ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the true life podcast but this isn't the true life podcast today we have episode two a voyage of initiation I am george monty a voice from the borderlands where psyche meets spirit and the ego dissolves into symbol I've wandered through architecture of dream and shadow not to escape but to retrieve the gold buried in grief I do not guide I provoke I'm not here to teach. I'm here to remind that your suffering is a cipher, your madness, a map. And somewhere in the ruins of reason, your soul is still whispering and walking beside me as Jessica Tracy, a soul listener, a witness to the sacred unraveling. She stands at the threshold of grief and grace where trauma is not a diagnosis. but a doorway to deeper knowing. Jessica has walked with death and returned with the scent of the eternal on her skin. She holds space the way a tree holds lightning, still, rooted, and radiant. Not to fix, not to save, but to remember what the soul has always known. Together this is the voyage of initiation, a ritual of return, a remembering of the soul's path through psyche, symbol, shadow, and star. Here we do not numb the ache, we kneel beside it. until it speaks. Jessica, thanks for being here for this voyage of initiation. Episode two. How are you? Thank you. I'm doing great. I'm super excited. It is exciting. You've been up to quite a bit of things over on your side. I've been traveling around quite a bit. Maybe you could help the listeners who want to keep up to date with some of the things you're doing. What have you been up to? sure um let's see so uh not too long ago I spent some time in peru and in peru I was actually spending time to work with the san pedro medicine wachuma and I know we talked a little bit about that last time I also had an opportunity to spend some time working with the shamans and learning from uh the cuero shamans as well as the medicine woman and music man that was there as well so that was an incredible experience um quite a journey so obviously going there not only for my own um emotional healing um and just like really eye-opening experiences and we can talk about this more I know we talked a little bit about last time about my acupuncture experience um but just such such incredible learnings um from working with these wonderful people so That was a really beautiful experience. I recently had the opportunity to go to work with a Celtic shaman, actually, as well. And that was in Winnipeg, Canada, out of all places. She just so happened to be traveling from Ireland, where she normally teaches, to hold a workshop in Winnipeg. And that's about fifteen minutes from my partner's parents' house. I said, wow, this is another very unique synchronicity. happening right now. So I need to be here and learn from this woman. I've been studying under her for quite some time with her books. And yeah, so that was a beautiful experience. And obviously doing my work with Jungian Coaching, blending all of the kind of practices that I'm learning from these different healing traditions into the coaching modality. And actually through that unique experience that I had in Peru with the acupuncture, I've now actually taken on a new initiative to now train in acupuncture as well. One of the things I really came to realize is and obviously we always know this how how much um trauma is stored in the body and how much we carry it and to to develop and have tools to help individuals you know move and let go of that physical trauma that gets stored in the body um you know after we go through and explore what's going on with the in the unconscious mind was really important to me um so that and then doing some work with um psychedelics as well so I have a psychedelic retreat coming up in the next two months. And then also, of course, doing the work with Enthea, where we're helping employers and unions to cover psychedelic medicine for their employees. And that's been, you know, really rewarding as well to help people get broader access to these medicines. So just that they're top of mind right now. Shout out to the great Sherry Reyes, who's co-piloting over there with you and a great team, by the way, you guys are doing amazing things. You know, when I I heard you bring up some incredible words that always get me thinking, and it's like trauma, tools, experience. And the question that comes to me, Jessica, and I can't wait to get your opinion on this, is that the trip is easy. Like so many of us, we can do the trip. The trip is easy. The return is holy. I'm sorry. I kind of flapped that question. The trip is easy. What do we know about coming back? It seems to me coming back from the trip is like the difficult part, whether you want to call it integration or whatever you want to call it, like going out and taking it. Yeah, it takes courage to take a big dose or it takes courage to go somewhere and be part of a ceremony. But the coming back from the trip seems to be the hard part. What are your thoughts on that? Oh, I agree. I mean, you're coming back a new person. You know, when you go and you work with these medicines, a part of you is going to die. Like, it's guaranteed. A part of you is going to die. And, you know, I think that that's a new experience for many people. And when you come back, you need to learn, okay, now how do I show up in this world, you know, my world, as this new version of myself, where some of those aspects that maybe I leaned on, maybe I relied on, maybe it was just habitual, whether I liked it or not, it was just habitual. are no longer there and it can feel uncomfortable and it can be a bit difficult and we know that the true transformation really happens in the work that you do after you are of course going to have a mystical experience you know through the medicine and there will be some change in some shift that happens but if you don't do the work you will end up kind of like shifting back into your old ways So it can be difficult, I think, to come back as this new version of yourself and just really try to understand, well, how do I show up now? How do I want to show up now? And how do I maybe adjust some things about myself to integrate the learnings, the lessons, the teachings that I received from the medicine? So it definitely can be challenging, I think, also to I think sometimes you can maybe see that a lot of what you had worried about or cared about or put a lot of stock into perhaps doesn't have the same level of meaning for you anymore. And that can be maybe a bit confusing to understand. And also perhaps some of the people, places, and things that you once engaged with no longer feel the same feel they may feel different or off or maybe not fully aligned um and perhaps you know you could also feel a bit lost because now some of the the things that you thought or believed in or or held true um to some extent before uh you know no longer fit into this new version of yourself So while I say all of these things can be challenging and uncomfortable, it's also an incredible spot to be in. It's a beautiful spot to be in. And it's a spot that many people don't have the opportunity to sit in. And it's just an opportunity for just you to really take a look at what's true for you. what are your knowings and what, who are you truly underneath of all the programs, you know, kind of everything that we've learned or been told the shoulds and shouldn'ts. So who are you underneath it all? So it's this really incredible opportunity to pause and start to like peel back the onion, learn, unlearn mostly, and then relearn. things that are true for you. Find a path that is aligned for you. So while difficult, it's also a really beautiful opportunity that most people don't have the benefit of sitting in. I like the way you put that. But it brings up a question to me. And the question is, Don't we all have, like, I think, at least in my opinion, I think we all have that opportunity. It's just whether you're willing to sit with it. Maybe you don't have time. Like, if you're working sixty hours a week or fifty hours a week and you got a family, you have all these things that are begging for your attention. It's very difficult to sit with yourself and try to figure out how to unlearn these patterns that you're submersed in. Like, that sounds pretty accurate, right? What do you see from a Jungian lens from that perspective? Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. And thank you for clarifying that because yes, we always have that opportunity to sit and just evaluate where we're at. Is it right for us? Is it our truth? I think sometimes there's just so much going on in our lives, in the world. There's so many distractions. really purposefully so, there's so many distractions that don't allow us to be able to sit with ourselves. And I shouldn't say don't allow us because we always have the choice, but perhaps kind of blind us from our ability to sit with ourselves and to do this deep exploration that is needed to really Get under the hood and kind of like see what's going on and just get a greater awareness Of what actually is happening and and what you want to do about it Yeah, it's really well said it brings up a question I have on the screen up here and it's who benefits from you staying exactly as you are That's a pretty big question to think about but what are your thoughts on that? Nobody Nobody, right? Nobody. I mean, even if like, let's say you try like, you know, let's say you have a truth. Okay. And this is something, you know, from a personal experience a long time ago, let's say there's a truth and maybe that truth might hurt somebody. So you don't want to share that truth to protect somebody else. So you might think, like at that time, I thought I was doing the right thing by holding on to that truth because it might protect the other individual. But then I realized, and I've had some great teachers too, to help me also explore this further. Then I realized like that doesn't do anybody any good. You know, one, it holds my truth in, and two, the person on the other side doesn't have the opportunity to grow and evolve. through that truth, right? Because that was a truth for them as well, that they needed to hear and they needed to see. And by having access to that truth that I had to share, they then could take that information and use it as part of their own evolution. And by holding that back, by me thinking I'm protecting someone is actually hurting them and it's hurting me. It's such a brilliant answer, especially when you start looking at it through different generations. Like I know that a lot of people, myself included sometimes, like I looked at my parents and I'm like, I can't believe they did this, you know, or maybe you have an elder or maybe you're a parent and you're looking at your kid like on the opposite spectrum. We can all be teachers. You don't have to be an elder to really be a teacher. Sometimes it's the youth. Sometimes it's your child that brings this question to you. Why did you do that? This is how I felt about that. And those are the thorny topics you're talking about. Like something maybe happened. Maybe the kid got molested or maybe something happened and you are trying to hold that truth in because you don't want to hurt your family or something like that. But you're denying your family the evolution to move forward and yourself the idea to move forward if you hold in your own truth. What are your thoughts? Absolutely. I mean, I know this, too, from a lot of families struggle with mental health disorders. And how do you talk to mental health disorders that run in the family? And I know many families that might keep that close and might not share it with even others in the family. And again, I believe that once you share that information, that is information that the other person is supposed to have so that they can know what to do about it and how to maybe perhaps change the trajectory of the lineage by having access to that information. So it's super powerful. And I believe everyone is a teacher. Everyone is a student and everyone is a teacher at all times. There's never anybody who's just a teacher or just a student. And we're always playing these roles interchangeably throughout our lives. So, yeah, absolutely. Children are are amazing teachers and we are teaching them, but they are teaching us every single day. Nature is an incredible teacher, you know, just sitting outside and looking at nature. You're giving gifts all the time from nature as teachers. I mean, that happens to me. In Peru, there was this really unique experience where I was sitting there and this hummingbird flew over me, really big hummingbird, one of the largest types of hummingbirds. And she just flew over me and she just stayed there, stayed there, stayed there, right? And there was a small, tiny hummingbird that I could see out of the corner of my eye, and it was over here. And what kind of came to me is that I have this opportunity and I couldn't really see the other hummingbird, right? But I had this opportunity to watch this like masterpiece in front of me that was just like staying here for me to see, just staying there. And I had the opportunity to see and experience her. And if I looked away, then I might lose the opportunity. And I did it for a while and then I looked away. And as soon as I looked away at the distraction, gone. You know, it's just like such a simple, such like a beautiful moment to remember, like presence is so incredibly important and to not get caught up in the distractions of life. Because when you do, you can miss a really unique and beautiful opportunity to engage or see something that you otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity to. Yeah. It's so well said. I think that that same sort of moment happens in time of crisis. You know, crisis are sort of like psychedelics or altered states of awareness in that it strips away all the distractions because now you're present in the moment, whether it's something that happened in your family or something to a loved one. All of a sudden, all these things that you were worrying about, all these distractions about like, well, I'm going to pay that bill or am I going to get that thing done? All those things fall away. And now you're just here with the present moment. And there's some real clarity that happens in those moments. People make... People can live a whole lifetime in a moment. You know, it's interesting to think about the language there and just being present. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you know, some of the most challenging situations and challenging times in people's lives, most traumatic times in people's lives are where the most growth and transformation happens. And it's not easy and it's devastating sometimes. But, you know, I think that you can always look back with gratitude and understand perhaps that was, you know, what was needed for my evolution. You know, they say we come into this life with agreements with other people. You know, we already have kind of soul contracts and agreements with others. And we, when people come into our lives or, you know, sometimes it's, they're only meant to be in our lives for a certain period of time, right? And those people are teachers and students at the same time. And sometimes we have these really traumatic and challenging situations where we may lose people or people may move out of our lives and for whatever reason, but they're only meant to be there for a certain period of time because they are our sole contract. And there is this agreement of you need to come into my life for this part of my evolution And then for whatever period of time. And sometimes we have the opportunity to have people that we love and care about in our lives for a long period of time. And sometimes it's short. But there's always a reason. And sometimes it's hard to understand while we're in it. When I think about a soul contract, is that Jungian? Or are those two related? Or how does that relationship work? That's a good question. I mean, I've just, I've explored this mostly like within just like kind of spiritual context, um, soul contracts and soul agreements. Um, you know, I think maybe you could tie it, connect it with like, um, synchronicities and, and, and patterns, um, perhaps, um, and also like, um, the process of individuation that others are going to come into our lives to help support our process of self-realization and individuation, because we can't do it on our own. For example, relationships are super challenging. They're never... smooth sailing, a hundred percent easy. They're always, no matter what, no matter how much you love someone, they're always gonna be a challenge. But they are your greatest teachers, whether it's an intimate relationship, a relationship with your children, a relationship with a close friend, Those are those connections that we need because ultimately they're mirrors of ourselves. And if we don't have that mirror in front of us or that person to point out or pour salt on our wounds or to shed light on the trauma or what we're still carrying, we can't do the work. you know sometimes it's it's easy to think well if I'm just not here then I don't have to feel this way I don't have to experience you know that's maybe like just kind of do I really have to work through this one you know is it really necessary but the reality of it is if you're if you're here to you know I do believe we are here to one learn and two to be able to become like the fullest expression of ourselves because we have so much to offer that can help other people not only here to above ourselves, but to offer our gifts to each other in community. And the only way to really do that, I think, is to keep coming into more and more and more of yourself. And to do so, you do have to go through this evolution process of just inner exploration, self-exploration, looking at those wounds and learning from them. Because most of the time when they happen, we're kind of so in the trauma that it's hard to really learn from it. You are learning, but oftentimes it's kind of later that you can look back and see, oh my gosh, now I understand. Like, look at me now because of this situation. I love it. It reminds me, I heard a quote a while back and I can't attribute the quote to the person that said it. So I will just say that I heard this quote somewhere and it's along the lines of that initiation isn't walking through the flame. It's