Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome back to the True Life Podcast. I hope everybody is having a beautiful day. I hope the sun is shining, the birds are singing, the wind is at your back. I have with me today Reverend Dr. Jessica Rochester. She's the Mahajuna and president of the Sioux de Montreal, the Santo Daime Church. She founded in nineteen ninety seven in Montreal, Canada. She's a transpersonal counselor. She trained in the work of Dr. Robert Roberto Asagioli and trained with Dr. Stanislav Grof. She worked with Health Canada from two thousand until twenty seventeen to achieve a section fifty six exemption to import and serve the Santo Daime sacrament. She is also the author of two incredible books, a series called Ayahuasca Awakenings. Their guidebooks are incredibly fantastic. And I'm so thankful to have you here today, Reverend Dr. Jessica. How are you? Well, thank you for asking. I am very well on many, many levels, you know. I do my best to live in the reality of focusing on that, which is good and positive and having gratitude for it. And then managing the rest as best as possible. It's so easy to, you know, fall down that whirlpool and the tunnel of the sad story and difficulties and complaining, then that can become a habit, right? Yeah, without a doubt. It's interesting because we were just speaking about the difference between being ready and being aware. Maybe you can help flesh that out a little bit. I thought that was really intriguing and I would like to have the audience listen to that a little bit. Okay, I think it was being ready and being prepared. Yes, thank you. So you were asking me because a few people who know me know that I'm slated up for full hip replacement surgeries. And so people... who hear about it or know about it, just asking how you're doing, how do you feel? I'm now seventy five years old facing a big surgery. You know, I'm certainly not alone. There's lots of people who are facing that and even more difficult challenges, you know. And so what I've said is is talking about the difference between being ready and being prepared. You know, we often don't feel ready for what life brings us. Ready kind of. indicates kind of one, two, three, jump, okay? So, right? Yes, let it out. It's like one, two, three, and jump, okay? Are you ready to do this? And so many things in life we don't really feel ready to do. There's something inside of us that says I don't want that or that's scary or that's difficult or what have you. And what we do then is we prepare. And the more prepared we are, then the more ready we become. when it's approaching, when it's happening. So we can go into any situation feeling prepared. In other words, we have done everything that we can that's within our sphere of possibility to prepare ourselves. So if we're in high school and we're writing exams, it's exam time. I have a teenage granddaughter. I've got lovely young man teenager next door who comes and helps me do things when I need I need a strong bear of arms right they're all on exams right now you prepare you want to learn how to scuba dive you have to do you get ready to dive by being prepared and this is the same in life do we get up each morning are we do we prepare for our day do we have some kind of getting up routine. For most people, it's not very conscious. It's just sort of doing the same thing. Somebody's not ready to be a medal. There you go. Perfect example. Thank you. And at the same time, how do we balance that? We prepare. We do what we know is appropriate and what is meaningful. and what is healthy. And if we're not sure we get professional advice or we, well, we used to go to the library. Now we consult with Google, right? And we do what we can. So we are prepared the same way we would prepare for an exam at school. We study, we read the books, we read the papers, we ask the questions. Yeah. And so, but ready. Yeah, sometimes we don't feel ready for something. And then how do we manage in that moment? Yeah. Did I answer your question? Without a doubt. Yeah. And for that dear lady who asked the question, I think it's changing our perspective on our life that is helpful. Yeah. It's great. you know, I mean, if we look at the, you know, obviously we've wandered way off topic today. Is that okay? We're supposed to be talking about this. We'll get to it. Those of you who are interested in the non-ordinary states of consciousness, because, you know, that's the field that I work in. And specifically, you know, in the South of Danube, the Ayahuasca that have been working in non-ordinary states of consciousness for coming up to years now. Now, The one thing that I find particularly fascinating is the research and the work is done on life between lives. And there's only a few people who've been doing research in that area. And again, it's really subjective research. You know, all you can do is gather stories and put people through regressions and make notes on it. So there's been American psychologists, there's Dr. Joel Whitten, the Toronto psychiatrist who's worked in this field and written about it. And Are we ready to return to planet Earth? And here in the research, this is what I found particularly interesting. A lot of souls were saying, no, no, no, no, not ready. And whatever their higher self or guiding spirit says, oh, too bad. And you go back into the cosmic cooker. And so can we prepare? So some of us may have entered into this lifetime feeling, am I ready to do this again? Am I ready to go through this whole experience of being human and living? And then we're born, and we're born into a family or into a situation or into a geographical location, and then things just clip along from then. But what we notice if we are mindful and if we have even just a little bit of help teaching us some good things, giving us some good teachings that we can put in our kind of knapsack that we carry through life, you know, about being aware, about being wise, about being careful, about learning about things, about caring for ourselves and treating ourselves with respect, about taking responsibility for ourselves. If we have something, a teacher, a guidance counselor, a coach of our soccer team or our chess team or whatever it is, if we have somebody in the family, an uncle, an aunt, a grandparent, who's quietly offering us these teachings, then they go in. And we become more and more prepared to go through life because I love what John Lennon said. I think it was John Lennon. He said, life comes at us point blank. It's like that. But if we're in our routine of self-care and self-respect and self-responsibility and self-love and self-awareness, if that's the routine that we're in on a daily basis, then whatever comes, we're the most prepared that we can be. Did you ever meet anybody who didn't have challenges? Never. I've never. I'm suddenly fine now. I I've never met one person, even young, who hasn't had challenges. At school, at home, on the street, in society, with religion, what have you. It's just the challenge of being human, of figuring out who am I this time around. Yeah, I think that that brings us to equality. Maybe that's the one thing that makes us equal on some level, is the ability to have these tragedies and these challenges. That's equality. Darling George. Idealistic and hopeful George. I know, I know. There is no equality. What about challenges though? Aren't we all equal in that we all have life challenges that weight on us, like the weight of the world on our shoulders? That's karma. That has nothing to do with equality. So we're going to talk about equality today. And what it is and what it isn't and how we come to terms with the lack of it in our lives, how we come to terms with it in the lack in our culture or society, what do we do about that? Because for us to sit here and think that we have some nice little formula for equality is like such a cosmic joke that, you know, no one would take anything seriously that we say from here forward. So we just have to acknowledge that equality is an extremely complex complex if we look at the world this idea of equality is such a deep and complex experience situation possibility how could it possibly