ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the true life podcast with two d's for a double dose of episodes today I'm so stoked to introduce some incredible people today ladies and gentlemen I think you're gonna love this I know I already love it let me just jump in here with what I got There are moments in our lives when the veil lifts, when the illusions fall away and what remains is truth, raw and unfiltered. It is in these moments that we are called to choose, to turn back into the shadows of familiarity or to walk forward into the fire of awakening. Today, you're about to meet two people who have not only walked that path, but have become guides for those ready to burn away what no longer serves and to stand in the flame of their own becoming. Patrick and Michelle Fishley are the founders of Soul Reflections, the world's first global online iboga ibogaine community, a sanctuary for practitioners, providers, seekers, and visionaries alike. But their story isn't just digital, it's deeply spiritual, rooted in blood, bone, and the ancient tradition. They are the Nagangas, healers and seers, initiated into the sacred Bwiti traditions of Gabon, recognized by the elders themselves, not just for their knowledge, but for their courage, their humility, and their relentless commitment to truth. Patrick, known in the Bwiti tradition as Dibadi, Mabunza Makuku, Akandaji, sorry for the pronunciation, The warrior with the buiti force and flames of truth from his mouth is a registered nurse with over three decades of experience in emergency rooms, ICUs, and trauma bays. A medical director and lead facilitator, he has guided over fifteen hundred iboga journeys with a perfect safety record his work bridges the primal and the clinical the ancestral and the modern michelle known as the yaketa mother of twins mother of all is a licensed practice practical nurse and a transformational integration coach with over eighteen years of acute care experience she's a furious and nurturing presence in the space initiated into the sacred feminine lineages of the nayembe and Mabundi traditions. Michelle brings the power of the mother, the healer, and the spiritual midwife into every ceremony, retreat, and conversation. Together, Patrick and Michelle have turned their lives into a living ceremony. They carry the medicine not just in their hands, but in their hearts. Through the annual pilgrimages to Gabon, they continue to deepen their commitment to the Bwiti traditions, honoring the land, the elders, and the sacred fire of Iboga. Michelle and Patrick, thank you so much for being here today. It's a total honor to talk to you. Thank you for having us. Thank you for that introduction. Holy cow. It's important. You know, when I was doing some research and talking to the incredible Kimberly Adams, who everybody should know Kimberly Adams. She's an amazing individual. And when it comes to grief, I think she is someone who is really at the bedside of it and bringing the stories to light. So thank you, Kimberly, for the introductions and introduction. doing all that you do, but it's important. I think that you guys have a really incredible background and you're steeped in the actual traditions and stuff. But before we get there, is there, what brought you to this? I mean, you guys both had these medical careers, you're in medicine, probably things were going down this path that you thought was a normal path. And like, what happened, man? Why the turn to Iboga? Well, if I have to tell the truth, I was in a multi-level marketing and my upline said, Hey, have you ever heard of Ibogaine and, you know, for like, you know, detoxing and suction. And he knew that we were both nurses in this field. And I said, yeah, that's kind of cool. So we started up a little business treating like, especially the downtown East side of Vancouver, which is a real notorious space for addictions. And we started that and then. moving along, we saw such amazing, you know, amazing, uh, acts of feet with this medicine. And I w we were introduced to the whole medicine, the whole Iboga part of it in traditional style and fell in love with it. And it's like, no, this is where we need to be because it's just so much more, you know, so much more so. Those MLM companies, you know, they're good for things sometimes. Bringing you to this space here without it, I may not have been where I'm at now. Yeah. It's amazing the way in which the world communicates to us. And it doesn't, I think it speaks volumes of, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter where you're from. It's where you're at. And like, sometimes the world, you're fortunate enough to have it collapse or you're fortunate to be in a space where something bigger calls to you. And I think it, I think it is, it echoes that it doesn't really matter where you came from. And like, it matters where you're at and like how you get there and stuff. So, so from that point, you're like, you're starting to learn about Iboga. And this is amazing. You're practicing this, like you, you, you're working with it, but then, there's a whole nother level by going back to the motherland. And then all of a sudden you're like, let me investigate the people that figured this thing out. Like, what was that like? And how did that relationship form? Well, it formed, I think it took longer than we would have wanted it to. Oh, he does. No. So it was, we had been working with the medicine for a few years before we were able to go to Gabon because we wanted to go in a good way. Yeah. and with the right people. And so, um, when the opportunity came, we were like, yeah, I was terrified because I, it was so not something that I would say I would typically do. I'm not like a big risk taker, you know? Although when I think of it now in a way I am because we work with the medicine, that's, you know, certainly not mainstream. So, Um, but I think when you know something is right, you know, something is right. And so even though you're afraid to do it anyway. Yeah. That's a brilliant point. I think it speaks to the idea of courage. And I think that people that battle with addiction, they must find that courage. You know something's wrong. We were speaking a little bit before the conversation about what does it take to be a guide. And for me, in my opinion, you have to have walked through the flames of your own destruction. If you want to understand addiction... you probably should be addicted to something. You should probably understand what it feels like to be thinking about a substance when you have your family around you and you can't stop thinking about that substance and it steals away all those valuable minutes that you know deep in your heart, like you should be embracing, but you're not because you're thinking about this other thing. Like, woo, that is a tough place to be. It must be even tough to work with people like that. And like you yourselves have walked through some different flames like that. What are your thoughts when I say that? Well, so that's usually the conversation that comes up when people hear about Iboga or Ibogaine in particular, just kind of, you said it's very true, but here's another spin on it. We all have addictions. Some of us are just addicted to our mind, our negative thought. Could you imagine being in a relationship with that negative thought running through destroying your self work, destroying what you could be to your partner, to your children, to life in the same very way that heroin can destroy or alcohol can destroy. Those things in our mind can destroy, rip it apart, but we don't usually see it as such because it's internal yet affecting external. And socially acceptable. I'm Patrick. I have depression. I'm on lots of meds. And I'm not knocking that because it's important for some people to be on these, and that's fine. But it's to realize what's actually going on. And we can become addicted to our mind just as much as we can be to a substance, to a behavior, to a way of thinking. Let me get into that loop. You know, and that's the challenge. Luckily that this medicine is a real mind medicine that loves to get in, show you your mind, show you how to work with your mind and how to remember who you actually are before the stories that attach to us. You know, it's about remembering in a lot of ways, because as we sit here and everyone, who's watching and everyone who's out there, the way we sit right now, believe it or not, we are enough. Right now, you are enough. But you may not remember some of it. So this medicine is really good for helping us to remember that we are enough. We're creators. So that's very powerful. We're powerful beings. One that I use quite a bit is, I have everything I need. It's such a good one for everybody out there listening. If you win, you get in those dark spots, just breathe in and be like, I got everything I need. I have everything I need. It's so powerful to think about the ideas of addiction. And like you had mentioned like society, like how many of us are addicted to money? Like we're addicted to these things. We don't even know we're addicted to like, it's so crazy when you start peeling back that onion and start seeing maybe clear for the first time, or you have what the alcoholic calls the moment of clarity or the, Oh man, you could feel it. It's visceral. It's, it's in you. It's, it's, it surrounds our society. It's everywhere. Yeah. Yeah, it does. Yeah. It's prolific. And this medicine is like amazing. It's one of the things that, you know, we can guarantee will happen with people. So Iboga works with everybody so differently. So no journey is the same. But we can tell people it's going to show you your mind. You know, because it knows that's where most of our problems are, you know, are in our minds. Yeah, so get ready. Yeah. And I think that's why it has its reputation, because it's really hard to face and be accountable for your own creation, which is your life as it is now. And iboga is definitely an accountability medicine. So it's going to be like, oh, you're not happy with your life? Well, let me show you why you're responsible for it. I create all this mess? There's no way. I wouldn't be listening, so there's no way I would do this. Oh, my gosh, no way. I'm not choosing that. Or sometimes people say, if it was that simple, I would have done it already. But that's not how that works. Usually the simple things are the hardest to do. Yeah. It, you know, you can't see your head through your eyes. You know what I mean by that? Like I can see my reflection of you and I can see it in a mirror, but like no matter how much I bend my head or how much I squirm, I can't see my head. But it seems like, you know, ancient traditions and people like the Boiti and there are ways that you can, and it sounds like this medicine is one of those ways. Yeah. You know, and circle back again to the beginning of that conversation. is that, you know, we came to this medicine. I mean, we'd never heard of psychedelics and we're just mainstream, you know, doing our thing in the hospitals and whatnot, trying to help as much as we can. And, and then when we started working with it, it just little by little started showing us exposing ourselves to ourselves. and showing us where our minds are, where our addictions in our minds are. I mean, I wasn't addicted to any substances other than smoking. I had a fifty year long romance with it. Yeah, that's five zero, you know, and, you know, and I, I was that person on the street, you know, all the sneaky ways addiction gets in there. It's crazy. And it shows you that it shows you also how we we talk to ourselves how we perceive ourselves so that was a real eye-opener for us and so that was a real saving grace because we didn't come seeking seeking that it was just shown to us as we were working with this medicine and you know and thank god it did because it made a big difference in our lives a big impact as us as as humans as a couple as parents as grandparents you know as neighbors it's made a big impact you know and we constantly, we're constantly evolving. We're constantly changing. I mean, that's one thing guaranteed in life is everything changes. So every day, you know, there's new things that come up and this medicine allows us to see it, you know, and hopefully we move through it in a good way and remember, you know, who we are in it all, you know, not saying we have to be perfect because no one has to be perfect. Which is good. I know. But it helps you remember to keep working, be vigil. So it definitely brings things up, which is great. like just the language you use and the way you describe stuff it's in talking about being better neighbors. Like it seems to me that there's a real embracing of community and I can't help shake the idea that maybe you learn that by going and being in Gabon and doing the medicine there and sitting down and learning from actual people that have been in the tradition for their life. Like, can you speak to the idea of the relationship between learning from the actual people that have used this plant medicine for so long in community and, in that aspect of it