ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the true life podcast everybody's having a beautiful day hope the sun is shining hope the birds are singing hope the wind is at your back got with me today an incredible guest friend of the show incredible artist the one and only joshua moyer he doesn't just make music he summons it from the concrete cracks of rebellion and the sacred chaos of altered states joshua moyer is that rare breed part street poet part sonic alchemist part underground prophet he built the full soundtrack to my psychedelic science art challenge played every instrument wrote every lyric and bled every note like a sermon on the run Guitar riffs like Black Alley Prayers, handpan rhythms that echo in the bones. This wasn't background music. It was ritual sound design for a new kind of revolution. Joshua Moyer, I'm so stoked you're here today. How are you? I'm good man your intros always make make me feel good dude I'm telling you they're always so they're always amazing I was just telling my brother-in-law's here in town I was just telling him I was like read read this guy is a as an artist man like read read this introduction and he was blown away yeah so uh yeah always happy to talk to you Yeah, man. Well, I'm stoked you're here. I know we got a man. There's a really big event coming up for those that don't know psychedelic science. Twenty twenty five going to be some of the most incredible people there speaking about psychedelics from the underground to above board, the politicians, the journalists. It's going to be amazing. And there's all these satellite events going on there. We've got psychedelic playhouse. Thank you, Carly and Christian and Caesar and Diego, Alex, everybody for chiming in there. Iboga saves going to be a beautiful event over there. And so, yeah, man, what are you most excited about going over to these events over here? this will be my first psychedelic conference ever okay right so it'll be my first time like meeting people like yourself and some other so many other people that like we keep up with and we follow what each other's doing you know um and it'll be my first time meeting everyone in person so that is probably aside from all the events and the cool speakers and all the like the wonderful educational tracks I think that's going to be like that's my biggest thing I'm looking forward to you know um like like you said your event and the psycho playhouse and then there's like the psychedelic networking club meetup that's part of the playhouse on tuesday there's a psychedelic psychedelic writers guild meeting like wednesday night as part of the playhouse so yeah I really think just seeing people in person and meeting people that I've only interfaced with on online and uh know just kind of deepening those relationships and um and just walking the floor and being part of the part of part of a psychedelic conference you know because I've done a lot of big conferences but they were all in automotive which is totally different you know um so it'll be cool it'll be cool and I've never been to denver so it should be an interesting uh time at this point I'm trying not to like book myself solid you know like every second that I'm in town like just non-stop so Trying to give myself a little breathing room. For those listening, too, everyone should go to the show notes and check out Joshua's music that he put out there. Man, you put out some incredible music. Are you going to be playing any gigs out there at Psychedelic Science? Um, I don't think it, I don't think so. Um, we, there were some preliminary talks about it, but I think it was too late in the planning process. So maybe next time around, but you know, that being said, uh, I wouldn't be surprised if I pack a couple of thumb drives in my backpack just in case, uh, something shows up, you know, um, I can't really like travel by my guitar and my hand pan or anything like that just yet. But, uh, Maybe next time around, we'll plan some bigger, some more purposeful events. I'm just here to take it all in, for sure. Yeah, it's true. I'm not giving up, though, man. I bet you we could go to a guitar shop and maybe get a guitar. One of my favorite videos of yours is you playing Jimi Hendrix out in the middle of the street, man. I couldn't think of a better place to do that than at Psychedelic Science right out front, man. that would be so sick yeah that was such a cool event that was new year's this that was many many years ago but it was new year's day first thing new year's day um for for a bike race like a fundraiser like a five k type thing you know and someone just said hey you know we want the hendrix version of the thing and it was it was bitter cold it was for january first whatever day it was um I wasn't hung over or anything but like I I mean I'm sure I don't think I've ever done a gig on that, like an early New Year's Day morning. So that was super fun, especially, you know, as a left handed guitar player. Right. Hendrix was like a big deal for me. You know, his well, all that classic rock stuff, that was kind of my foundation in life, really the first up until I was, what, junior high. ish started buying my own record. You know, when you start buying your own records, you're kind of at the mercy of like your parents' record collection. Totally. And like my dad had this wonderful step, like just this huge, incredible record collection. And so that was kind of my form. That was my like formative development. Hendrix and Cream and all that stuff like that. So, you know, someone asks you as a left-handed guitar player to play some Hendrix, hell yeah, you're into it for sure. Yeah. You know, and when I look at the whole collection or at least the collection you put on YouTube out there and the whole album that you made for this particular event, It's such a rare blend of like, you got handpans, you got lyrics, you're sampling McKenna, you're sampling Rick Doblin. Like I can't help, at least for me, and this is one of the things that really drew me to your music was like, this is the next wave of music and artistry coming out of the psychedelic revolution. Like I see it, man. This whole integration of like AI sort of imagery and like the hand pen and the synthesizers, like this is it right here, man. I'm so stoked to have met you through this art challenge, man. Like this is the real creative process through psychedelics happening in real time, man. What are your thoughts on that? I agree completely. Um, I agree completely because I'm sure a lot of other creative people can relate to this, but like when, when, uh, when I write something, like I don't feel that I have any, um, investment's not the right word but I feel like the idea is kind of dropped in my head like fully formed and then it's my job to kind of scr like transcribe it down yeah um and then I'll like just hear bits and pieces and put them together but I I think you're right I think none of us exist in a silo, right? As much as we want, to be like, or whatever, you know, whatever, it's not going to happen. Right. So, um, I think having the music integrated into the headspace integrated into the setting, it's, it's the whole Leary thing, the set and setting, you know? Yeah. Um, and, uh, And I think I mentioned to you, I just stopped playing live for a myriad of reasons. But it's just so interesting to me that I did that. And then right