Woo! Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. Hope the sun is shining, hope the birds are singing, hope the wind is at your back. No map. No mercy, no God in this signal. What we have here is not a podcast, it's an interdimensional dump of raw signal from the edge of the hallucination coming in hot from the cortex of a dying archon. We found the feed inside a broken cassette tape under a senator's tongue. Enter Jack Gorslin, truth hacker, reality surgeon, full time ghost in the policy machine. He's got classified chalkboards and a third nostril for lies. He once broke a teacher's union strike with a pin full of mescaline and marks. He does interviews and dreamscapes and files FOIA requests on ayahuasca. And then Alex Detmering. No, no, you don't get to understand Alex. You interface with him. You black out and wake up mid slide deck, sweating glyphs. He's a brand sorcerer with teeth, half venture capitalist, half forgotten Sumerian storm god. He built a marketing funnel that opened a portal in Midtown. jack is the scalpel alex is the scream together they form the delta virus of gnosis we are on the eve of a conference yes but it feels more like a ritual trial by fire held in the mouth of a dead god the phds are humming the politicians are leaking spores and the lunatics the lunatics have taken the wheel ladies and gentlemen so rip out your compass bite down on your microphone and scream your birth name backwards into the void this is true life podcast welcome everybody how are you today Yeah, thanks for having us. Really appreciate it. Yeah, man. I'm super stoked you guys are here, man. We got a big conference coming up. Both of you guys are putting out incredible content. You guys are both doing amazing things out there, and I'm stoked to have you all on board today. Jack, I want to start with you over here, man. The Psychedelic Writers Guild, you got all the psychedelic states of America. Tell us what you got going on over there. Man, it's been a wild ride. A couple of months ago, I teamed up with the good folks at Psychedelics Today and Lucid News, along with a really great growing team to form the Psychedelics States of America Advocacy Spotlight Initiative. We're aiming to interview an advocacy or advocacy group, an advocate or advocacy group in all fifty states, plus D.C. and Puerto Rico, along with an international presence. I've had conversations with advocacy leaders in Ireland, Spain, south of the equator as well, as far reaching as Southeast Asia, really hoping to cast a light and make the leaders within communities like ours who are really fighting for change in the front lines of this renaissance, both in educational awareness and directly in advocacy, really making them unavoidable and unmistakable as far as frontline references you know, for further media coverage, even beyond what we're doing here in the psychedelic media space. So that has been off to a hot start. We've interviewed leaders from Texas just the day after they got their fifty million dollars in Ibogaine state level funding for Ibogaine research, interviewed some really incredible advocates from Maine just last Friday, Nevada a couple of days before that. We had a great column and live stream combo with the good folks at the Michigan Psychedelic Society hosted by Dr. Elena Jaster. Really encourage you, George, to reach out to her. She's fantastic. I think one of the brightest science minds of our time and I think could go down as one of the most important science journalists of our time if I can bring her into the fold even further at some point. So yeah, that's been really what's been going on with Psychedelic States of America. Yesterday, I interviewed Paul Ryder, founder of the Congregation for Sacred Practices. They just accomplished a pretty remarkable feat in becoming the first psychedelic church seminary ever to be accredited to their knowledge, really adding legitimacy to the psychedelic religion scene and how people become ministers and facilitators, etc. So really trying to put a face on these issues in a way that isn't just the same five to seven scientists and five to seven lawyers, which I love a lot of those people, but there's a lot more folks out there doing the good work really in the weeds. So you and I have spoken extensively, and Alex was an early advocate for the creation of a Psychedelic Writers Guild, to wrap up my long intro answer pretty quickly, which has been a slower building process than I'd originally expected or hoped because you really need to build a team in order to build the next gen kind of community that we have in mind. So in a one sentence elevator pitch kind of way, the Psychedelic Writers Guild is an attempt to really both corral and coalesce the next generation of really great psychedelic writers, journalists, content creators, educational and harm reduction specialists. And I really think that creating a base of resources for collaboration and co-learning will also being able to really elevate and amplify the quality of coverage content and advocacy work that's actually being pushed out there. uh we're all much stronger when we team up I really believe that especially in the age of algorithmic discrimination uh and so many other forces working against amplifying genuinely you know grassroots and or you know uh community-led movements like this populist-led movements like the secular renaissance so the writers guild is an attempt to both out of frustration for the lack of quality mainstream media coverage there seems to be, i.e. the Los Angeles Times calling cacao ayahuasca light just a couple of months ago, or the Boston Globe providing some of like the most, you know, uninformative and uninspired election coverage of what could have been one of the most seminal drug policy reform campaigns of our time, the failed question for campaign. just completely lost an opportunity to really detail what that movement could be to one of the most influential electorates at the state level in the United States. So through all that frustration and conversations with so many incredible people, scientists, media leaders, business owners, nonprofit advocates, et cetera, you know, it's kind of become very clear that we need to take the reins ourselves and really build a better way and build a hub so that the quality of this media coverage can, you know, be fed from the independent space into the mainstream media. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think that some of the most important journalists of our time and some of the most talented media professionals of our time are actively working in drug journalism right now we do more with less we have limited resources limited funds and limited scope and yet some of the very best true old school on the front lines reporting of some of the most seminal movements of our time related to drug policy reform in the western world are actively being conducted and reported in magazines and online outlets that my parents have never heard of. And that's a real shame. And I think that we have an opportunity to radically restructure the way that drug journalism meets the American populace where they're at. Man, it's really well said. I see so many people on the front lines putting out so many beautiful articles. And in some ways, it seems to me to be a renaissance of journalism in so many ways. Alex, you're in the game too, man. You're putting out some beautiful pieces, not only written pieces, but also some incredible thought-provoking out-of-nature pieces too. What are your thoughts on what Jack was talking about, where we are in this renaissance right now and contributing to that? Well, so contributing to it, I've just begun. Like you guys are, you know, you and many other people are way more seasoned actually having skin in the, in the public game in this space. But I really love it, man. And, and it, Thanks, man. It comes from my heart. I'm trying to do the best that I can to enter into becoming a journalist in a world that I truly love and doing it with integrity and getting better. I connected with Jack. a while ago because he's a total badass and he is productive I I think he's like half generative ai because I'm not exactly sure how he writes so many articles what he does and they're good and it's weird so you know more more power to him I I hope he teaches me his secrets when we meet in person but um yeah uh we met a while ago and I think we've come together on the idea that like psychedelics and psychedelic journalism and all this content that that could be created we could we could it could be so much bigger than it is right like imagine like when psychedelics first hit the scene right they were at the very like cutting edge of culture they defined culture in a lot of ways you think about like freaking Beatles songs and entire albums, right? Or like Allen Ginsberg poems where he took LSD. And you think about all this stuff, right? That was at the very cutting edge in defining like what fashion was, what so many things were. And over some decades that psychedelics was pushed underground because of all the reasons that we know. But there's a sense that now is the time to reclaim kind of the place in culture that psychedelic media could have. and uh because it's been you know safeguarded by some true honest to god like heroes uh who have stuck with it in in in times that I can't even imagine because I wasn't even born right uh but but now um now it's kind of time for this space I feel like to grow up and I'm not like saying it from like some kind of space of judgment because I need to grow up just as much as any or more than anybody else right uh but uh but jack and I and a bunch of other uh people in the media space want to see that happen and that's kind of what we're hoping to start off with this psychedelic writers guild is create a professional group that pushes each other to make the next best stuff in this space we're starting it off in psychedelic science with uh panel that uh jack and I are doing with with caesar and but season run as as we all know mary a bunch of other uh awesome journalists and content creators in this space and we hope that it'll be like the first meeting uh where we get together we talk about this as like a professional uh organization right an organization of professionals and where we start talking about like look how can we help each other how can we uh reclaim kind of the birthright of some of the coolest content that can be possible which is like fuck the very frontiers of the mind and and combining that with some with some journalism all the other tools of the trade and I also want to note you know it I think it's you know I I got my start alex you mentioned where you know you're kind