yeah, so for me, it is pretty nice to speculate about history and also philosophy because it connects different generations of all fields of work through shared knowledge and also respect, for example, for the past. And I think that is a little bit my quest that I want to follow inside of the psychedelic community and especially inside of the research. And yeah, one or some thematics that I were interested in the last year into where, for example, the psychedelic counterculture movement in the nineteen sixties, especially in the USA, but also in Germany. And then, for example, also the development of the Silicon Valley and how that interfered with the psychedelics. And in my master thesis especially, I explored how Timothy Leary and the Harvard Circle tried to build up the counterculture and what their kind of plan was to transform society by setting up this kind of countercultural movement. That's until now. It's exciting, you know. History is an exciting thing for me too. Whenever I hear the word history, I'm reminded by the famous quote from Orwell that goes along the lines of he who controls the future controls the past and he who controls the present controls the past. You know, history is sort of a lot of the times, or at least I used to think that history is this thing that was set in stone, but it really depends on where you're viewing history from. How do you, is that how you see the idea of history and how does that pertain to the history of psychedelics? yeah I think that history can broaden of course your perspective um especially for example in the inside of the psychedelic community as well because um for example today I think one of the biggest problem is that we are primarily prioritizing so much on medicalization and also standardization or and sometimes we put that over the rich and also context-dependent traditions that have historically guided their use, for example. And I think that modern frameworks can really benefit from a historical understanding. And this kind of historical understanding can also help to challenge normative judgments about what kind of behavior is right or wrong, or what kind of rules do we need inside of the psychedelic movement. But we can also get a lot of inspirations from it, from different fields and perspectives. Yeah, it's well said. There's so much mystique. Yeah, go ahead. There's so much mystery and mystique behind some of the characters in this last wave of psychedelics. Yeah, right, right. Hello? Hello? Oh, I think we hit like a little snag right there. I feel like there's a bit of a lag in between us all of a sudden. I'm going to have you jump off and then re-jump back on if that's okay and re-establish our connection. Oh, yeah. We were a little bit. Oh. But now we are back. Yeah. Are you here, George? Okay. Okay. I am, but I feel like there's a little bit of a delay. Like somehow our connection got a little crossed or something. Can you hear me again? I can. I can hear you, but it's a little bit... Okay, there we go. I think we're back. Yeah, now we are back. Okay. Nice. Good to see. Yes, yes. Okay, wonderful. Yes, okay. Sometimes it happens, the internet, of course. And in Germany, the internet is still bad. I don't know what's the problem over here. It's all good. Yeah, yeah. Okay, right. So yeah, I think that through history, we can have a broader perspective on protocols, also on inclusive or diverse cultural practices, particularly also for indigenous communities is important. to see or to use the history to explore what kind of benefits are in there inside of their traditions, inside of their perspective on the world. That is not based only on a kind of reductionist neurological viewpoint, for example. And I think also that history can make more or can uh yeah it is possible to make the symbolic and also the mythical context of experiences more available yeah but what what do you think about that especially because um that is also so interesting for me when it comes to the approach of psychedelics um there are some that are really trying to figure it out through this kind of for example, neurological symbol system and thinking. But then there are also others like Stanislav Grof, for example, who also tried to do this kind of empirical research on what kind of symbols emerge during the experiences. And they tried to explain it from this kind of analytical perspective. So what are you most interested into? Those are all beautiful points. And I... I admire all of them. I feel like what's interesting is sort of this spiral upwards, this double helix of science and spirituality sort of moving upwards together because you're right, there are so many people in clinical trials that are desperately looking for a way to monetize these particular chemicals. There's a lot of neurological research or neuroscientists that are trying to look inside the brain and figure out, hey, how does this connect to the five H two a receptor or what is serotonin seven? And, you know, and it's on some level, I see this sort of mock mockery. debate between science and spirituality as like one voice because they're both doing the same thing you know when we look at science it's probably get killed for this but science is basically prophecy it's like it's pretending to predict the future on previous relevant events you know and they don't measure all the variables they can't measure all the variables there's too many of them and the same thing with spirituality like it doesn't have all the answers either So I'm really excited to see how these two forces are sort of coming together and like shaking hands and like, okay, let's work this thing out together. I'm excited for that. And I don't know how it's going to play out. I don't know if we're going to see an explosion revolution or, but I do think the more it's tried to be kept in the medical container, the quicker and more violent it tries to get out of that medical container. yeah that's an interesting perspective of course yeah yeah I think that this kind of I think they call it from a philosopher philosophical standpoint they call it a naturalistic approach uh to to look at things with data and more with this kind of empirical research and where you also have the symbol system uh that they use in neurology and so on And I also, I really like it and it is quite necessary to have this kind of empirical data and to build better and better models of, for example, consciousness. But yeah, at the same time, I also think that now is the biggest challenge to integrate these kind of different approaches like the spiritual or this kind of naturalistic approach into a coherent whole maybe also for something like psychedelic therapy so that different persons have can find some meaning inside of that yeah I love the idea. What do you think? How can a kind of transformation look like, especially when these different fields merge together? Did you hear me? I did. I'm just thinking. I'm thinking of... It's a good question. In my opinion... In my opinion, I look at – there's a really awesome paper that was done by Dr. Rick Strassman and Abigail Calder who's out of Switzerland. And they went in and they changed – it's like a questionnaire that they talk about on how to really discern what's going on in the altered states when people are under the influence of some of these particular drugs. And what Abigail did to that particular study was define meaning in a different way. And I think this is an example of this in the lab, in science. The older people who brought us that last wave sort of – coming and talking to the next generation of people like yourself or Abigail. And they're, they're bringing this idea of science, but when you start adding meaning as a variable into the scientific world, that becomes a whole nother dimension. And like, I do see that spiraling together, right? Like you can kind of squint your eyes. You can see them kind of merging. Yeah, right. And it's also so interesting because why is it that I, for example, start to study history and philosophy and somebody else starts to study neurology or anything like that? And how can psychedelics then help to make communication possible between this kind of disciplines? and that's also the the wonderful thing that I love around the whole psychedelic field that we are so that there are so many different perspectives and it is such an interdisciplinary field and so yeah and that's the next thing why I think there is really something into it where we can yeah make some kind of new enlightenment process possible because also in history uh I mean, during the industrialization process, for example, in this first kind of enlightenment movement, or how we call it in Germany, the Aufklärung, it was a lot about this kind of interdisciplinary coming together, creating new values and and also perspectives on how the world works out and thinking deeply about the relation of