understanding that you are the flame. And I think that speaks to the idea of like, yeah, you're going to burn people. And when you come through the initiation, maybe you have a sense of righteousness. But what do you think about that? Instead of walking through the flame, becoming the flame. Hmm. I almost think of it as you're both, right? It's a constant dance between being the flame and walking through the flame. It's, I think that you're in partnership with the flame. I think that you are, it's like that, maybe you're like anima, animus, right? It's like, we need to be doing both. We need to be walking through the flame and we also are the flame for other people. And again, like that's that like, triggering that we're going to do for other people and other people are going to do for us and it's super frustrating and challenging but that is what helps us to see what is inside that needs some some further exploration so yeah I would say that we're we're we're both really Yeah. It's such a beautiful frame because when you think of the flame, you think of the light. You also think of the heat. You also think of the potential to see your way in the dark. I don't know. When I think of initiation, I can't help but see that frame of the flame. Initiation is such a deep word, and it means so much to different people. When you think of initiation, when I say the word initiation, what do you think of? I think initiation is coming into. It's coming into. It's becoming. It is a rite of passage. It is a birthing. It's almost like a claiming of who you really are. I find it to be very ancestral as well. this initiation of just like awakening to who you truly are, what you're here to do or to be, and how can you kind of carry forth your lineage and help spread whatever you're here to offer to the world. I love it. It's interesting to think about how initiation seems to come with an ordeal maybe that's the flame we were talking about but I think the ordeal is something that a lot of people are afraid to go through maybe it's a tragedy but I really like the word ordeal and I see it in the psychedelic experience and a lot of the times I see the lack there of the ordeal You know what I mean by that? Like you can go and take a class or you can go and sit in a classroom and learn about the ordeal, but it's a whole different world when you have to go through that ordeal on some level. What are your thoughts on that? You have to be it, right? You have to look for, for, for this. Like it makes me think of the word embodiment, right? You can just, like you said, you can learn things in a book, um, but without fully, I think like experiencing just like the magic of life, the tragedies of life, you're not fully embodying all that you're meant to endure in order to become and shift into this new version of yourself. And we talk about like, energy, right? We are ultimately energy. And part of this kind of evolution process is shifting into different levels of energy or different types of energy. And sometimes these catastrophic experiences or challenging, tragic experiences or ordeal experiences are what's going to help shake you to see like where you're at right now and how does this feel for you and are you meant to be here or is there something more and greater for you um and I think You know, for example, like grief, right? They talk about grief obviously is extremely, extremely challenging, but something that I saw, and I know this very much to be true, is that it also allows you to connect to authenticity, which is ultimately, you know, kind of the highest form of evolution is to be fully authentic. And some would say it's enlightenment, but I've seen others say it's authenticity, and I think that that's true. And grief allows you to really set in when you can fully, fully, fully let go into it. It allows you to fully, fully embrace your authenticity of what you're experiencing. and to fully settle into that. And I think it's these types of experiences that allow us to connect to aspects of us that we wouldn't otherwise have the ability to touch, to see, to experience, to to live, to turn on. Like we are such like incredible creatures, you know, that have so many different facets to us and literally so many different aspects of us ourselves to really like explore and engage and of course the goal is to always like harmonize and come to this this wholeness but that is part of understanding um and tapping into and connecting and seeing and knowing all parts of us so I believe that these experiences allow these other parts to awaken to turn on to perhaps um integrate um yeah so I think that uh It helps us to connect, to touch, see, feel, embody, become more alive as well. Yeah, it's a great point. Grief is such a good teacher. I want to do a little thought experiment, Jessica. I'm going to try something out here. Okay, so for you, myself, and everybody in the listening audience, I want everyone just to close their eyes for a minute and think of something you're ashamed of. Just take a moment to think about something. We've all done it. Don't pretend like you haven't done something. Everybody's done it. So just take a moment to think about something that maybe you're ashamed of. Okay, now come back for a minute. What role does that play, Jessica? We've all done this experiment. We've thought of something shameful that we've done that we're ashamed of. What's the purpose of that? What's the role of shame in our lives? What can we learn from it? I mean, I think shame can teach us another, there's like so many aspects to this question, so many angles to this question. You know, I think when we think about shame, it's often something that we've stuffed deep down into our shadows. It's our shadow side. And our shadow has often been there to protect us. and perhaps that we've done things or said things or not done things that we feel ashamed of, right? But at that point, for whatever reason, there was a reason that you did, said, thought, whatever it might be, that thing. And that feeling of shame, I think, can teach you, one, is that the person that I truly am, perhaps? Is that the person that, and if not, then who do I want to be? Is this, did this happen because there's some level of protection or some need that wasn't being met that needed attention? And perhaps maybe that's a sign that like, well, maybe I wasn't, giving to myself in the way that I needed to. If there was some sort of thing that someone did out of survival, perhaps, it's always showing up for you to say, well, what happened in that moment? What did I need in that moment? Why did I choose that specific thing to do? um in uh in that moment or series of moments whatever it is situation um and why did I choose that how did it make me feel would I have done something differently or chosen something differently if I were to look back on it now who did it make me become who did I choose to become after the fact and then is there anything that is still needed um due to that situation um that has happened so it's just an incredible uh opportunity to explore yourself um sometimes there's like you know if you think about shadow it's repressed um desires it's it's suppressed emotions it's um it's suppressed needs it's repressed memories that still need attention um so all of these things are going to sit in your psyche and if not explored you might perhaps act out of that shadow And sometimes like acting out of that shadow could be a call from your psyche to say, hey, there's something that is needed in here that you're not providing to me. Or there's something that needs further exploration or needs healing that you're not providing, that you, you know, self is not giving enough attention. So I think there are always just like opportunities to kind of explore the what, why, how to figure out how to best move forward and what to learn from it. That's a brilliant answer. Thank you. That's a tough question to answer on the spot, right? I think you did a great job about it. You know what's an interesting feeling too is like when you feel these emotions, be it grief or shame, and then you get in the presence of the person with whom you may be ashamed, whatever happened. And now you have like this shared experience of shame or grief. And it's – do you think that – I don't think there's a question. I think the other person can feel it, but sometimes it's a mystery of whose shame it is. You ever get into that situation with someone and it's really uncomfortable because something happened between you and you don't really know how that other person feels, but you feel a certain way? It's an interesting dynamic to be in the presence of someone else who may also hold shame. How do you interpret that? What do you do in those situations? What do you think is going on there? I think that we're always going to be... depending on like how connected you are to like your own personal energetic field and how I guess like sensitive or in tune you are to other people's energies, you're gonna feel that. to a greater or lesser degree, depending on where you're at. But I think in general, most people will be able to experience and know that. And it's probably something that feels quite uncomfortable. And I