of new to this i I've talked with George about this before. I wanted to be a reporter since I was twelve years old, that very particular strain of Audi HD, if you will, but really got my start, you know, eighteen months ago. You know, my first byline talking to his memo was less than two years ago and, you know, was able to kind of ride a wave of covering the question for campaign to hear, which has been incredible. you know an incredible journey but in that process to alex's point you know have have seen both a demand for higher quality content uh in the mainstream but have also seen like the need to fully legitimize this space um you know as a journalistic beat I have been trying to work with a number of, you know, larger kind of legacy media outlets on, you know, pitching some collaborative stories with independent outlets in the psychedelic space, nonprofit outlets in the psychedelic space. And a really great example of just how it doesn't still doesn't connect is that I brought a pretty big scoop. that I've been working on for a while to a local outlet in Boston. And the news director, after giving him the full pitch with my co-reporter, his first question was basically to ask if I was being funded by some drug dealer who wanted to see a certain narrative get spun, which is total nonsense. And again, an ignorance of how robust this media ecosystem has been for a long time. And Again, I think all the more need to legitimize this kind of coverage. Drug policy, even beyond the psychedelic space, affects all of us in untold ways, ten times over, even if it's a couple of degrees separated from our daily lives. So the need to deconstruct drugs, drug journalism, and really fully integrate higher quality, more nuanced coverage into how people understand these issues from a news media context, I think is really vital and something I'm really excited that Alex has expressed strong interest in as well. I also want to note that our panel at the Psychedelic Playhouse on Wednesday night next week is four white dudes and Cesar Martin is our Colombian brother, but three white dudes and So Mary Caron, who is one of my favorite writers in this space, I've had a lot of really interesting conversations with folks about the need for broader representation in the psychedelic media ecosystem. And I want to assure anyone who's attending that that is one hundred percent our priority for what comes next. I would love to work with you know, journalists who can tell stories that I'm not the most equipped person to tell those stories and to report, you know, on those issues. So I'm hoping to incorporate, you know, a cornucopia of diversity in the building of this community, not just in the bringing more people in after it's established. So I really want this to be a community built effort. Man, I love it. It's such a double-edged sword. It seems like the more better stories and the more the psychedelic and drug policy argument gets out there, the bigger the censorship. And we've seen a giant wave of censorship from Artem and normalized psychedelics to Carly Dutch, all these incredible people that have been really out on the trail crushing it. All of a sudden, they're just kind of getting wiped off of Meta and wiped off these other boards. Do you think that somehow these two things are like the bigger it gets, the harder the censorship is? And if so, Are we all playing a role in that? Are we somehow playing into the censorship by getting the message out there? I think it's a really good question. First of all, shout out Carly from Studio Delic, one of my favorites, and really excited to be collabing with them on the Playhouse events next week. I think it really... I don't think that there's a good answer. When the algorithm is designed to sweep indiscriminately for any mention of these substances, then I don't think that we're contributing to, you know, That process, I think that we're fighting upstream, a pretty impossible battle. And I think the only way that changes is to really shake some of these Silicon Valley tech executives by the shoulders and say, don't you see the hypocrisy of the use in private boardroom retreats and the rise of C-suite executive usage. And I just interviewed Paul Rider yesterday, who was in the dot-com bubble in the late nineties, first moved out to Silicon Valley and was working in that space before psychedelics were cool in the tech scene and said it was completely different. This is not something that was happening in Silicon Valley, thirty years ago in the way that it is now. And yet censorship is even more rampant, I think, now than it was then of psychedelics in you know in our culture uh even though uh there is such an increased interest uh in access and information so I don't know that we're hurting it actively but I do think that an inflection point is being reached where uh some shoulder shaking and some you know some stern shouting through megaphones outside of uh office headquarters might be in need Alex, what are your thoughts on that, man? Well, I mean, in some sense, it's a sign of maturity, right? Yeah. Like, you know, if you make enough noise, then you run into resistance and then you break through and you hit the next level of resistance when you hit the next level, right? So I think in some sense, it's a good sign. Look, if I had an Instagram profile that had like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I, I, I, I empathize with the people that have put blood, sweat and tears into building profiles and, and it getting wiped out. That is, that is awful. But, and, and I am sorry, but I would say at some, at some level, right. Censorship is a bit of a vote of, of legitimacy or, or a sample legitimacy means are making enough noise to get, to get, to create some pushback. And I think, you know, if, if psychedelics and if like what, what, was going on here wasn't legit and wasn't really coming from people that care and are willing to put their lives online then I then I would be worried and then this would be existential but because people are doing this many many people are doing this out of like honestly true love and a deep passion I mean that what's the I feel like the it's not really a problem because The passion that we have for just this space and the world that we're hoping that is going to be ushered in is way greater than a fucking algorithm sensor. It's just going to last longer, right? And I feel like given time, we break through. So that's my vibe, man. I'm not super worried about it, although I haven't gotten owned yet by Facebook. So I can only... I've danced a bit with the algorithm in recent days and had, you know, it's interesting. So far, most of my profiles have gone unscathed. My personal profile was suspended for like a week randomly, but I think that has more to do with one rogue actor reporting everybody and their mother that's ever mentioned psychedelics on meta platforms rather than my profile being in violation of community guidelines. But even like the news space, I mean, it just, it's so ridiculous that they can't design a better algorithm. But that said, to shout out, you know, my good friend Kat Kerner, Viva La Underground. It's been going strong for centuries now, but, you know, even in the face of, you know, hundreds of, you know, over a hundred years of prohibition and counting in terms of many drugs, but a half century and counting of psychedelics, The underground is arguably stronger than ever because the underground has been forced to adapt and adjust and find innovative ways to reach people. But, you know, when you get started in the above ground and think everything is peachy and then you have eighty thousand followers and your entire, you know, user, you know, your entire user base or following follower count goes out overnight, you have no way to contact them. are you to do so I'm really curious and I'm hopeful to learn more from folks at psych science about what collective solutions we can start thinking up uh to combat these issues uh I don't think it's as simple as building another platform or anything like that but maybe it is teaming up with the guys at blue sky and the folks at beehive and you know newsletter social media platform combo or maybe it's our own thing uh so we will certainly find out one way or another well uh something that uh comes to mind here is it's also an opportunity for a conversation, right? Like I was always reading my parents who are, conservatives uh they they love what I like they love what I do and they've seen me personally change a lot through it we're we're we're closer than ever it's awesome they send me this article this wall street journal article that uh covered I I think it was ayahuasca or psychedelic in general integration that's going on in silicon valley lots of integration therapists and all this stuff right read through the article kind of a normal piece but I go to the comments and like ninety percent of them are just the most anti-psychedelic like oh we went through this in the sixties it you know it up all our parents all this kind of stuff right so um you know I think living in certain spaces we can think that the culture is a place where it isn't right and moments where there is like pushback are also moments to like talk about like okay where is the state of this conversation really? Where are, how do people really feel about this? Because I, you know, living in the Bay, right. Psychedelic use is pretty, pretty common and not necessarily a point of conversation, right. Or distinction. But I'll, you know, in the Midwest and different places, right? That's a different thing. And so I think like the fact that we're running into this friction, I think is a moment to kind of look at like, well, where is the state of this conversation really? If we're actually going to talk through this censorship, what's necessary to talk to this censorship? Like what would make tech companies comfortable rolling back the censorship built into their algorithms, right? There's some level, there's something that made them put their to begin with and it was probably data driven right uh so so what is what is the data showing and and how and and what does that mean about like communication strategies about what we can do to really take the conversation like mainstream in a more effective way and I think there are ways of doing that um but these are just more my hypotheses I'm not like you know the guess is more than anything think it makes total sense you know and on some level if I if I push back and play devil's advocate like there is so much fraud like there's so many people selling just garbage garbage on the internet people getting hoodwinked and like you know and lord knows what people are selling