afterwards, you and I met. And I was kind of asking you about the creative thing. And those three songs just came out like, like crazy like that. And then there's so much other stuff that I've been, that has been kind of in the pipeline now, just so much material, you know, like whether it be the binaural beat stuff or the chakra tone stuff, or, you know, remastering some old tracks that I had. I've always liked, since I started working on music, putting quotes in tracks or whatever, quotes from movies and stuff like that. I have a remix of the theme from The Exorcist with some creepy quotes from the movie and stuff like that. I'm working on this track called California Sober because I'm California sober. I like this clip from Bob Marley talking about the differences between alcohol and marijuana. I just feel like sometimes finding a clip like that is a great starting process. And then the song just kind of comes out from there. Um, but yeah, I've, I've always kind of, I've always treated music as that kind of like next step up headspace where it just kind of drops, drops in. Um, and I think you're right. I think combining it with, with AI and, and with like the traditional acoustic sound therapy sessions, you know, the singing bowls and the drums and whatnot. I think there's something there of bringing it all together as a full spectrum experience. And I haven't really had a chance to test it out as of yet. but I'm hoping to this year. Cause I was, I was thinking about putting something together for the psychedelic design awards and I, I just didn't have time to do it. And it was still kind of like a zygote of an idea. And it was kind of, and it's, and it's come together since then, even since those couple, what was that a month ago, two months ago. Um, And it's just kind of a formulating idea and trying to figure out like when it's done and it's formulated and tested and people can see that I like that it works as well as I think it'll work this full integration like being kind of bathed in different frequencies and whatnot, I think could be really transformative psychedelics or not. So let's see, there might be something there and maybe there's not something there and it's fine. I'll just leave it alone. No. for me when I listen to a lot of the work you're doing and then I pan back and I take a look at the whole world of creative music what I'm seeing is like a whole new dimension to it and when you can put in like the different quotes from different movies or different quotes from different lectures like that I think you're really beginning to merge different modalities into a new language like music itself is its own language but I feel when we start mixing in these different or these different lines from different mediums, you're really adding another dimension to it on a whole nother level because people can relate to those quotes. And when they listen to the music, they'll see the movie. Or when they listen to the music and they hear the lecture from McKenna, they're like, oh my gosh, it resonates on a deeper level and it becomes more meaningful to me. What are your thoughts on that? I think so. And I think on an individual level, I think it resonates with people better. Yeah. And I think you're like, oh, shit, like this guy's mixing up this and that and, you know, all that stuff. But I think from a. I've always struggled. In the twenty some years that I've done music professionally, like people want to put you in a genre, right? Yeah. They want to say this is this kind of music or that kind of music. Well, I have I've always had like so many different influences. I've never really been able to like tack down that genre. that genre piece. And I kind of went away from putting out original stuff when I got really into the, you know, the cover band stuff, the tribute band stuff, I kind of put away the original stuff, because it wasn't really, you know, getting any attention whatsoever, whatsoever. And not that you do it for the attention. But you know, at some point, you're like, no one's really listening to that. So I'm going to move on to something else. But I think you're I think you're right I think it doesn't always have to be formulaic um sometimes you think like a song is going to go in one direction and totally recapitulates another you know um but then at the same time when you're working on music, that's like so, so much depth to it. Like when you're, when I'm talking about depth, I mean like the number of tracks that are happening at the same time and different instruments and different elements and stuff like that. I'm sure anyone who's listening or anyone who listens after, like, how do you know when you're done creating a piece, whether it be a painting or like a piece of music or a sculpture, that's something I really struggle with. Like, how do I know when it's done? don't you feel it? Like you know it's done. Like part of your heart knows it. But Rick Rubin has a great book out, his new book, and he talks about when a piece is done. And I think that one of the quotes that stays with me from that book is, when you finish a project or you're towards the end of it, if your final piece, be it a painting, be it a song, be it whatever you're creating, if you look at it and it has ten mistakes in it, it might be ready. But if you look, you know what I mean? If you look at it and it has like, like. Fifteen in there or something like that, then, you know, you're obsessing about it. Does that kind of make sense? You see where I'm going? Absolutely. And I like that book is amazing. It is. It really is. And and a couple of years ago, I read something about him and that he kind of looks at producing more of taking things away. Yeah. Instead of adding to it. And I think really we could all learn, learn a lesson from that. Yeah. You know, if you look, there's like a video clip of when he's producing that Red Hot Chili Peppers album, the Blood Sugar Sex Magic. Yeah. I think it was on Give It Away. He was working with Flea on a bass line and he was like telling him basically not to play as many notes. And it was perfect. Like when he took out some stuff he's playing and you're like, that's it. Like that fits. Yeah. And yeah, it's hard for me not to keep going back to something and keep going. And so part of that I think is my personality and, you know, you always want it to be better, I think, so. Yeah. That's the hard thing. And when I talk to other artists, like I always ask, I always ask them that, like, how do you know when you're done? And it's always a different answer, which I find fascinating, so. I think that that speaks to the beauty of the artist and the creative process like we all want it to match the vision that we have in our mind of what it is and it doesn't sound right like it's missing something or Man, if I could just put in a few more things over here Am I really getting this image to say what I want it to say? But us as the creator or the individual that's creating it sometimes we're we try to be so perfect And we get lost in it or you ever look at your piece and you hear it so many times that it no That it no longer has that same resonance of when you first started doing it You kind of get lost in your piece and there's something beautiful about that because you found yourself in the eternal now And that's what creation is here to do. But it is it is a fine line to walk man it's