well I think one of the most beautiful things for me about learning from people involved from you know the masters of this tradition in medicine is that they allow you to discover for yourself so they don't actually tell you much especially when you go and do your first initiation you know they don't tell you much of anything and they allow you to experience whatever it is you're going to experience without their input, without their, you know, and what they ask you to do is to tell them what you see. That's, that's your only responsibility is to tell them what the medicine is showing. And then they, they guide you gently along the way without ever telling you, you know, what to do other than like a couple of few very simple instructions, because this medicine is about, you knowing you, right? It's not about you knowing someone else's truth. It's about you discovering what's true for you. And so it's really like, like all that dogma that we see in a lot of like, especially like with religions and stuff like that, where somebody is like, very, you know, directly telling you how to be and how to pray and how to, you know, talk to God. There's none of that. There's just like, you know, this is, this is you for, for you to experience first. And then if you ask questions, if you want to know more than they will tell you and they just tell you a little bit and then you get to experience that and see where that lands for you. And then they tell you a little more. So it's like, it's a tradition that envelops your learning in a slow process because they don't, There is this ideology that just knowing for the sake of knowing isn't healthy. It's so true. You have to understand what you know. So that's personally my favorite sort of thing about the tradition in and of itself and learning from them. And that they're so patient with you. Especially because they speak French and we don't speak French, despite the fact that we're Canadian. Well, he speaks a little bit of French. And so it causes some really funny experiences when you're trying to follow direction and they're trying to move you around and sit you down or stand you up or whatever it is they need you to do. So it's definitely a wild experience. When you say wild, like there might be people listening to our podcast that have heard the word iboga or ibogaine, but they don't thoroughly understand like what it means. Like it's not like a thirty-minute procedure. It's not like a four-hour procedure. Maybe you can explain to people what it is. Maybe take them through, you know, the depths. Maybe not as deep as what happens in the journey, but like the process of it or as deep as you want to go. Like it's not something that you do in a day, right? No. No. So, you know, it's, it starts when you make a decision that you're going to come to medicine. Okay. That's the preparation. And that's actually where integration starts, you know, cause you decided, okay, I'm going to do Iboga. I'm going to do Ibogaine. And remember Ibogaine is one alkaloid of the hundreds or so alkaloids that are in Iboga itself. So they decide they're going to do it. stuff's gonna start coming up for you. Stuff you thought was deep seated and you've worked out, thirty years ago. Some of us would be like, fifty years ago, it worked out, no problem. Why is that bothering me for? It's coming up to be remembered because it obviously wasn't totally worked through. So stuff starts coming up and that's a common theme across the board. Over the twelve and a half years we've been working with this, we see it all the time. And so when a person comes to medicine, you know, it's not a quick magic pill. It's nothing easy about it. But yeah, it's the easiest thing to do. You know? It's the easiest thing because all you have to do is surrender to the medicine. But that can be the hardest thing to do. You know? Because it's taking us out of the equation, this ego, this whole control, right? Identity. You know? Yeah, the identity. And so when we start medicine, you know, like, We'll start, you know, say we started like nine o'clock at night and we sit around with a fire, a fire circle, and we talk about things, you know, truths and whatnot. We take some medicine, you know, and then starts, you know, in a couple hours, you know, um, the participants become like deep within the medicine. And so we lay them down on mattresses and, you know, it's, it starts, but by six in the morning, that first stage is kind of through where they're having a hard time walking and. a lot of things are coming up and it's just, it's the more intense part of it, right? And even though it's intense, so the difference between this and other things is that it's oneirogenic, right? It's like walking in a dream world, like to create. It's not like DMT where you buckle in, you're going for a ride. It's a lot different because you're fully aware. And one of the biggest things we notice from people who are doing the medicine will say, hey, how are you doing? And they go, I don't know, do I have enough medicine? Like I feel fully aware. I feel like normal. So yeah, that's perfect because it's not about going out. It's not DMT. But yet they're talking to their grandpa and having a conversation. So this is kind of going on. Oh, but I've been talking to the squirrel over there. So by morning at six in the morning, we walked, into the bedroom, so to speak, and it starts the next phase. And we call that discovery phase. And that's where it's a lot of insights happening even more. So, you know, the medicine is still deep within our, our system working, but you're able to navigate walking a lot easier and it's just, difference, a different phase now. So it's not as, as harsh as you might say, or as deep, right. It's thick, but a lot of stuff happens in that day. And then the next day is integration day. Everyone's kind of back to normal. So I'll say, you know, forty-eight hours to seventy-two hours. It kind of come through, right. Whereas Ibogaine is a little bit smaller, knock off about twelve hours, you know, twenty-four to forty-eight hours. It just goes through a lot faster, you know? but it's really a lot more intense at the beginning. Cause you know, the Ibogaine has got a lot more Ibogaine with it, which causes a lot of that stuff. That's only Ibogaine. That's why I keep her around. She's always keeps me on the straight and narrow, you know? So that's kind of the gist of how it works. Right. And then, you know, you know, we'll always usually have two ceremonies and in a retreat, so to speak, because the first one, Everyone's going to go through some kind of a detox, you know, be from substances or from medications you run or, or whatever, or the mind, especially the mind, right? Negative things we talk about or whatever it's purging, purging, purging. And it's like Michelle always says, it's like the old windows, where we defrag the computers, right? And all those antsy squiggly blotchy colors across is You know, you can, your whole hard drive running slow is not responding properly. You're pushing, nothing's working. And then you defrag and it just clears up all this space and also you've got all this space that's open. Now things are running smoothly. Well, that's what it does for our mind. All those things that are being defragmented are stories we've attached that have come. And some, you know, some come from generational ancestral, you know, some are just because you were in the room and something happened. You know, but it attaches, so it gets rid of the clutter, you know, so he was really good for that. Yeah. It's like, so yeah. I was talking to a mutual friend, Jack Cross, before I came on and was talking to you guys. Shout out to Lakshmi and Awake.net. Such incredible things happening over there. And there's a pretty big event. I think you guys are going to be at it on the seventeenth in June coming up at the Canyon Theater. People should be on the lookout for that. But Jack had mentioned to me, we just talked briefly about Iboga, and he let it slip in passing that his idea, the way that he describes it is that you're seeing the sort of recalibration of the neuroplasticity and the neuro circuits while simultaneously getting to see the visions of what went wrong and how it went wrong and a chance to clear it up in real time. And does that sound like a pretty accurate assumption of what's happening or what would you add to that? Or what do you think? Yeah. So sometimes, you know, yeah, that's, that's really accurate. So, so just like we have to purge physically, Like we have to purge, you know, whatever emotional trauma. We have to purge the mental trauma. And so, and there's like these traumas are attached to stories and emotions. Yeah. Right. And so the more we, the more we associate with that, the more of the story, the more we identify with that story. It's like the more we reinforce that, neural pathway, right? So sometimes what happens, and this is like a really common thing on discovery day is people will get into like thought loops. And this is why we always say to people, tell us what's happening for you, because we can help you move through it. So they get stuck in a thought loop about regret or about something that, you know, happened in the past or the way they've been acting or the way they I've been treating others and, or just the way they've been being, and it just comes over and over and they're like, I can't stop. They just keep coming back. And I like say to them all, like, how many times did you identify it with that? How many times did you think that story? How many times did you, so I've always got to kind of like pull it up, like railroad tracks, you know, like pull up these. And some of them are really deep. So it's kind of like keep pulling it up until it gets to the bottom. Right. So just, just let them be, don't resist it. Like don't fight it because the more we fight and resist, the longer it takes. So, and usually even just that realization sort of like that aha moment happens and then it doesn't have to do it anymore. So, and now. Iboga's gone and kind of pulled up all these old tracks, right? Now, this is why integration is so important is because now we're really, we're really neuroplastic and we've kind of cleaned up the mental space. So now we have to decide what we want to do. Do we want to relay those tracks and re-identify with that identity? Or do we want to create new ones? And if we're not careful, we can just fall back into old patterns. And it's really easy to do because we're super neuroplastic and we can do it, what do you say, better than we did before. You know, so it's really, we talk about this a lot with people. And this is why, and when you had mentioned community earlier, the second year we went to Gabon, that was something the medicine told us, you have to build community. It was very clear. And so we came home, we were just like, okay, well, how do we build communicate? We'll make an online community. And so we did that. And then it's slowly finding its way and shape and, you know, growing into whatever it's going to be. But, um, it's that community that helps you stay accountable to you. And that's what we don't have anymore. When we live in these houses all by ourselves or, or just with our like very poor family and we don't reach out and we don't have elders and we don't have people who are, you know, we don't have our grandparents around to help show us, you know, like a better way or at least allow us the opportunity to see that there is a different way, you know? So, yeah. So Iboga just keeps showing you what it is that you, you're doing it shows you this is this is where you're at right now and I can pull all this up for you and then now I'm going to leave you with a choice you can continue to do that old behavior or you can create a new one that that feels more in alignment with your soul and iboga will never take your choice away Ever. Because if it takes your choice away, it disempowers you. And this is the hardest thing with people with addiction. When we talk to people with addiction, we say to them, Iboga will not take your choice away. They're like, what? What do we mean? You mean it's not just going to go in there and cure me and I'm never going to have an addiction again. We're like, but that wouldn't, that wouldn't empower you. What it's going to do is it's going to show you what your addiction is and why you don't want it anymore. And then you can make the better choice. That's it. I love it. It's really well said. We have someone coming in here. For some reason, the name isn't showing up, but it says, there have been a lot of talk about what ibogaine and iboga treats. Can you share from your medical perspective on if and how it treats things like Parkinson's, PTSD, and addiction? Mm-hmm. Well, with Parkinson's, there's a lot of stuff that happens around the dopamine receptors, you know, and just to put it, I guess, really easily, this medicine of Iboga really helps to replenish, to restore, you know, the working capabilities of our dopamine in our system. you know? And so that definitely helps. That's where, that's why you're