some sort of you know gas station iboga concoction like there's people getting hurt and losing money so like this they have to do something and if you're an exec and you're getting pushback from Mad people calling in, upset. Maybe people have taken these substances without any research and gotten hurt, and they're going to blame that social media company. They got to do something. And maybe this wide sweeping ban is a way for them to show, look, we're doing our best out here to walk this line of free speech and censorship. So I get it from their perspective. I don't know what it's like to be in the executive boardroom when you have your entire company you know, fucking lawyers coming at you left and right. Like, Hey, shut this down or else. Like, so there's, we got to give them their due. I mean, they're trying to do something. And I think that that's, that needs to be said as well. What are you guys thoughts? I just, I have a hard time believing that, you know, with all of the technology at their disposal, that's currently just sitting in their R and D labs, maybe even like that's already ready to go. And like Apple sits on things for, you know, five years before rolling it out. You can't tell me they don't have the technology to build an algorithm to distinguish the two. I hear you that like something has to be done about, you know, from their perspective, maybe about Telegram, you know, accounts and stuff, you know, I get it, but... It just seems like a lot of excuses about how they can't design a better algorithm. I mean, we've got ChatGPT produced movies that look like the real thing. We've got some of the most incredible tools that man has ever created at our disposal. that can literally warp reality right in front of us and make us question the very fabric of what we're seeing. And yet they can't add a couple of extra lines of code to distinguish whether or not this is a Telegram channel that's selling bogus information. gray market products. And to that point, George, even beyond you mentioned sketchy products, the need for higher quality information and uniform standards in these spaces and to not censor them extends to the legal realm for personal use as well. I have a good friend lives in the state of Texas who, you know, purchased a functional mushroom, what she thought was a functional mushroom, gray market product polka dot bar that has been brand has been known to have a number of copycats. Next thing you know, she's facing a psilocybin possession charge because she had a copycat and didn't realize it. And the bar that she thought didn't have any psilocybin in it. Now, I don't know if that's on Polkadot or if that's on somebody else, but there's a number of issues that extend beyond just the algorithm, social media censorship space, that downstream of that censorship, people are really being harmed and making uninformed decisions and facing legal consequences for something that's not really on them. So yeah, all that said, the urgency is growing to address this in a real way from the tech industry and in a meaningful way that distinguishes. So our livelihoods aren't lost at a time where the average American and the average viewer is reaching for independent information more than they are from established institutions. I think it probably is technically possible. I'm not a developer. I have worked in tech for a while. I'm sure it is technically possible. I think it's a question of pressure and revenue. If there's enough pressure, if enough people show them that they care, that other people care for this content, right? By and large, companies will go where the data points, right? And if it's costing them money and if it's costing them public backlash to be censorious, then they're gonna be incentivized not to do that. So I think, I mean, while I agree, who knows all the things that go on the boardrooms of the top tech companies, but I think in the way that I, random small guy on the internet, but the way I will take this as kind of a personal challenge, I guess, to do my best to show how authentic, real, heart-led, honestly, I'm coming from, right? think it's a challenge for us to really uh break that I really bring this back to like taking this conversation up a level I I think there are things that I think that there are things that can be done within this world that can bring like I would so I'll just give you an example I'll give an example okay I was reading um this amazing book called uh uh the ethics of caring I don't know if you ever read the ethics of caring It's all about just like ethics within therapy relationships, especially with psychedelic therapy, but it's all set in code. And I'm reading through this book and I'm just like blown away at the level of psychological insight that is in this. I'm like, this is insane. I'm like, I feel like this is like in some sense, ten years ahead of where other, where therapy is in other places, just to be honest with you, like where mainstream therapy is in some ways. Like why isn't this more widely known? And I think part of it is that the honest to God wisdom that has come from like just the use of psychedelics has been in some sense, like kept trapped within the culture of psychedelics. Why is that? There's probably a lot of reasons, but I think part of it, at least to me, has to do with communication. And the people that have solved this communication have had outsized gains. Some of them have been like outside, at least originally outside of the psychedelic world and come in. But I think they've kind of given us a little bit of a roadmap. The most obvious example for that is Michael Pollan, right? Michael Pollan, food journalist. Twenty years comes in, writes one book that changes the way so many people perceive psychedelics. So you can love Michael Pollan or hate Michael Pollan, but I don't think you can deny. I mean, I personally like Michael Pollan a lot, but I'm saying I don't think you can deny the impact that he had. I think a big part of why that was is because the way he talked about psychedelics and the psychedelic world. was fundamentally different than how it usually was talked about by the people, by many people within that world. And I find that to be a compelling case study, right? And an inspiration that I think psychedelic media creators, people in this space can learn from. I mean, and obviously he has authority and stuff like that. I hear that there are things that we can't replicate, but I also think there are lessons learned for us. And that's kind of what I'm trying to do personally, right? Is really, really look at my language and really, really look at the stories that I'm creating. And I'm a freaking noob, okay? Not speaking here as like someone who's more than just a noob trying to get better every post and everything that I produce. That's what I am, but I'll just say what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to make it so that anyone could listen or read what I'm saying and understand what I'm saying immediately right like psychedelics in this world has developed a very powerful language for a reason right we're talking about things that are different that are unusual right but when we're trying to communicate that outside of the people that are familiar with that lexicon it becomes, I think there's a disconnect there often. And then people kind of naturally like dismiss what they don't connect with immediately, right? And so I think that's a big challenge for psychedelic content. That's a big challenge for psychedelic media, right? It's because like we almost have to play within this ecosystem because it is so awesome that people here are honestly by and large quite loving that survive, right? But I think to thrive, we have to risk the dark passage, which is to go beyond communicating this. I'm talking myself as much as anyone, right? Go beyond talking to these people to talk to the rest of the world, to the people that are commenting on those Wall Street Journal articles and be like, psychedelics ruined my parents. in the sixties, they were all delusional, yada, yada. I'm not saying that's true or not true, but I'm saying that person's feelings are still real. And there's a lot of people that feel that way. And I, and I'm not saying they're altogether wrong, but I'm saying there needs to be a conversation. And I think that can be changed through the way we communicate. I love it. I definitely agree. And I think this is something that Alex and I both very much first connected over, is I viewed telling the stories of the everyday advocate or activist in this space as a public education service in a lot of ways, but also really wanting to, I mentioned my parents. So my parents are in their mid-sixties, not the kind of folks who I think will ever touch a psychedelic substance in their lives. And that's OK. But when I get talking with my mom about, the UC San Francisco study about psilocybin and Parkinson's or about Ibogaine as a potential for multiple sclerosis. their ears perk up. And I think finding a way to bridge the gap. And really, I view PSA's audience. We lean into psychedelic imagery and really trying to make it both about the American movement, but also these are drugs-related issues. These are drug policy-related issues. But I think that the broader audience should be as many people as possible and that messaging should be tailored not to betray or take away from the pioneers of the underground and those who are really embedded in traditional psychedelic culture, but rather as an homage to be able to bridge the gap and make people understand how important that era and also its consistency and persistence in today's renaissance really are to maintaining the values of what the psychedelic revolution aimed to be in its first iteration. So, yeah. Yeah. Jack, I know you got to jump out in a little bit, man. You want to take a few minutes just to find, to tell people where they can find you, what you got coming up? Yeah, I have to jump because we have our last psychedelic playhouse, like, I guess, run of show meeting. I'm actually a little bit late. Apologies. But yeah, you could find my work pretty much anywhere online. Psychedelic States of America on Substack. We're hoping to kind of revamp and have our live streams dual streamed there. And we really mean the world to me. If anybody watching could go subscribe to Psychedelic States of America on YouTube, follow us on all platforms, LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter. Instagram. You could find my work in outlets such as Double Blind Filter Magazine, Marijuana Moment, Psychiolic Alpha, Talking Joints Memo, a number of others, Lucid News. We've got a really great PSA column series where we're kind of tying