be achieved you know could it be a goal well sure but what what is possible, okay? Because why isn't equality possible? Because of opportunities, differences, and circumstances. What might be equal and fair in the Sudan may not be equal and fair in Texas, okay? I mean, everything is just so different. As you go around the world, the situation and the geography and the culture and the languages and the social stratas and the belief systems. And how do we put that in there? So let's look at what is possible. Okay. What is possible? What's possible is fairness and equal opportunity. Fairness. Fairness and equal opportunity. So no matter what country you're in, it may look a little bit different from country to country to country depending on all of those things I've just mentioned. But fairness is possible. Let's use Gandhi. Okay. This man walked in. Took him years. Village to village to village. And at every village he sat down and he asked the wealthy who owned lots of land, please, could you give a small quarter of your land to the local farmers so that they could grow their own fruit? This was a movement towards fairness. It certainly wasn't equality. There's the rich, there's the poor. Then there's what we call the middle class, which seems to be holding everything up all the time. Right? Yeah. So it wasn't equality. It wasn't the rich people giving half of what they've got. No, that's not going to be happening. But what it was was the movement towards fairness. You have a lot, can you share? Can you share with other humans? Can you share with nature? I personally think that all of these huge conglomerate farms that are owned by, I don't know, Monsanto or whoever they're owned by, okay, that they should be obliged to every acre or every five acres, there should be a space that is dedicated to the local wildlife. A space that allows the birds and their migration to get some berries or food or grains. A space where the butterflies can rest and do what they need to do. There should be corridors through all of these huge massive groups. And we're growing corn to put in our cars. Okay, come on. When we talk about the quality, In fairness, we cannot just be talking about humans all the time. Yes? No? Do you agree? Yeah, without a doubt. I think that that is sort of a... We've somehow, for probably lots of reasons, found ourselves with a very narrow and short-sighted view that we just means humans. But we should be broadening that vision to us as part of the planet. So when we say we, we should be talking about all of us. We don't come into it, maybe come out of it. We're talking about creation. I love it. Okay. And so equality is not going to happen. We've put that on the shelf as maybe something to work towards if we can. Okay. Do what we can in our individual lives to work towards it. But in the meantime, we can... support, fairness, and equal opportunity. We can do that in our educational system, in our healthcare system. We can do that by who we vote for. We can do that by what we speak up for and what we support. All of those things we can do. We can join the parent teacher committee at our local school to ensure that things that will provide fairness and opportunity to everybody and not just humans. We are very species-centric. And yet, we can't exist without nature. We cannot exist. It is not possible. Eliminate enough species, and we're done. Eliminate the bees? Well, there you go. The birds, the bats, the fish, everything. Everything is needed. Everything was in balance. You could remove all the humans, and guess what? Nature would flourish. Nature would be ecstatic, you know. All the coyotes and the pumas and the wolves would come back into town and say, hey, all those mean people that used to kill us and shoot us are gone, right? So we can't live without nature, but nature could just live fine and dandy without humans. So we have to ask ourselves, where's our humility? So I think that one of the first qualities that we need to develop if we're going to talk about equality, is humbleness. In our arrogance, we won't even think about equity, equality, fairness, equal opportunity, because we're too tied up in our arrogance. But humbleness, there's a quality that we can all consider. Let's be like Gandhi. Humble. Blessed. Yeah, I think that if I can share a quick story, I know I used to surf a lot when I was in Hawaii and nothing has ever humbled me like the ocean has. I remember being out in the water sometimes paddling out on a day that was probably too big for me. And it just kept getting bigger and bigger until I'm sitting out pretty far offshore on a board that's too small. And like these giant waves are rolling in like twelve feet. And I remember just my heart racing and like trying to scrape, scratch over one. And then I get over the top of this one and there's a bigger one behind it. And then I don't make it. And it just... boom right in the impact zone and you're held underwater until you can't breathe and you're grasping for air you catch one breath and you're right back down but nature is the ultimate teacher of humility and I I think that being alone in nature just being out there to really show you yes yes and nature's doing her best yeah to humble us you know and I mean if we can't get the message then there's something really wrong with us you know Yes. And in the end, it comes down to personal responsibility. What can we do? So let's bring it around back to equality. Talking about what's possible, fairness and equal opportunity. What does fairness look like? I think fairness looks a lot like equal opportunity. Yes. Yes. In the story of Gandhi, what he was trying to do was be fair. You have so much, could you share just a little bit? Just a little bit. We're not asking you to give fifty or even twenty or even ten. Just a little bit so that the people in the village could have a place to garden and grow their vegetables. And this level of fairness and equal opportunity is dependent on individuals, but it's also dependent on the government that we vote into power, you know? And if the majority of people are interested in fairness and fairness and equal opportunity looks like education and equal opportunity for good education, right? Health care. Equal opportunity. I live in Quebec. Here in Canada, we have Medicare. In Quebec, we have Medicare. Yes, there's some things you can pay privately for if you choose. If you don't want to be waiting a year for something. So you can do that. But basically, there's health care provided for everyone. So education, health care, equal rights. Equal rights to do things like vote and drive a car, as long as you pass the exam, of course. So these opportunities, and are they equal and fair? Or are there still social and cultural barriers? Yeah, I think on some level, I don't think we'll ever get past the cultural or those societal barriers. Yes, thank you. I agree with you. I just agree with you because we can look at thousands of years of the history of the human race and we can say, okay, let's peel about six thousand years. There were people then who were rich and there was people who were poor and begging by sitting by the temple or the you know, what have you with their bowl begging. Okay. And there was people wealthy with tons of gold and, and goats and sheep and cattle and wives and everything else. Okay. Then we keep going forward to today and we can look up there's billionaires. Okay. I can't even get my mind around a billionaire and a multi multi billionaire. I can't even get, how is it possible there's billionaires and then there's so many people don't have food or don't have healthcare. Okay, so we can agree there's nothing about equality here, and there's actually not too much about fairness. I'm sorry, but it doesn't look like it. And will that continue? Yes, probably. One of the great teachers, you know, all the great teachers said some things in common. It's called the perennial philosophy. And one of the things that Jesus said very clearly was the poor will always be amongst us. He had a good take on human nature. So where do we go with this? We're acknowledging that equality doesn't exist. We won't ever. We're saying we can