and it's I think it's it comes down to the individual like you find your own process you find your own way and when that resonates with other people maybe you start building momentum off of that and you start becoming familiar with the territory and the path and you just know it when it's done yeah I agree and I think a great majority of music and and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this I think a lot of stuff is Never as good as the first time you heard it. Right. Like you remember the first time you heard certain music or even certain genres. Yeah. And then on the flip side of that, there's other things that are so have such depth, whether it's like depth of meaning of lyrics or like the core progression or how it's produced or whatever, that every time you listen to it, you get a new perspective on it. You know, you, you figure you hear a different nuance of the recording or whatnot, but like, you'll never forget like the first time you heard Slipknot or something like that, or like, or fit or fish to be completely in the opposite direction, you know, but like, those are moments that you'll never forget and you'll never be able to get that back, you know? And there's something, there's something to, uh, there's something that was really nice in the pre-internet days of consuming music. You know, remember when you would go on a Tuesday, on a Tuesday and albums would come out on Tuesdays and you would go and buy the CD or buy the record or buy the tape or whatever. And like you take it home and you're late, you're sitting there with like the lyric sheet and the whole thing. You know, it was an experience. You're not just clicking through finding something. Of course, you know, you can find anything you want nowadays, but there was a real like ritual to it. Yeah, that I think we're kind of missing out on these days. It's a great point in it. I think we're returning to it. I had a really cool talk. A good friend of mine, Adam Lopez, he's got this sick new album out. He calls this whole genre future blues. He's got this song called Suicide Doors. It's so sick, man. If anybody's listening out there, everybody check out Adam Lopez, Suicide Doors. It'll blow your freaking minds. It's so good. But I had a long conversation with him and he's like a real... he does his own tours. He's his own guy. And he just plays small places. And I was asking him, I'm like, Adam, you were in Nashville, man. Like, I know, I know you have this style where you go out and you play these gigs that are, you know, they're, they're on farms and they're real organic and authentic. And I'm like, what is the difference in your opinion between like someone in Nashville and like, you know, some of these recording studios and what you're doing. And he just got this look of disgust on his face. He's like, yeah, me tell you about the recording studios in nashville you go in there you play like you play like two bars and then they cut you and then they just sample that so you're never really playing the whole song so many of these people that are listened to today that are quote unquote big stars and they don't even play music they play like two chords sample it record it lay down one track and then they're done they go in they play that and they're done he goes me He goes, look, man, I go to these different venues. I'm going to play the same song different every time. Not because I want to, but because depending on where I am, I might miss a chord. I might throw in two chords. I might play something different. He goes, but the beauty of music, George, is when you go see someone live, they're never going to play the same show twice. You might get the best Adam Lopez performance at the small local bar I do in Austin versus like a big platform I do on a stage somewhere else, man. He goes, that's what music is. You never know, man. It just depends on the environment. And I was like, that's so true. When it comes to music, we've been so conditioned to hear these samples and this weird sort of synthesized voice that might be one person laying one track down. But the magic is going and watching someone do something live play out their heart out for the first time every time. You know what I mean? It's always different. Like to me, I think we're missing that. We're returning to that on some level. Yeah, I agree there. Yeah. You know what? there's nothing better than seeing an artist that you love screw up on stage. That might sound weird, but like, like I love going to see fish. Right. And like, there's nothing better when Trey fumbles a lyric and he's laughing about it and they go on, they move on from it. But like, like this is a human being. This is great. You know? there's something about it that really endears you to that artist when you see see that happen because we're like you know to your point we're conditioned to like perfection and yeah very like formulaic strong strong uh structure you know um yeah we're just used to it our ears have gotten used to it it's kind of like our ears have gotten used to that kind of sanitized middle of the road super compressed uh audio quality yeah You know, you miss that. You miss that kind of vinyl dust sound. That's what I call it. I don't know what you'd actually call it. That's what I call it. But that like scratchy needle sound. Yeah. That's one of my favorite sounds in the whole wide world. Yeah. Yeah. It's so authentic. I got a couple of questions stacking up over here. So let me come to Anya. Anya from Oakland. She says, is music the language we spoke before words? Brilliant question, Anya. Thank you. What do you think, Joshua? yes I think so I think so um I think singing came before words for sure yeah you know um it's interesting that um I wish I knew the name of the book and I don't. It was an ethnomusicology book. This ethnomusicologist went to some tribe in southern Africa and they were trying to get her to participate in the ceremony and they were asking, trying to teach her the song. She said, why don't sing? And she said that the people had no concept of that. you because you do everyone sings, but we're kind of like, oh, I'm a singer. I'm not a singer, you know? So. Yeah, I think. Music has roots in the back, like the antediluvian parts of our reptile brain, like the way back, like beginning part of our brain, and I think. Even the like electronic music, I think if you stripped it away, it's very tribal. It's very kind of foundational tribal stuff. It's the same concept anyway, is what I'm trying to say. The rhythms and the ecstasy that you go through because of the rhythmic and the dancing and stuff like that. I think it speaks to a much older part of our brain than we think. Yeah. It's really well said. Can you remember the last time you heard a song that made you cry? Oh yeah. Okay. Let's hear about it. I'm a big cry baby. Like I'm a very emotional person. I'm a big cry baby type of person. Um, so, uh, that cat's in a cradle, man, that song destroys me. And I listened to it all the time, but like, I, it literally doubles me over crying. Um, know because I'm a dad you know you know like you know it really hits you in like a bad just like in a bad place you know um but then there's some songs that that you know make you cry too um In a different in a different way, you know, in a better way. I get emotional when I'm in like in a fish jam and there are twenty minutes