seeing such a big benefit with microdosing with Parkinson's, you know, and even now they're seeing it with multiple sclerosis, you know, we're starting to really see that. And it makes sense because this medicine works on neurological pathways and these neurons go through our whole body. So if they're being repaired and renewed and new ones pathways made, then we're gonna get a lot better communication through our body. So that'll help with the ataxia, the shaking, a lot of different things and mental clarity and such. I mean, there's lots of studies that have been done now on Parkinson's with this medicine. Yeah, and then for addiction, there's two things with addiction. So addiction one, Ibogaine or Iboga, it's going to go in and attach itself to those opioid receptors. And it's, and it's a big molecule. So it's able to bump a lot of things off and sort of like bump them off. And then it actually heals that receptor. So what it will do and the thing that people have to really be aware of is it makes you what we call drug naive. So it repairs that receptor and brings you back to your original starting point. So whatever, you know, if you were a heroin addict, and you came in, didn't I go, I go, I begin treatment, you have to make sure that you know, that if you chose to go out and use again, that and you use the same amount, you could overdose. Right, because you've become drug naive. And then While it's sitting there, it's healing that receptor. And then it's also showing you, well, this is why your addiction is there in the first place. So when we understand why we have an addiction, when we understand that core root and can ask for guidance and healing with it, then we're far more successful in staying, you know, sober. I don't like to work clean, but you know, We're far more likely to be making those choices to better ourselves, better our lives, you know, look after ourselves rather than harm herself or punish herself or get stuck in this loop of trying to self-medicate to fix a problem that we don't understand. Right? So iboga heals the receptor and then also helps show us why. so that we can heal that too. We can move forward from that. We can let go of that. And then PTSD? Well, I mean, it's simply as it's repairing all these neurons. It's repairing how things are firing inside. So part of it too is it helps us remember the traumas and helps us to work through them. It's not about getting rid of the traumas and forgetting them. but it helps us to remove this emotional charge that's affecting us. You know, there's always with every story, there's always some kind of feeling or physical or somatic charge to it. So it helps things get to make sense of it, you know, so we can remember without being activated in such a way. There's been a lot of good studies based on that with veterans and blasts and concussions and different things like that, but also like just PTSD in general, that unconscious thing that shakes us to the very core sometimes. So when we're able to work through it, it just kind of separates from that. So it's just now it's a memory. It's not something that's going to totally speak for us in that sense. And I think, too, we have to realize that what I was doing is showing us how we heal ourselves. I love that. Yeah. So, you know, anything is possible, but sometimes what we think we need to do, what we think we need to heal or what we think the problem is, isn't what we need to do. It's such a beautiful point. Yeah. And I'm always going to show us, well, this is what you need to do first. And I'm sorry, that's what you wanted, but this is not what you're getting. You're going to do this first and then we'll go from there. And that's an important note too, because in as much that everyone wants to be healed, everyone wants to have their pain going away. Everyone wants to have their disease processes, you know, you know, downsized and everything else. Yeah. Sometimes it's our journey. go through that, to live through that. And sometimes it's not for us, it's for others. We're actually helping others who see us, you know? And it's complicated, but at the same time, you know, I remember my mother, she, when we were born, she ended up with rheumatoid arthritis, debilitated. So my whole life until she passed, this is what she had. And so she never was able to heal it. She tried all kinds of things going on. Mind you, we didn't have Iboga back then. But nonetheless, you know, really, her journey was the others saw her, how she moved through it. And she didn't move through it with suffering and victimhood. She was strong, you know, vivacious, feisty. It taught us how to live in spite of it and through it and because of it and embrace it, you know. So, Sometimes our journeys are that too. So in as much that is that Iboga, like I say, it can, anything that's attached to a neuron in our body could be healed. It really could be. It's not always what we need in this moment, you know, in this life and whatever, but we do get what we need to move through and, and be the best version of ourselves and live with joy and gratitude because Clearly, when we go to Gabon and, you know, well, they don't got fancy Lamborghinis and cars and, you know, their shirts, they got there and they have something to make there. But a lot of times they're wearing stuff that's been brought over from the West, you know, and things like that, you know, or even less animal skins. They're happy because they've learned how to live in joy in the moment, being present, you know, and that's truly what makes us happy. not worrying about the past, what's happened, not worrying about what's going to happen in the future. But right now, you know, like right now I'm on a screen talking to this guy named George and it's awesome. And you know, life is good. You know, I'm not thinking about the toast I burned last hour ago. I'm not thinking about the company that's coming down tomorrow. It's right now. And that's what we have to learn to live. Yeah. It's amazing to think how many of our ailments are manifest themselves by traumas of, like you said, like the mind or, or the language we use, you know, when I, so I've been having a real problem with the term PTSD and it makes me think like, maybe it's, the problem is in the diagnosis. Like if you have post-traumatic stress disorder, wow, you have a disorder. What if you had post-traumatic growth opportunity? That sounds way better. Doesn't that change like the whole modality of fixing things? Like you have this opportunity. Oh, it's not a disorder. It's an opportunity. It's almost like I'm in a ritual. It's almost like I'm going through this rite of passage. I should be excited about this, you know? We're such victims of the language. And then I peel back the onion more and you're like, wow, we've built whole industries around this language. What came first, the disorder or the industry? I don't understand, you know? Well, and you create your identity. Oh, that's so true. You're given this thing to hold on to. Yeah. And we see, I really, you know, through like social media, you know, you see people and it's through... like speaking about mental health, which is really great. Don't get me wrong. I want to speak about mental health, but I want to speak about it from empowerment and not, you know, taking people's power away. So when we see people who are like, you know, I have anxiety or I have ADHD, which is really common, like ADHD, I have a neurodivergent brain, you know, which is true, you probably do, which to me is not a bad thing. I think people with neurodivergent brains can think outside the box. I think they're great. They're creatives, right? So why not think of it that way instead of all the negatives that, you know, it may or may not be putting to your life, but now you've identified and are self-actualizing. So there's like this, there's this back and forth of like, what am I self-actualizing? What am I labeling and identifying with rather than saying, oh, look, I had this really interesting thing that came up for me in the way I think or the way I view the world or the way I am. And what do I want to do with it? Like, what do I want to do with it? Because you get to create. That's the power of being human is you get to create what you want. And if we look at all the negative things, then that's what we will keep creating. But if we look at all the positive things and what that gives us and the gifts it gives us, that's what we will keep creating. So I think it's just, yeah, it's that language around it. Like, how are we talking about it? Are we talking about it from empowerment or disempowerment? Are we talking about it from the victim mindset of the life is happening to me or life is happening for me? Like, and these are the choices and it's like, we don't realize how many choices we make a day. It's thousands of choices. We make a day, you know, even like in your mind, like what thoughts are you feeding every, how many thoughts do we have a day? Which ones are you paying attention to? Which ones do you give energy to? Because what are, I mean, thoughts are crazy. Thoughts, you know, things float through your mind. You're like, what was that? You know, you're standing there and enjoying this like, you know, beautiful view of maybe the ocean. And then you look down and you're like, ooh, what if I just fell off this cliff? Yeah, what if I jumped right there? You know, like that's thought, right? They're weird, random things. But the power is what do you focus on? What do you listen to? What do you develop into who you are? And that's the choice that we get to make. And to remember, too, that, you know, words are spells. Yeah. You know? The power of the language. Yeah. You know, like, you know, we had a talk when we were first together. I'm like, you know what? yeah, I'm a real morning person. I like to get up early. She knows where I'm going. She knows what's true. And I'm like, I love mornings. I get up early because it's quiet and one's up. And it's like, wow, it's me time. That's great. You know, I can stay up and do whatever. And she's like, yeah, I'm not really, I'm a night owl. You know, I like staying up late and everything else. I go, yeah, but you should get up early and we can work out. Well, I would, I mean, I mean, I can, she can get up for, you know, the hospital and stuff, but she goes, yeah, but I don't really enjoy it. And yeah, I'm not really a morning person. I'm like, well, with an attitude like that, she won't be. I mean, that's what I said. It wasn't really popular, you know, but she, she, she tried to envision herself as being able to, thrive in the morning, there's a five am club thing that was popular a while back, you know, this book, you know, and so she started doing that. And she realized that, oh, I can now she prefers sleeping in a little bit, you know, but she knows that she can be a morning person, because words are spells. So why would we limit ourselves? And we do this unknowingly. Sometimes we do it on purpose, self sabotaging, but even then it's sometimes it's subconsciously unknowing or self-sabotaging. And that's what we're really doing. And we can be creating everything. We're created in the creator's image. It means we're creators. You know, everything. Everything that's in our environment can be created by us. And we can only control how we move through it. So I choose to move through it in a way that's not what some of these other landmines are. I just move them out of the way. You don't even create things. So it's harmonious for me, because that's what matters. Because if I'm good, then it can radiate to others. I can be of service to others. But it comes here first. I love it. They really are. They really are. And we're casting them all day long and we're listening. We're choosing which ones to give power to and who to give power over. And we got some more comments coming in from the, from the crew in here. Thank you so much to everybody that's hanging out with us, Lauren. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. And so does everybody else. She says, how does Iboga compare to other psychedelics? Well, it was different. So I, iboga is not a true psychedelic like we said it's a neurogenic so which latin means to dream and to create so it's more like um when you're in the iboga experience it's more like a waking dream it's it's sort of how things appear um they can be super visual or it can be very auditory or you can feel like nothing is happening at all. And you're just, your mind is totally blank and still, which is really weird for people and people struggle with. And they think they're, they actually think they're doing something wrong when that happens. Like sometimes we'll check on someone and say, you know, how you doing? And they'll be like, there's nothing, there's nothing happening. I mean, like that's, I mean, for me, that's great. I mean, how often is your mind quiet? Like, well, never like enjoy your space, you know? So, um, It can, things can come to people in just a very insightful way where they just sort of are just getting all these realizations. Yeah. And I bogus direct, you know, sometimes we can do guided journeys with people where we can help people sort of ask very specific questions like, you know, why do I have my addiction to whatever? And they will just get an answer. Well, that's because, you know, of the abuse of your mother when you were twelve years old. I mean, that's how it will work. So and they're always simple. The answers are short and they're simple. We know when people's mind is interfering, when the answer becomes complex and they have to describe it. Yeah. And here's the, here's another thing too. So with iboga, it's, it's always going to be about you, about you. So, you know, if you want to know, Oh, how do I deal with my mother-in-law? You know, she's, Oh, no, she's so. out there or whatever. Like, how do I deal with her? You know, because it's affecting our relationship and everything else. Not ours, though. Not ours. Shout out to my mom. You're a great mom. But, you know, it's a real thing sometimes or whoever it is. And, you know, a lot of medicines, they'll show you this person and what they're like and all this creativity part of it, you know, and that's really a lot to do with the DMT molecule that's in there. Iboga is just going to show you you and how you're dealing with her. Not about her. It's about you. See, that's the part with the heaviness with this medicine. It can get heavy because it's about you. What about my addiction? It's about you. What about this about you? And how are you moving through it? And what are you doing? What have you done? And what aren't you doing? And what should you be doing? And what are you doing right? It's always going to be about you. So that can be the heavy thing. Yeah. And so that is, you know, how it differs a lot, you know, because it's not a true hallucinogenic in that sense. But like I say, it can show us everything and above and whatnot, because it's very intellectual. And, you know, they refer to, you know, I as the mother or the grandmother, so to speak, you know, one's got some kind of a feminine or masculine disposition. And they'll refer to Iboga as the grandfather or father. But really, it's a duality. It's got a male and female spirit. It's a perfect balance. You know, and some of the biggest lessons I've learned from Iboga were spanked to me by the grandmother spirit of Iboga. I tell you, you know, don't get those feminine spirits mad at you, man. Don't do it. Hopefully that answers Lauren's question because, you know, I believe all the medicines are here to help us, you know, and they all can work together, you know, with the right amount of space. You know, in Africa with the Bwiti, when they use this medicine, they use other medicines too. There's a whole jungle of pharmacopoeia. and to use them at different times, but to give space around everything and it's time so it can be used properly and respectfully. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, For them, iboga is just part of a whole, right? So they, like when you do an initiation, they will give you another plant with the iboga to help you remember your initiation because you are taking such a big dose of like so much medicine, they don't want you to forget your journey. So they give you a plant with it that is also very bitter, by the way, and does not make the iboga taste any better. No. Yeah, you eat that with it and it helps you remember. So, you know, for them, They've been using this medicine for thousands of years. Who knows how long? Thousands, for sure. And so they used it. If you think back way, way, way back then, there was no distractions in the sense of TVs and phones. I mean, if you weren't doing anything, you literally were just sitting there looking at the jungle or contemplating how this galaxy works. and wondering what all these plants do. And so they used Iboga to help them discover what these plants did. Yeah. So that's how they know. And like Patrick and I are like, when you did our introduction, we have a title of Ganga. And what that means is that if you go and you do an initiation in Gabon, you will, you will be called a Ganga. So that means you're just, you know, you're learning, you're learning to be a healer and And then they have another one above that. And I just blanked on it. What's it called? Nima? Nima. Yeah. Thanks. But there's different levels of Ganga. Yeah. There's like, there's different levels, but to be a Nima, you have to know like a minimum, like two thousand plants in that jungle. So to understand like the complexity and the knowledge of, of the tradition is that's what that is. It's the knowing and understanding of that jungle and how they need to use it to survive and heal and do what they need to do spiritually, physically, mentally. So it's, it kind of like we went out the first year we were there and we were collecting some herbs or, you know, pieces of bark and plants and whatever. And then, so I was walking through like the jungle with these ladies I'm like thinking about like when the French came in to, you know, take over and like how, you know, like these labels of like, you know, them like being unintelligent and not advanced. And I'm like, how, how would any, how would you, how would you have even ever thought that like you watch, they know everything in that jungle, like everything, like they're, We have to, like, we have to tell them, only show us these plants, like, because I'm not going to remember if you show me every plant we want. Like, show me the ones that we need for, like, the spiritual showers, right? Like, show me just those twenty, thirty plants, please. Because, like, they're like encyclopedias of knowledge. They're, like, so intelligent and connected to that, to the space they live. And it's so beautiful to witness that. It's hard for me to describe. I'm not like poetic in my speech, but it's so hard for me to describe that, just that awe in that understanding. If I go out in the forest, I know what an evergreen tree is. You know, I might recognize sage or I might recognize, you know, something pretty basic, but I don't have any intimate knowledge of place I live which is kind of sad but you know that's the truth of it yeah how can you know yourself if you don't know your environment and when you start thinking about people that thoroughly know their environment it sounds to me like they thoroughly know who they are these volumes of the ailments we have in our in our society right here I want to introduce both of you to an incredible individual right here um Friend of the show, friend of mine, Robert Sean Davis. He says, post-traumatic growth opportunity, preach it, brother. Here's where he gets into some deep stuff. And be ready. I have the greatest audience in the world. So after this show, you guys might get a five-page summary about the whole aspect of some awesome thoughts and places you've never been before. That's awesome. Yeah, the incredible audience, this guy particularly, Robert, he's going to be on the show soon. He says, I love the reinforcement that the medicine has natural properties that stimulate organic healing, removing the need of external imprinting as part of recovery. Amazing testimony and appreciate your celebration of the power of self-healing. I'm curious how often you see unexpected side effects of an awakening during a reset, especially given the gifts that can accompany what is almost a mini sanctification process that parallels a near-death experience. I got the greatest audience. Wow. Right? Good question. I think it's hard to describe. So we, we had a, sorry. Okay. So we had a, I guess recently. And so a month ago and we spoke to her just a few days ago and she's like, I'm like, my mind is still blown. I, I can't like, my mind is still blown because. It's like Iboga just knew things that I needed to know before I did ceremony. And it was telling me that before. It was like saying to her, she had this sense of, she was saying, just wait, just wait, you know? And she's like, I didn't know, like, how does it know these things? Like, you know? It's really hard to describe to somebody who's not experienced it. And that was one of the reasons why we created the community, because it's hard to share what that's like. Because words fail you completely in its understanding. And some of these shifts are super incredible, super meaningful, just distinguishable. You know, it's very palpable. And yet, you know, like this lady would also said, I didn't even know I needed to ask for that stuff. And it just gave it to me. It's like, I wasn't even aware it was in my field and what an immense shift. And she didn't know. And she noticed it in her everyday life, how she's moving through with more grace and more poeticness and more joy. And then you have other people who come through And it's not this big, profound shift. But what they get are these little pebbles that are thrown in the pond that create these little ripples. And the ripple effect, I mean, those are mountainous. You can create a tsunami from this one ripple and it will deeply affect your life. And you might not notice it right now, but when you reflect in a year from now, or even five years from now, you're like, whoa. If you're listening, you'll see, you can hear it. But a lot of times we're still learning how to navigate through this new way of being, because it can be a real new way of being of our true selves, right? And we've forgotten how to act in our own true body. So we don't always hear it, but it's there. And we notice it kind of after the fact. And so, you know, there's a lot of awakenings that happen slowly that some happen like really, you know, quite a lot, you know, and it's, you get both, which is, which is beautiful because it's not just a quick cutter. It's very individual for what you need. And, you know, and some people need to have that boom, they need to have it to get through, you know, and some. can handle that other part of it, which is kind of slowly develops that there's a beautiful, beautiful flower, you know, like a Lotus. So it's, it's, I love the way it does that. You were going to say something. Yeah. I was just going to, I was just going to read her quote, which I thought was so funny when she, she said this, she said, uh, the medicine is just baffling and I love it so much. It's like a friend that you get into an argument with. And then two days later, your best friends again, and you can't even remember why you were fighting. It's so true. Yeah. Yeah. So because, you know, sometimes you don't want what it's showing you. You're like, I don't want to be responsible for my life. You know, I don't want it to be me. That was the problem. I wanted to blame my mother or my father or my social life or whatever it was. And the medicine's like, well, let me just take you here. And you're like, no. But then you have to admit that, okay, yeah, no. yeah that's okay that's true and that that whole being responsible it reminds me of this thing the study that was done many many years ago so I'm an identical twin and so the stories always sat with me and I remembered it and they asked when there was two twins one was in living in kingston ontario one's on the coast in western canada and they asked the one on western canada says So looking at you and you're successful and how do you contribute to who you are? He said, well, if you would have known my father, you wouldn't even have to ask. Oh, okay. Okay. And they asked the other twin over in Kingston, Ontario. So what do you contribute to where you are right now? And he looks around his jail cell and he goes, well, if you'd known my father, you wouldn't have to ask. Right? So one's a victim and one's overcome. Now, I don't know what the backstory was. It doesn't even matter. It doesn't matter. But what matters is how we move through it. You know? Because there's a lot of people who are born as children of, say, alcoholics or people with lots of substance abuse and lots of anger, lots of things. And the nice part is those children don't have to grow up to be like that. Now, it's not always easy at all. I'm not going to take that away from anyone's journey, because that's going to be really hard. But you still get to choose. I've heard people say, I'm never going to do that, because my dad did that, and I'm not doing that. Guess what? They don't do it. And I was like, well, that's what my dad did, so that's what I'm doing. And it's like letting them off easy. It's being accountable to yourself, which can be the hardest thing, but the most rewarding thing. You know? I do. I hear a lot of, and I think that everybody struggles with this. I know I do too, is like the relationship between like self-worth, self-love and self-importance. I think so many of these particular medicines and maybe you could speak to the idea of how Iboga helps you deal with those ideas of self-worth, self-love and self-importance. Well, I think like for me, sorry. One of the things I've always showed me was I was, okay. So I was laying, I'd taken medicine, laid down with the medicine and I, you know, waiting for Iboga to show me something or talk to me in some way. And I'm trying to