consciousness to matter and so on. And yeah, I think that the psychedelics could really bring this kind of new way of perceiving the world through these altered states of consciousness. Yes. I do. What is the state of psychedelics where you're at over there? I know Amsterdam has a policy of sort of it's illegal, but you can get it. And I know Romania seems to have a similar type of posture. But what is the world of psychedelics over there like for you and people that live there? Yeah. Germany is far behind. Okay, it is not that far behind. We have first trials, also clinical trials. For example, Gerhard Gründer, he is a professor, I guess in Mannheim, and he is doing some research. But also the MIND Foundation is doing research in Berlin now, and they are also starting with the first training program for psychedelic therapy. But in the broader, for example, in Germany, last year we had the legalization of cannabis. But now a new government will be elected and it doesn't look good. So it is quite possible that the new government will be extremely conservative and that they will do many things to undo the reformation of the drug policy. And I think the biggest hope inside of Europe are still the Netherlands, because I've also made last year a lot of great connections to different persons from the Netherlands, also in the psychedelic research field. they have the best possibilities to do studies there and also to set up training programs that are not only limited on the medicalization part and that are not limited by so many constraints. And I think that is a good hope. Maybe also Portugal could be a hope in the future because they also have a more liberal drug policy there. But yeah, we will see how things emerge. Of course. Yeah, it's skeptical. That is also the thing. I'm also a little bit skeptical because I think that so many people are now like, oh, yeah, we will reach the next levels so easily. Everything is opening up. And of course, that's true. Also, a lot of younger people in my generation, they are making these kind of experiences and they also start to think about how to build a career on that or anything like that but um but I still think that it will take a long a long time until we really enter such an open society. Because at the same time, we have a lot of crisis and that is something that was also so interesting for me from a historical standpoint, because I did this kind of research on the nineteen sixties and it was for me, it was pretty important to research how Timothy Leary and his research team or why they did this kind of counter-cultural movement because it was a response to the u.s crisis of the and there were a lot of crisis nationalism racism classism conformism consumerism dogmatism excessive bureaucracy all that you know and and sometimes I feel like we can see a lot of these symptoms also in today's society in the us but also in europe again and um That's also why I think sometimes maybe a little bit more of a new counterculture movement could be important, could be important. But yeah, I don't want to be the Timothy Leary over here. My super advisors wouldn't recommend that. I agree. I think there's a lot of similarities and, you know, and it may take, sometimes I think we're still at the beginning stages as much as you and I live and breathe in this world of psychedelics. And we're so curious and we're trying to figure everything out. I think on some level, it takes a while to fully see the changes that happen to society. Once these have left the, the, the, ivory tower or the medical container on some level. But, you know, when you start looking at like the parent, maybe your parents or parents, like my daughter, like they see just how corrupt and how violent and how unforgiving people are in their relationships towards one another, their community. And it's, it's, it feels like we're so pulling away. I think that the next generation, like yourself included in the next ones after that are going to be the people that are are creating all the necessary changes, but they're seeing the pain that their parents are going through. They're seeing the, like the, the upright, like the yellow vest or the Antifa, whatever movement you want to see, they're all symptoms of the same corrupt system. And there's gotta be changed first. First day. What was Gandhi's great quote? First day, ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. And then you win. I think we're still in the, we're just coming up on the fighting stage, you know, but they've ignored it for a long time. They began making fun of it. And we'll probably got some more ridicule coming our way. But what do you tell me some of your thoughts on on the on the sixties, what you've learned and how they are applicable to today? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. So I really love your revolutionary words. And thank you again for your for your great response. Yeah. So yeah, of course. What my research. So as I mentioned, I think one important thing was that Timothy Leary and his friends, they faced several crises at this time, like nationalism, racism and so on. and um for them also this kind of individualized possessiveness in a capitalistic economic model with fixed role models also especially when you look at the nuclear families they were extremely heteronormative for example so the women said to to do the dishes and so on and so on and then there were also a lot of exaggerated anti-communism the vietnam war was then going on the cold war behavior of some kind of military industrial complex and there was even a possible nuclear annihilation and that were like the big discourses of of that time I would say and all symptoms of this kind of crisis. But of what kind of crisis? A crisis of men, as they would say. And also of the eye, because that's also the biggest question. What is the eye and why is the eye doing such stupid things? to each other to the other eyes and um for them it was also a lot about the symbol system that was controlled in their opinion by a white middle class by an old white middle class and um this kind of symbol system was the reason why people's alienation from their inner knowledge and the supposed others was promoted instead so the ego's desire for control over the external world was increased and for them The problem was that the political and educational system were geared towards creating something they call conditioned robot people in a TV game studio. And there you have this kind of also critic on modern consumerism, like, for example, with the television that came up during this time, it was possible that you just you went to the work in the morning and then you got home and your little house and then You watched TV all day, drank your beer, and then again. And you never had the time and the space to reflect on the deeper questions of life. What am I? What are we doing here? Why am I here? What is suffering? And so on and so on. And so they criticize that a lot. Then, and that's the interesting thing about that, they thought a lot about how to change that, especially with the help of psychedelics. And for Leary, especially, psychedelics played a big role. I really recommend you one thing to write, to read this book, The Politics of Ecstasy. So that is one from the nineteen sixty eight, or it was my main source for writing this master thesis. And it is an interesting book because there are different essays and interviews collected where you can read more about the spirit of the nineteen sixties and how they viewed the society and also how they interpreted the psychedelic experiences. And for them, the psychedelics had the possibility to open up persons again or human beings or whatever we are to this kind of questions. What am I? What am I doing here? Why am I suffering? How can I get out of it? What is the basic energy of the universe or anything like that? And yeah, and then they then they thought a lot about how can we make it accessible for more persons? And especially at this time, a lot of young persons were born. It was after the Second World War, so a lot of younger people emerged into the world and they thought a lot about how to overthrow this kind of corrupt symbolic system that brought so much pain inside of the world. And for that, it was necessary to start a counterculture. So against this kind of normative culture that was already established, they had to do something like a counterculture, but together with the youngsters and with the also creative ones and with the nationally and racist-aligned ones. So it was a lot about bringing different groups together that were not fitting inside of the normative construction of what the US American society at this time should be like. And yeah, I think I can talk the whole day. But yeah, just to wrap it up. And yeah, then it was pretty interesting because they gathered together at first in the Harvard University