always think, personally, the best path there is always just transparency and honesty. It's always the way. You have to trust yourself to make sure. is that the right path is that you know right at this time is perhaps comfort needed perhaps like just being open and asking questions but always starting with honesty I think is oh and integrity is always going to be the best path forward to just maybe bring up like hey this is how I'm feeling and And I wanted to also just check in on you to see how you're feeling. But I think always just like open, honest dialogue is always gonna be the best place to start. Yeah, it's interesting too. I think sometimes when we find ourselves beginning to walk in a new form of awareness, we can really pick up on other people's feelings or other people's the way they feel. And sometimes that can be pretty confusing too. I know that you have felt that on many ways. How do you deal with that for someone who maybe is starting to come to this new sense of awareness? Like there seems to be an awakening happening everywhere I look and people are kind of coming into this new understanding of, hey, maybe it's not me that feels it. Maybe it's this person that feels that way. How would you help someone navigate that sort of new awakening or that new sense of awareness? Great question. You know, I just thought of something for you. Yeah. I think the shame is really important to talk about, too, because like oftentimes it's something to actually be shameful about. You know, sometimes like we're carrying the shame, but. it's more of like a, I should have done this or I shouldn't have done this. But when you really explore the situation with like love and compassion for yourself, you know, almost as you would as kind of like if you were parenting a child, right? And if you were your parent and you were looking at yourself in that situation, And, you know, perhaps that that shame is not fully warranted. It's something that we naturally carry, you know, because of societal norms, should and shouldn't like just culture everything. But perhaps like that shame isn't I shouldn't say it's fully warranted, obviously your feelings are always warranted, but maybe the level of shame that you're carrying yourself is not necessarily aligned with what actually happened. So I think talking through things and being vulnerable and transparent and honest, is really important. One, it's important for the shadow self to transition from shift or transcend from darkness into light. It's also the process where all of the lessons, a lot of the lessons will start to like birth and come into form as you kind of start to let go of some of that shame and talk about it and be open about it. You'll start to, I think, gain lessons through that experience, like wisdom through that experience. And I think also one thing that we have a really hard time or maybe perhaps lacking in sometimes is self-compassion. Again, like if we were we are so hard on ourselves, we beat ourselves up. so often and in like pretty brutal ways, you know? And if these things that we are ashamed of, if we share that with like, again, if you were a child talking to your parents, um what would be given back to that child is is like you know you have to just learn from it you know what did you learn from it how will you do things differently now how will you go back if there was anyone else involved how can you like make things right or just now be you know loving kind of kind loving um and as possible in the situation um and then um and to just like provide compassion to the individual going through the experience so oftentimes we don't do that for ourselves and we don't tell anybody else so we just beat ourselves up and hold that and it just kind of gets darker and bigger in our shadow And then it starts to react in all different ways that we don't intend to and don't even realize it sometimes. So I think that kind of having self-compassion and trying to find the learning and the lesson and transform that into wisdom. And then also maybe there's something that you can do better moving forward. I think that's really what's most important out of those scenarios. And then to go back to the question now, yes, I experienced this quite often actually. And it was really confusing for me at first because I would, you know, I would be feeling pretty intense emotions and they would be quite overwhelming. And perhaps I would feel as though I wasn't reacting as fully like I was more reactive or not being like fully myself, or there was different aspects of myself that might be arising or coming up that maybe I wouldn't normally be expressing. And And what was really helpful for me to, one, realize what was going on was to like fully step out of the situation. And for me, it was actually going to the woods. So going to the woods and walking in nature, sitting by a river, by a stream of water, sitting by the trees. And when I did that, I a lot of I guess what wasn't mine would clear. It would leave. And then I would experience who I truly am without all of the other energies kind of in my in my field. And and then I could like kind of get this foundation of. What is my energy? How do I feel? So then when I would go back into these situations and I would start to feel these pretty intense emotions or energies, then I could start to discern, okay, perhaps this isn't mine. I'm picking up on somebody else's and maybe what can I do in this situation? What do they need or how can I now better understand the other person based on what I'm feeling right now. It's like, you know, it's challenging, but it can also be super beneficial to know, OK, maybe I can be a little bit more caring, a little bit more gentle or a little bit more like curious right now in this situation. But there's this process to really discern that it's really hard, actually. to be able to do, to discern, and then also to like then not like react from that place when you're experiencing those emotions pretty intensely at the same time. Yeah, it's really well said. And it brings up so much that's happening in this world. Recently, I was at a PTA meeting of sorts. And one of the parents got up and they said, listen, my child has a real problem with anxiety. They're really anxious all the time. And it got me thinking about what you had just answered is that we are feeling the emotions, the system, all of these societal pressures are just weighing down on us. And a lot of them are shame and grief of not being enough. And when we have those feelings and we bottle them up, we transmute them to our kids and our kids are feeling that on some level. There's not a whole lot of education about there. Like what is the purpose of grief or what is the purpose of guilt? And one of the best answers I heard to that was a mentor that I had. I remember I was feeling really guilty about my life and not being enough. I was telling my friend Ed about it, and he goes, George, you're misunderstanding. Guilt is not there to make you feel bad. It's not there to make you sit in it. Guilt is an emotion that comes up so that you can be aware not to do something again. And once you realize that, you don't have to hold it anymore. But you don't see that education out there. Might that be something that we could be teaching in schools about the purpose of guilt or the purpose of shame, sort of like you're explaining now? All of this. I mean, we should be teaching about just this is like emotional intelligence, right? Yeah, right. Totally. It's not taught. How are we not taught emotional intelligence? How are we not taught about mental health? You know, right now it's just like everything's a label. You know, I'm seeing this like with children. Everything's a label. So, you know, kids are walking around saying, oh, I have ADHD. Like it's a badge of honor. Like because it's something that they can say like it or I have anxiety. There's a song, you know, that's out that my that. I'm hearing where kids are saying like my anxiety it's my anxiety and it's like spelling you know putting in their heads and they're seeing these these words so there's no education around um around emotional intelligence um around mental health for children and there absolutely needs to be um because if we can if they can better understand emotions and especially like when kids are you know um you know, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, their emotions are super intense at that time. And they don't have the tools to understand how to navigate them. And, you know, they'll lash out or they'll get, you know, maybe super quiet into themselves. But I think that this is something that schools absolutely just like even the most baseline things like what What is it? And perhaps it's not using terms like anxiety or ADHD, it's just explaining how you will feel. And then what can you do about that feeling to help express and to help perhaps move it through the body? Because right now it's so much of just like, put it away. It's not allowed, put it away. Right. But how can we like experience these emotions, learn from the emotion and learn how to express the emotion creatively or express the emotion in a healthy way? That will just change so much for our future, you