like keep my mind clear and be open. And I think I'm doing a really good job. And then in the music I hear, think it, think it, think it, think it. And then it's like, it's like veil like opens, like, you know, the curtains part. And it's all the stories in the back of my mind that are just like in the show, which really pissed me off because a lot of them were things I thought I dealt with, you know, they were like things that I thought like I wasn't doing anymore. And I'm like, Oh yeah. So I think it just goes down to, It just comes down to those stories and understanding what they are. And understanding how they impact your life and how much time you waste, how much energy you give to them and how exhausting that is. Yeah. That to me is like one of the most, for me, that was like, profound. And so, and then I have to catch myself now, after that, you know, I would recognize, like, so what I was in a very, very toxic relationship before Patrick, the father of my kids, and for like, seventeen years, and so very controlling, and verbally abusive, that sort of thing. So I, in my mind would create stories as to why I did everything. You know, why am I having a shower right now? Because for a long time I had to justify why I did things. So, but I was still doing it like years later and not really realizing I was doing it. And so then I had to catch myself. Why am I making this? Like, why, why am I wasting time thinking about Patrick does not care why I'm having a shower. I could have three showers in one day. That's kind of odd, but whatever. You know what I mean? That's not an issue. So why am I creating justifications and stories around it? And is that what I want to do with my time? Is that where I want my thoughts to go? So in the beginning, you have to catch it. And it's that awareness. Yep. And sometimes people think when that awareness now is present that now, oh, I'm more broken than I thought I was. Or, oh, I'm doing it wrong. Or I'm not healing. I haven't healed because I see all this stuff now that I'm in my mind. We're like, no, that's the point. The point is that you see it, so now you can make a choice. Mm-hmm. And now, see, it comes back to choice again. So you make a choice. Oh, like, oh, that thought came up. Oh, yeah, okay, whatever. You know, and a good friend of ours, Katie, she says, you know, I give my brain a name. Like, whatever it is, Matilda the Hun. You know what I mean? Like, so stop identifying with it. It's not who you are. You know, and with that, like, and she was saying, like, you got to kind of practice those things. It doesn't just, you know, you can end up seeing more of it. People sometimes, not always, but sometimes people think you do a big plant medicine, you're going to have this aha moment, be enlightened, be woke. Woke, you know, and the whole nine yards. And in the essence, yes, we end up waking up. We end up remembering remember we end up being seeing who our true selves are we're shown like she was shown this is who you are this is what you're doing even though you're like the unconscious traveler now you're a conscious traveler now you can see it and I had friends say to me one time some people who are participating well I just you know maybe actually just sit there and bask in it and really get to know all my dark side and all this stuff that's being shown to me. I said, well, yeah, it's being shown to you so you can see what it is, but the idea is to be able to move through it in it because of it and moving forward. And they're like, but what if I want to bask in it? I said, well, you know, it's, it's kind of like this and I'll make this the TV edit version. And, you know, it's kind of like you're walking through with Iboga and all of a sudden you're like, what is that? You look down and you're standing in a pile of a landmine, so in a pile of shit, right? And this landmine, so much for TV edit, right? But you're standing in this pilot and you're like, oh my goodness. I said, what are you doing? He goes, I don't know. I said, well, you have two choices. One, you can bask in it and get to know it intimately and taste it and make a sandwich out of it and really know it. Like really get to know it, become it, know it. Or you can choose to step out of it. He goes, well, okay, makes sense. What happens if I step in it again? Step out of it again. And he said, well, how often do I have to do this? I kid you not. How often do I have to when stuff comes up? Because it's supposed to be healed. Do I have to step out of it? As often as you step into it until you learn to navigate around these landmines because life is never going to stop destroying landmines in your way. But you can become a a great navigator, like sailing a boat. You can become a great navigator through life's storms because it's never going to stop. And so it's either happening to you or for you. Again, you know? And when we take these medicines, it helps us really see. So we can, all of a sudden, you go home two months later and people are like, oh, I'm depressed. Things just aren't. the way they were when I left my left, the retreat, I was like on top of the world. Now everything seems awful. Like it's like it's happening even more to me now, more of this because you're seeing it now, seeing it. So every time you see it, step away from it, step around it, you know, move through it. Don't sit there. Don't be caught in that loop again. And that's our responsibility, you know, and we have that responsibility in life anyways. But if you're going to take a powerful psychedelic, and plant medicine to heal yourself, to become a better version of yourself, then be ready to move through these things as a responsibility with that. You don't get to just open up this can and go, well, good, I'm just going to put it over here now. Life's going to go on. Once you know, you know. Once you know, you know. And that's empowering. That's empowering. And within that can become joy because every time you – go around and you see this thing, you're like, Oh, thanks for reminding me that I'm not that person anymore. You know, I have things that come to me and like, you know, that I had that I worked through and I'm like, Oh yeah, no, that's not me. I'm not a person anymore. And that's so much joy because I'm not trapped in that anymore. You know? So that's empowering. That's gratitude. And it lets me live in joy. You know, it's really amazing. You know, does that make sense? Yeah. That's really, really well said. You know, I can smell what I'm stepping in. We have a choice and you just keep stepping out of it, you know, become good at this. Yeah. It's a gift to get to see it and be aware of it. Like you mentioned the word awareness and like that word alone is, really opens your eyes you know a lot of times we'll talk about altered states of awareness and and michelle said it too like once you know you can never go back like you're given the gift of seeing it and realize that it's a gift it's painful it's hard to carry but it is a gift and once you learn how to be aware of it, then you can learn how, be aware of how to navigate through. I think it was a brilliant way you described it there. And I think it speaks volumes of why the two of you are a great team and good at what you're doing right there. Thank you for that. It was really well said. Well, you know, it's been said for years, like for decades. Knowledge is power. Yeah. Everyone knows that phrase. And that's what these medicines give us, is knowledge. So that's power. But not necessarily math and science and book reading, the knowledge of ourselves. The knowledge of ourselves. I think that's the key difference. And we can know things intellectually. And a lot of people, when they come to us, they're at a point where they're like, I know all this stuff. Like, I know. Especially when we have somebody that comes to us, say, it's a therapist. Yeah. They that's, and a lot of times that's why they do therapies because they're trying to heal something in themselves and they want to learn, how can I do it for myself? And how can I help others? Right. So, and they're like, so I know all this stuff, but I still can't figure it out. And somehow when we take these medicines and for us, I mean, it's the most, so it's like, you know, when we take this medicine, it moves that knowledge from intellectual into deeper knowing, into understanding. It helps us process in a, in a deeper way what it is. And nobody like, and that's the difference between Iboga and talk therapy. You know, when people talk, I've been in therapy for twenty years and I did more in that week with Iboga than I did and all that talk therapy. Well, that's because your therapist can't go in your mind and show you what's going on in there and, and, and fade the veil between the conscious and the subconscious where the actual programming is in that subconscious mind. I mean, most of our decisions are made back there and we're totally unaware of them, you know? And so Iboga and other plant medicines that allow us to choose a plant, because there's a lot of different varieties in medicine. other these other medicines that allow us to step behind that veil a little bit so we can understand more about who we are and what makes us tick. Something to be said about the language of experience. And I often think about when the instrument becomes an institution, it loses its ability to work. And it seems like in the Western world, we've done that. We've institutionalized learning. We've institutionalized the experience of other people, which are just these stories. But I don't care. I mean, I'm so grateful for the people that have gone and learned so much. But on some level, what is your experience? Like what, show me, tell me you're suffering. Let me see. I know I've read those same books, but they do not describe the experience in a way that you can thoroughly understand. You must have the experience before you begin teaching anybody anything. And it seems like in the West, we've, we've, probably out of a road of great intentions and an opportunity to give back, to be inclusive. Like, let's let everybody do this. Like, okay, but where are the filters? You know, weak filters create weak leaders and weak leaders lead people off a cliff. Like you have to have the experience of it. And only you, you will interpret that experience different. And like, that's where on some level, I think you begin to understand what it means to, to, to, to understand the language of nature. Is that too harsh of a critique on education, do you think? No. No. Good, thank you. It's very true in a lot of ways, you know? Yeah. It actually is. I mean, we need practical knowledge. We do, we do, of course. We need both. Yeah, but we're forgetting the deeper knowledge. We're forgetting, you know, inner knowing. We're forgetting wisdom, right? we're consuming knowledge and not and not sitting in wisdom and wisdom takes time and we live in a society where everything is instant and we um celebrate youth only then we forget that you know really the best parts of our life come later when we're not so consumed with our identity and not so consumed with our social life, not so consumed with building whatever it is we think we need or want. And then as we get older, we start shifting into really understanding what's important. And we can't do that all at once. We have to go through the process. And so we've forgotten in Western culture anyway, to listen to our elders. We've forgotten, like, you know, we really forget how important they are. Right. So there was, I read this thing a little while back and it was like, there's only like four mammals or something in the animal kingdom that go through menopause humans being one of them. And like, that's how important wisdom is. That's how important it is for. us to have elders us to have people that are no longer focused on creating the future but teaching the future because you need to be at that stage in your life to be able to teach you need to have had lived life to teach about life you can't do it when you're talking you can understand things and have knowledge when you're twenty and thirty but you really don't take away the beauty of aging right don't take away the beauty of accumulating all these experiences that's why we become human in the first place to have these experiences why else are we here we can't we don't get them instant that's why there's time that's why we live in this linear world where we feel the effects of time and we age and we do all these things that we think we don't want to do, but they're to teach us things and to show us how to experience, like to show us experience, to really understand what things are and what's really, really important. Like, you know, and with all, I think it's so pronounced now with all the craziness in the world, and maybe this has happened in generations before, right. Where we've had big shifts, but you know, we can really see there's like, left and right and you know whatever woke and unwoke and like all these labels of like division yes and so what is that asking of us why is that so pronounced right now like what is