because Timothy Leary, he was a former Harvard professor and also his closest circle like Ram Dass and also Richard Alpert and Ralph Metzner, but many others also. were a lot of persons from different kind of fields and backgrounds so it was an interdisciplinary circle and they and and then they crossed the point where the established system um was a little bit scared by their approach to the psychedelics and abandoned and then things went pretty wild so somebody from the hitchcock family um they uh helped them to to get a big house a big villa and a big estate uh and then yeah they trip bolts over there together together and build up this kind of counter garage movement and also a lot of of course problematic situations occurred during this time but um also a lot of really inspiring and interesting things that they have experienced there. And they really worked out some kind of philosophy that was a lot about inner freedom and how to create a space where inner freedom can be expressed and where human beings can try to get rid of their socialization processes and their symbol systems that were put inside of their minds during their upbringing and during their biographical life process. Okay, that's it. It's beautiful, man. I'm glad. Feel free to carry on as long as you want. It's really good information. I think you bring up some phenomenal points about Culture in the first four letters of culture being cult and what kids are taught to believe and this idea of a shared sacrifice and shared goal that really wasn't shared amongst the people. It was shared amongst a few people at the top that wanted to maintain power. And it's interesting to think about it from that angle. Mm hmm. I think it was Huxley. I think Huxley had a different idea when it comes to the six. He wanted to have like some of the people in charge, like instead of being combative, like why don't we go to these people and be like, look, this is it right here. Why don't you guys come and check it out and see what you can help guide us? What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, and that's completely right. And that was also a big discourse at this time. So Huxley and Osmond, they had another viewpoint. And for Huxley, Timothy Leary was at one point something like a little bit a new... Not like a new, yeah, right. Like a new Adolf Hitler. I think that was what Huxley was saying about Timothy Leary. And of course, it is a little bit hilarious. And also Timothy Leary said later on, yeah, a lot of people projected different figures inside of me. For some, I was the red, how is it called? If you catch the reds, this kind of historical figure in English, the red, do you know it? this kind of figure a pie piper yeah yeah right the red piper yeah for some I was something like the red piper who seducted the youngsters or the devil or anything like that and for others I wear the prophet and the messiah and so on and so on and so and but that's us is so interesting about this kind of counter-cultural figure of timothy lewey because uh he somehow managed it to become this kind of projection a person or where everybody could project their images, their archetypical images also into him and into his actions. And that is also pretty interesting about this trickster personality. And the trickster differs a lot from the approach that Huxley had or that also Osman had because they were more like today Yeah, like many scientists see it today that we have to be aware about how the society will react to psychedelic research and to the way we are doing psychedelic therapy or anything like that. And we need this kind of a more elitistic approach where we have good concepts and stable concepts and only do something like psychedelic therapy. But psychedelics are not meant for a broader mass movement or for anything like that. And yeah, and that was an interesting historical clash. And I think we will see this kind of clash also more in the future when psychedelics are going more and more into the public again. And yeah, my personal point of view is so I can understand both perspectives. And I think we need both perspectives. So I think we need the Timothy Leary's or the far out visionaries, but we also need the others Huxley's who really try to reduce the risk and to do more for safety and for safe usage. but I also really like it to see psychedelics as more than just therapeutic drugs or anything like that for me because they have so many implications and my main goal is to reduce the kind of normativity that is imposed on any kind of psychedelic experience or interpretation of altered states of consciousness yeah Yeah, it's really well said. What are your thoughts on that, especially on this controversy? Because I think you're awesome on this kind of transformation guide, right? Yeah. Yeah, I... A large part of me is waiting with bated breath and white knuckles to start seeing day glow school buses, start charging down the street and the new electric Kool-Aid acid test starting to happen. Yeah, totally. Like I see it, you know, on some level, but maybe on some level it was a mistake to be so combative. You know, I, the older I get, the more I think like maybe the people in charge are would be more amiable if we let them play a part. But it doesn't have to be, let's put this in the water. Even though there's times in my life where I think that's a fantastic idea, you'll probably get yelled at for that. But on some level, how do you get... My personal journey has gone from, yeah, let's put it in the water to... Okay, that's a horrible idea. Let's try to find a way to make it better. And the conclusion I come up with is every individual has to become the very best version of themselves, and that will change the fundamental ways that we see the world. It's sort of the bottom-up approach, but it's slow going. And if you're too idealistic, you don't see it. You're like, ah, it's not working at all. But I talk to people all day long that it's working. I spoke with a gentleman, I won't name any names, but a while back who was a pharmacist and he had went down and did some therapy and came back and is like, I can't be a pharmacist anymore. These drugs are killing people and I'm giving them to them. And here's a guy that went to school for a large part of his life and he had a nice place and he had a good life and he just had this idea of like, You know what? I'm so unhappy because of what I'm doing. I never wanted to do this. And that to me shows winning. That to me shows people doing their own homework and figuring out why they're unhappy and psychedelics being a part of it. We're going to change it from each individual. So it seems slow, but I think it's contagious. And maybe the revolution is a revolution in individuality on some level that changes the whole thing. Yeah, that's interesting that you mentioned that. Yeah, right. And I think there are also some, uh, I've read some research papers about that, especially about the emergent emergency of the neoliberal self model. That was also a little bit influenced by the psychedelics in the nineties, sixties. So that, uh, for the first time, of course, people were aware about the eye more or about their care. individual possibilities but at the same time that sometimes led to a kind of lack of responsibility maybe or to some kind of lack of of yeah seeing the others and also the suffering of the others and I think it also makes perfectly sense with the psychedelic experience because ego inflation is quite possible yeah yeah And we all have to be pretty much aware about how we see ourselves after deep psychedelic experiences. Yeah. But it's great what you have mentioned. Of course. Yeah. I also think that is kind of individual. Yeah. And it is about the eye because you only have minimal control about the eye. But then it's also the question what even has the control or is it just a dynamic process of self organization? multiple levels of reality that are producing this kind of experience and this kind of feeling like I myself. Have you ever read Thomas Metzinger, for example? Thomas Metzinger? Thomas Metzinger, yeah. What did he write? Or just... yeah ego tunnel you should really read it it is an interesting take um also from a psychedelic perspective I really like it and he is more this kind of naturalistic uh guy and has a naturalistic approach to the also psychedelics uh um but yeah he is pretty fascinating definitely I'll definitely check it out I it's interesting to hear the language of psychedelics you know sometimes in a deep state or an altered state of consciousness or big doses of lsd or psilocybin you know you you fall into this place where you can't talk you just mumble you're just spinning up sounds yeah totally totally man you know but meanwhile in your mind everything is firing like you have all these crazy ideas and you understand sort of the geometry of language if that makes sense you