into a to a improvisation and then all of a sudden it blossoms into this huge thing. I get emotional. I don't know that I cry about it, but I, you know, I get pretty emotional about that. And. The interesting thing about music is like. Music will tether itself to an emotional snapshot in our life. yeah right so for better or for worse when you go back to that song or that album you are immediately transported back to that emotional place yeah and it's just kind of stuck there it's really really stuck there and it's hard to it's hard to not associate it in that way yeah um But yeah, that Cats in the Cradle song, man, that gets me every time. It's so like, oh, just a gut punch, you know? Yeah. It's a trip. The other day, I've been going through some stuff with my family. And my wife had a pretty radical surgery. A month ago yesterday, and I'll never forget, she was in the hospital having surgery, and I'm sitting in the car waiting, and the song Staying Alive comes on. Dude, I started crying and laughing at the same time. I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. Staying alive, you know, I'm like, I hope she's staying alive up there in the hospital room man, you know But it's so weird how music finds us when we need it the most whether it's in a car ride somewhere and everybody's quiet or maybe you know, you're at your house, you got the radio on, or maybe you have your own playlist and you've Corey, you know, set up your own playlist and especially for psychedelics too, man. I think people that are finding their way with their relationship with psychedelics, be it recreation or situational, maybe you're figuring some stuff out. Like it's that, that playlist can have a huge impact on the way in which you move through that experience, man. Yeah, I, I agree. It's very, um, It's very much connected to like the emotional, you know, you can use it to lift yourself up, you know, and sometimes you want to go into that melancholy. Yeah. You know, I'm that way with with like Downward Spiral, that trend, the Nine Inch Nails album. which is probably, if not the first, definitely the first or second most influential album of my life. And I'll listen to it straight through. Whenever I listen to it, I can't listen to like one song. And that is a, like I get physical reactions from listening to that album. And it's a very dark thing. It's a very dark place that it puts you in, but like you choose to do that for whatever reason. whether it's self-destruction or it's like you know you want to go back and listen to it but like I get like the emotional parts of that album and those songs like give me a physical reaction to it a very somatic thing if we were to talk about it in our like kind of psychedelic space it's a very somatic reaction so it's fascinating how, how, you know and you know, the people who were doing that were writing that, for that reason at the time, they were kind of just expressing themselves in the space that they were in at the time. It was a fascinating interview on NPR with Trent Reznor many years ago when he first started doing film scores. It was a girl with a dragon tattoo and it was Fresh Air was the name of the interview show. And she asked him about, she was asking him questions about the songs he wrote on Downward Spiral. And he said, you know, I don't really like to talk about that. that was a horrible point in my life that's why the music is the way it is I said I don't really want to talk about it but that's genius right that's my mind so yeah it's interesting to think one of my there's like a pattern that I see sometimes and I'm always drawn to the interviews like I think anthony akitas had one I think trent had one um kurt cobain definitely had a bunch of them but they always talk about the way in which how they wrote while they were high. I know Green Day, they talk about it a little bit, like how they wrote music when they were in like a dark place, whether they were high on drugs or something like that versus when they wrote when they aren't. And they always say like, oh, when I stopped taking the drugs, I was afraid I wasn't going to be able to write that way anymore. It's an interesting concept to start hearing about how they create music and the substances they use to put them in that place to create music. What do you think about that? I would agree. I would agree. And I think I get it like I get their point. I'm not advocating like them. Right, right. mash out of their mind in studio. However, I think sometimes you need to get in that sort of headspace to disconnect yourself from your everyday, like the everyday bullshit that you're doing. Yeah, I can't be creative. If you're like worrying about everything you know um so I think it's okay you know I think to turn that part of your brain off so you can listen to the creative part of your brain I get it yeah you know when you look at these people it's fascinating to me you look at the people who have gotten sober and like whether they're better or worse I'm not gonna I'm not in no place to say that but they're so different you look at like stevie ray vaughn before he was sober and after he was sober totally different um, you know, uh, buddy guy, totally different. I met buddy guy. I was a seven year old kid, very green, very green, like very innocent. Um, okay. But I ended up by certain course of events. I was working security at a buddy guy concert where I grew up and, uh, he wouldn't go on stage until they bought him his alcohol. Right. And I was like, well, I don't understand that. I don't understand that at all. And, um, was he was like two hours late when he came out he was just like in it he was in he was gone but uh man one of the most amazing concerts I've ever seen you know um so I I understand I understand that I typically tend not to write in a different headspace Um, but I write really sporadically, especially nowadays. Like I have my like main rig here with my like working stuff that I use for, for jobs and clients in school. And then I have my like recording rig right next to here. So I literally like go back and forth all day. I'm like, okay, I pause and I'll like put five minutes in on the track or something like that. It's not a time. it's not the best time management thing for getting music out. Cause it takes me so long, but yeah. But it's the process, man. Everybody's got their own creative process and whatever works for you, you know, that's the right way to do it. Let me jump back to some questions over here. This one comes to us from Solomon from Brooklyn. What's up Solomon. He says, can a single note carry the weight of a thousand lifetimes? Yes. Yes, I think so. So much so that using guitar players as an example, like you could tell in one note who you're listening to, depending on the guitarist. Like you give me one like bent vibrato note from Warren Haynes, I know it's Warren Haynes. right or like a guitar tone like you give me like one like riff that's really distorted and really open and like sounds a certain way you're like okay well that's like a three eleven song or whatever I don't know I'm just throwing stuff out there yeah um yeah sometimes I think it's the simplest This is completely diametrically opposed to what I was just talking about. Completely opposite of Trent Reznor and Nine Inch Nails. But then you look at someone like Ani DiFranco, who is so stripped down. It's usually