that truly asking of us is that asking us to divide even more is that asking us to like love one another Like, why are these things coming up for us now? Yeah. We're at a time in our culture, in our civilization, where we need to remember, you know, remember back. And we have, like, people who are in their wisdom years acting like they're in their twenties because for some reason we've dismissed that so much that they feel like they don't have value unless they're pretending to be something they're not anymore. And I think these are the important questions. And this is what we need to be looking at when we're thinking about elders and we're thinking about spiritual education. Yeah. Who's teaching me? Who am I going? Am I going to somebody who is my same age? You know, or am I learning from somebody that has greater wisdom because life has happened? So, and I'm not dismissing youth because we need the youth because they have great ideas, right? They think, you know, when we're young, we kick against the system and we, you know, we want to, you know, create better things, right? But we don't devalue then, you know, moving through the different seasons in our life. Because being young is fun. And it's important, but so is the wisdom. So I think this is what we have to be looking at. And there's a lot of bypassing right now because this is plant medicine has become trendy. And these medicines are becoming, they have such potential and people are so desperate for them. that they're too quickly either going into the experiences without really understanding what they're asking or doing, or they're too quickly wanting to become a provider and serve these medicines when they've only had minimal experience and haven't really figured out their own stuff yet. And not that, not that we ever really figure it all out. That's not, but there is a certain, I think that we need to have patience for, and it's okay. And I think when we're working with these medicines, it should take, you know, years, like a decade or two to become, you know, we should be students for a long, long time before we really start trying to guide anyone else. So I love that. It's so well said. It's so well said. And yeah. It's so sad to me to see on the topic of elders and this fascination with youth being young. I want to live forever. I want to be young forever. Look at what we do in the West. We've gotten so far away. We put our elders in a care home somewhere because we don't want to see them because it's so hard. Oh, my mom can't get out of bed. Hmm. Well, maybe you should take care of her in her bed. Maybe, you know, like maybe she can teach you a lot of things by like the story you talked about your mom with arthritis. What do you learn from an elder who has cancer and see the pain that they go through and losing their ability to walk? Like what do you as an individual learn by walking? oh my God, I need to take care of them. Maybe you need to quit your job. Maybe that's what you need to do. Maybe you need to figure out like, oh my God, this, this is teaching me what I have to look forward to. This is teaching me what I need to do in my life. Like maybe we should stop turning away from our responsibilities to the elders and the youth and, Start doing things that matter. But, you know, the demands of the Western society to have the nice car, buy the house. Oh, you want to have kids? You better have this much money. Oh, you got to go to the right school. No, you don't have this degree. Like, we've gotten so far away from the things that really matter. And there's no wonder we have a manual called the DMS-V. We're all going crazy over here. We're running away from the very things that would free us. We're running east looking for a sunset. That's right. Yeah. That's right. You know, and nobody has really ever accomplished things by turning away from what's happening. They embrace it. You know, they go with it. They use it. They get the inertia going with it. You know, it's that old thing, you know, life hands you a bunch of lemons, you know, from on the side, let's go have some apple juice. You know, you make lemonade out of it. You know, when life hands you this, what are you going to do with it? It's here for a reason. Yeah. And a lot of times that comes with age, with the maturity part of it. And like Michelle says, sure, there's a lot of youth who have really got it going on. A lot. And kudos. I mean, thank God for that. These are these young thinkers who are going to lead the way. These are going to be our leaders. And we can learn from them, too. And it's like, I'm never too old to learn, ever. I don't want to stop learning. You know, what then? I just get old. What good is being an elder? I feel like Grandpa Simpson just sitting there, you know, doing nothing on the couch. I mean, I'm like, no, you know? So there's lots to learn. And it's there for us, put in our way every day for us to use. And because of it and for it and everything, you know, life is great. I got a great question coming in here from my friend Clint. Clint Kyle is the psychedelic Christian podcast. I want you to check it out. The guy does great work. I love talking to him. He's an amazing guy. Check out his podcast for those that are listening. He says, how do we ensure that the Western thirst for healing does not become another form of spiritual colonization? We're the best audience in the world. That's a good question, right? Yeah. I think it's keeping it simple. And I think iboga, that is one of, again, a lesson iboga teaches us. It doesn't have to be hard to be worthy. We overcomplicate things. Just keep it simple. And really, what is it you really need? One thing, when I first came into working with the traditional component of iboga, I thought, okay, What is this tradition? It's in Africa. I have no idea. I'm going to keep my feelers out. I'm going to pay attention because I have my core beliefs that I was brought up with and my faith and everything else. What is all this about? You know what I saw? I saw this tradition, not religion, just tradition of the Bwiti. that serves the Boga. Bwiti is just simply the study of life, your life. It talks about truths. And one thing I and I kept watching things and seeing things and that's true. That's true. That's true. That's true. And you know something? What is true for me is true for somebody. And if it's true. And so let's talk about in this day and age and technology. that's a cell phone. And you get somebody in Africa, that's a cell phone. You get someone in the Buddhist community, that's a cell phone. You get the point. Truth is truth. And that's what I saw. And if we keep it to that, and it's not about dogma, you know, when they have ceremonies in Africa, in Gabon, they have a temple, right? And it's got a post in the middle, and it's just like this with a post in the middle, you can, you go in, in one side and come out the other side of the front doors are never closed. There's never no doors. There's no doors and you can come as you want. You can leave when you want and come back and go, come back and go, come back and go. And no one's ever going to tell you how long you have to stay there. No one's ever gonna tell you how you have to act. You just have to be reverent, be reverent, you know, be truthful, be true to yourself. There's no dogma attached. You know, we see that over here. And I'm going to get really unpopular with all the people in your podcast land, but we bastardize all these dogmas over here. We have. You have to do this. You have to do this. You have to do this. Or this is going to happen. That's going to happen. And, you know, we get back to the truth stuff of things. That's what's really important. You know? And we just have to remember, go back to being what is true, what is truthful. Authentic. authentic, authentic version of yourself. Because, you know, we're all spiritual beings having a physical experience. And on that spiritual level, there's a balance point where everyone is on the same frequency. It's everything else that's put to stories around that change things, that dampen or strengthen the signals that are coming from there or whatever, you know, these stories. So, Yeah. And I think that's a profound question because that's, that's, you know, Patrick and I are quite protective, you know, the medicine, you can be like, you know, careful of who we recommend to other people and that kind of thing. So, and safety, we're super, you know, stringent on what we need to do for safety. So I think, when you're looking at providers or when you're looking at retreats or places to go for these spiritual things, one of the things that is a good way to know is are they empowering you? Are the people you're going to focused on empowering you or empowering themselves? And I think that's the line, you know, so If we look at even how iboga is, it's never taking your choice away. Right? So it's empowering you. And it's never going to tell you what to do. So people will ask iboga, should I, you know, move to a different city? And iboga will, you do you. Whatever. So you have to, you know, you have to sometimes get creative with these questions. You have to say, like, do I want to move? You know? So If you're going to somebody that's telling you what your journey meant, or is telling you, oh, the medicine told me to tell you this. Well, why is the medicine talking through that person to you? No, no, no. The medicine is going to talk to you through you, not through someone else. And they can maybe guide you. You know, the point of having, going to a provider or being like, for what Patrick and I do, the point of us is, is to help you through the process of your own healing, of your own journey, and not to try to shift you from where you're at, not to tell you a better way, but to allow you to have the experience and to come to the conclusion of what that experience means to you, for you. You know? I don't need to be telling people what their journey meant for them. I don't know. That's for you to decide. That's right. So I think it's taking that step back and it's like taking that ego out. I'm not here as your healer. I'm not here as someone telling you what to do. I'm here to support you and maybe give you an arm while you walk your journey, but I'm not here to tell you what that journey is. Yeah. I mean, I'll give you this little hoe, this little apparatus and mechanical tool, and I'll hold the ladder for you, but you're getting up there pinning your own gutters. You know? I'm going to help you so you won't fall. I might recommend a few things, how to use that thing the right way, but you're going to do the work. You know? So I think, yeah, I think it is something we're going to have to be very mindful of as, as, you know, you know, mainstream kind of gets ahold of it and people. Yeah. That's why it's so important to have the traditions come out and, and be really understood and be talked about in these kinds of manners so people can understand, you know, and we're not experts and weighty by any means we're students, you know? But we do speak of what we know and how to honor this medicine and how to honor this tradition, how to honor ourselves, how to honor each other. They have a greedy truth and it says, if you abuse nature, the price is misery, but you are nature, right? that's that's a heavy one because we don't think of it sometimes you know especially those of us who are caught up in all this go go go go go achieve achieve achieve achieve that's you know that's how a lot of us were we've gone through our cultures growing up you know and we forget we're out of touch now if we talked and listened to some of our And ancestors, and we listen to some of our elders, if we're actually listening, we'll remember. And you can hear them like, no, no, no, hang on. Remember this stuff. Stop smell the roses. That's an old term, right? Yeah. You know, take your socks off and shoes off and put your toes in the sand. Things that our parents would have told us, you know. These are important things as we're moving through life to enjoy it. Mm-hmm. And not to abuse it. Mm-hmm. think if we didn't abuse it and we enjoyed nature we'd enjoy ourselves a lot more you know there's such a cohesiveness for us and our nature and the whole environment around us you know it really is yeah you can learn so much I think I think it's the best teacher. You can learn more from a battered coastline or a waterfall than you can from eight years of instruction. And if you're really willing to sit down and just, you know, being in Hawaii for so long, I remember I'd go to the bay and we would go snorkeling and then I'd just come back and my daughter and my wife would be swimming. I would just sit there and be like, look at all this erosion, man. Like this used to be part, like this little piece of sand used to be part of that mountain right there. Am I part of the same? Like what part am I the mountain? Am I the same? Like what is going, the erosion is happening inside me right now. Like you just start having all these revelations of like, Oh, the world's talking to me right now. Like, and it's, it's so magical to get to reconnect with the spirit and the language of nature. That's all around you desperately trying to get your attention through the song of a bird or a tree, or sometimes the speck, the speck of dust floating through some light, you know, like you see these profound visions all the time. If you're just willing to pay attention and they're like, Hey, look, I got to show you something. Check this out. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's in the stillness, right? Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. And that's some of the beauty of doing these medicines that helps us, you know, that's, that's where it can start, you know? Yeah. It helps us be still. It helps us slow down. Yeah, to reconnect. It's so well said. The idea of, and the word remembering, thank you for bringing that up. It's been coming so, I see it everywhere. And maybe that's just a sign of the times for what we need to be doing. But just think about that word remembering, like we're putting ourselves back together and it speaks volumes of the shift we've been talking about and the reconnection of the youth to the to the elders and the people in midlife as the bridge between them. I really am seeing so many positive shifts in the remembering of society and maybe that's why it seems so difficult right now because we are trying to remember. There's a large part of people that are moving on to the next phase of whatever comes next and there's anxiety and there's this youth coming up like, where's my mentor? Where's my teacher? How come this teacher didn't teach me? We're really trying to remember what's happening and how to move through these times of change. And it speaks to the rites of passage, like the things that you help people through. And we've been spiritually devoid of these rites of passage and ceremonies. And it just, it's so beautiful and elegant when you see it coming together. And it gives me so much faith in what's happening in the future. And whether you're speaking out or you're building something like it, it's such a critical time that we're in right now. How do you, how did the two of you feel about this time we're in right now? Well, I think for people in the West, I think we're realizing that, for me anyway, I'm realizing that we've been too comfortable. Yeah. You know, when I'm sitting in, sometimes I'd just be, like, have a moment, and I'd just be sitting there in Gabon at the village that we go to, and I'm looking around, and... there's a well now for the village, but when we first went there, there was no well. And so they had to go to a river to get water and bring it back. And you know, there's no, there's like, you have like one light in a room, you know, there's no washing machine and there's no dishwasher and you know, all these things. And, and you're like, Our tolerance for discomfort is so low that everything is uncomfortable because things are so simple and we don't realize, and not that they're bad, we don't have to get rid of them. I'm certainly not saying get rid of all the washing machines and laundry, you know, like, no, no, I don't want to go back to washing my clothes at the river, but make yourself uncomfortable and Like learning, when we learn things, there's a period of discomfort between not knowing and knowing. There's like that transition period. And that's what's powerful about medicines too, these spiritual medicines that... they make us uncomfortable for a reason. There's this period of discomfort that needs to happen for us to understand and to build tolerance to life. So that's why exercise, like that's why people do extreme things, right? Because they're looking for the discomfort to build their tolerance to life. Mm-hmm. Like, right. When we're working out in the gym and we're lifting weights, there's periods of discomfort so that we can build muscle. We have to tear that muscle down to then repair it and build it better and bigger. Right. So it's built into the system and all things. So when we're, and I think that's why mental health too is, is that is another thing, another layer on that mental health thing. And why you don't see it in places where there's like extreme poverty, where there's discomfort all around people. So they have a massive tolerance to being uncomfortable and they find happiness in it. Right. But when you're so comfortable, then, you know, the guy slamming his brakes on in front of you unexpectedly angers you to the point of, you know, road rage. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, well, Why is that happening? Because we have no tolerance for discomfort. Or really, we shouldn't care. I mean, you go to, like, you watch them drive in Gabon. I don't think it's as bad as India. But you're like, or, you know, Costa Rica. We lived there for a little while, and it's like, whoa. That's some interesting road rules or lack thereof. You know, where if that happened here, people would go insane. Lose their minds, yeah. Yeah, they'd be like, ah, they're cars, like getting each other. And there, they're just like, you know. Resilience is born from resistance. You know, resilience is born out of resistance. You know, what else is born out of resistance? Oh, some of the most beautiful diamonds in the world are born from the resistance and that pressure. So when life starts getting too much and all this pressure is happening to me, just try to remember, well, something really good is about to happen. There's going to be a real shift. Something good is going to come out of this because that's where the most brilliant diamonds come from is that resistance. That resilience is born out of resistance. So I think that's kind of like what's happening right now. Like it's a forced discomfort for us to grow. Yeah. I mean, it's a shaky, it's an uncertain time. There's a lot of crap going on. People don't know whether they should travel or not, what they should do, but we're just kind of on the cusp. Something is going to happen. I mean, it has to, and it's going to be good, bad or indifferent. But the one thing we know for sure to be totally true, you know, when we've taken medicine and we've, we've seen there's no wrong choice. What's he saying means there's no wrong choice. We just had an election here. We mean there's no wrong choice. As long as you choose. So let's say I choose door A instead of door B. And I choose door A and it's something like rotten pizza. I don't know, whatever. And I could have picked the cake behind door B. Well, it's not necessarily a wrong choice. It's obviously something I'm learning. I need to learn. So what have I learned from choosing this door or this opportunity? You can choose something. You can choose that, OK, this is what this is like here. Oh, yeah. I know what I'd really like to be. I know how I'd really like to have this. And you can start giving gratitude and being thankful for this remembering of what it is, what I desire. Instead of like, oh, man, I got that again. You know, it's like, oh, poor me. No, it's all, there's no wrong choices. You have to make a choice. And I see that in today's society right now. There's a lot of things happening. And we have a choice. I mean, when we went through COVID, I mean, I remember the first time we came down off our hill, you know, into town, it was like a ghost town. It was like some creepy movie from Silent Hill. I mean, Oh my God, right? It was like really unnerving. Because nurses still had to go to work. And I'm like, you know, this is an opportunity for people to stop, slow down and reevaluate things. Now, some did and some didn't. And that's just the way it is. That's human nature. But it was a time where we could, we had the choice. You know, we can't go out, we can't do this, can't do that. What do we do? Oh, we have to sit by ourselves with ourselves. And that's uncomfortable for a lot of people. And we heard that, you know, by no fault of their own. We heard that complaining because it's difficult, you know, but that's where growth can happen. You know, and I'll tell you, there's a lot of people who came out of that with a lot more love and understanding and, you know, forgiveness to a lot of people. that differ from them. And that was important. So that's where we are now with all these different shifts that are happening. And we can sit there, we can complain about he's doing this and he's doing that and oh my gosh. Okay, so what am I doing? What am I doing? Okay, he's doing that, but I'm choosing right now to live my best life. I was, to share a quick story, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, And I knew it was around thirteenth because I had a chip in my shoulder and I was like right here. And it was pretty big, you know, as most thirteen-year-old boys have is chip on the shoulder. And I was doing something, I don't know, you know, working with my dad and doing something and I'm over, I think, fixing my hair, you know, whatever. I don't know. And my dad, it's like, he said something, get back to work. And I gave him some attitude, you know, because I was that chip. And he said, listen, young man. The world does not revolve around you. Now, in that moment, I knew what he meant. I knew what he meant. And, you know, that changed how I responded in life and, you know, wasn't being so self-absorbed and blah, blah, blah, and took people's feelings into account. And I did plant medicine as an adult. I'm like, hang on, Dad. My world does revolve around me. Everything I choose to be in this world of mine revolves around me. I can't control what's going on, but I can control how I'm going to move through it. So it's either going to be in my circle of influence or it will not be in my circle of influence. And so I learned to think a little differently. So I see things going around now. Okay, so what am I going to do in the meantime with all that's happening? How do I act? How do I treat my neighbor? How do I treat? someone else who voted for some different party. Oh my God, how do I do that? How can I ever talk to them again? They voted a whole different party than I voted for. We can't even be friends anymore. You know, I know you're my twin brother, but how can we even do this? You know, you know, how do I, how do I move through it? So it gives us that moment we can reflect back. Okay. So I, in this moment, I choose to live like this, you know, and that's going to make a difference. make a big difference. Does that answer your questions? Yeah, that's beautiful. It's like the story of... One of the favorite things I love about storytelling and getting to hear the experience and stories that were told to other people is the mind shift of the culture or the mindset of the culture that we grew up in. And you can see it in the different generations. Like, hey, the world doesn't revolve around you. There's so much beautiful morality in that. But at the same point in time, it doesn't really fit for the world we're moving into. And I'm not judging it or anything like that, but it's just like, Wow. That sheds a light onto how a generation was brought up. Of course, the rules are going to be in that direction. If you can just sit with it and not hold it as true or untrue, you could be like, oh, that's a real insight into how a large portion of the world thinks. If they think that, then maybe I could adjust this way or maybe I could shift it this way. That's the power of storytelling. Recounting these stories that happened to us at a young age allow insight into so many people and so many different things. and that's a big part of the ceremony and it's listening to the stories of the people that came before you. Now we're back to the elders and we're back to the real learning done in front of the fire where people are listening and maybe the kids are over here at this table but they have one ear up because they want to hear what the adults have to say, you know, and... hearing the kids, you know, they want to hear that part more than anything, but it's the real community learning aspect that I'm really eager to be part of and do on some level. But yeah, that answers my question and perfectly. And that being said, I got some more questions coming in. Robert chiming in over here. Robert, thanks again so much for always being here, man. I truly appreciate your friendship and coming in with such brilliant questions. He says, in my experience related to abuse, healing medicines allow for a perception of where the harshest adversities we experience are part of a process that creates higher gifts. Outside of time, we then understand tremendous gratitude and appreciation, seeing an eternal perspective. Then when you see abusers as loving volunteers participating on a lineage basis, it facilitates the space for true forgiveness and recovery. That's pretty deep right there. I think, right? Yeah. Totally. Totally. It is. And there's beauty in that. Yeah. There's so much beauty in it. Exactly what he said. There's just so much beauty in it. Forgiveness is hard. Forgiveness is hard, but forgiveness is about you. Yeah, what is forgiveness, right? What is it? Yeah, what? The other person. And forgiveness