oh it fits together like that maybe you're processing in different parts of the brains but You know, it's it's interesting to see how much the sixties counterculture came up with different terms like far out and like all this different language that helped describe the society at that time. Do you think that's happening right now? oh yeah yeah I think that is also happening right now yes especially what was so special about the was this kind of movement to the far east so it was the first generation that tried to get a lot of symbols from india or from japan and so on and um And that was also part of a big historical possibility because then we had some kind of airplanes to move to another location and the cars and everything like that. And it wasn't possible before that. So that is also so interesting. And I think today, especially with the Internet, things are moving on much faster. And now we have this kind of more pluralistic possibility of getting access to different philosophies and religious views and so on. But at the same time, we also see that a broad variety of people is not really like using that to broaden their consciousness. And yeah, we still have this kind of nationalistic tendencies. And that's also something that is interesting about the phenomena of the Internet and how how more possibilities are open but at the same time uh maybe we are over in for yeah over informed or anything like that and that's why we then try to reduce again the complexity and stick with the old uh paradigmatic uh behavior and systems yeah I don't know what what do you think about that yeah I think we need new symbols like we did back then like the The idea of... Something I've been working on a little bit is like... In Germany, you have the concept of schadenfreude, right? Where you get a little bit happy that something bad happens to somebody else. What was the word? Schadenfreude? Schadenfreude? Schadenfreude, yeah. I think in the English language... There could be more linguistic pathways that lead to bigger, more complex ideas, sort of like another dimension on Sapir-Whorf theory. If we can create that, I think that that's sort of where the revolution comes from is you start putting out these words that adults don't know. And what does that word mean? There was a lot of that back then where you don't trust anybody over thirty, man. They're squares. They don't know what they're talking about. On some level, I think we're seeing these new symbols begin to emerge. And I think that that's what's going to create the revolution. Let's do this thought experiment, Tom. Let's do this. Let's pretend that you and I are – going to build a counterculture, a revolution, you as the historian that you saw some of the building blocks that pushed forward this revolution, where should we start at, man? What do we do? Okay, okay. Revolution, okay. At first, we have together around us a little group of more persons, of course. And that should be persons from... multiple disciplines so not limited on one kind of approach to reality or or anything like that and then of course we need a good location um so something a little bit not inside of a big city it must be abroad maybe um yeah near a forest with a wonderful lake nearby. And then we need, of course, a lot of psychedelics and a lot of time also to explore these kind of altered states and use our creative potential and our neurons to combine our mind capacity to connect with each other brain to brain and soul to soul and eye to eye with the other people and then try to use every kind of possibility that our human body has to represent the inner experiences to the outside. We can do singing, we can do dancing, we can paint, we can write, we can do poetry and so on and so on and so on. And by that we can slowly but carefully learn how to hold each other, how much complexity we have in our one hundred billion neurons. and unleashing more and more this kind of potential and also creating new symbol systems. But, and now comes the big but, the biggest problem is that everybody of us brings his ego games into this kind of complex new system. and first conflicts will evolve and first problems will occur what do we do with sexuality what what are we doing with uh yeah with interpersonal conflicts and so on and so on and so on and how can we solve these kind of problems too and then we have to establish something like protocols or something like structures again and also guidelines because a complete anarchy wouldn't work that Well, and then we will see the first power dynamics kicking in, I guess. And that's also an interesting moment because then we will see that some individuals try to be a little bit better than the others in different areas. And then we have to think about how to handle this kind of power, for example. Then we also have to think about how to handle money and so on and so on and so on. So there are a lot of problems that have to be solved and how we distribute resources. And yeah, but in the end, it will be a funny experience. But I think. And during this time, we can unleash a lot of creative processes. But after this whole process is finished, that's what happened in Millbrook, especially in the nineties. And there will be a point where this kind of new enlightenment process is quite finished and because there are some deep conflicts or anything like that or the individuals are trying to concentrate on something different and then everybody will move to another direction But during this time, of course, it is possible to learn a lot of great things, I guess. But you also have to be willing to get rid of your whole ego identity inside of the established system. And the biggest question is who really wants to do that? And yeah, that's the thing. Yeah. There's a lot of fear. It's hard to leave. It's hard to walk away from a job where you make a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year. It's hard to walk away from certainty and go and, you know, rewild yourself on a level that is that is difficult we got our question we got a question coming in here from yeah yeah he just told us that it was really refreshing thank you yeah yeah thank you yeah it's I I'm hopeful I think that that um on some level those people that and we've seen it we've we've sort of seen it with like the yellow vest movement we've kind of seen it with um the protesters that descended on wall street, you know, back in the two thousands, we see it in these cycles. And I'm, I'm hopeful that we're going to find ways to, to figure out how to move the revolution of self into the mainstream. Sometimes I, you go down this, sometimes I realize, see some similarities with such an aging demographic of boomers. Like there's so many people in the world right now that are over the age of fifty or sixty. And that has a profound effect on the status quo. Yes. The only people that are watching TV are people in their sixties. And you know that the advertisers have that all figured out. That's why you can, at least in the United States, you can see these drug commercials or you have Fox or CNN, which is chocolate and vanilla, but still ice cream. You know what I mean? So it's interesting to see the demographic change. What's your thoughts on the demographics? Yeah, of course. I think especially in the US, you had this during the election. It was at first the possibility of voting for an eighty year old man or an eighty year old man. And I also think that democracy is really in danger if you only have these kind of possibilities. it is also a little bit interesting for us as europeans to see that you only have like this two big parties inside of the us um but of course also in the european countries things are not better at all because we also have these kind of demographic problems but I would also say that's also the interesting tendency for example when it comes to the more right-winged movements and also conservative movements um they are There are not that much old people that are voting them, but also a lot of young people, especially in Germany, like with the alternative for Germany or for Deutschland. They are also voted by a lot of younger people. And like Elon Musk, he connected now with them and he supports them and so on. And this kind of tendency is... Yeah, it's also problematic because they are only trying to Yeah, they are living from hate. They are living from really low emotions and frequency, from all the fear, from the hate, from the grief, and so on, and so on, and so on. And it tells a lot about our society and what most people feel inside of the society when they vote for persons like that, yeah. And I think that is really frustrating and also sad to see. yeah yeah and now it's also the biggest problem how can we open the persons up again to love and joy and uh yeah embracing life yeah it pulls back the curtain on on the ideas of corruption you know when you when you're