in the information we've gathered from our live stream interviews to really tell the most full-threaded story about the state of psychedelic community and advocacy in each state that we touch on. So I don't think that's really something a lot of folks are doing. When we go down to Texas and we talk to the advocates, we also interview Justin LaPree, founder of the Illuminating Collective just outside of Austin, and find out just by chance that They're hosting the first ever Ibogaine ceremony on US soil later this summer. And that's happening just a couple of miles off the road from the State House where they're ponying up fifty mil. So I don't think that you'll find coverage in The Wall Street Journal or The Washington Post or The New York Times that goes the extra mile and weaves in who in these communities is really doing the work, even beyond the political advocacy that makes the splashy headline because they get the big funding. So all that said, so thankful for you, George. So thankful for you, Alex, and anybody who's tuning in, uh, at one o'clock Eastern on a, on a Tuesday. Uh, but I'll see you guys next week in Denver. Uh, I put some information in the public comments, but, uh, use a code PWG, ten for ten percent off your psychedelic playhouse ticket. If you'd like. Um, we hope to see you there. There'd be continued folks. All right, Jack, thanks for your time today, man. Appreciate it, sir. Alex, you had dropped some bombs there about language and meaning, and I really see it in the pieces that you do. I'm curious, though, how much of that information comes from being at a place where you have to do the work on yourself? It seems to me the message is resonating with people, and I think a big part of the reason why your message and so many other people's message is resonating is because you've gone through the dark, man. You've sat in the dark. You figured out I can't do this without anything else. And then you found these plant medicines. You found, you know, these different kinds of therapies that were able to do that. Is that something that needs to happen for people to sort of take up this medicine? Is that part is the seeking part of it? Is going through like that whole period a really important thing or a necessary part of creating stuff in this world? Not only that, but understanding the language. We spoke about language and you spoke about the book, The Ethics of Caring. Maybe you can't understand that language until you've really been through something that's so personal and so deep that you don't know how to get out of it. That's maybe. I think what I feel is true is I think that for me, that experience helped me understand how to most accurately like talk as myself right I think like when uh you know that's kind of part of getting out of your own personal maze at least for me is like finding like what it feels like to be like uniquely you right because if you don't like feel that that's a feeling that's for me it's it's really kind of an emotional awareness or an emotional intelligence where you're like you become aware of like what feelings feel like they are from your heart right and and where and where you are coming from and when you're uh when you're saying something and that and that impulse is always to be for me to be precise and detailed with how I communicate that's my uh I get that's how I feel the calling right because I I be and so and so that is when you are precise and unique about that that that just is like particular language that is unique language to you. Right. And I think that there's this, uh, communication stuff, right. Because, um, you have to use, uh, Sometimes jargon exists within industries for a reason, because it's shorthand for things that are otherwise very difficult to communicate. But jargon ceases to be shorthand and becomes a barrier whenever the intended audience shifts from people within the industry to people outside the industry. And I think that within psychedelics, like any other space of knowledge in any other community, it's developed its own lexicon, which is awesome and facilitates just more efficient communication right when you say you know someone held space for me I was sat by this person that all these kinds of things you know exactly what what what they're saying that's awesome but when uh we're when we're attempting to explain what's going on in like this you know whole weird world whatever it is out outside right and if and if we don't I think at least for me, right, if I don't do the work of really trying to find the way I can express it, you know, as me in a way that anyone who hadn't experienced my experiences would understand, Then that just adds that bit of friction, right? That are the kind of deciding points of someone understanding or not understanding, accepting or not accepting, or part of deciding points, right? Choice is always... in the picture, right? But that is what I feel personally that I'm really trying to do, right? And it's very difficult because the language that has been developed, it's been developed for a reason. A lot of it's really good, right? It's like, how do you describe some of the stuff and the feelings that you have in your body and say, but, but using terms like energy and all this kind of like, how do you even describe that when like every, you know, follicle on your body, like in a wave, like, like, and that, that, that's, that's a, that's a description, but it's also really long. Right. So it's, it's like, I, it's, uh, Uh, it makes sense, right. That it's so hard, but, uh, I think, I think one of the strategies that I'm trying to look at is like, okay, what, from a communication standpoint, right. It's like, okay. what language do most people find readily acceptable and why? And something that came to my mind, readily digestible, like they get it, I get it, and why? And something that's come to me as I've thought to this is honestly science. right and why why because um you know this is not true across science but you gotta you gotta give scientists their freaking do right they've done a lot of work to like clearly define what things mean make it concrete attach it to like like causes and effects in the world and like illustrations and all that kind of stuff right the stuff that makes language powerful is that detail is the ability to cause someone to like create a mental image or that a thing related to a thing like that connection is like part of the theater of their own mind, right? Like that is what makes, I think that's a big part of what makes communication powerful is that connection and that connection to reality, right? To known reality, right? And that's what scientists have done and it's amazing, right? And so much of the language around science has that feeling of weight to it because of the work that they have done to create the language that has that level of impact. And it has been used throughout society in other contexts because of that effectiveness. And so that's something like I'm trying to learn from. It doesn't mean just like I take science words and use them, right? But it's also like how can I say this with the same level of discipline? right and focusing on detail that's that like that that is just how that's my theory that's my hypothesis rather my hypothesis of like one way that I I'm hoping to be able to uh create less barriers and bring more people into at least understanding or making their own judgments about what this is about versus making their judgments before they even get to understand what it's about, because there's a bit of a barrier there. Right. And that barrier being just like a set of words that they don't understand yet. And like I said, the development of that stuff makes total sense. It's absolutely a necessary part of any industry, any craft, any community. But when there's a movement to try to create, broaden those horizons, create a bigger community, a bigger conversation, content that resonates across more people, then I think you got to think about things a little differently, right? And from what little I understand, right, and from my perspective, that kind of feels like the place we're in right now, it kind of feels like, yeah, it is time and we can, you know? we've seen we've seen um because because people really really do like care about and there's nothing you know unique about the people within a psychedelic world we're we all are human and we all like want this I'm just gonna say it we always want to connect to what we think is the divine I think yeah I think most people want like the the spiritual and the the cosmic and the and the and the connection to self that are things that happen in psychedelics are like a thing that everyone wants, I think. I think everyone wants it. So if that's the case, right? If this is like a human thing, and everyone wants this, right? Then that's amazing news. That's incredible news, right? That means to be brutally business, the TAM is a hundred percent, right? The total addressable market is everybody. So if that's the case, then what are the barriers to that? And to me, if we both have the same desire, then it's the thing that passes between us. That's a big part of it. That's just packaging. right that's just that's just words and images and all that kind of stuff and uh that doesn't mean um I'm not advocating for like um uh what's the word compromise for, I'm not ever for compromise on values. Cause I think this kind of leads into a whole conversation of like, how do you communicate, um, in a way that's authentic, like in a way that connects and it's authentic, uh, with a connect, sorry, without compromising too much where you feel like you're losing some of your values or you're not like really being true to your own community. Um, that's, that, that, that is part of it. That, that is definitely, uh, uh, a challenge right uh but but I don't know that that's the the main barrier or just the only barrier I'd say the other piece of it is for me like I said something I'm working on is communication piece Man, it's such a, thank you for that. It speaks to the heart of not only communication, but language. And I can't, I gotta think that the evolution of language comes from intention. And I think for a long time, we just have gone down this road of, If the intent of something is to make lots of money, you always get away from the very thing you're trying to do, like a product or a service that is built on the intention of making lots of money. You know, I think it was Steve Jobs in his book. He talked about the reason why large corporations fail when they get so big is because the visionary or the founding understanding of what that product and service is supposed to be like that, that part leaves