support fairness. We can support equal opportunity. How do we do that as individuals? And then let's, in a moment, bring it into entheogens and psychedelics. How do we support this? We've said on an individual basis. Do what your heart feels, you know, practice a little humbleness every day. Say, okay, for the next five minutes I'm going to see what can I do that feels like I'm being humble here. What would come from that, you know? Would I share something that I have? Would I donate something, my time, my energy, my something that I have that I can offer to share? What? What would that look like? A very simple, practical way. Would I join a community garden and go every week and help gardeners so that it serves the community? Would I donate some of my time to help at a shelter, whether it's for people or animals or what have you? Would I join Clean Up the Mountain? We have something called Clean Up the Mountain every year because, yes, the dog walkers and the hikers all litter. I mean, it's hard to imagine that in twenty twenty five that people are still littering? Come on, George, how is that possible in twenty twenty five that people are still littering? I think it's I think it comes back to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You know, I think that some people find themselves in situations in life where they can barely take care of themselves. So how can they take care of the planet when they don't see themselves as as reverent or worthy? You know, what's the point of this? Let us throw something on the ground. Oh, that's so interesting. So you're seeing it on that end of the scale. Why bother? Because I have nothing and everything is hopeless. So you're seeing it on that end of the scale. That's so interesting because there's the polarity, right? On the other end of the scale is I'm so important to self-importance, right? I'm so important. I can do whatever I want. I can look out my window and toss something out the window. I still see people throwing lit cigarettes out the window. Okay. Because of the little forest fires, you know. I'm on the tenth floor in a very lovely condo building now. And since my husband's accident and then passing. And a complaint went around that somebody on an upper floor is dropping lit cigarette butts off the balcony. Really? Get you a little bucket full of sand and work them out with that. I mean, this is not hard. This is not. So at one end, there's self-importance. And at the other end, there's the flip side of that, which is what? Self-unimportance? Yeah. What are we calling the other side of that? Maybe self-deception. There's a better word for it. I can't think of it. Yeah. Well, self-deception is at both ends. Yeah. Self-deception. I'm more important than other people. That's self-deception too. True. Self-importance and low self-esteem. Yeah, I like that. So we'll leave it at that. So equality. What else is there that's in the way of equality? There are individual differences. You know, is the ability, you know, if we look at, say, careers, we're going to see that some careers are highly exalted. Right. They are put on pillars and podiums of exaltation okay if you're a this and have a that that means wow so whether you're a famous actor or a rap artist or you know something a gift of song or creativity or what have you that was given to you that you may have worked very hard with indeed but somebody else doesn't have that and instead of being humble because you've been given this and using it for good Okay? So there's differences, individual differences amongst all of us. And some people have talents and strengths for certain things and other people don't. But what's that about? We each find our own strength. We each find our own gift, our own ability. And that our society and culture needs some, you know, equality because this is so important. What you look like, what you sing, what you wear, what you drive, et cetera, is so important. And those other things are not so important. And so that's in the way of equality. And then we have the differences that happen in our ability to contribute to society by our own individuality. You know, you may have somebody who is absolutely hands down the best kindergarten teacher on the planet. That teacher will never be as well known as some Hollywood star or some pop artist. And yet that teacher may be educating generations, generations of young people into their school experience in a way that is giving them a wonderful gift in life. But unequal to so many other things that are glossy and fancy and popular. The billionaire's glove. And yet, what's more important? Really? I'd rather have the kindergarten teacher. So you can have people who are devoting their life to things that completely have noticed other than in some small area. But It lacks the equality of popularity and what else should we call it? Fancy dancing. Or status, maybe? Status, yeah. It just doesn't have the same status. Well, what does that say about us as a culture and a society? Now, so fairness, equal opportunity, and here comes, save the most important for the last. I don't know if it's the most important, but it needs to be perhaps. equal rights. So fairness, equal opportunity, and equal rights. And so, and here's where in today's age, I think that we're in the process of finding that little zone of what is a right and what's a privilege, what's a right and what's a want. a right to education, a right to, you know, the basic, Canada has a charter of rights and freedoms, you know, which I believe most countries have, and I think they're different country by country, you know. So a right to education, a freedom of speech, a freedom to practice the religion of your choice, and again, within certain things, you know, you're not allowed to sacrifice things on an altar, for example, in Canada. And there's certain other things that may, you know, you're not allowed to marry off your thirteen-year-old to an old rich guy. You know, that may work somewhere else. It's not going to work in Canada, even if your religion says you can't. It's not going to work. Okay? So there's a place where individual rights meets collective healthy collective rights. And do you find that these days those things are being navigated, negotiated, questioned as to what is right? I do. I think the transformation that we're seeing, maybe it's, I'm not sure if it's a remembering or forgetting. know maybe we're remembering that we all have a voice and that we can redefine what's culturally acceptable or maybe we're forgetting why some of these things were put in place you mean like rights and charters and well just navigating navigating the like yeah like like some rights and some charters like I if you if you broaden it out to maybe like a world status. I think some people in the US may not thoroughly understand why we have a treaty with a country in, say, Africa about the land rights there. You know, like how many people here are affected by that? while we want nature and we want the rights of other countries to be in the best interest of all of us, maybe we don't thoroughly understand why we have those rights or what are we doing trying to enforce our rights on other people? Does that kind of make sense? Well, I'll tell you what I think I'm hearing. Okay. What I think I'm hearing is a question that you're asking or you're hearing people ask is, The rights that are enshrined in one nation's society. I'll use Canada because that's my country, so I probably know more about it than I might about some country in Africa. But the rights that are enshrined within the Canadian's Charter of Rights and Freedoms. And you're asking the question, Why is that being taken and being trying to support what's happening in other countries? Should we allow other countries to just do their own thing and be autonomous? What's that story about? Well, I think what I can tell you historically has been that it's usually the people in those countries that are asking for help to obtain what they believe are the rights that all humans should have. And my understanding of, let's say, the United Nations and other kind of large country-to-country, the G-sevens, and, you know, I'll use