constantly being propagandized when you're constantly being lied to about fear and death and these people or those people or this team you know like who are they who is this yeah They are us. They are us. And there's a bigger problem that's stopping us from moving forward, and that's us realizing that whether – I have no problem against the Russian people, the Ukrainian people, the Israeli people, or the Gaza people, but the governments in control are a giant problem. These people don't care at all. It seems to me that there's a different agenda for governments versus the people they govern. Mm-hmm. yeah that's that's the biggest question of course yeah I I also I can't say too much to the power dynamics also what or how governments are considering their kind of tendency of building narratives But yeah, it's somehow it's somehow just crazy. I also think that in politics and that's I think also one thing that is pretty important for me when it comes to this kind of conspiracy theory, because also inside of the psychedelic field, we see a lot of this tendency to be extremely against the establishment. And that is also part of the nineteen sixties tradition, of course. And it is so important to be critical and also to question authority and just say, you know, out of a village. Yeah. But but at the same time, I also wonder because, for example, there were a lot of people that voted for Trump and for JFK because they were like, yeah, they will legalize psychedelics and then everything will be fine. But this is like a single vote decision and they also vote for all the other problematic behaviors that such persons produce over there. And so that is a little bit interesting for me to see. And yeah, here's a question. Does the recent U.S. election – does the recent U.S. election a sign of culture shift, a corresponding increased interest in the self and our place in the world? I think on some level it does show a culture shift, even though, like you said earlier – It's sort of a false choice. You can have this eighty year old white guy or this eighty year old white guy. It's still an eighty year old white guy that's probably pretty cemented in the way that he thinks and he does. Of course, all of us want to have a change in culture. However, the song usually remains the same. The politician usually... says yes I'll do all these things when they get in power it's you know it's business as usual like especially for the united states like we have zero it seems to me the american the regular american individuals have zero say in foreign policy it doesn't matter who gets in power you're still going to war you know and I know the people are sick of that but I do hope there's a culture shift there and in a better interest what is your thoughts on this question right here tom yeah yeah right so um of course I'm not living in the us um and I only get the the media washed intentions that's also the or informations that's also a little bit the thing um yeah And it's still a big question for me. So how much focus on the self, for example, is good. And because it also has to do a lot with responsibility for others, for example, and for our common sufferings. And so if you interpret the US elections as a corresponding increased interest in the self, then it can also be that it is an corresponding increase in self selfishness behavior or self-interest or anything like that but that is not so good when it comes to something like caring about other nations and their problems or caring about how to connect different kind of people from different parts of the world so that they can enjoy life and and embrace the kind of shared values or anything like that and um yeah and I think that is a little bit of problem because right now it looks like trump and also his administration tries to establish a new kind of hegemony and uh a more like dictatorship behavior in my opinion or in my viewpoint and it is not about opening up to many different subcultures or to include them but to really do some kind of normative or to construct some kind of normative society yeah but that's my personal point of view on that yeah yeah i One of the things I really like about psychedelics is that it prepares you for uncertainty and uncertainty, whether it's in politics or banking or in your life or in relationships. Sometimes under a large dose of psychedelics, you find yourself panicking because you're thinking about things that you don't want to think about. And there's no escape from it. You know, you just sit there. Oh. oh, no, oh, this thing is happening, you know, and you just have to sit with it. I think psychedelics teaches you that there are things that are far beyond your control. And the more you worry about them, the worse you make them. You know, this too shall pass. And for the experienced psychedelic user, it seems to me that this is a very valuable tool in the tool bag because there are things in our government, there are things that we can't control, only our reaction to it on some level. That's one. Yeah. That's it. Yeah, and I see it the same way as a client put it in the chat that the sustainable positive change is a change in the individual again and how we react to this kind of problems that are occurring. And I also think or for me personally, it is about that meeting here together with you, for example, from another part of the world. talking about the psychedelics but also a lot of other thematics and it is about that coming together with other people communicating face to face uh brain to brain so to soul and uh yeah try to figure out what that all is about and how we can live a kind of better life yeah Clint Kiles. What's up, Clint? Thanks for hanging out with us, buddy. Clint Kiles has an amazing podcast called The Psychedelic Christian Podcast. Everyone should definitely check it out. He says, I think a sustainable, positive change in culture will come slowly through education, not through political power games. I like that. Yeah, me too. I think that education is always changing. If we look back to Huxley's His discography, you can see the doors of perception, brave new world, and then the island towards the end. It's almost like you got to see, oh, he's showing us education in real time. You may have this period of disassociation where – George will take tons of modafinil to go drive a truck for twenty hours a day. And then all of a sudden you get towards the island and you're like, maybe we could be having ceremonies with a child in a church and showing them how their brain really works at the age of fourteen, like a rite of passage or something like that. So I think we're seeing the reflective nature of our education in real time on some level. We start looking at the the books, our lives. I think there's like an Ariadne thread that runs through it. Completely, yeah. I can only agree on that, yeah. Thank you, George. Yeah, so I got a question coming in for you, Tom, and it says, what advice would you give to someone who's curious about exploring psychedelics for the first time, especially in a conscious and ethical way? Yeah, that's an interesting question. So, The first things that I recommend to people that ask me about that is that they should be careful um about their personal situation that they are in right now because um when it is about dissolving the ordinary boundaries of the ego um of course you can be exposed to repressed emotions to unresolved traumas or existential fears and without a stable ego this flood of material can overwhelm the psyche that can has a problematic um yeah conclusions so um I think it is pretty important to highlight at first also this uh yeah problematic parts but then I would recommend them to search for a trustful trip sitter or facilitator to search out a spot near nature where they can be on their own for maybe three days that would be the best and then um yeah they can experience their whatever they want to experience I also that is also the thing I would recommend them to do it introvertive but I would also recommend them to do to go outside and to explore nature and to connect with uh what is out there yeah and to embrace it and yeah in the end it's just the medicine does it work For itself. Yeah. It is a lot about trust. I also think so. And to not get too much into the existential anxieties or fears. Yeah, it's a beautiful way to put it. I would really minimal. Yeah. I really like this kind of minimalistic approach to not be like, yeah, you have to follow this protocol and do that and that and that, that. Yeah. Because I think if you just respect this basic setting and dosage protocol, then it is already pretty good. And then also the individuals can learn from time to time more and more what they can do or should not do. Yeah. I like that. I think that's beautiful information, and it brings up the question. Some of these particular compounds have been around longer