and it's moved to the sales team. and the only thing that moves the needle is the sales team and so you get this jargon you get these strategies and you get this push towards getting your project service out there and kind of lose the very foundation of what you were doing maybe that's what psychedelics are doing is they're bringing us back to this idea of okay what are you trying to express because that's what's going to connect with people what are your thoughts on that bro so true right so true there's something there's so many things there's so many things we can talk about here okay okay all right this is my thoughts you know so I I think there seems to be largely a rift there's a rift in uh a cultural rift between like the the psychedelic world and the silicon valley world shall we say even though people are a part of both of us they're hand in hand so I i I think there are reasons why because of the kinds of things exactly like you said, right? Like things can get twisted. Pressure can distort you, right? Especially revenue pressure. Revenue pressure can distort you for sure. I mean, all sorts of things can distort you. Yeah, of course. But pressure can distort you. And so I think there... For me, personally, I kind of think they're both cool. I kind of think they're both awesome. The reason why the debt, the true debt that I owe psychedelic experiences, George, is connecting to that purpose within me. Not that it wasn't there before, it's just the signal was quite staticky. And through a lot of psychedelic therapy, through a lot of everyday sit, that signal became a lot stronger. And I owe a great debt of gratitude to psychedelics for that. I really do. And when I meet other people that have had similar experiences and that feel the same way, we're like, hell yeah, brother. Hell yeah, sister. You see it, right? You see it. So I love that aspect of psychedelics very, very much, right? On the other side, business has changed my life in a very positive way. And that's just because I have a propensity to be in my head and in the realm of ideas and ideals. And one of the most wonderful things about business is that to some degree, to no small degree, and maybe more than most things, maybe more than most things, everything has its corruption, maybe more than most things, you kind of have to really solve problems. You kind of really do. There's manipulation, there's lies, yada, yada. But there's also like, how much money do you have in the bank? Yes. And look, we can talk and money has a concept, has all this kind of stuff. But really and truly, there is a groundedness to that, right? And there is a spirituality to the banality and mundanity of business that is kind of incredible. Like when I do a marketing campaign and I look at how many people signed up for a thing, that number of people signed up for a thing. And I could lie about it and try to manage upward, but I will just be unsuccessful, right? I will just be unsuccessful. At least that's been my experience, right? But if I look at it and I'm like, oh shit, I did not do what I wanted to do. I've got to actually do some hard thinking and really try to find the solution. And I've had some of the most incredible experiences of my life, George, have been looking at numbers. right and honestly opening myself up psychologically like okay what's the answer right in that state of openness that makes psychedelics so like incredible right like teaches you this is what it feels I've done this right in bit in doing business stuff right where I'm like what is the answer to this question I'm I'm opening myself up to the answer honestly right and then I find the answer I'm like holy I was just, that was like an active, like true openness. And I like found the answer. And like, this may be a, a, a, a marketing campaign for something that may seem completely ridiculous on the outside. I don't know, but all I can tell you is that has taught me. Honesty and integrity in so many ways. And so, look, can it be polluted? Can it be messed up? Can the pressure? All these things are a hundred percent true. But to be honest with you, that's totally true of psychedelics and spiritual communities as well. Those things can become totally distorted because you can be too much in... uh, in the realm of the psyche and not as much in like the, the, the dirt of stuff. Right. And so for me, there's like this amazing set of skills that people in business have developed. That's essentially like the Navy seals of intellectual rigor where, and also there's an emotional maturity component too, to like being able to freaking hold the line, right? Like, no, I'm going to try to figure out how to make this idea real. And that's incredible, right? I'm not saying I'm great at it. I'm okay at best. But getting from zero to okay has been like, holy shit, that's like a transfer. So I really respect that, right? And this has its pitfalls. And there are people that have spiritual courage, legit, like Stanislaw Grof. That guy is like crazy, right? Like to take that much LSD and not live in a world where really anyone knew what the fuck was going to happen if you surrender to the universe in like a giant LSD. And he was like, yeah, I want to know what happens. Like, brother... What is that? Right. So like, what is that level of like existential courage? I don't know. Maybe I possess it. I hope I do, but I have not discovered that in myself, that level in myself yet. Right. So I have total respect for this too. And I think these two things can work together. They both have their pitfalls. Right. And I kind of see that as like. kind of what's happening and what, you know, like these two things need to work together because I think the psychedelic world and many people in the psychedelic slash spiritual world, there's a lot to be learned from this. I certainly have. And there's a lot to be learned in the purpose, right? The fucking arrow, the arrow of the quiver is here, right? It's in the spirit. You can't find it on a spreadsheet. It's in your spirit, right? It's in your spirit, right? And so that's such a gift here. And I kind of see these things coming together where in the sixties, there was such a corporate versus, and that was maybe a necessary part. It was like a necessary breakup, right? Like these two things couldn't ever possibly figure each other out. Now we're coming around here and some, you know, some founders, they're talking about their whole business journey as if it were a spiritual path. Maybe it is. Yeah. Right. And we're seeing people in the psychedelic world that are just, that have just insane business chops. Right. And are just, I met Amy Emerson yesterday. I met Amy Emerson, the former CEO of Lycos. I shook her hand. Look, I'm a fan boy here, whatever. I listened to her and the rest of the MAPS crew talk. I'll just be honest with you. I was blown away. I was blown away. These guys were like the spiritual ninjas that I, that I feel like that I'm referring to. And that kind of, I, I aspire to be, you can, you can feel it. You could feel their strength and you could feel their groundedness in the shit that they have done because they, they've been to the mountaintop and then they've walked down and they walked up another. And it's like, they, they've been, and you know, like in like meeting Amy, I was like, golly, like listen to her talk. I was like, this woman is such a powerhouse. is so powerful right it's incredible to me and and and I just I have so much respect for that and so much admiration and and um and I'll just say right now and I know I'm talking a lot I'm probably many things it's beautiful man thanks man thank you I just feel like I see there's, you know, online, there is judgment about these things. And fair enough, right? It's like, you know, you guys are yahoos. Like, you guys are just greedy. It's like, fair enough. Fair enough. There aren't completely unjustified criticisms. But That's not all. But that's not all. Right. And I think like, you know, putting them together, you can make something special. It's going to be treacherous. Right. Because when you bring the psychedelic and the spiritual into kind of like the business corporate world. Right. You're going to feel the reckoning pressure. You don't feel the pressure. Right. And you're going to have a sales team. And you're going to learn sales tactics and you're gonna have to decide, right. You're gonna have to decide. And am I going to, what is this sales tactic manipulative or is it no, or is it just persuasive? What is that? Well, what is that? What is that line? And finding that line and being willing to like tread that path, like to me is like the whole point. Like that is maturing, right? I'm trying to push myself to do that all the time. I'm trying to push myself to do it all the time. I can't get around trying to try to like grow the discretion that's required to like really bring stuff into the world. And I'm just gonna make mistakes. And that is terrifying to me, right? Because the mistakes are consequential. And when we think about the psychedelic world, whether it's spiritual, if it's a spiritual thing, if it's a mental health thing, whatever it is, people's kind of spirits are a little bit on the line here. So being willing to tread that path, like to make that call is a little different than that in like accounting software, right? So it's a little different. But hell, if we do, you know, if we really feel that the people that have had these experiences, if we really feel like we're being called to bring this into the world, and what I mean for me is, not about advocacy for me it's more about information but if we feel called to bring this into the world I I feel like that line is unavoidable and we just have to be willing to do it because that's the cost that's the risk rather of doing business uh what I mean is like of doing it man that's it was really well said alex I admire that it there's something to be said about You know, both things are true. Both of these things are true. How do you navigate that space in between them? Maybe that's what's happened in psychedelic science and a psychedelic playhouse and all these sort of community events that are coming up. Is that the same way mycelium formed? It's like, OK, I can work here. I can't. Like, where's the balance and where does the fruit come out from it? it blows my mind to see those things coming together in a way that is necessary. Because if they don't come together, then you just see psychedelics move back into the underground where it's always been, it's always thrived. I don't know, is it possible for psychedelics to be above board? It seems like there's so much that is, you know, like you see it kind of burgeon, the same way