the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth countries. There's, what, I don't know, thirty, forty countries in the Commonwealth, which is a loose collection of countries, some who asked to join, that only have the briefest, if smallest, of connections with, you know, United Kingdom or England in the past. but who really believe in those principles. And so other countries that do not have the same level of rights or freedoms may ask those countries, please help us. So whether it's a small government that's asking for help, whether it is nonprofit organizations within the country that are asking for help, because that's really common. is it is often the nonprofit organizations, the churches, the religious groups who are saying, please help us. We need more training so that we can manage the health of our people. We need more education. Can you send people to help us? Canadians are by practice known as peacekeepers. Okay. So are, we do not have a huge standing army, you know, if a country decided to come over the Arctic and invade us, we'd be hard pressed. We'd be calling on our allies and friends to come and help, you know, bring your war toys. We're going to need them because basically we're a huge country geographically, but a smaller population. We're one tenth, less than one tenth, the population of the United States with almost the same square foot, if not, you know, more. And, and so we, And the focus in our country has been on peacekeeping and diplomacy. That's how Canadians are wired. And so when we're asked by other countries, please help, we're sending trained personnel to help train the local people. We're not just doing boots on the ground with our guns and we're going to take over your war and et cetera, et cetera. We're saying you've asked us for help. We're going to help, and here's how we can help. We can send medical personnel. We can send medical supplies. We can help with food. We can help train people to manage the situation, to do search and rescue, to do preventative work. And so it's often because you're asking the question, why are we interfering in other countries? I think what's got mixed up is the times in the past where some countries, and this is certainly not the United States, It's not alone in this category. Many countries, currently there are countries, okay, who just doodle off into another country and decide, I want what they have. Okay? And that other country might turn and appeal to other countries for help. Okay? That's very different when a country asks for help versus when a country just decides to go in and take what it wants. And so, What do we do when people, nonprofits, organizations, legitimate governments ask for help? We say, carry on, do your thing. Meanwhile, I'm going to go out, buy my new car, book my reservation at a fancy restaurant, saw a cute little diamond ring I think I'm going to pick up. Carry on. Where is the balance? What would Buddha say? What would Jesus say? We already know what they said. Feed the hungry. Shelter the ill. Support the poor. All those teachings are already there for us. But in today's age, how do we do that in a way that's effective and that's, I'm going to use a funny word, but I hope you understand it, clean. Just clean. How do we do that? How do we support people in situations who genuinely want to experience the same kinds of rights and freedoms that we have in certain countries around the world, not all of them? How do we support fairness and equal opportunity without interfering in other countries, without obligating people in our country to do things that they may not want to do? Got any answers on that one? This is a hard, complex situation. It's hard. It is. And I think that that's why you see so much I don't think anybody has a real answer to that. I mean, you could say to try to become the best version of yourself so that you can have a better community so that you can have a better city and you could start at the individual level, but that doesn't do anybody who's, who's, if someone's a million miles away in another country, like that doesn't really help them immediately or even in the near or even longterm, not for a while. And, and yet, Just karma. Are we paying forward? Are we paying back? You know, it's so easy to, how do we find balance between the, I need to live my life of gratitude. You know, I teach people who've gone through difficult things and they've lost all sense of that there's still goodness in their life. Yeah. You know, it's easy to do. Some huge challenge comes along and it's so difficult. whether it's a health challenge, a relationship, the loss of a loved one, whatever, okay? Loss of a job, you know, a career blows up in your face. For a while, you're going to just be out at sea with that, right? But then how do you bring it back to focusing on getting yourself friendly in your life and having gratitude for the good things that you've got? And then... Where does that take you to? Because we can't just be in our little bubble like all is well in my world. Thank you very much. What? And we each have different callings on this. Me, I served, I talked about consciousness. That's my calling, you know? But how about what if in this lifetime helping somebody that I don't know in a country that I don't know is actually paying back something that they did for me in many other lifetimes? See, this is what people don't even think about karma, is how do I know I'm not paying forward? So in three lifetimes from now, the people I've helped are going to help me. Is there a way of, you know, there's this wonderful story. I cannot attribute it to any particular tribe because it's a long time ago that I read or heard this story. So I apologize if I'm not attributing correctly. But it's an Indigenous story about when you die, you have to cross. In your dying process, you're crossing across a log bridge. And as you go across, all the creatures, not people, all the creatures that you've been kind to, that you've been respectful to, are going to help you go across the bridge. And all the creatures that you've disrespected are going to be trying to push you off. So it's a good attitude. It's a great story. And so where's the karma in this? You know, I'm back to Buddha and Jesus and everything. You know, where's the karma in this? Yes, I a hundred percent agree with you. Focus on your life, on being well, on being the light that shines in your corner of the world, bloom where you're planted, all that good stuff. Yes, yes, and yes. Okay. And at the same time, be open to if spirit shows you something, some need, If spirit shows you some need that you feel you can contribute to. If spirit shows you. So it doesn't matter if it's, again, the local community garden or the cat shelter. It could be something very local where you give your time and energy. Equally, you could find yourself signing up to help Doctors Without Borders. And you land somewhere in the Sudan or the Gaza Strip. Even if you're not a doctor or a nurse, you're helping hand out food and keeping the stock supplied and the administrative aspect of it. And so we stay open to what our higher self and what spirit is helping us to see. And that's where we can trust that, again, now we're talking about a karmic equality somehow, a karmic fairness that is not interfering in other people's lives. that is not telling other countries what they have to do or should be doing or putting some puppet figurehead in a government that's going to do what we want them to do. That's really interfering. But if the people ask, please help. If the non-profits, if the churches, if the temples, if they're saying, could you please help? Then what do we find in our hearts to do? And how are we supporting equality? Does this make sense? Yeah, I think it's brilliant. A good question I like to ask, and it has been helpful for me and maybe it'll be helpful for others, is what are you willing to do for someone that can never pay you back? How much time are you willing to do? You're stuck in this lifetime. How do you know you're not? You see, that's my question. Okay, okay. I got asked very recently in the last six months by a number of people, why are you doing this? And it was something that I was putting some time and energy towards that I truly believed was the right thing to do. It was so clear. It was so clear. When I focused on doing this thing, everything on my channel was open and sparkling and happy. And it's like the beings and the astral were going, yes, yes. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I do. I thought about, oh, why should I put my time and energy to that? It was like, I'm not paying attention. I don't know how many people know what I'm talking about with that open channel. And it was so clear. And to this day, I cannot tell you if I'm paying forward or paying back. I have absolutely no idea. All I know is that was the right thing to do. I did it. I did it with as much clarity, simplicity, humility as I possibly could, respect. And then it's done. Now, paying forward? paying back not even in this lifetime it's okay with me it's okay with me it's really okay with me where did you go you got a little question mark over your forehead I was just contemplating the same thing in my life and how do you get for me it's difficult to to walk that bridge of of never in this lifetime. Like I see it and I can, I tell myself that, you know, this is, this is temporary and then I'll be back here and that maybe I signed up for all of this. And these are all brilliant frames for me to help walk my path, but I lose it sometimes. Like, you know, looking for the external validation sometimes or the, the things to show up or, you know, it's, it's, it's difficult to keep the frame of never in this lifetime. Where's my reward? Yeah, where's my reward at? Come on, how hard I've been working. Where is it at? I deserve this. Come on. I've been hoping. Yeah, we're so attached to that. I know. We're so attached to that. And maybe it won't be now, and maybe it won't be. It's true. I think we have to learn from farmers. I think that the people who live close to the land or The fishermen, they take their boats, they know the currents and the tides and the winds, and they know where the fish are. You know what? If you put me in a boat, I would have no idea where the fish are. Zero. Lose me in the woods, don't count on me to get you out. I love nature, and I love the ocean and the trees and everything, but I don't have those natural instincts that some people do. and that calling to be so close and in nature, right? And yet, if we have that wonderful ability to learn from those people who are close to the land, a farmer plants, a farmer may, if they're planting new apple trees, for example, A peach tree bears fruit for twenty-five years. An apple tree bears fruit for a hundred approximately, okay? Depending on climate and everything else, right? So they're planting a tree. Guess what? A one-year-old tree doesn't give you any fruit. You've got to wait until those trees grow. And you've got to prune them and care for them. And some of the things that you plant, you may not even see in your lifetime. the result of it. And yet, I mean, do you not bother planting because you don't get the immediate reward? You know, whether that story of Johnny Appleseed is true or not, it's a great story, right? Was there really a person who went around with all kinds of different apple seeds and passed them out and shared them, gave them to farmers and spread them in the ground and everything. I hope it's true because it's a fabulous story and I'd like to think that more people do things like that. But you know what? That man did not live to see all those trees. He had no idea if the seeds he gave away ever got planted. It did not stop him from doing it. There is a visit in Brazil. I believe it's somewhere in South America. because there's been so much deforestation, there is a group, they're actually, it's a group of women, it's a co-op, and what they do is they go through the forests when the trees are putting all their seeds out, and they collect all the seeds, all the different seeds from the trees, and then they mix them all up together. I saw this in a beautiful documentary with David Attenborough. And then, They go where it's been deforested and they spread all seeds from all these different trees in the hopes that some of them are going to take root and some of them are going to rot. And I think if we have that philosophy in life, you know, I mean, again, it's a great teacher, Jesus, he said, cast your seeds. Some are going to go on stony ground. They're not going to take root. Some will go on fertile ground. They will grow. And so what is he trying to teach us? Is you do that. You put your seeds out, and you don't know where they're going to land. And you don't know if they will grow. But you've done your part by putting the seeds out there. Now, isn't that a great philosophy to have when it comes to things like equality? And fairness and equal opportunity. And not only thinking what's in it for me. It's so easy to go there. We're so species centric. What's in it for me? What's in it for my species? What's in it for my family? What's in it for me? Why should I do this? Why should I volunteer at the cat shelter? I don't know. Why should you? You're going to have a whole bunch of cats helping you when you cross that long bridge. That's what's going to happen. Or you can just do it for the joy of giving your time and energy to something that you hope will create a good and or better world. Yeah. I think all of these acts on some level, at least for me, when I'm doing something like that, it helps me be aware that I'm part of something bigger than I can imagine. And that feeling alone is enough to carry me through some dark times just to know when you go out and you do these things because it's the right thing to do, or you're doing something, whether it's volunteering, maybe the boys and girls club, or you do a beach cleanup or something like that. Like, In those times, remembering those times, they often help carry you through some of the darker times. It's actually one of the best things to do when you're in a dark time. It really is, is to try and give joy or give comfort. This is why on some level grief support groups work so well It's because they're helping each other go through the grief, go through the loss, go through the fear. And so when we see, oh, okay, we can help each other, and then we broaden that. Okay, it's not just me and my family and my culture and my society and my nation. I can lend a hand here. I can offer this there. I can donate that here. I can vote for that. I can march for this. I can speak to my Member of Parliament about that. I can sign a petition. I can share the petition to be signed to save the beautiful waterfront of Nuns Island that is the resting and nesting place for thousands of water birds, okay, instead of it being turned into complete condo land. And so we can do little local things that can improve the life of the creatures around, of nature, not just other people. We're so focused on ourselves. It's true. Bringing equality into not just us, the species human, but equality into, does the wildlife have equality? I say, nope, nope, nope. You had some questions. I did. I have some questions. I do. Okay, here we go. The first question comes to us from Desiree and she says, is equality something we fight for or remember? Oh, what a wonderful question. Thank you. I would say it is both. if we have to fight for it, it's because other people forgot. And unfortunately, sadly, even in our advanced first world countries, there still is not equality in equal access to, or equal opportunity to, or equal pay for, or there's still not full equality. And so we need to focus it. So yes, it's something you ask for. It's something that sometimes we have to fight for. I mean, Quebec was the last province in Canada to grant women the right to vote. That was only in like, like, in like, people don't believe it when it's like, what? Yeah, something like that. And I mean, I'm like, you know, The last province in Canada, women couldn't vote. I mean, we look back now and say, what? Women couldn't vote? Yeah, women couldn't vote. I tell my granddaughters these things. They're horrified. What do you mean women couldn't drive a car and women