than people, and people throughout time have used them to find their way. And when you look at it from that aspect, there's all this rhetoric about abuse or – behavior that is unbecoming and people taking advantage of people. And there's a lot of truth to that. However, the majority of people that use them in a recreational setting or an exploratory setting, not only are they okay, but they figure out how to fix themselves. And that's kind of what scares medicine is like, Hey, they're going to figure out that we don't, they don't need us, man. You guys need us. I got a lab coat on and a clipboard. You need me. That's true. That's true. It's a whole new position for the pharaohs also because it is their purpose to hold space, to not really heal the others, but to hold space so that the healing process can take place. It's interesting. So here's an interesting question coming back to us too. And it says, I just had it pulled up here. This one is coming from This one is coming from Desiree in Palm Desert. She says, how do you, Tom, envision your work contributing to the broader psychedelic movement? And what impact do you hope it will have on the world? yeah okay that's a big question my impact on the world yeah yeah yeah so so at first I'm happy if I can help some people but yeah I'm not I'm not going to become the second timothy okay okay yeah yeah so so what is so special for me is um yeah to think about uh And I think it goes more and more into this direction to try to reflect the normativity that is inside of the psychedelic community and also to help people inside of the psychedelic community to embrace the tension that is in conflicts between different disciplines. uh between um different world views and to see it as part of the whole and because I'm I'm also as a historian and a little bit philosophical inspired person I like Or I feel like the post-structuralistic approach could be beneficial for the psychedelic community in the future. So since the nineteen sixties, Michel Foucault, he was a French philosopher. He constructed especially how power over mental health. is examined by the psychiatric system and how different tools emerged for social control, especially in his book Madness and Civilization. He wrote about that. And I think it is a lot about questioning these kind of practices and they try to enforce societal norms or to legitimize authority by institutions, for example, and to help individuals to think for themselves again. And yeah, with my with my work, I want to do that to inspire other persons to go on the journey, to open up to their intuitive knowledge, to figure it out for themselves and connecting with other persons and living a creative and fulfilling life. Yeah. And if I can do that for some persons or inspire them with my work, that's wonderful. Yeah, I'm already happy. Yeah. I think that you are well on the way, man. You got your master's theory out there, your study. If the best predictor of future behavior is past relevant behavior, I think that you are studying the necessary people to create a better future for people, create that ripple effect on some level. Right, right. It's about that. It is. We got another one for you. It says, instead of focusing on psychedelics to heal, could they be better used to redefine what mental health means? Yeah. Yes, I really think so. And that is also connected to this kind of post-structuralistic viewpoint because mental health frameworks often adhere to narrow definitions of normal behavior. and or emotions, for example. But yeah, of course, the psychedelics expose you to altered states of consciousness, and that challenge the idea that a single mode of perception or some kind of emotion state is normal. and these experiences um normalize then the fluidity of human experience I would say it like that and that the mental health is frequent is frequently framed as an individual's responsibility I think that is also a big paradigmatic shift that we will see that uh we will now see more like the systemic or communal influences that come along with the psychedelics so that we can see and also understand more deeply that we are interconnected and that all the selves are influencing each other through the actions and through the informations that they are sharing. And by that mental health care can also often focuses on like daily functioning and avoiding deeper spiritual existential questions. And I think that can also change. So that we have something more like an existential approach to therapy to not cover only the surface level, but to go deep and to create spaces where people can ask deeper questions to create a more meaningful life. And psychedelic frequently, of course, evoke these kind of profound existential and spiritual insights. And that helps individuals to grapple with life's big questions and reframe their place in the world. And that's where, in my opinion, real healing can take place because the answers are already there. You just have to get back the information. Yes, yes to all of that. That was beautiful. It's beautiful. It's so true, man. Yeah. You know, I was talking with someone earlier earlier this morning and um we got on sort of this big idea of big changes and big questions in the in the the way it started was you know back in the medieval medieval times they had like a radical shift in perspective you know some of the paintings like and it changed the way people interacted in the world because they had a new idea of depth perception and perspective artwork and like that changed everything for a lot of people maybe it changed it probably changed as humans And then the next one that I thought about was in one of the first moving pictures, people went to the movie theaters and they saw this train. And they thought – like they saw it on the screen and they all jumped out of their seats because they thought that train was going to come through the screen and run them over. They didn't realize that. I know that one. Yes. Okay. That too, a radical shift in perception that changed us, all of us on some level. Yeah. It's that whole hundred monkeys thing, and these seemingly small things that happen are radical shifts in the way we live our lives forever. I think we are in the midst of that right now, and you can see it happening everywhere, changing the framework of healthcare. The language changing. You and I having our revolutionary meeting on the Internet here. It's changing so fast you don't see it. We're not going to recognize them. There's going to be little things like, oh, yeah, I remember when we thought that. That was so silly. We thought the DSM was about people when it was actually about society. Yeah, right. Right. Exactly. Exactly, George. Exactly. Okay, we got one more coming in here for you, Tom. And this is sort of, I think, points towards Carl Jung. It says, how might the intersection of shadow work and technology reshape our understanding of consciousness? Yeah. Yeah. I think that is also so interesting when it comes to Timothy Leary, for example, in the sixties, because during the eighties, he transformed his concept during the sixties. He said, turn on. tune in and drop out so to turn on was to be aware of your senses take for example the psychedelics and then really get into the altered state of consciousness but the tune in process was to uh yeah to to create a kind of new symbol system out of that to represent the inner experiences to transform yourself And the dropout was the final step that emerged from the tune-in process, because when you transformed yourself and you transformed the group around you and you developed together and you grew together, then the dropout was inevitable because then you already transformed also part of the society or also transformed the society on a bigger level. And then in the nineteen eighties, he reused this kind of slogan into turn on, boot up and check in. And that was when the computers emerged during the nineteen nineties or nineteen eighties. And the turn on is then this kind of awakening to a higher state of consciousness. But that has also to do with turning on, for example, the computer to use the computer as a new tool for which one your consciousness can interact, for example, with others. Then a boot up is to actively using these kind of tools to enhance our mental and also our emotional capacities. and reshaping the human experience by integrating both inner work, for example, and technological advancements. And then the check-in is to connect deeply with this technological system, for example, for virtual reality or AI or the internet. and as an extension of this kind of human cognition and also social interaction like we are doing it right now. And I think what comes to the surface then is that consciousness acts more and more as some kind of ecosystem where the cell and also the digital interact more fluidly and technology is then a partner