comes up a lot in ceremony. And so one of the things Ivo is really good at showing people is that generations so it might show so say if you had like an abusive mother um you know we had this one guest that had a pretty abusive mother but then iboga showed them how their grandmother treated their mother and what they realized is that their mother was actually had improved that lineage like had was doing better You know, and, and, and could only, you know, go so far, right. Like had a very traumatic and abusive childhood and was trying to do better for her children. Although it wasn't, it was still like, not great, but for her with the tool she had, she was doing the best she could. Right. So, and it's sometimes just that understanding that our parents are people. you know, at different stages of healing and at different places in a journey. And then you go even deeper than that. Well, why did I choose that parent? Right? Why did I choose to have a parent that was abusive or in addiction or, you know, not around? You know, like, why did my soul choose that as me to go through? And then you can get into even deeper, like, well, what was the karmic? Where was I karmically that I needed to learn that lesson? So I think it's not becoming identified with the trauma and learning to, and I think that that's what Iboga does so beautifully. The lessons are attachments. So there's like another, like weedy truth and there's three things that are damaging, which is assumptions, attachments, and belief systems. And so Iboga loves to teach us about those three things. What are my belief systems that are negatively impacting my life? What are the attachments I have to stories, to people, to things that are negatively impacting my life? And what are the assumptions I'm making about Other like things that I have no control over, like other people's thoughts. Like I'm assuming I know what someone's thinking, feeling or doing. I actually have no idea. And that's dangerous because it only wreaks negative. Probably most likely it has a negative impact on me because usually we go to like, Oh, what are they saying? They're talking about me and maybe they don't like me. you know, they're probably, you know, judging me and blah, blah, blah. When really they're thinking about themselves. It's not a single thought of you that's in their mind that whole time. They're thinking about, oh my God, do I, is my hair okay? Does my shirt look weird? You know, like we're very self-absorbed and we think that other people are self-absorbed about us. They're self-absorbed about themselves. So I think like when we break it down those three things, that's where that's like it's just about these lessons and what we need to grow through you know and then back with the forgiving part of it right it's forward giving and we're forgiving ourselves you know and we that comes up a lot too in these plant medicine circles you know when people are thinking about these past traumas and some are horrific and Different types. And they're like, how do I forgive someone for doing that to me? Like, I didn't ask for that. No, no, you didn't. That's horrific. It was horrific. But when did that happen? What happened when I was three? Yeah, that's horrific. But that's the past. And you need to forgive yourself. Well, why? I didn't do anything. But you've been holding it You've been holding on to that moment your whole life and you're either angry or you've got grief around it or shame around it. All these things that are somatizing into illnesses and who knows what else, but it's there, it's palpable. We know people like this and it's hard to watch them look at themselves like that. And the moment you forgive yourself from hanging onto it, not excusing so-and-so, but for hanging onto that, it just sheds and becomes lighter. You know, you don't forget what happened, you know, don't forget at least we repeat it, you know, so you don't forget, but there's that, that letting go, it doesn't emotionally charge you anymore. It doesn't somatize. It's not thick in your skin, you know, and that is freedom, you know, that in is where forgiveness is amazing. Cause you know, if I say I forgive you for whatever, it doesn't mean I'm going to say what you did is right, but it frees me from being in that situation and holding it. Cause you know, twenty years from now, you're not going to remember that you did this thing on this podcast. But I'm going to remember it. You know, I remember back when I was sixty and that George guy, you know, kept looking off to the right hand side, not looking at us. I don't know if something was wrong. I'm not sure. He was adjusting the color. I just never got over it. I know it sounds silly, but why are we hanging on to stuff? It is kind of silly. we're hurting ourselves. We're hurting ourselves. And that's how, I mean, it sounded silly, but really we're just hurting ourselves. So, so stop, you know, and it's as simple as that. Okay. I don't have to, I don't have to hang on to it anymore. I don't have to have that affect me. You know, I can choose or not choose to associate with this person anymore. It doesn't, that's not even a part of it. Just, I'm not going to do that. You know what, you know, Why should I cry over something when that person's not crying over it anymore? You know, I'm just holding my own party here. You know, a pity party, right? And we do. I mean, we've all been there to some degree. We have. But realizing it's a really good soul life, forgiving. And that's the beautiful part. That's where the healing comes. And, you know, you can actually be the ancestor that heals your whole lineage. Right. You can stop that from continuing generational after you. And that's beautiful. That's where it becomes, wow, I'm this because and in spite of and because of all that, I'm this. I mean, the stuff that makes up me as a man, there's a lot of stuff. I've done a lot of stuff in my life, lived a lot of different lives in my life. My, my tattoos that have all these different meanings and stuff from different stages of my life, good, bad, and indifferent. And they're important because they make me who I am, you know, and there's different levels of forgiveness and things that have happened, but that's the beautiful part of it. Yeah. And I think the other part of that equation too is like, okay, so a lot of times our traumas are part of our identity. Right. I am Michelle and I had an abusive partner or I am Michelle and I had abusive parents, right? Part of my identity. So if we're gonna challenge that, what do we want instead? Because we hold onto these things because we know them, right? And we would rather hold onto the things we know then explore the unknown and possible better right even though what we know is harming us so we ask this of people when they come in okay okay great you want to let go of all these things I want to let go of my self-doubt I want to let go of my you know attachment to you know this addiction. I want to let go of all these things. Okay. And people can list them really easy. They can just go and you say, okay, what do you want to get rid of? Yep. I have my list. Yeah. It's ten things long. I have forty questions for the medicine of all the things I need to know about why I'm broken. And then you go, okay, well, what do you want to replace that with? And they're like, oh, there's another part. I just want to live in joy. What is joy? What does that life mean to you? What do you want to bring in? Because we can't just create a vortex and we can't just take things out and not put something in its place. Like you have to bring something you want in. And that's hard for people. People often, especially when we're at the beginning of the journey and we're really just like really looking at where our addictions are, where our flaws are, right? Right. Where we're broken, broken. Okay. And then we're like, okay, well, if you don't know where you want to go, how are you going to get there? If you don't know what you want to become, if you don't know who you are and who you want to be, and if you don't know the answer to that question, that's fine. Then let's ask that question. Who am I? Who do I want to be? Like, what do I want to become? What do I want to project out into the world? What do I want to create? Because if I'm not creating something intentionally, then life is going to create it for me. So it's bringing intention into, into your experience, not just, you know, saying, okay, medicine rid me of all my sins, but you know, also now I want to be intentional with my life and, and move forward with, with, with, with understanding and knowing. Right. And so that's part of that process of becoming aware and becoming conscious is becoming intentional. It's not just floating through life, totally oblivious. Right. And we know there's lots of people like that. They just kind of, you know, Go through life. Just do the thing. Never question. Never, you know. You're a conscious traveler. Never question. And they end up sometimes at the end of their life and they're like, whoa, wait a minute. I missed out on some things, right? So it's beautiful, I think, now. The mainstream part that's beautiful is that we're asking that question. Who am I? What am I doing? Why do I do the things I do? How do I become whole again or remember who I am again? How do I come back to my purpose? What is it I wanted to do while I was here? So So I don't have to come back and do it again. And sometimes we have to have little notes so we remember what we did. You know, I'm not preaching to the choir. Let it go. Let it go. I came up on a journey for me, I'm telling you. Before the movie Frozen came out, okay. Yeah, so it's remembering. It is remembering. That was a good question Robert had. Yeah, he's a brilliant individual. Thank you. Leiter, Leiter coming in to us from YouTube. Always here, Leiter. Thank you so much for being here. Appreciate it. Forgiveness is releasing both parties energetically, not some grand gesture. Sounds like he's been through some of the fires of forgiveness there. Oh, yeah. Those who know, know. Yes, yes. It is true. Michelle and Patrick, this has been an amazing conversation. I'm grateful to get to sit down here with you and just talk story a little bit and figure some things out. We blew through like two hours. It was nothing. It's so crazy to think about. For me, it's such a mark of a great conversation when it goes by so fast. As we're kind of landing the plane, where can people find you? What do you have coming up? What are you excited about? So I'll let Patrick flip. He's a social media guy, so I'll let him. Okay. Well, blame it on me now. I'd have to read it. I'd have to go, okay, our IG is... So you can find us on Instagram, and we're soulreflectionsivoga. You know, our Facebook page is the same, soulreflectionsivoga. You can reach us on our email at info at soulreflections.net. And our website is solarreflections.net. You know, that's, you know, it's not about advertising. It's about starting the conversations because people want to talk about things and they're always looking where they can talk and where they, who can they, who understands. So we're trying to really open that up with that. Things that we're excited about, man, besides life. We've got amazing, some amazing retreats coming up in end of September, beginning of of October down in Mexico. We're looking to go up in the mountains of Tepoztlan and do some retreats in there, which is going to be phenomenal. We have an amazing team who we're all Buidi initiates and just lovely, lovely people to work with as well. So that's new. So we like doing these retreats in community. Like we do private ones, small ones in our home, but when we can work in community, it's so much better. I love it so much. And then we have a fire talk. So within our community, so we have a preparation community and an integration community. And every month for integration, we do a monthly fire talk. And so on June eighth, what we'll do is we'll make the link available. So it's not just for the people in the community. It's for anybody that's experienced iboga if they want to chat. So we'll put that on our, we'll make sure we put that in our Instagram and Facebook, those links so people can connect if they want to, if they want to just talk. And those talks are amazing because, you know, people are coming together and sharing what the medicine has taught them and continuing to teach them. And sometimes we have people come that did the medicine like five, seven years ago. Like, so, and it's still an impact in their life. like it's still teaching them lessons like the iboga we always say iboga never leaves you you know it stays with you forever if if you want it to you know so um it's a beautiful spirit and it has so much to teach us so two forty five we missed our one o'clock oh oh shoot Michelle, Patrick, I hope you have a beautiful day. I will sign off. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for being here today. You have a beautiful day. Hang on briefly afterwards, Michelle and Patrick. That's all we got, ladies and gentlemen. Aloha.