know, like generations. But it's not it's not taught at all. Yeah, it's really well said. And it kind of reminds me of two myths, Jessica. I think you're gonna like this one. So there's the myth of the scapegoat and the sacrificial lamb. And I think the sacrificial lamb came first and then the scapegoat came after. But it sounds to me like what we're doing with these labels is we're providing a scapegoat when what we really need is a sacrificial lamb. We have the scapegoat of giving a label. You have anxiety. You have ADHD. That's the scapegoat. Now you can just let that go and you don't think you have to deal with it again. But what you really need to do is sacrifice that lamb and teach kids like, hey, we got to stop this. We got to have this sacrificial lamb about ADHD or the language in there. The language is so important on that. What are your thoughts? Yeah, well, then it's just like, what are we setting these children up for, right? Pharma app, right? Because as soon as I see this on my kids' iPads, it's like they have ads coming up in front of them. And it's, I mean, it's really like, it's devastating what I'm seeing. I told them as soon as I saw it. Like, it was this boat thing where it says, like, nobody can solve this. What did it say? I've seen that. oh my gosh only psychopaths can solve this was how it started and then it said if you can solve it you have adhd like it was this prize to win and it was the most simple thing to do but it showed the person doing it wrong like how messed up is that right and then they're getting ads so then they're told they have these these conditions and then they're getting ads for pharmaceuticals like who knows at what age that you know what happened through on these ipads I mean it's just it's devastating it's truly devastating so If we can arm children with information around like, again, it's not necessarily labels, but it's how does something feel in your body? And then how do you talk about that feeling? How does that connect to thoughts that are going on in your mind? What are different tools that you can do to express? Perhaps it's through words. Perhaps it's through drawing. Perhaps it's through music. Perhaps it's through dance. What are different tools that you can tap into or use now to regulate? I think this self-regulation is so, it's not taught as well, right? Because now we have iPads and phones that people can just, that kids can just grab onto and they can just use that to kind of distract themselves. And again, it's now we're teaching like distractions and it's not, it's intentional it's just the the state of where we're at right now that we have to be like super cognizant of like what's actually happening um and I think kids just need um they're gonna need a lot more tools around um self-discipline um self-regulation uh just like greater education around like um distractions and how to like stay um focused as well and then also how to um engage in the world off of the screen. Yeah. Yeah, it sounds so much like self-care, like self-love, self-respect, all these things about the self. What about, I think this is a good place for symbols, Jessica. What are the symbols that reflect that? Can we use some sort of, is there a symbol for self-love that you're aware of? Well, I think there's a lot of symbols. Self-love. Well, I think, I mean, obviously going back to like the, the natural of like, um, I think like, uh, let me say I've got some, yeah, let's see. No, I think the. Symbols of self-love, I think, are kind of just like symbols of self, right? It's self and psyche. So, you know, this is kind of like psychic equilibrium right here, just kind of like alignment, you know, within, across ourselves. These are some of my young and coaching cards. um but even um something like this this is um psychic libido and this is the harmonization of the anima and the animus you have to um you have to harmonize and and find unity between your masculine and your feminine um I think in order and and fully love all aspects of yourself um let's see what else I have here yeah let's see those are awesome cars but what are those those are young and cards or what are those Yeah, so the Jungian coaching school that I went to, the International Jungian Coaching School, which was founded by Dr. Avi Boren, he invented Jungian coaching and he came up with these cards that are ultimately just kind of like representations of or symbols of archetypes of the collective unconscious. So there are ways that when we're in our sessions, oftentimes we'll look for symbols intuitively that may come through for a dilemma or a situation. But sometimes it's good to have cards in front of you so that you can, when you're working on the dilemma and I share these cards, your psyche is going to say, for whatever reason, This one is super interesting to me right now. I don't know why, but something just like sparked up inside of me when I saw this card. And then we can explore this card and this is the trickster card. So something within your psyche is telling you that, okay, the trickster needs to come out and play or the trickster could be, you know, a potential resource here for you to engage with. And, you know, there's some words on the back here, instinctual, manipulative, artistic, clever, and something like that. Like if I looked at that and I said manipulative, That's that's something that's going to give me pause and I'm not going to want to go there because obviously manipulation like really upsets me. And so that word could perhaps like bring up a past experience or a wound that needs healing that I would have never like I might have asked a question about, I don't know, the rain. And then all of a sudden it's like manipulation and all of a sudden something like fires up inside of me or burns inside of me. I'm like, I don't want to go there. that's experience no uh but then all of a sudden now we have to deal with it so it's like but the psyche is what um your intuition is what will out of all these cards in front of me will say for some reason this one and then all of a sudden you once you see some of the words you're like oh damn it yeah I know why Yeah, I was so excited. I'm like, yeah, the trickster. And then I'm like, oh, wait a minute. Manipulating. Yeah, yeah, it's there. It's there. It's interesting to see. This would be awesome. Like on some level, this kind of education could be brilliant for kids because it would really get them in tune with the different archetypes and help them understand on some level that, hey, look, we play all these different roles. And it's interesting to think about the role of roles and growing up on some level, right? Yeah. When I see this too, like with my kids, like I see different aspects of them come out. Yeah, of course. All of a sudden it's like the lover, like full on, so cuddly, so loving, you know, then like they need something. So the trickster comes out to play. Then all of a sudden the magician is here because they like magically like, you know, want to do something. And then all of a sudden it's like this dark side that comes out and it's like, oh Jesus, how are we going to deal with this? You know? And then other times it's like ego because like, you know, see me, see me, see me. I need to be seen. And I think what happens is like we all have like kids very much express like the I think the variety of archetypes that we all have within our collective unconscious and like some show more intense, some, some don't, some, you know, maybe span across a lot of them. Some may only like show others or maybe that changes over age. But I think like So understand that, hey, these are all aspects of you. You get to choose when to utilize these aspects. When is it right for you to utilize these aspects? and kind of create and become self, yourself. So perhaps you are more comfortable being more dominant in the trickster archetype. Maybe that's you. For me, it's the child, the innocent. And when I saw that, I was like, what? And then I remember when I was younger, my math teacher always, he would always say, Jessica, you're so naive. You're so naive. You're so naive. And I was like, should I be offended? I'm not sure. But like the, you know, that I think we, and I think as I got older, I, through experiences, I lost some of that innocence and I lost some of that, that naivety, however you say that word. And I think when I realized that, I was like, wow, like that actually is a, a, a part of me that I really, I think, suppressed in order to protect myself. You can't be naive. You can't be innocent because it'll get taken advantage of. And I think that if I had a better understanding of these different aspects of myself, then perhaps I would have protected that aspect of me in a different way and maybe found more honor around that aspect of myself, not saying, oh, this is like babyish or childish and needs to get stuffed away when you're younger. And then it becomes when you're older, okay, now how do I integrate these parts of me back into who I am now? Because obviously that's a core element that needs to be integrated or that's part of my work or my mission here. Yeah, it's a great point. It Being naive on some level is so beautiful because I think it