just her and a guitar. But the emotions that she can convey with her and a guitar are absolutely amazing. astounding. And her body of work is so huge. She is so prolific. I don't even know how many albums she's put out, but it's been, it's, it's many, many, many. So yeah. And some people just have that. And then you think vocally, like some people are like, how is that sound coming out of their face? Like how, like, where is that coming? It's definitely coming from a place that is not their own, a place that is not, like I mentioned before, like they're not kind of doing it themselves. It's coming from a deeper place. So if that makes any sense or answers the question at all. yeah without a doubt it's I always see it seems to me like the most talented people the instruments they use are an extension of themselves you know what I mean by that like if you take a stick and you're walking around and you take that stick and you tap a bookcase or you tap the ground like you can feel the bookcase or the ground through that stick in your body and the same thing seems to be true of people that play music on a level that's visceral is that that that instrument Is actually part of them and they're using it just in such rhythm with their body and their awareness that it can't help but infect or Sort of be contagious to the other people around them. Is that something you've encountered too? Like personally encountered or yeah, like when you play music, do you see the instrument as an extension of yourself? Yeah, a hundred percent. It's almost like you're not really like playing an instrument, you know, it's, you get to this space where you're just, it is, it's just kind of like, this is what I do. You know, this is part of, yeah, this is, yeah. Yeah. I can definitely, I can definitely, uh, see that. Yeah. Um, And I guess like some people who sit down at the piano feel that way. I feel that way, you know, like with a guitar in my hand, it's just kind of feels right. It's almost like it feels like something's there, like it's always supposed to be there. And, you know, you don't realize how much you missed it until it's there, you know. So yeah, I'd say I feel that way about it. But I also think too, you know, like doing the electronic stuff, like I feel like the studio, whatever your studio is, I don't have a fancy setup by any means. But that's that can be an instrument as well. And I think to think of it in that way, you know, whether it be like the plugins you use, or the loops or whatever the samplers like that's another instrument in and of itself. So yeah, I think using the tools that are at your disposal for sure. Maybe that's just a sign of mastery, whether you're a carpenter, whether you're a guitar player, or whether you're a truck driver. When you use the tools that you use daily as an extension of yourself, that sounds like mastery to me. I know my cousin Nick, he drives these big rigs, and that guy can parallel a big rig in a space that just barely fits, and he can do it effortlessly. like that's mastery you know it's it's so cool to get to see the artistry in everybody and if you just pan back and you take a few moments to see the person you're talking to as an artist you really get a different view of who they are and what they're doing and whether they enjoy it or not it's pretty beautiful to look at it that way yeah I agree we all have our strengths right and and um and I think seeing it that way I I think is a very um I think it's a very nice way to do it because I think so many people would not see it that way. You know, like what artistry is in, you know, being a truck driver, being a plumber, being an HVAC person. Well, there's there's nuances and create, you know, there's nuances of it. They're better at it than you are, than I am. You know, they've studied it. They've gotten good at it. Like there's there's merit to that for sure. Hundred percent. There's merit to everybody. so yeah I agree yeah I wish I hope more people listening to this will see themselves as an artist whatever you do do it creatively do it with some passion be good at it you know and if you don't like what you're doing find something else that you're good at on the side until you can do that thing you love full time out there and I think maybe it's kind of like beaten out of us yeah of course you know because when you see little kids they're just creative by default. Like that is their, their default setting is being creative. Yeah. You know, the amount of stuff my kids can come up with, with a stick is astounding to me. Yeah. You know, I think part of that is, of like beaten out of us as you you know you go through life and you go through school and you go through the system and then you're an adult and you're like you're just living life and stuff like that a lot of that creativity is just kind of like just kind of beaten out of you um yeah now why is that like why is it beaten out of you because creativity is dangerous to a certain extent open-minded people are dangerous to a certain extent. Freethinkers are dangerous to a certain extent. That's why we have the confines of the institution. Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. That's one of my biggest problems with education is that You know when you look at everybody listening to this knows someone that has student debt or worse still has student debt that they'll never pay off in their lifetime It's like what does that say about the institutions of higher learning when you graduate? with sort of a indentured servant You know pathway moving forward like now you now on some level The creativity is really out of you because now you have to conform to these different roles that are out there for you when You know, maybe the best education you can get is the language of experience just trying to figure it out on your own You know not listening to the lecture of someone who has lectured their whole life and not really done a whole lot Okay, I get kind of deep in that sometimes but I I see it breaking especially in the world of psychedelics like I see people teaching themselves and healing themselves and finding a way forward that fits them instead of a method that was dictated towards them. Do you see that same path sort of evolving for people? Yes, I do. I do. Because, you know, we have to stop thinking that the more letters behind someone's name or the more however high up on the corporate ladder or however many degrees they have, like that, that makes them some way more intellectual than, than others or, or more well-read or so. I mean, I've met people who, you know, never went to college and they were, you know, once my father's is a perfect example. He, he never went to school and he like was one of the smartest people I ever, I ever knew. Um, like these institutions do not just give you a free pass of like, I'm, you know, and I think it's an ego thing. I think it is really. Yeah, you again, we all have our own expertise. And we all have merit. I think that's kind of the biggest thing that we need to learn. And I think that's what happens a lot. I think those that some of the things you figure out when you dive into like this world psychedelics, like you, you realize those fundamental truths about humanity and community that because again, because when you're in the psychedelic space, you're turning off all like the other bullshit that you're dealing with