a mushroom comes from the ground, all of a sudden this fruit comes up, but then it decays. Is it just a cycle, do you think? Is it possible to have this sort of spiritual medicine above board and stay above board? What does your heart tell you, George? My heart tells me no. My heart tells me that. And here's why. I see it as cycles. And I look back at the sixties and the times before, and I see that the medicine grows underground and it finds the people it needs to find and it helps them. And that comes from the people seeking and desperately looking for it. But when I talk about cycles, I think about a flower like it blooms and it's beautiful and it's fragrant and everyone wants to come and be a part of it. But then You know, we've learned what we can from that flower and it dies. At least the flower stops and it doesn't bloom anymore. And then it goes back underground until the next season when it's really needed. And I see that that's where we are as like a world right now. We need that flower. We need it more than ever. We need to see its beauty. We need to smell its fragrance. We need to be around it to be inspired. But it's not it's not going to be in season forever. And it's going to be the greed and the selfishness. And it's just going to be the humans. You know, I'm not putting it on any on business or the underground, but I'm just saying as human nature, like things like this that change our awareness for long periods of time don't last and they go back. And so I'm not trying to like, shit on the whole thing that's going to happen. Like I want it to happen. I was like, I want it more than ever to be something that's tangible for everybody to get. But I just don't think that's the way the world works. And I don't think it can be for everybody as much as I want everyone in the world of mental health to try this because it worked for me. Like it helped me get through some of the darkest times in my life. And I want other people to get to have that. But I don't think you get to have it without the courage for going and looking for it. And when it's made readily available, all of a sudden you get iboga micro doses at gas stations and you get this for ACOs and these different chemicals that are psilocybin, but not psilocybin. And you get next thing, you know, Art Linkletter's daughter is jumping out of a window, man. Is that too dark of like, I didn't mean to like drop that bomb on it. I see it that way. George, I really appreciate it. And you might be right. And you really might be right. You know, for me, I feel like it's my calling to try, right? To try to do what I can. And I think, you know, but something happens when those cycles happen, right? It's like something happens with those cycles. Like a cycle is not always a return to baseline no it's like spiral upwards can see I can set a new baseline right so so I I think you know um you can feel like it. It can sure as hell feel like it. But if, if my personal experience, personal experiences, like, like one that I had or anything, you know, if, if, if, if, if, if the meta people, if the meta person is anything like the individual, right. Then, then, then, then, then, then we advance and retreat, but it's like two steps forward and one back. And so, you know, then, then if that's true, right, then it's, uh, I'm responsible to do everything I can yeah to to make it bloom yeah like I'm I'm the one and everything I can personally right and I've just started right the I will I I it's so hard to do anything in this world it's kind of insane it totally is it totally is man something that blows my mind is relative to how, how, at least, at least in, in, in this kind of like relatively comfortable, like world that I, that I've, that I've lived in. I mean, had a bunch of stuff, but I don't think I was ever in danger of starving. So like survival, survival and from, from zero to one is like such an insane job to do. Anything is so hard and all that. And I've just begun to, what I feel like is this purposeful journey into this world. Um, and, and all I can say is that I am blown away that people have, I am slabbergasted that people have done this as long as they have done this, like with, with the pressure and the scrutiny and a criticism that they have, right. I, I, that, that blows my mind. Yeah. And they've built things like all the people that have built things in the psychedelic world actually built things. That's heroic shit. Yeah, it really is because you have, you had every reason not to. Um, but you know, something that's cool about nature and something that's cool about, uh, about the way it seems to work is that the, the counterforce proves the force, you know, it's like the, the amount of, of, of resistance and yet it survives, you know, I think it really shows the quality and the spirit of what's underneath. And that's, that's worth celebrating and honoring. And, and I sure, I sure as hell, I sure as hell respect it. Yeah, I don't think you can get the true beauty of building things without that resistance and maybe that's where the spirit comes in because everybody who's whether it's in psychedelics or in business or in relationships like if you don't force that level of resistance where you You lose everything or you have the at least perceived threat of losing everything Then you really don't know what you're capable of and like that brings me back to the idea We spoke about earlier when people hit rock bottom Man, if you're at rock bottom, you have the opportunity to have the biggest character arc ever in your life. But that's where the power comes from. That's where the spirit comes from. When you don't have anything left and you tell yourself, I have everything I need, watch out for that person. Because that person has nothing left to lose and they're going to follow their heart in a way that Someone that has comfort never will and I think that that for me is one thing about psychedelics that it is given to me and so many people I talk to is when you got nothing left you find yourself all alone with yourself. And psychedelics really help you bring out the language of what that means. It helps you understand the awareness around you of like, okay, I've lost my identity, I've lost my relationships, I've lost all these things, but I'm still here. And I think psychedelics makes you okay with that. Where in general society, society tells you you don't have anything. You're nothing. You don't have money. You don't have this. And you get stuck in that negative feedback loop. And we get back to the language of psychedelics and the ethics of caring. And I think that that's where the language comes from on some level, right? Do you feel that same awareness with your relationship with psychedelics and the resistance? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally, totally. And, right? It actually reminds me. I wonder what, Sam Altman, Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI, he says, there's something that I wish I could give young founders that they can't accept their experience. And that is living through an event that should kill your company. It's the same thing, right? It's like, oh, it's going to end. It's going to end. This is it. This is it. This is it. And like the experience of living through that crisis and over and over again, personal, professional, whatever it is, it just, it just gives me a different sense of what's really at risk. I'm not going to die. I'm going to feel like I'm going to die, but I'm not going to die. And I'm made of stuff that I didn't know that I was made of, which I want to ask you a question, George, about, about, about, about psychedelic media. You're quite, your output is incredible. And I don't know, you know, I don't, I can only assume it comes from passion. um and love and so my question to you is like how do you do it how do you you've done this for a while now and you've been like banging the drum and and trying to like connect with all these other people and it's like all this stuff right so like what are what are your lessons how are you doing it where's your motivation coming from what what is your ritual like what's where's it from man It's selfish in some ways. I want more than anything to be a footnote in a positive change in the world. And I've sacrificed my time. I've asked my family to sacrifice. Like the other day, I put out two hundred and forty seven shorts on three platforms in like two days. And it was just it's just nonstop. Like, I want my message to get out there, not for me to be out there, but to highlight all of the beauty that's out there for people that find themselves wrecked because I'm wrecked. I was escorted out by security two years ago as a UPS driver. And I lost everything. In my mind, I lost everything. I lost all my money. I lost my house. I had this podcast thing going. And for me, it is an exercise in what is possible. But it's a huge sacrifice. I sacrifice. I've asked my family to sacrifice. I pick up some jobs here and there. I always look at the Boys and Girls Club. But in my heart, it's almost obsessive for me. Like I have to get out. I want the message to be out there on some level because I believe there's many people like me. And if I can help someone that was like me five years ago get to a better spot, then I feel vindicated for the life that I'm living. So my output is a direct relationship to the brokenness of which I felt. And on some level, the media, the messaging, the conversations that I'm having with people, they're all so therapeutic for me. And if just one person watches my podcast and I get some really cool comments from people that are like, hey, George, thank you. Thank you. I talked to Dr. X, who's a young creator about two years ago. This guy called me up and he's like, I called him back and he's like, George, why are you talking to me? And I'm like, what do you mean? And he's like, you got this cool YouTube channel, man. You talk to all these cool people because I have five subscribers, man. Why on earth would you even take my call? And I talked to this guy for like a couple hours. Now he's a good friend of mine. And he's doing awesome. Like his content is so cool. And I got to help be a part of this person's journey. And like, there's nothing more rewarding than that, than getting to be part of the solution for me. And like, that's why I put out so much content and it's a struggle though, because how much time are you going to put out making content versus with your family? Where do you draw that line? And I can resonate with some of the CEOs that I have that come on that are just obsessive about their business. Like they want it to work in a way that will provide for them and their family. But beyond that, they want