speaks to the idea of you seeing the world in a way that is harmonious. And it may not be true, but it protects us on some level from living, from becoming too... What's the right word I want to use? It protects us from sliding into just some dark spots sometimes. I think we all do it. I want to bring in the audience right here because I got some questions stacking up for us, Jessica. The first question comes to us from Eric O. Eric O. says, what is the lie you were born into and how do you escape it? Oh, the lie I was born into and how do I escape that? Yeah. Well, the first thing that comes to my mind is anxiety. Like I think that anxiety is that like that's a way of life. And I think understanding how I was living in an anxious state and to be able to to understand that like that wasn't the way I needed to live and needed to be and to like understand why I was so anxious all the time, what was underneath the anxiety and who was I without the anxiety. So I think for me, like the lie I was, I guess, born into would be, this anxious state of fear. So maybe it's fear and how much like, and I think that I've taken that to say, okay, well, when something is fearful, when I am experiencing fear for situation, obviously there's some things that you fear that you should stay away from. And, you know, we have our radar for that, but other things where it might bring up anxiety or fear, perhaps that's something that we should be walking towards and finding courage to go deeper and go further in that. um so I've used it as it's something that I experience like pretty tremendously if you're an anxiety over you know my my young life my teenage life and my young adult life and it's been at the same time as it was such like a maybe a detriment it's also been such a blessing at the same time so I think any like any of these kind of things that I was born into obviously was for me to understand and overcome but I benefited from anxiety so like you know maybe it was a lie you know that like I didn't have to be living that way right I didn't have to be living in fear and anxiety um but at the same time like that pushed me so far um and you know I think coupled with perfectionism it like to like a whole nother realm and um You know, who knows what I would have done if I wasn't dealing with that. But, you know, I look back now and all the kind of experiences and things that I've learned, it's been super beneficial for me. And it's allowed me to now be able to, like, do the work and offer what I can in the work that I do that otherwise I wouldn't have had the ability to. Yeah, it's a great answer, right? When I start peeling back the onion, Eric, I started thinking the lie that we were born into is like, we're doing it all wrong. Like, especially think about what you're born into. Like for a guy, when a baby, a lot of the times when a male is born, the first thing they do is like genital mutilation. Like you come right out into this world and they're like, we got to get rid of this. You're like, wait a minute. What if I need that? You know, like we're doing it all wrong on so many levels. You come into this clinical world. with like these crazy white lights beaming down on you. Like, what does that do to a kid's psyche? When the first thing they do is like, we gotta get rid of this or, you know, but it's more than that. Like you're kind of born into fear. Maybe that's part of an initiation too is like, okay, now you're here, here it comes. Like we're just thrust into this world where there's so much, you know, uncomfortableness and pain. And it's crazy to think about being born into a system like that, right? Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it. I mean, you're right. We all said a bunch of lies around how we should be living, what's the right way to live, what's the right way to work, how much time should we dedicate to the purpose of living, how do we heal ourselves? Well, I guess we're taught that we can't heal ourselves, right? We're taught that here's the medicine or here's a pill for that. Yep, yep. Yeah, I think everything is like, from my experience, a lot of the things that I had learned was like pretty ass backwards. Totally. All the things that I thought I should be doing was like pretty detrimental and actually like harming me in very many ways. And yeah, I think that we're definitely fed this lie, this program of how things are supposed to be. And it's just not true. And that's that kind of like unlearning and trying to figure out like who are you underneath all of it. That's maybe that's part of it. Just going to be like the first forty years, like the first thirty five years are learning to do everything wrong. And then people hit it at different ages. But maybe that's what, you know, the rite of passage and the initiation is. You have to go through all these things. until you finally had enough and you start seeing things clearly. And only you as an individual, you get to choose when your initiation is. You get to choose when you start seeing things. You get to choose when you finally had enough and that's where you start walking through that flame. What are your thoughts? Yeah, I agree. I mean, Carl Young says you're up until forty, you're just doing research, right? And like, I think like to like the way it comes, like our life is structured by the time. Yeah. Sometimes people are just so burn out between family life and work life and traumas and struggles that they're dealing with. Like people are so burn out and they can't wait to get to retirement. and often people this doesn't happen always but a lot of times by the time people get to retirement they're so tired and then once they retire they're like their health and everything starts to decline right because they haven't like really kind of like found something else to really live for oftentimes like you're living for your kids you're living for your job Right. And I think that's all backwards. Like, how are we supposed to know like who we are and who we're here to be? You know, we have all of that going on. So by the time you get to forty, like your life is really just starting. You have like an incredible opportunity to like just thrive, I believe, from here. on out you've learned so many incredible lessons you have so many experiences now you've had an opportunity to see like feel like what what feels right what doesn't feel right what have I done that I liked what have I done wrong or that I haven't liked um and then I think you start to realize too like how much you have the ability to like truly create your own reality and once you like really kind of tap into like that power that we all have to to create our own reality then, you know, where you take it is entirely up to you. And then it's like just kind of like creating your own dream. It's like lucid dreaming, you know, to really just start to like shift, to start to like put your attention towards, put your energy towards, start to make choices that are all aligned with where you want to be and where you see yourself in the future. And yeah, I mean, by four to your life is like really just beginning. Like there's so much life ahead of you. Yeah, it's a brilliant point. And it's so easy to just put everything on hold. And it starts at a young age. Like, oh, I can't wait till I'm a teenager. Oh, I can't wait till I turn eighteen. Oh, I can't wait till I'm twenty-one. I can't wait till I own a house. I can't wait till I have kids. I can't wait till I'm in retirement. But if you keep putting it off... and you and it's easy to do because you have all these distractions like ah what am I going to do if I quit there what am I going to do if I do this but if you continually put it off just taking that first step into becoming the very best version of yourself and it takes courage it takes a lot of courage to do you might have to leave a relationship you might have to leave a job but if you keep putting it off the only one you're really doing a disservice to is yourself and then of course all your relationships right don't you think yeah and you're not coming into like who you're meant to be like even for your relationships with yourself relationship with partner kids friends family like the more of you that you can come into the better for you and everyone involved if you are holding yourself back and staying the same you know um your other people are missing out on their ability to evolve by you staying the same as well as your ability so I always encourage like if there's anything like you've ever wanted to do or experience or explore but you felt like I don't know that's weird maybe it's not for me like I don't know um just just do it just go do it like literally if there's like I picked up the harp two and a half years ago why the hell did I do that like forty eight years old you know Like I've never, I've never read music. I, you know, I play the flute. I don't even know when I was a little, little kid, but it's been like, just even like that experience alone has been super transformative. You know, now at forty years old, going back to school for acupuncture again, like That's, you know, sometimes they even, like, Jessica, again, like, now you're going through something else. But, like, I