and also the others for which which one are accessible through the technologies can help you to amplify the depths of self-exploration and also of integration. Because when I see, for example, that you struggle from some kind of existential thematics, I can also identify with that and I can see broader perspectives on that. And I think that the potential for this kind of more collective awakening, if you want to call it like that, where insights from individual shadow work contribute to society transformation is more and more possible by this kind of digital tools with which one you can also solve specific problems that you have. Like, for example, with JetGPT, it's quite crazy whenever or many times I have a question and I just put it into JetGPT and then it gives me some nice answers and it is so specific and so it's really solving my problem in a pretty easy way. So, yeah. what do you think about that especially because it is also so interesting for me how different persons perceive these kind of emergence of new technologies yeah I think that particularly these large language models are teaching us how to have meaningful dialogue you know I think so many like I use I try to use as many as I can like I use Grok or I use ChatGPT sometimes Claude But it really helps shift my perspective when I can reach out and talk to every human. And that's kind of how I think of AI is like I'm getting the opportunity to hear bits and pieces from all of us because that information has been scraped, right, from all the classics, from all the non-classics, from all the conversations, from the classrooms. And it's like contacting your higher self. And I think that when you do that, when you take time, if you're not really sure about something and you want to build a wonderful response or have a wonderful reflection on what just happened, you put it into your words and then you can have it almost interpreted into a deeper knowing. It's really, really helpful. And I think that it's not something to be afraid of. I think it's something to embrace. And I, you know, you really... I look at it like this, like I, especially with the AI models, I got this thing I'm working on called TIA, which is text, image, and audio. And when you have those three things together, now you and I can really have a conversation because we can, we have like, maybe the text is a noun, right? The image is a verb, and the language is an adverb. But we're beginning to structure language. It's almost like some entity is like, okay, you monkeys. You had the language part. You got a little bit. Okay, here's the next class for you. We're going to give you this AI tool. And now you're going to be able to make complete sentences. And you might even be able to rhyme words a little bit on some level. That's how I see the future coming. It's going to be beautiful and glorious. Not without hiccups, but it's going to be beautiful. Yeah. And that's also the funny thing about the university system, because, yes, still today it plays a lot or a big role, especially in these kind of more mind sciences, if you want to call them like that. that yeah you have to think for yourself and and you're producing a paper for example research paper and these must be your ideas or anything like that but with the ai you see more more the limits of that and I also think but this is and and I'm not not the guy who says oh that's so bad and now we will all lose our mind and everything like that and we cannot even think critical or anything like that I think yeah it's risk but I think uh like like you said that now we have more and more possibilities to uh broaden our abilities to broaden our information systems to to to express ourselves in different styles and that's great and and so there are great potentials for everybody who is creative or wants to be creative and it also challenges this kind of idea that it is an individual that is producing some kind of text or anything like that because it is not really like that I'm just a medium so during my lifetime of course I've read maybe a lot of books and I put a lot of lifetime into that and it is also necessary that I get paid for the work that I put into a product but in the end I'm just a medium and You were telling to me, other people told me their stories and so on. And I just used my brain to reduce the complexity and put out kind of new concept, a new text. New ideas. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting how it's going to change so many of our laws. Like if you look at patent law or copyright material, you start going down that rabbit hole. Yeah, right, right. There's got to be some abuse in there. yeah there is but but I also think it is not such a big problem because because yeah we we will we will just rethink um what does it mean to possess a text or anything like yeah right but then of course the biggest problem is still in my opinion that's not the biggest problem the biggest problem is still how wealth is contributed in our society to different persons and to the work that they do And what we really have to rethink is who gets the resources and who gets the ability to have a lot of money, for example, by the stock market, but is not contributing anything. And that are the rules that we have to change. And with the new technology, I think that will play a much bigger role in the future. I think what we're talking about right now is the revolution that we're in. This is all of our... This is it. We're in it right now. Yeah, maybe it is. I'm from East Germany, by the way, so we had the GDR Republic for many years. The first socialistic movement collapsed, of course, but we will see how things will play out. Is it the end of the capitalistic system, how Karl Marx would say? Yeah, we will see. It's reductio de absurdum on some level. You know what I mean? It's like this is all our – like we've all contributed to these large language models. So how do you distribute the goods of that? Like does that just go to Sam Altman and – Larry, just go to a handful of people or does everybody get a little slice of this? Because it calls into the idea of copy, right? Like it's all of ours, man. And it's always been that way. But the biggest problem is how do we get there? Because until now, it seems like the capitalistic model is still working. uh chat gpt is now privatized also or they're they're getting their uh their money that you pay and yeah maybe we will also enter the huxley or will uh uh society or I don't know yeah of course but it would be great if it is different of course yeah Yeah. It's not only change that's happening so fast. It's like the rate of change happening so fast. It used to be – it was YouTube, and then it was Rumble, and then it's Kik, and then it's TikTok, and then it's Red Note. So like what – and there's a lot of – it's funny they call it open AI, but it's not open. But there are a lot of models that you can make your own AI from. It may not be as good as that model yet, but – You know, what happens when Grok gets all their Nvidia chips, you know, and, you know, soon more and more people, there's a great book called twenty forty one that I'm actually reading right now. That's that speaks volumes of the future. And it's interesting to read and. I don't know I I just I see the revolution taking place as we're talking you know you can check gpt in your pocket it's a super computer yeah it's true that's true right right but also still a lot of people of course uh or a lot of people don't have the access or the possibilities to get access to these kind of revolutionary tools and uh yeah that's then again the big wealth gap for example yeah between different countries and also persons inside of the societies. And how can we fix that one? That is also the big question. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. You know, when you, for me, chat GPT has really shown me, and this podcast too, has really shown me that, the viral content, be it a book you put out, a text you put out, something you put out, usually if it goes viral, it has a team of people behind them that made it go viral. Even if you look at like individual brands, like if you look at Taylor Swift, that girl has a, A whole multi-billion dollar team behind him. Jeff Bezos got a team behind him. Elon Musk got a team behind him. For so long, we grew up in this idea of like, oh, these people must be incredible individuals. And they might be, but they still have a team around them. What happens when an individual can use chat, use their own team? Okay, now you have your own team behind you. It's revolutionary in so many ways. And I'm looking forward to hearing more ideas and stuff coming out. It is. yeah yeah it is of course I can only agree on that yeah right it is much easier to build your own products out of it with the help of it yeah right how do we reconcile the tension between individual healing experience here's one this is another question coming in how do we reconcile the tension between individual healing experiences and the systemic need for standardized medical protocols any thoughts on that yeah so I think again the answer is in a dive into a inclusive diverse cultural perspective so to really ensure that these kind of protocols try to um yeah implement many different perspectives from different cultures also from people from different backgrounds and particularly for indigenous communities it is important because they have this long-standing tradition of psychedelic use And what I think is also important is to allow patients to interpret their experiences through their own lenses. And that's exactly exactly what we have already talked about when it comes to the no new role of the fair point, for example, so that they can just yeah try to consult their clients how maybe or to make different offerings of how they want to interpret their experiences through spiritual or sex secular or exit or more existential approach or anything like that without imposing a specific framework on them And yeah, I think then it is quite possible that we can reduce this kind of tension between the individual healing experience and systemic needs. Yeah, it was a beautiful answer. Thank you for that. we got a couple more you doing okay on time tom yeah yeah it is quite good I I'm still feeling a little bit uh more dizzy now because we talked so much but it's quite good maybe we do like uh one or two more questions or anything like that yeah yeah We got this one coming in from, where's this one coming from? This one's coming from Ed. Ed says, can leaders advocating for psychedelics remain unbiased or does their immersion in the space create its own blind spots? Yeah, there are definitely the blind spots, of course. That's a big problem. I also think so. I also have many blind spots and I discovered them more and more the more I get into the psychedelic field and speak with different persons. And I think that's also why I want to do this kind of work that I want to do to judge the normativity that is behind blind spots. So to see and to also discover what kind of conflicts are there in the psychedelic field, which one we have to discuss and where it is important to see the different perspectives. And yeah, I really think that whoever is really interested into the truth and into searching for what this is all about is also an open person and is also open to reflect on different realities or different ideas of whatever reality is or can also agree on different metaphysical positions at the same time. Yeah, and I think we just need that and then we can reduce the blind spots. What do you think about that? Especially maybe have you ever heard something about the metaphysic debate that is also going on when it comes to consciousness? Maybe... Maybe you could flesh out the question, like what are the two camps on it? Yeah, I think like one of the biggest question is how is the, so of course there are multiple questions, but one of the biggest is how are reality and consciousness connected in what kind of way? For example, it is a little bit... there are different approaches like monistic approach or reflective monism or something like that, but then also panpsychism. Maybe you've heard of panpsychism, right? And there are like different viewpoints that are also underlying assumptions about what the psychedelic experience is. So, for example, some persons think, okay, your reincarnation is true, for example. because they have experienced or they switch their first-person perspective during the psychedelic experience and they experience, for example, a historical event from another perspective or they felt like, oh, I was another human being before in history and everything like that. And then they tend to say, okay, your reincarnation must be true because I have experienced something like that, for example. And then I think many panpsychists, they tend to embrace such assumptions because they say, for example, yeah, consciousness is some kind, sometimes then also something like quantum mechanics or anything like that is put into that field. but it's also of course pretty much debatable and and then it is so interesting because then they are like yeah at the deepest level the consciousness is all interconnected and everything like that and and we are only the puppets and and so on but of course there is no real biological thing or anything like that and then there are also the other perspectives that are like no in the end consciousness uh is uh nothing more than a kind of a surface system of an extremely complex process that occurs from the way our biological body is built. So something like that or how the mind operates, of course. And it is like the highest hierarchy that we can experience right now. But it is not something like independent from the body or something like that. And data data like this big metaphysical questions that are behind it. And and and I see it inside of the psychedelic field to come back to the question that there are some And at all sides, you have some leaders that are like, yeah, that one is true. No, that one is wrong. And then and then they then they debate about that. And I really like that. But at the same time, I see, yeah, there are I think there are actually these kind of blind spots where it is better to to take this position where you can or I like it. Maybe I'm also a conflict avoid. I don't know. But I'm a little bit like, yeah, I want to embrace all different perspectives and I want to integrate them into my worldview. I love it. Yeah, I was reading some of Ian McGilchrist's work, like The Master and His Emissary. Oh, yeah, I'll send you the thing. He's got a new one out, The Matter with Things. But I think he's panpsychism. And I think that the... I like to believe there's like a non-local consciousness. Sometimes I believe that you don't come into this world. You come out of it. Like you're part of it. You know, like you're, you are the same way that an apple tree grows apples. The earth grows people, you know, on some level. But I think the truth is no one has the faintest idea, man. Like we all have these ideas of what's possible and there's some fascinating theories. And I love to listen to them too. I'm like, listen to people argue about them, but I don't know. You can't know. It's an unknowable mystery at this time. Right. We don't have the tools to even convey meaning to each other. So it's so absurd to think that we thoroughly understand. In fact, those are the people we should stay away from. The people that are like, I have the answer. You want to listen to them because you're like, no, you don't. You don't have the answer. Let's hear it. It's so much fun, and I like it. But certainty to me is usually a warning sign of like, oh, man, I don't. Uncertainty seems to be this beast that we need to learn to live with. You know, it helps us, but you can't be certain of it. But yeah, I love all those metaphysical debates that are people coming up with new ideas and testing the steel. I will send you a video because there's a great European philosopher. He's called, I hope I pronounced him right. If not, I'm sorry. He's called Peter Südstedt-Juches. and he he wrote great books on that thematic and he also has great videos because as I know he was the first one who um put all these different perspectives uh bizarre or on the side of each other and then compared them and that's an impressive uh work also yeah Yeah, that guy's amazing. I've seen some of his videos, seen some of the stuff that he posts. It's really, really intelligent and fun and wonderful to get to be alive with people like that. You know what I mean? Like they're really pushing the boundaries of what's possible. Right. That's it. That's right. Nice. Tom, so much fun, man. I feel like our hour and a half flew by like it was five minutes, man. It was like that. Thank you so much, George. Is your paper published? If someone's listening to this and they want to reach out to you, they want to read your paper, where can they find you? What do you have coming up? yeah I'm sorry it is not published until now because I will publish it as a book at first in germany right this year but um I hope I can also publish it in english but it will still take some time but yeah if somebody's interested just follow me on linkedin and stay updated and yeah we will then maybe speak each other in space and time someday yeah yeah absolutely and we're gonna I'm hopeful that this is the first of many conversations it's really fun and looking forward to more of them so everybody within the sound of my voice I hope you have a beautiful day I hope the sun is shining and I hope that um go down to the show notes and reach out to tom and ask him some questions and live your best life that's all we got ladies and gentlemen aloha yeah bye bye All right.