couldn't vote? You know, women couldn't publish their own. Women couldn't go to university. Women couldn't be doctors or lawyers. Look how hard so many women fought and how many people have fought. You know, we can look cross-culturally. The fight, the battle is still on. And so it's a question of, yes, thank you for asking that. The question is, yes, people have forgotten that we are one. People allow dogmas and religions and cultures and society structures to get in the way of we are one. Hopefully I answered your question. Yeah. Thank you, Desiree, for bringing here with us today. This one comes to us from Betsy. She says, who protects the sacred from becoming elite? Oh, too late. Sorry. Who asked that question? Sorry. I'm going to totally disappoint you this afternoon. I think I've got a little bit of seasonal allergies going on. Yeah. I'm so sorry. That's already happened. The sacred has become elite, but let's be honest. It always was. Yeah. You know, Jesus got angry. I don't know Jesus a lot today. Often it's usually Buddha or somebody else. But anyway, think of the story of him going to the synagogue, the temple, they called it then. It wasn't called synagogue. It was called the temple and getting so angry at the money changers and getting angry and having really quite a tantrum. Okay. And actually, today would have been probably marched down to the local jail for public violence, right? He was so angry, he overturned their tables. I don't think he hit anybody. I wasn't there, so I don't know. But he overturned their tables and knocked all the money and accused them of what they were doing. And he tells the story of the rich man who comes into the temple and lays his gold coins down on the altar and then affords older woman a widow coming in and she puts her three pennies and Jesus says whose gift is greater the greater gift is the woman because it cost her more to give those three pennies than it did the rich man the gold so this the sacred so having said that the sacred is everywhere it's right here it's right now It's inside of you, the lady who asked the questions. Was it Betty? Betsy. It's inside you. The sacred is inside of you. It's around you. It's everywhere. Honor it. Open to it. Love it. Find a way that you can celebrate it in your life that feels right for you. Don't let anybody take it away from you. The problem is humans go, oh, this is sacred. And if you want access to it, you have to believe this and pray that or sing that or donate. Yeah. Okay? Because this is the sacred. And what happens is the sacred takes one look at it and goes, meh, wrong, and tiptoes out the back door. And all the sacredness is gone. And what's left is the formula, the shell, the... structure that's been created, the belief system, if you wish. But spirit has quietly gone out the back door. And so we re-find it inside of ourselves. All the great teachers teach us this. The secret is within. The kingdom of heaven is within. It's right here. It's right now. Everything is one. We are all one. And then you find a group of like-minded people with philosophies, principles, or beliefs that that you feel inside of you, you're comfortable with them. They're right for you. Don't listen to somebody who wants to impose things on you. And be very careful with those structures that tell you, well, you know, for another thousand dollars you get a secret mantra. So many gross things, you know. You know, another ten thousand dollars and you're in the next level of enlightenment. I'm sorry I'm not being very nice about these things but they're pyramid schemes yeah they're pyramid schemes for the sacred for enlightenment and yet all they are is traps for the naive the uninitiated the hopeful Yeah, it's interesting that we bring that up now. Am I being too strong today? No, I think you're right on point. I love it. I think we need more of it, to be honest with you. When I start seeing what's happening around in the world of psychedelics, especially today, there seems to be no shortage of new schools popping up or certification programs popping up. I recently spoke to one of my listeners reached out and said that they were thinking about becoming a guide and when they when they answered the call to this guide sort of a new school that was coming up she spoke with the gentleman and turned out the guy was uh he had just he was a used car salesman and he now has this new job as an onboarding guide for these schools and she was she said she was really like wait a minute what You're doing what? And he goes, oh, it's great. I'm making tons of money now and I can get you in a great program. And she said the whole pitch felt exactly like buying a car, like a hard sell. And she's like, wait a minute. This is not what I want to be part of. But I think that there's a lot of that going around right now. So I think you're right on point with it. Well, so yes. So selling the sacred. Selling access to the sacred. Making the sacred elite so that only certain people can have it. You know, uh, the way only certain people can have this car or that meal or this jewelry or that passionate worker or go on that yard or fly on that plane or, Hey, how much did it cost them to go up? And was it space X, a bunch of rock stars, whatever went up there out in space for routine minutes. What does it cost? A couple of million each or something. Okay. Okay, where do you go with that? There's nowhere to go. There will always be that there. There will always be the rich. There will always be the super rich. There will always be the poor. There will always be the very poor. And we just have to navigate that and see what feels right in our heart. Bringing it back to psychedelics and, excuse me, entheogens. Still recovering from laryngitis. Ayahuasca tourism, or psychedelic tourism, is just a reality. It was Marlena Dobkin DeVees, I think, who named it Ayahuasca tourism, what, fifteen, twenty years ago? Horrified, the anthropologist, horrified at how many people were jumping on the bandwagon, either side of the equation. Those who wanted to be a shaman and sell it, or serve it, and those who were eager to experience. It's how to navigate through this landscape of what's arising and what's appearing. I happen to be an advisor to two universities and guest lecturer to their programs on psychedelic studies. There's a graduate program now at University of Ottawa and Vancouver Island University, if people are interested. for the field work because these working in non-ordinary states of consciousness you do need field work the same way if you're going to be a dentist you're going to be anything you actually have to do the work you know it's just to read the book and write the papers um you actually have to have some experiences in these and so our center um in the last few years we've worked with all the various people that needed to be worked with in academia and otherwise and connected to develop a retreat for professionals, for graduate and doctoral level students in these studies and allied studies or professionals working in the field. We have here in Canada palliative care. There's certain exemptions and permits and licenses that exist for certain substances to be used in clinical and or in research. And then there's the religious rights, such as we have. And so if you want to compare how many digits difference there is between what we ask for the retreat that we do and what somewhere in, I won't name the country, was asking how many digits off. They're asking eight thousand. We asked just over eight hundred. All we're doing is covering the absolute basic costs, okay, because we're a nonprofit organization. We're a church, and we're deeply committed to education and supporting research and education and people working in the field in ways that are helpful, you know, to awaken consciousness and bring things forward. So when we're talking about equality, okay, what are we really talking about? What are we talking about? Is there equality in the psychedelic field? I don't think so. What would equality look like? What would it look like? I think equality would look like would look like This might be paradoxical, but like a better selection process. If the