know why. I have the greater vision. And it all makes sense to me, right? And you have to make, like, these pretty significant shifts in your lives. And it not only impacts me, but it impacts other people. But, again, like, that's part of the journey that's necessary. So I always say if there's anything you've ever been curious about or wanted to explore, like, just, I'll say, you know, dip your toe in, but I say just do it. Go all in. At least take one little baby step and dip the toe in, but like, just try it. Like if you want it to sing, go sing. If you want to play an instrument, go play an instrument. If you want to play a sport, like go play. Like there's, it's like almost like these aspects of play too, that like we stuff down that we're not supposed to be doing these things because we're not kids anymore. Like we are like, we just like, We are kids, right? We still have our inner child within us. And that still always wants to live and be present. And why not? That is the fun aspects of ourselves, right? But we're like, oh, no, that's not allowed. I'm an adult now. I'm a serious adult. No, this is life. Have fun. Live. you know, let these different aspects of you come out to play because that is like your vitality. That is your vibrance. That is your uniqueness. And I think that's what like allows for creativity and like different aspects of yourself to like really kind of like shine through. And again, like it doesn't benefit just you. It benefits everybody. Yeah. I love that word creativity. Like the idea of creativity is, seems to me to be an altered state of awareness and everybody knows what I'm talking about when you're doing that thing you love like time just kind of flies by or you start being having some different thoughts come up or maybe you have no thoughts at all but like you're in this moment you're really in the present moment what are your thoughts on on the idea of creativity and altered states oh yeah well I think like through creativity like some of the like pretty magical experiences have happened to me um I'll show you let me just grab yeah please let's see Um, so, okay. So here's, here's something. So I always said, I'm not creative. You know, I'm a, I'm a business woman. This was me before, you know, before psychedelics, but business woman, you know, I'm in insurance and genomics. I wear business suits. Like I'm not creative. But then once I like really started to like, uh, look back, like I was creative, I was just creative in a different way. I was creative with people, with relationships, um, with how I expressed. Um, but anyway, I, I never thought I was creative, um, artistically and, um, And then I started to paint. I started to engage in painting and in drawing and I just really like, it really turned something on in me. So I said, wow, I actually am kind of good at painting and drawing. Like what's good anyway? Everyone's good at it. Whatever comes through to you is good. You know, we just always compare to what somebody else puts out there and that's how we say if it's good or not. But anyway, so I've started to paint more and I got a teacher to teach me how to work with oil paints and we had some homework to do. And then I had two assignments. I had like, you know, half hour to do it. And then all of a sudden it was like, there was something I really wanted to paint. So I said, all right, I'm going to paint this. So I started painting this. And this is a tree with a bed inside the bed. So with a bed inside, it's kind of like the safe space to go. Plants are here. There's ivy drawing all around. And this image of like this red bed came up. And I started drawing these little flowers, too. I've never seen flowers like this. and it's a lot of red over red so I'm like why do I keep drawing this red over red so anyway I'm just like going with it I allowed it to this vision that I needed to get down on paper to come through I um allowed you know more of this red stuff to red flowers to come on and then um I finished it and this is kind of like you know sometimes when I uh when I get anxious or anything like that my safe space is always like going into a tray so um fast forward so I drew this I was like okay it was a nice quick little fun drawing that I did that felt good and then fast forward you know a month later I get to peru for this um san pedro ayahuasca or san pedro retreat and um All over this place, just in this retreat center, are these tiny little flowers that look like this that the hummingbirds sit on. So I was just amazed at just this kind of like visionary experience that came through. So I put this down on paper. I did. It felt really good. And then to now go and see kind of the synchronicity of these flowers all around the Moloka where we were, you know, working with the medicine, as well as in some other places where I would just go sit and kind of integrate. So it was just such a beautiful experience to see like what your creativity, creativity is like. You know, it's like, and it is, it's messengers, it's, it's teaching you about yourself, about yourself, you know, it is allowing different aspects of yourself to come through and to be shared with the world. So I just find, well, one, we're all creative. right it is our like innate nature and it's also something we're supposed to be doing like it is we're supposed to be living through creativity because it's an authentic expression of self and authentic expression of self is what's really needed um in this world for ourselves and others. So it's medicine, it's healing, it brings joy, it helps to move emotions out, it helps to, you know, it's also really helpful for processing trauma and also like understanding what's going on within the unconscious. I work a lot with art with my clients because it's helpful to explore your shadow It's also helpful to get messages from your psyche to help you understand what's going on with the dilemma and to get like basically like little bits of wisdom from your psyche to come through in art to say, hey, here's some ideas on how to move through this or how to move forward in this. I love it. It's so interesting to think about how the act of sitting down and writing or drawing or painting or creating at some level can manifest real change in your life and the way we understand information. There was a really cool study done a long time ago about people with epilepsy. And they took these people that had epilepsy really bad, and they cut the corpus callosum, which is the little strand that goes between the right and the left hemisphere. And what they found is that it stopped people from having seizures, but they found some really interesting evidence too that they did studies with these people that had their corpus callosum cut, and they would take the pin in their right hand, and they would ask them what do you want to be what did you want to be when you were older and they would write down like fireman or policeman or teacher and they would put the pen in their left hand and ask them the same question and it would be like astronaut artist and they were trying to figure out like whoa what's going on here and they figured out on some level like the the two different hemispheres and the way it thinks but I think that that particular experiment speaks to the idea of creation. And sometimes we lose that idea of what we really want it to be, or we think we lose it, but it's always there. It's back to the inner child and it comes back to drawing and it comes back to maybe the shadow work and Carl Jung on some level. It's pretty fascinating to think about, right? How it's always there. yeah it's always there it does it does need to be awakened I think it does be nurtured too yes it definitely needs to be nurtured um and I think it's very easy you know especially like the the age that we're at with like social media and um and the phone and technology like there's so many distractions so you think like since I'll be on here it's like okay well I'm consuming right I'm on social media consuming right, where I can be creating. And that was like a big shift for me just to, you know, if I'm sitting here and I'm consuming so much, like, how does that feel versus me actually like creating something? But yeah, it's super important. And if you see like little kids, they're creating all the time, they're constantly creating. And like, if you see like the joy that they experience through that creation and like the light that comes on and like all the like really magical things that they end up bringing to life, if we can take that same that same curiosity and activities into our adult lives. I mean, that's where some of like the most, you know, remarkable inventions come forth, right? Young is a pretty good quote. I can't remember it right now, but on how nothing really is invented without play. Like we're not going to get anything new or revolutionary if we're not playing. We have to play and creativity of course is play. Yeah, it's a great point. It makes me just think about how much time is often wasted through the structures of authority. Like you got to do it this way or learn from this person or there. Like it's such a better method to go and experiment and have the lived experience of trying something