on a daily basis. so I think all those sentiments are always there the humanity the community stuff like that but they're so covered up with the noise of life and you know you turn off once you turn it off turn that noise off and you can actually hear the things that are like vibrating within you at all times yeah I love that. I think that's what music does too, is on some level, it forces you to be in the moment or maybe it doesn't force you, but it invites you to be in the moment alone with some rhythm, with some thoughts and everything else kind of falls off in the background. And all of a sudden you find yourself with some clarity or thinking about things in your life that maybe you would put on the back burner. It's such a beautiful dance when we can find ourselves with music or just find ourselves alone and not dealing with all the know the noise like you called it I think that's a really good way to put it like all the noise back there yeah it certainly brings you into the present yeah you know and um one of the biggest concerts I went to was slipknot in greensboro north carolina a couple years ago um and I've seen them many times and it wasn't the biggest show I've seen but it was the first show I went to after I got sober after I quit drinking let's put that after I quit drinking um and it was just such an incredibly different experience for me being there and being like completely clear-headed and like just watching this band you know um that was a huge transformative moment for me because you go into those you go into a space like that in a different you're like well how am I gonna go to a concert without drinking beer like how you're almost like how am I gonna do this yeah same way the first couple gigs I went back to after I quit drinking like how am I gonna play you know but um when you're not you know covering up the different aspects of that performance with like alcohol or whatever and I'm not saying I'm not trying to demonize it like I love a lot of people love to you know have a couple drinks and go to see a show there's nothing about there's nothing wrong with that um that's not the type of person I was I wasn't like having a couple drinks to have fun I was like mainlining stuff but anyway um and all that's gone and you have this like very raw very emotional very like present tense experience you know Um, and I, I spent quite a bit of that constant, like looking at like, like, of course the bands up here, they're killing it. That's fine. But like, you're watching the crowd and watching this community and just watching this like undulating mosh pit, you know, that it's just, it's beautiful to me. Um, yeah it's an interesting memory right there yeah yeah that's why that's what I think is lacking from psychedelic science at least the convention side I'm sure there's going to be all kinds of cool satellite events and I know I think um I think uh The Tendava group has some pretty cool music scene that they're going to have, these satellite events. I know with the Jonas Brothers on Psychedelic Science Day, too, they're going to have some musical acts there, too. But there's something to be said about music and art that goes hand in hand with psychedelics, whether it's through decriminalization or even the commercial side of it. I really feel like we haven't quite shaken hands with the creative community and psychedelics in a way that has exploded onto the scene yet. And I'm looking forward to making that happen and seeing it happen. Yeah. I mean, in our space, we have like the artists that we know of who are really big, you know, big time. Like you'd say like East Forest is, you know, probably kind of the like, you know, probably the most recognizable musician in the space, right? And I mean that with no detriment to other musical artists in the space. But if you're thinking about like psychedelic artists who have transcended into the general population, I don't know that I could think of someone more than like Alex Gray. And... Remember him and Tool? Yeah, yeah, of course. So like... Like they have an amazing ongoing collaboration and stuff like that. And, you know, there are other like psychedelic artists and there was that whole psychedelic rock term and stuff like that. But I'd say someone who is really deeply rooted in the aspects of the psychedelic experience, but also transcends to the greater population. I don't know. Yeah, we'll see. I think it's going to come not so much from our generation, but I think it's going to come from like the next generation. Like I think that they're the ones that are going to integrate these tools into a whole new world of creative explosion. Like they're kind of coming up in it right now. And when I look at the psychedelic scene, it seems to be sort of the late fifties. It's like this medical container where they're trying to figure out ways to, you know, centralize it and build institutions around it. And once all that crumbles, I think that you'll see the real roots and the real fruit of creativity be born from the ashes of that. And not that I want to see it all fail and crumble, but I think that that's where the real creativity comes from is on some level we're using psychedelics right now like it's a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Do you think we can ruin it, though? Like, is it like isn't what's supposed to happen going to happen? Like, I go back and forth between these two ideas, too. And I'm like, oh, I see all this censorship happening and I see all these things happening. But maybe that's part of it. You know, like maybe, you know, here we are trying to tell this divine intelligence how it should work. But I think the divine intelligence is laughing at us like you guys don't know. What do you monkeys know? Watch this. It's all part of it. think it's all growing pains yeah without a doubt right um I just think we have to be aware be like mindful of like wolf in sheep's clothing you know right now I think it's a very delicate time for the psychedelic space that we need to be wary of people who might not be in it for the right reasons um yeah if we can get over that hump I think we'll be, we'll make it. But I just see... What do you think that looks like? I don't know. I don't know what it looks like. Because I think like we, you know, we're... there's still a lot of hurdles that we have to think there's still a lot that we have to figure out, you know, we're still talking about something that goes back so many thousands of years in human history. And we're, we're trying to like put it into this, like, we know it's beneficial, right? We know it can change lives. We know that it's transformative. We know that it's so good for, for so many different things and so many different aspects of mental health, but you're still taking, it's like trying to put lightning in a bottle. You're still taking this, this, you know, force of nature, this this thing that has been around us forever. And you're trying to like, close it in and put it in a box and market it and, you know, put it on Amazon, you know, it's it's like, I don't feel good about that. I don't really know how to make sense of it. And by the way, I don't have the I don't have the answer. I don't I don't either. Or, you know, and it's interesting. Because of the whole like psychedelic bubble thing, like when you're in it, like, you have a very different viewpoint than