only filter is money, then that is not equality by any means. And if you have weak filters, I think you get weak leaders. Weak leaders lead people off of cliffs. So I think equality is having a better filtering process where you're looking for people that may have the right qualities to move forward in a certain arena. Is that too paradoxical? Equality and then putting up parameters? No, I think we have to go further back than that. Okay. Okay. Go further back to the academic and governmental situation. Okay. Which is what I've been working on for nearly educating my government first. Okay. And then working with various educational and academic institutions who are open to and interested in non-ordinary states of consciousness and how to prepare people to work better in those fields. Okay. And so for me, that's where it starts. It starts before you get your license. It's not just after your license, how you filter the people who come to you. It's like, what's your credentialing in Canada. If you want to, if you want to immigrate to Canada and you're a medical doctor, um, you just have to provide your medical qualifications. If you're coming to Quebec, you probably have to pass some language tests. There may be some exceptions for in now in medicine, because we were short doctors because People, what after eight makes sense again in French? Forget it, I'm going to Ontario or Saskatchewan, right? And so Quebec quickly realized, oh, we're going to have no doctors and nurses. We better broaden that a little bit, you know? But you can't just arrive in Canada and hang out a shingle saying that you're a dentist or a doctor or an accountant or a lawyer. You actually have to be credentialed. You have to have your degree. You have to have your certifications. You have to have your proof that you have been trained in, that you belong to the organization, the professional organization, that you're covered by a code of ethics. You have to prove all of that before you can just hang your shingle out. And yet, because non-ordinary states of consciousness, the psychedelic movement, the use of entheogens just went boom, and because there was nothing in place, you know, one of the comparisons I used with our government in a meeting a few years ago, which we were all laughing at, is I said, you know, remember when everything was horses and carriages and then cars got developed and at first everybody thought it's a fad, it won't last. Okay, well, huh? I said, but people quickly realized all of a sudden there's lots of cars on the road. You had to have traffic rules. Traffic rules had to be developed to be put into place to prevent accidents and to ensure safety. So the safety of the car itself. And look how that's come along with seatbelts and airbags and everything else. Stop signs and red lights and yield signs and everything. All the whole structure around people driving cars had to be developed because it didn't exist. So that's what's been happening. Governments and organizations have been playing catch up. And because they're governments and academic organizations and professional organizations, it has to work its way through department after department to make sure that everything is screened correctly. And so this is why I understand it takes a little time with government. That's why I was willing to be patient all of those years. Better to have an educated government give you a good sign-off saying, yes, we fully support you, and fight a little battle in a court somewhere, and then the government's still playing catch up with how to understand what's going on. So that's where it starts. It starts with governments being educated. Academic institutions that are training people have to be credentialed institutes. They have to understand. You know, a lot of these places that are popping up and training people, What actually are they teaching people? What belief systems are they using? What maps or cartography of the non-ordinary states are they using? What code of ethics? For me, this is so important. What code of ethics are they teaching people about how to work with people in non-ordinary states of consciousness? For those of you listening who might be interested, if you go to my website, you will find a Empties, Gents, and Psychedelics in Canada proposal for a new paradigm in which we cover all of these things. We offer a code of ethics for non-ordinary states of consciousness. And we were delighted at the reception that received, by the way. Groups in Australia asked if they could adopt it. Please, take it, take it, use it, you know. So it's trying to educate so that people understand have the most training and the most appropriate cartography to be able to work with people. And of course, into that comes that whole area of difficult passages and difficult experiences and encounters in the non-ordinary state that are troubling or scary or people don't have the framework for. And If you haven't trained on an understanding of how to hold that and how to support that, how do you help people? It's like if you only learn to swim in the shallow end of the pool, how are you going to help somebody in the deep end? Or in a riptide, for that matter. In a riptide. Okay, you don't want to be in a riptide. I've been in one once. Thank you. Thank you. No, thank you. Great teaching, by the way. The humility of nature. Pay attention which flag is flying before you go jump into the ocean. I walked right past the red flag. I can't believe I did that. It's easy to do though, especially in life. Like there's red flags all the time and we just walk right past them. Like red lights blinking at us and yellow lights and be careful and be careful. And we're going whistling along our way. Right. Dr. Jessica, do you think, so you trained under some legendary people and you saw what happened through like the last wave of psychedelics and theogens and plant teachers. Do you see the same things that are happening now? Some of them, yes. Okay, can you talk about that? Well, sure. Okay, so what happened in the sixties is you had brilliant people like Dr. Stan Grof working at Stanford University and in the hospital situation in palliative care, training his staff to work in the United States with excellent cartography, and doing three what they called LSD psychotherapy sessions. And then because people were taking not just LSD but combinations of things, and goodness only knows what some people were taking because it was just being made up wherever and what have you. And then thinking they could fly and walking out of fourth-story windows or something. And so everything got shut down. Everything just got shut down. That was a huge mistake. What should have been left open was good research, accountable research with good institutes and educational institutes and academic institutes. So research should have been left open. and accountable clinical practices should have been left open, but they didn't. The government just shut everything down and threw everything into one package. Now, Canada had given in the fifties, Deepin Baker, a conservative prime minister gave the native American peyote church with their sacrament peyote, a regulatory amendment. So if you look at the drug act, okay, the Controlled Substances Act in Canada, you can go to peyote and the salts of it, and you're going to see it's, you know, prohibited, except for, and there's your regulatory one, except for peyote in the use of the Native American church. Now, I'm hoping that over time, at some point, that the Santo Daini, and that would include, I guess, you know, the Fishtel, could have or recommend the same thing. a regulatory amendment instead of every four years renewing our exemption. But I understand that's what the government needs to do to keep things safe. So they've proceeded cautiously. We were very happy. We were granted our section fifty-six exemption. And through all the negotiating process that took years, we negotiated that it would be church by church. So that if there was a problem in one church that it didn't mean that everybody else lost their exemption yeah right and so I believe that the canadian government has gone about this in the most