new and getting to see it different on so many different levels. yeah it is so stifling honestly yeah right under that type of like growing up and being in different um roles I've been under that type of uh management and it is it can be debilitating to be honest it's like you you have to like fit into this mold of what someone else the structure of someone else deemed to be the appropriate way to to sell or present or, or whatever it might be. And it's so stifling. Like if, you know, if you think about like employers. Yeah. You can teach your employees to be creative and to lead with creativity. Imagine what they could come up with if they're celebrated around creativity, even if it's not something that you move forward with. I'm working with an individual at Enthea, and he's graduating college soon, so young students. And he's doing some work in sales with me in business development. And I am using none of the traditional sales tactics or anything that, you know, I was taught through the books around sales. None of that. It's all around encouraging his creativity, encouraging him to be bold, encouraging him to be explorative. All, all, you know, with integrity and authenticity. That's the number one. I want you to be courageous and I want you to be bold and I want you to be creative, but it has to be, you have to be authentic with everything you do. And with everything you do, you also have to carry a high level of integrity. And through that, he's been able to be pretty successful. And I find his growth is happening at a more frequent pace than my experience when I was told, this is how you have to do it. I would get into these situations or presentations, and I would feel afraid that if I said the wrong thing or if I didn't do it the right way, then I was going to get in trouble. I think many people feel that, especially, you know, young coming into certain roles. But when I started to give myself the freedom and I had this is I think we have to do this. I want to start to give myself the freedom to fail, to mess up, to do it in maybe a... non-traditional or non-conventional approach or maybe a way that others wouldn't do it, but this was my way. When I really started to lean into that, that's when things started to happen, right? Because then I'm in alignment. When I'm in alignment, I'm radiating at a different frequency and I'm creating more opportunities for myself because I'm in a better energy that's going to attract what's best and better outcomes. I think that we do, you know, I think in conventional companies, sales is done, like, all wrong. You see it all the time with, like, the very, like, you know, all the emails and spams you get. It's like, analyze it first. And then you do this. And then you do that. And it's all junk. Yeah. It's so interesting. I'm sure. I love it. I think it speaks volumes of where we're at today when you start seeing all these layoffs and this rush to productivity. We've gotten it so wrong. You're watching a system collapse because it's afraid of the change that needs to happen in order for it to become successful on so many levels. I feel like we are moving away, especially in media and sales, we're moving away from manipulation into meaning. You just explaining this mentorship that you have with this gentleman, like it's such a beautiful thing to see for many reasons, not only moving from manipulation to meaning, but also it's incredible to get to see someone trying to help a younger version of themselves get to where you are faster. Like that's such an important part of it too, on so many levels. Yeah, it is. And I am grateful for the opportunity to be able to, to offer like, all for that. And that's ultimately how I learn. Like I invest from, I would network all the time. I would just reach out to people that I met or people on LinkedIn and just say, hey, can we have a quick chat? And I learned better I think sitting down and having conversations from people than any other book I ever read because I had the opportunity to learn from their experiences and um to just see how it would touch them or change them or impact them and you know be able to get these really valuable lessons that they were willing to share with me um you know it's like twenty thirty fifty forty fifty years sixty years of life lessons that people are willing to to share and offer to you is like, it's an honor to be able to receive that. So I always valued those networking discussions and like even networking with someone younger than me or same age, you know, everyone had something to offer. And I always hope to be able to give something back to them too, from whatever, you know, I was able to offer. But yeah. And I think it's important too, because we have young people that are coming into this, into the workforce. And yeah, to your point around like manipulation, like how are we running these companies? How are employees running their own roles? I know we've talked about this, I think on a few other podcasts around like being the CEO of your own position or CEO of your own role. And when we're teaching employees values to lead by and to live by, but to allow them the ability to be creative and to try new things, I think that's where your company can transform because this individual or the employees have, I think, the belief is in them and the trust is in them. That as long as they're operating within the values of the company, that they have the ability to, to try new things or to come up with different ways and like, versus like, oh, the CEO knows best or the leaders and the executives know best because they're older and they've been doing this longer. You know, sometimes like young people, they have like really great ideas and we need to mesh and merge all this. Like the whole hierarchy system, I just think is just like, it's not beneficial. Like there's no hierarchy. We're all in a community and a company is a community like an employer union it's a community it should be looked at as a community everyone has roles and everyone needs to be honored in um their ability to shine in that unique role and like truly own it to the best of their possibility best of their ability and to show up in that fullness like that's where value should be measured is how do you show up in your fullness in this role and responsibility that you carry because without you we we can't move forward like you are such an integral part and for every every of the job or companies is that that has that level of importance in my view I love that it reminds me of a there's a really cool story about the sixties sixties moon landings when I guess warner von braun and some top brass were walking through like the halls of nasa like at three in the morning one time and they seen this guy that was like a janitor was there and they're like what are you doing here? It's like three in the morning. He goes, I'm putting a man on the moon, sir. You know, but it just reflects like, look, we're in this together. And they're like, you're right, you are. Come on, you know. But it just reflects this idea of community that seems to be burgeoning again. It's like finally the mycelium is coming together and we're seeing this fruit of community that's so necessary and so beautiful and just beautiful. rising to the surface as it should be. And Jessica, always, this is such, I always love talking to you. I love the way you handle questions. Like when I threw the shame question at you, it was a beautiful answer. It was a tough one, but that's the initiation. And that's what we're here. It's the voyage of initiation. And as we're landing the plane here, where can people find you? What do you got coming up and what are you excited about? Uh, sure. Yeah. So you can find me, my, uh, website is jessicatheyoungian.coach. Um, you can find me on LinkedIn, please connect, uh, on Instagram underscore Jessica Tracy underscore, please connect there as well. Um, and then Enthea is, um, we're doing some really cool work with, um, with insurance for psychedelic medicine. So please, uh, connect and find us over there. I, my partner and I do have a retreat coming up as well, um, in July in Colorado. So more to come, but feel free to reach out about that. Um, doing an exciting, um, actually in a week and a half a week now be leading a shadow work, um, workshop incorporating the, um, the drum, incorporating the gong as well. So that'll be fun to experience. But I think for anyone that's interested in kind of incorporating any type of Jungian psychology, Jungian modalities, shadow work archetype into their corporation, into their own personal coaching or leadership role, definitely feel free to reach out. But I'm always happy just to have conversations and talk about any of this. Or if you're curious about psychedelics, I'm kind of an open book, open door. I love it. Ladies and gentlemen, go down to the show notes, reach out to Jessica. If any of this hit home for you, reach out. She's got a free consultation down there where you can hit the Hit the link and talk to her yourself. I always enjoy these conversations. Hang on briefly afterwards, Jessica. But to everybody within the sound of my voice and everyone who participated today, thank you so much. Have a beautiful day.