their vision to be true. I see that in myself. I see it in your writings, Alex. I see the passion that you put into the walk-in talks or the articles that you put up. And I'm like, oh my God, how long did he have to think about that before he worded it that way? And when I get to talk to you now, I get to be part of this incredible mycelium web of like, oh my God, I understand why you're putting out that message. And the more that I sit and do the podcast, the more that I learn. I feel like this is a better form of education than I've ever gotten in my life. I get to talk directly to the people that I'm fascinated by. And I want to be part of the future where our kids have a better life, where psychedelics can play a role in people's life. And if I can help people source things in an ethical way or in a way that's meaningful, like I'm making real difference in people's lives. And if it's a handful of them, so be it. If it's thousands of them, so be it. That's where my output comes from. It comes from a, from, from loss and sacrifice and a need to, to want the world to be better, man. Does that answer your question? It does. I have another question though. So, but, but, you know, you, you, you, you put all this work into scheduling and creating and networking and whatever. Right. And sort of, you know, a non-zero amount of this doesn't work at all. And a non-zero amount of it that doesn't work at all, like you legitimately like bled for, right? And then I think the thing that stops, that can stop me at least for a moment or like really make me feel like shit is that experience. And to me, what it can feel like is like, know trying to when something that you do is part of your dream and it fails it's different it's different than um than something you that you don't feel like is your dream because it's not like a thing failed it's like you feel yeah totally your your your your deepest calling your heart is being rejected by reality and that's a wild thing And this is one of the things that, you know, I had to think about for a while and feel through a while, right? It was like when I decided to really take one of my first biggest steps to going all in, it was like, if this fails though, right? If I'm never able to get off, you know, you can say this is an illusion or not illusion, whatever. All I'm telling you is it's something that was going through my head, right? If this fails though, right? Then I will know. It kind of feels like my soul failed. My mission failed. I failed myself. I failed at being myself. Right? And that is a constant part of like the unknown. The terror of the unknown that sits in front of you as someone who is trying to live by purpose. Yeah. So my question is, like, how do you experience that and move through that? A lot of psychedelics, I think, is a good way to move through it. But I think you have to change your relationship to what failure is. And what does it mean when you say like, your soul failed or your heart failed. Like, I don't think that's possible. I think that maybe we're part of something bigger. And when you just look at it like winning or failing, like that is, it's too binary of an answer because maybe the win is a pivot. For me in this, like, I didn't know what to expect when I started the podcast. I had no idea. It was just me talking to myself. And then it turned in like every time, Alex, this is the miracle of spirit. Every time I'm like, this is it. I can't do it anymore. A miracle happens. A fucking miracle happens, man. And I can do it longer. Can you tell me about a miracle? Yeah. Yeah. So when I... Let me think about a good one. Okay. So there was a period about a year ago when I almost stopped my podcast. And I'm like, I have to, I got to find a job. I have to bring in money for my family. I'm being totally irresponsible and I'm being selfish and greedy. I got, I have to, maybe I can find another way to do it. And I was working at the boys and girls and I got a job at the boys and girls club. I loved it, man. It was so rewarding. But part of my heart was like, I just, I should be podcasting. I should be getting the message out. Like, and I love doing it. And then my wife got cancer. I quit my job. And I had these really incredible conversations with my wife about like, I had to find like, at that point in time, it was, how do I get my kid to school? How do I care for my wife? And how do I bring in money? My wife had a part-time job. It's like I can't there's no way I can work full-time be at the hospital twice a week Take my kid to school make lunches and do all the things I'm supposed to do as a father do homework Talk to my wife and like I broke down I'm like, this is the fucking worst thing that's ever happened to me and it just keeps getting worse and worse but when that and it's weird to say that my wife getting cancer is a miracle, but because that happened and I've had the most incredible conversations with my wife. Like all these things that I thought were important fell away. And in the meantime, while my daughter's at school for like three, for four hours taking care of my wife, I have like four more hours to do a podcast. And it's like, I have this time. Maybe the world wants, maybe the world is finding a way for me. know and and as as that's coming to a close I just got a call from like I have a court case against ups and I'm like for two years of of wrongful termination in my opinion and I just got a call yesterday like hey we're ready to settle And it's like, okay, you know? And so every time, like, I think I can't do this anymore. Something comes up and I find a way. And I think that that finding a way is the miracle. It's what we talked about earlier about being in despair and being in the dumps and like a miracle happens. Maybe you're the miracle. Maybe I'm the miracle. Maybe the spirit's the miracle, but like, I think that you'll find a way and if that means pivoting from messaging whether it's the alex experience or the true life podcast like I don't think it ever fails I think it changes and morphs and and evolves into something more powerful maybe the podcast turns into doing marketing for uh one of these people that I'm talking to or or helping people build brands you know But the podcast alone has been something that has taught me all about communication and skills. And now I have on my resume, like, the resume of the future, I think, is going to be, what have you built online? And in these few years I've been doing this, it's like, let me show you what I've done online. Let me show you this campaign for the FEET program. Let me tell you how I help people move from addiction into raising money for themselves. Let me reach out to some of my friends like Alex. Let me reach out to these people. Like, I don't think it's failing. I think it's growing. That's a roundabout way. No, no, no. So how do you tell the difference between... You made a really good point. You made a really good point. Earlier, you were like... At least how I was visualizing it was like you saying like, hey, I'm... Zoom out, right? This thing that you spent months on trying to make amazing and it seemed to have no impact, right? is actually part of like this gigantic movement with all these ripples, right? And you could be on the dip and someone else on the wave, but you're all contributing to the motion, right? Like, yeah, that's fair, right? But there's this tension. There's this tension that I think you have to solve as someone who's doing this between like, is what I'm doing... that I feel like that is from my heart with this particular thing, or I'm doing it all the way, do I accept the results as just, or kind of like ignore the results and go with what I feel like is my heart? Or do I pivot because the results tell me that I'm off about what I think is true about the world and what I think is true about myself? Like, where is pivoting compromising on your purpose? And where is pivoting actually in the process of finding it? And that's such a difficult question, I think, to answer, especially if you really feel like you've put your full heart into everything. Because sometimes you're wrong. And it's so hard to find that. Totally. it's it's so hard to find that there was this um and it reminds me of this uh I had this psychedelic experience in which I was like, I was asking myself a question. I was like, how is it that, how is it that, you know, I developed such a trust in MDMA therapy specifically. It had just helped me through so many things at this point. And I was like, and I was really starting to put the pieces together. You know, things came up, I apply in life, things come up and apply in life. Um, but, uh, but, but, but because of that, I kind of began to look at MDMA therapy and my experiences at that as like my one source of truth. And so I asked this question to myself, I was like, look, why didn't you, me, you know, whatever my, the inner wisdom, whatever. I was like, why didn't you tell me about this other piece of advice that I got from like watching some of the YouTube video? I forgot what it was. I got it from elsewhere, but I was like, it would have been really useful. why didn't you, why didn't you tell me? And the response that I got, I thought was a deflection at the time or some kind of, I wasn't really sure how to take it, but this is the response that I got. God is in everything. God is in everything. And so I think, I think, uh, That's where I feel like I am personally. And that's why I think I'm also like, I'm asking you the question I'm asking right now, right? It's like, we always, you know, I think we taught in this world, we can talk about how the truth is inside of us. And that's, I think that's true, right? But the truth is also outside of us. And it's a skill to learn how to find the truth inside. And it's such a skill to learn the truth outside. And I think we can run to one or the other as a place of safety. Like, I know how to find it out here, but then I abandoned myself in here. And I know how to find it here, but I don't know about there. But I think the truth is that you find it by putting them both together, that they're two halves of this equation. And that's how you find your way, at least for me, at least for me, you know? And, and for me, this whole, uh, this whole thing of doing, uh, starting to actually live my purpose is the sense that like, not that I have so much more to grow in here, the sense that the next step in the growth out here is going to come through doing the things out here because I'm going to make mistakes and do stuff. That's going to bring up stuff. That's going to cause me to have all kinds of, um, uh what's the term crisis of faith crisis of faith right and the in the beauty of a