respectful and considered way and that's because again we were willing to be patient and just keep giving the science and being in meetings and giving more science and giving more evidence and assuring of our principles assuring of our practices and and our emergency measures and our follow-up and our visitor screening. And so then slowly the government from that was opening to research and then was opening to clinical use. So when they saw, okay, we can put our foot firmly down here, these things are working, we can now open it a little bit broader to that. Will, I can only speak for the Canadian government, will the Canadian government just fling the door open for anybody can do whatever they want? I don't think so. Would they, well, they certainly decriminalize, they did more than decriminalize cannabis because they realized that was the best way to go was just to legalize it. The same with alcohol and tobacco, give people warnings and can't drive under the influence. Sorry, we've got a little tap tap going on renovations. Um, And so I believe that that's the way the Canadian government will continue to go, which is cautiously and carefully and making sure before they open a door and permit something that they've really done due diligence. And you know what? I'm really okay with that. I'm really okay with that. I would rather they take their time and investigate any organization or clinic carefully before granting the use. And at least then the safety and the wellbeing of the people attending is going to be in a much better position than the other choice. So equal access. At this moment, I would say here in Canada, people have pretty equal access. If you're in palliative care and you want to ask for psilocybin, three psilocybin therapy experiences, then you can just simply ask your doctor and put it in. You don't have to pay tons of money for it or go a special route. And so the research that's being done, the access to certain things, it opens slowly. And hopefully it will become a better situation for those who so request. Is that a fair? For me, that's fairness. It may be slow, but it is fair because they're looking at the risks as much They need to be risk aversive. They need to be because they're accountable to the entire population of Canada. People forget this, that when you have a government, the government is supposed to be accountable to everyone, not just the people who voted the man. Right. People or something, but accountable to everyone, to everybody's well-being, to everybody's rights and freedoms. And governments need to be held accountable to that. Otherwise, you're in a dictatorship. Yeah, it's a great point. We have Jessie. She says, the flag isn't red, it's magenta. Me before doing some dumb shit. Jessie's so awesome. Thank you, Jessie, for being here. Yes, okay, that's great. And we all get it, and we all get it, you know? And it's all about learning to pay attention. You know, that's in my work. It's the four principles of self-care. The first one is self-awareness. And this definitely comes under self-awareness. Oh, there's that little flashing red light. You know, I need to pay attention here. And how easy it is to zoom right past it. It's so true. It's so true. Do you have more questions? Otherwise, we're going to have to. Yeah. Um, I got more questions, but I have, I have another one coming in and then I got some, we can talk more about some stuff later. Uh, the last question we got coming in is, uh, this one comes to us from Ranga and he says, can you be equal and still be wildly different? Oh yes. They're, they're, they're, they are, they're apples and oranges. Um, they, they are not. Um, Equality and differences. Equality means you can be different and have the same rights. That's what it means. That's what it should mean, okay? Because when I spoke about the challenges in equality is what we have to face is differences, okay? So differences in social status, differences in cultural existence, differences in religious beliefs, differences in, you know, name it. We should all have equality, okay? If you have, we can look at, you know, one of the most troubling things for me when I first read about it was that in, you know, nevermind women, you know, here's the perfect example. I'm saying, I'm saying, you know, women get the right. Women are different from men, but men were more equal than women. At different rights. You know, I'm not pointing a finger at you, George. Don't get all, you know, uncomfortable. Don't apologize for being a man. Okay? Just be a good man. Men shouldn't be apologizing for being male, by the way. That's a trend I really don't like. Just be a good man. Don't go apologizing. What other men have done or are doing, that's not you. Don't apologize for your gender identity group. You know? Speak good person. All is well, all is well. So yes, individual differences. We are all so unique. Everyone is different. Even identical twins are different. And so we are different, but we should have equal opportunities. There should be fairness. And there should be that opportunity to live under equal rights. Okay, so it's equal rights. It's not equality. Remember, equality doesn't exist. So there will always be differences with people, but we should all have the same rights. Freedom of speech, freedom to have our belief systems, as long as they don't infringe on other people. Mm-hmm. Look in the Old Testament. God said, go and do this. Okay, no, that's not working anymore, right? It does not work. Anyone who tries to drag that into today, that's not God talking. Did you have more questions? Um, it just, I couldn't, I had to start laughing because I, I like, I, the part that came up for me was that of the great George Orwell novel, we're all equal, but some are more equal than others. Like when the, well, you know, but see, that's the problem is we, we, we're, there's a vast difference between the true spiritual, And actual, you know, I harp on particle physics because it fascinates me what they teach and learn in particle physics. And, you know, it is identical to what the spiritual teaches. We're all one. We're all interconnected. The wave and the particle. Okay. And it's just fascinating. And so people confuse oneness with equality. Is the tree equal to the rhinoceros? Well, no, they're just hugely different. Do they have the same right to exist? Yes. Yeah. It's the rhinoceros and the falcon, but they're so different. Do they have the freedom to exist and the right to a certain level of safety and well-being, a right to have their habitat? and race their young and yes, yes and yes. That's where we should be looking at right. When we burn down and mow down all the rainforests, okay? Put more cattle to make more McDonald's hamburgers. Don't get me started. It's so much. Dr. Jessica, I love our conversation, and that's why they go so long, and it's so much fun. I've got to say goodbye for today. I know, I know. Cover all the questions, otherwise you have to make a note for next month. next month we'll make it we'll make some we'll get in more next month for sure so everybody in the chat for hanging out with us thank you so much for being here I really appreciate it to uh jesse and ranga and betsy and desiree and and every julie and uh jill robin thank you so much for being here we really appreciate it and that's all we got for today ladies and gentlemen please go down to the show notes check out rev dr jessica rochester.com check out our new books the ayahuasca awakening guidebooks and her new site and she's got a lot of stuff coming do you have anything coming up, Jessica, before Dr. Jessica, before we, before we leave, do you want to talk about? Our next retreat for professionals, you know, graduate and upward students in the field and professionals in the field is in October. If there's any professionals listening or graduate and doctorate level students listening and want more information by all means, contact me. And other than that, life is full, life is rich. Life is busy. Sending all good vibes to you. Sending all good vibrations to everyone listening, now and in the future. Ladies and gentlemen, have a beautiful day. We'll talk to you soon. Bye-bye.