when you're out of it. Yeah, there's a huge divide. yeah between when you're when you're in it and you're staying up with you know and we're interfacing with people like us and all the other people we talk to all the time and when you're not big gap yeah big gap like you're speaking a whole other language yeah it's interesting my um I got a cool friend of mine that goes to uh her son goes to school with my daughter and she does a lot of breath work and stuff And I'm like, oh, man, here's somebody. We got into this really cool conversation. And then I started talking about iboga. And she was just like, I could just see her be like, she stopped me. She's like, what's iboga? And I had to stop myself because I'm so deep in it, you know? And I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm not. I got to pull back here. Like maybe people don't even know what I'm talking about. Cause I could see your face kind of be like, I don't know what you're talking about, but it's interesting to bring up that bubble. Cause so often, especially us. And that's, that's one reason why I think we're so excited to go to this convention is like everybody there on some level is, is, is deep in it in a way. And you really get a chance to start digging into these different ideas, which is, I'm excited for but let me bring it back for a minute like there's been a really big wave of censorship out there on Instagram meta like it seems like a lot of people that have put a lot of hard work into a lot of Services or products or just their own brand have found themselves waking up one morning and everything gone, man What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, a lot. And we're talking not just little guy, we're talking big, big time accounts like psychedelic science went down. Global psychedelic week went down. Studio Delic, like I think psychology, psychedelics today went down. We're talking big time accounts. Yeah, yeah. So much so that like, I mean, I put together a video of like how to combat, you know, like, but what's funny to me is, Most of them, they got these notifications that like, you know, standards and practices, you know, your account's been suspended and then all of a sudden, like your account's been deleted. And then all of a sudden, three days later, it's just magically back up. I don't trust it. I don't trust the process. I think it's a manufactured thing to try to keep people in line. I think someone, somewhere there's, you know, like there's some sort of, okay, like if we threaten them and we shut down their account and they're like, all of a sudden we like give the candy back to them like this little kid, they're gonna remember that we threatened them and shut them down and they're gonna try to like not promote this, you know, psychedelic agenda. And I can't help but notice, That all this happened like right between when the fifty million dollar budget for Ibogaine Research in Texas and Psychedelic Science, that shutdown was like right in the middle. Am I putting my tinfoil hat on? Maybe a little bit, but like. Yeah, there's and some people's pages never did come back and that sucks. Yeah. And it is it is. censorship. And we don't realize how much our own algorithms are censored to begin with, you know, and like they're very homogenized and there's so much like out there, but you're only seeing what you're what the algorithm has decided you should see. know um and like people are so worried about ai and I always tell people and sometimes I tell my kids this just to freak them out and but like you know don't be worried about ai because your phone's listening to you all the time anyway you have a conversation about something two days later an ad for it shows up on your feed that's not an accident yeah um so I mean, I'm making a lot of that as conjecture with the whole psychedelic shutdown that we all went, the meta ban that we all went through a week ago or two weeks ago. But I think there's some truth to it. know there's a lot of fraud too like there's a lot of people selling supplements and selling bogus things or just conning people like there's an epidemic I'll say there's an epidemic of that and like you see it everywhere so I think on some level that The media platforms have to do something. I'm sure people are calling and complaining and you don't want your – and it's not good for the psychedelic movement, the legitimate people out there that are really trying to go out and create something helpful or help heal people. It's not helpful to them to have this wave of, you know, buy my magic mushroom for nineteen ninety nine or, you know, people just putting their credit cards online and getting scammed by somebody in a far away place where there's no recourse like that. So I think that on some level, the ban, while maybe maybe it was sweeping and wide, I think that there were some good intentions behind like, hey, this is getting out of control. Like these are these are some hardcore drugs. People could get really hurt. We need to do something about this. So I think that on some level, You know, like it was a move that came from the right place. And I don't want people to get pissed off at me and send me that. Hey, you told the band. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that there's a lot of fraud out there and the online companies, the platforms, they have to do something to at least sort of police it in a way. And sometimes good people get caught up in that mix, man. I agree. I agree. Cause, cause if you're like me, you probably get like people sliding into your DMS trying to sell you crap all the time, you know? Um, and you're like, if you even looked at my page for a second and saw like the, the, um, seriousness and conviction that I talk about things with, you would never try to sell me drugs on, on Instagram. Uh, But they do it because it must work. I mean, they're not going to not, you know, somebody's fallen for it. Yeah. Yeah. I think that there has to be a way to write that algorithm to look for like, okay, this person's selling something, you know, like I think on some level they could find a way, especially with AI today, they could find a way, whether it's through keyword search or some sort of like profiling the language where they could see, okay, this, this has all the hallmarks of a scam. Let's cut all these channels out. They could probably find a way to do it, but maybe, maybe this, encompassing band like you said is like a shot in the dark like hey take it easy we're watching you guys right like it's a lot of like slapping your hand like next time yeah yeah totally totally did you learn that the stove is hot you're not going to do that again are you Yeah. I should get somebody on and I should get somebody on the podcast. It would be a cool podcast to hear the way in which they, they use the tools to their best discretion. It'd probably be a really, really mesmerizing conversation. Very fruitful. Yeah. Yeah. I think so too. That'd be cool. That would be for sure. Nice. Joshua Moyer, man, blowing through this hour over here. I can't wait to meet you, man, give you a hug. If Christian, Kat, if you guys are watching, I don't understand why Joshua Moyer does not have a stage, a corner, a doorway where he can be playing his guitar, man. We're missing a huge option here, man. So if you're part of one of these events... um, reach out to Joshua Moyer, man. I think that the, the live music, the Joshua Moyer experience is something that more people should experience, especially at psychedelic science, man. I appreciate that. And you're very sweet. It's true. But you know, it's okay. I mean, yeah, I, I, I'm not trying to impose myself on people, you know, and that's why I do it for you. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I also like, I'm that type of person. And maybe you are too. Like, man, I've had a redo re look at my, like my schedule for psychedelic science, because I'm like, I'm booking every second that I'm in town and I need to, I need to like not do that. I need to give myself some flexibility to kind of roll with it a little bit and see how it comes up. So I'm not like, boom, boom. Like I'm going to go here. I'm going to go here. I'm going to, you know, and just, try to do too much and be completely burnt out but um I just can't wait for the experience man um I just can't wait and uh but it's gonna you know it's gonna be hard and this is like I'm always thinking about like okay this event's gonna be great but the after it's gonna suck the after of psychedelic science is like we're not all gonna get together again until what night next psychedelic science I don't know Party's almost over, man. What a bummer. I'm already worried about that before the party started. I know. What are you doing? I'm worried about afterwards. That's one of my own personal things I need to work on. When I'm there in the moment for those four days, be in the moment. Enjoy it. Meet as many people as you can and just... hug them for being them. And these people that you talk to, you know, on a regular basis and, and just enjoy it. And so it's going to be great. It's going to be great. I think it'll be a really like a very like signpost life experience. Have you ever been, were you at the last one? Have you ever been to them? No, I never been. That's my first one. Awesome. Yeah, it's gonna be a good one. It's gonna be a good one. And they have so many good speakers speakers to that I'm like, there's the there's like the psychedelic fatherhood one with Caesar and a couple other people. It's so heavy on the veteran track. And you know, I'm a huge, you know, advocate for working with veterans. I'm looking forward to a couple of those as well. So yeah, it's just gonna be so so so so good. And then the next after that is like Global Psychedelic Week. That's all, you know, all virtual, but that'll be in November. So that'll be kind of another thing to look forward to. That's all virtual? I thought that's all virtually. Well, so there are virtual. They are hosting in-person events as well. But like a lot of the speakers will be virtual throughout the week. Yeah. I see. Yeah. Do they, do they have a place locked down for that? Like, is there an actual space? Are they like, I don't know. I got to figure it out. I I'm brand new to the, I I'm on the team now doing social media with them, but we just kind of had our first circle up this week. Um, and we're meeting at psychedelic science to kind of brainstorm and work on some strategy. But I think things are going to be ramping up with them after psychedelic science for sure. So I'll have more information, um, I don't know much, but, you know, I jumped at the chance to work with Dennis and Malika. Of course. Because they're just amazing. So. We'll see. Again, that's just something I'm just so grateful to be a part of. Yeah. I'm grateful to be a part of your podcast and grateful to be a part of like psychedelic science and stuff like that, because. I've been an advocate for this medicine for so long. It's nice to finally be active in it and, you know, making the choices and taking the steps towards, you know, being more in the community of it instead of just being someone who's like shouting from the mountaintop for nobody to hear you, you know? So it's going to be, it's such a cool time. It's such a cool time. Yeah, there's a real community that's starting to form around, and it's becoming visceral. And the same way the mycelium starts coming together and producing fruit, I feel like we're at that stage, Matt. So it is a really exciting time. Yeah, we are the fungus, the web underneath the soil that's kind of all connected that's going to pop up. Yeah. You can see the pins if you look close. It's starting to pin. Joshua, where can people find you, man? I know I got the YouTube channel up there, but what is the best place for people to find you if they want to check out some music or maybe they want to reach out to you and hear what you're collaborating on or where you're at or what you're doing, man? yeah yeah the youtube channel the dichotomy collective that's kind of my new one where I took I took off like I had a long-standing youtube page that was kind of messy and I'm just taking all this new stuff and putting it on this new page it's at dichotomy collective um you can find me on linkedin it's I think the link is joshua moyer nc um or just find me on joshua moyer find me on george's friend list um You know, um, those are probably the best places for now. I'm in the process of loading all my stuff, all this, all this new music into like all of the stream platforms, Spotify and Pandora and all that stuff. I'm in the, in the process of getting all that up and running in the hopes that it's up there by the time we come around to psychedelic science. Um, so I, I kind of did the stage name thing. So it's less about me as a person and more about the creative part of it. so more to come on that so you know um again getting these like this huge catalog of binaural beats and stuff like that up on spotify and youtube and stuff like that so yeah that's where you can find me pro probably youtube linkedin uh instagram it's joshua moyer psych p s y c h um yeah just doing all the things man You know what? You know what? I would love to see on unlike the YouTube channel I would love to see you making the music on the YouTube channel like I think that would be such an interesting aspect of it like because you have so many differently like the binaural beats then you have the guitar tracks and you have the vocals on there and Like I'll watch YouTube for music sometimes or I'll have like a playlist on there like I think it would be sick like there's some really cool guys to play handpan they get like millions of views and And I think that it would be cool to get to see the creative process and the end result. You know what I mean by that? I don't know if there's a whole lot of people doing that, but you're great at that, man. It would be really cool to see that dimension of it. I think it would be cool too. Yeah. I think if you just set up, you just set up a camera like above me in the space here and just like, that would be cool. That's a good idea. I like that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll talk more offline about it. Yeah, of course. Yeah, so ladies and gentlemen, go down to the show notes. Reach out to Joshua Moyer. If you're going to be in Denver, look him up. But go check out the YouTube channel for sure. The guy's putting out some incredible music out there that I think is different than anything else you'll hear. I love it. I think other people will love it. And that's all we got for today, ladies and gentlemen. Have a beautiful day. Hang on briefly afterwards, Joshua. Yeah, definitely. Okay. Aloha, everyone.