crisis of faith is that it's it's it's a filter and it's the means of maturing that's what I think right it's like when you feel like you want to give up then and and and you're able to break through then you realize Then you realize that really all you were doing was changing the model. You just changed the model. Your model was small and you needed to break out. It's a moment of transformation. It's a death. It's a death of the old model. And so it feels like that. It feels like your world is coming to an end because your world is coming to an end and it must come to an end. and and and but it has all that attendant feelings of existential awfulness right because I thought this came from my heart didn't this this vision come from my heart and maybe it did a lot of times it did but it was wrapped in your mind right it was wrapped but it had to be understood and metabolized by your intellect yeah and that and that means there's there's going to be errors and also your heart is providing inspiration, but the actualization in that process is finding what a thing is and finding who, I think, finding who you are, right? So that's me, right? Once again, my own path, the things that I've gone through, but really where I am with this, right? And I find it to be beautiful, man. I find it, it's agonizing to kind of like, to create and try, uh, with all your heart and, and, and feel like, uh, and feel and feel that, uh, and feel that death. Right. But, uh, there's this quote that, um, uh, gosh. Yeah. Give me, give me, give me a second. Give me just a second. Oh, is, is so good. It'll take me. Okay. Oh. Jen Rubite, thank you so much. It's such a beautiful... She says, Alex, thank you so much for shifting the lens on George so we could learn a bit about the behind scenes of the Y. What a brilliant, incredible soul. We're lucky to have him in our tribe. Jen, thank you very much. I'm looking forward to hanging out with you and seeing you soon. Jen's got her own podcast. She's starting up pretty soon. And I can't wait to be a guest on her podcast because I think that her life story encompasses so much of what we've been talking about today. There's so many awesome comments that are coming up as you look for that quote right there. Did you find it over there? All right. I'm going to paraphrase it, bro. Yeah, do it. It goes like this. It's like the person that's truly on the path They have like a chance to like compromise or whatever. Yes. And here's the point. The point is, but this person, the person realizes that it is only through like giving themselves up to destruction over and over again that the indestructible rises from within us. And like exactly what you said earlier, right? It's like it's only through this kind of crisis of crisis that you realize what you're really made of, you know? And that process is, I think for me, as without as it is within. We're here to be broken. And when you can wrap your mind around that, know it makes things easier like I all of us and I can only speak through my lens of experience but I've seen a lot of different traumas from people in my family I've had multiple people in my immediate family try to commit suicide I was had some horrible things happen to me when I was a kid my my son died I lost everything at the age of my wife has cancer And I look back in some of these times and only recently, only when I reached about the age of fifty and with the help of psychedelics, I realized that every time I was broken and shattered and my heart destroyed, I got the opportunity to become a better version of myself. And as I'm getting older, I'm realizing that that's what life is. Life is a series of being broken. so that you can grow to a new state. And the same way we talked about those cycles of the flower blooming or maybe a deciduous tree is a good analogy. It dies. All the leaves fall off and it's sad and the blooms go away and the fragrance goes away. And then all of a sudden it grows taller and there's more leaves and then it dies again. And then it grows again. And that's what we are. I don't think you come into this world. I think you come out of it. And if we can look to nature as our teachers and listen to the plants, what they're telling us and the trees and the birds, you are going to die many times in your life. When will you be okay with it? When will you learn the lessons of dying before you die? For some of us, we never learn. Some of us, you have to be fifty years old before you learn. But what if someone in their forties could do it, or thirties could do it? You know how much more of a fulfilling and purposeful life, all these things you're talking about, Alex, about living purposefully, finding meaning, that is a sign of someone who has died to their older selves. That is someone who's listening to their inner ancestors. The Alex that couldn't do what you're doing now, he's not someone to be shamed, he's someone to be celebrated, because he wanted to do them. The heart that you had before wanted to be where you are now. And now you are. So people should look back at these versions of themselves that maybe they have discussed for and realize they're the only reason that they are who they are now. And that takes away the shame. It takes away the guilt. And you learn the lesson. You're here to be broken. And the more times you break, the better. Because that means you're growing and you're finding ways to become who you're supposed to be. That's the lessons that I have learned in life. And that's what I, if I could share that with more people, man, you're here to be broken. And it's hard. It's painful. There's tears. And the bigger the break, the more opportunity for growth. I can't say it enough, man. That's it. Thank you, George. Thank you for what you just said. Thank you for doing what you do. Thank you for doing what you do, man. You're making me cry over here. I hope you keep doing it. I'll always find a way, man. Fuck yeah. Fuck yeah. I hope you keep doing it, man. Yeah. Yeah. You too, man. And Jen and Kat and everybody on here, man. We're all doing. And here's another thing when you were talking. Who are you to judge what success is? Who are you to judge your actions, Alex? Do you think you know what the big plan is? One person reads your stuff. Ten people. A thousand people. Who cares, man? You are not in a position to judge what your actions are actually doing in the large scope of things. Your words can reach people. The fact is the person you change the most, you'll never know. You'll never know who they are. You'll never know how your words hit them, but your story will hit them You could be an inspiration for some kid halfway across the world man like and that's the bigger picture like that is Understanding purpose and meaning is that you don't get to judge what the purpose is You don't get to judge what the meaning is you follow your heart and you play the role And the message will get out to the people that it needs to get out to I'm like that that's my infatuation with the underground is like You're playing a role. You're doing it right now. I've had some long talks with people. Matt Ritchie and I were talking about stuff. And I was saying some things and he's like, you don't get it, George. You're doing it right now. And that really hit home for me. I'm like, oh, shit. Like, we're doing it right now. All of this going out. So when you start thinking like, well, maybe I'm not living my higher purpose or maybe I need to look at this truth outside of me. I mean, it's not for you to judge. It's not for you to judge or for you to assume you're doing the right thing. Like, are you in alignment with what your higher purpose is telling you? And if that answer is, I believe that I am, then that's it. You're on the path, man. It's easy to get off. It's easy to fall, but it's that inner alignment. It's that idea of like, this feels like I'm doing things right. That is being in alignment with who you are and what your mission should be and what your language should be. What you're seeking is seeking you. And you don't get that. You don't get to judge in this lifetime. You don't get to understand what you've done. Maybe when we go to the next place, then you get to look back and be like, hey, that was pretty cool. Or, hey, that was pretty fucked up. But, you know, we don't get to judge it while we're doing it. You can't see the forest through the tree, right? So, George, how did you find the feeling? Because a lot of people talk about finding their purpose, but not a lot of people have found it. And there's a click there. right there is a connection there that is real because it has to withstand all kinds of just resistance it's wild the resistance so uh how did you find that what was that like right where did it where did it kind of fit into place was it in a psychedelic experience if it was what was the where did it come was it a feeling in the body an image right and then and then how did that like how did you bring that into the world Well, it started by losing everything I loved. I had a relationship with psychedelics recreational when I was younger. But I had a lot of crisis in my life. Like I said, stuff that just ripped me down. And I spent years being depressed and angry and putting on this face of everything's okay and trying to please people. and just trying to find a way to see beauty in the world and then later in life when I rekindled my relationship with psychedelics primarily uh f lad was a huge one for me you know I had done like ten milligrams in less than a year and like It came in crisis and I realized that I was given the medicine after the ordeal and all this shit that didn't make sense to me like my son dying and my wife having fucking cancer and like having conversations about the people you love the most ripped out of your life. That's where you find purpose. That's where it is. And you can't find it anywhere else. It comes with the tragedies of life that try to kill you. That's where you find purpose. When you have nothing left and you tell yourself, I have everything I need, or for me in a psychedelic journey that came to me, you have everything you need, George. You know, I want to cry right now thinking about it. Like, holy shit, I do. I have everything I need, even though I lost everything. Like I didn't need that stuff. These were all crutches. These were all society's tools and society's ideas that were thrust upon me to feel successful, to feel good about myself. And the whole time I was denying who I really am. And that's where purpose comes from. Cause I can draw on these losing the people in my life that I love the most. Like they never leave. They may leave this realm, but they never leave you. And that's where purpose comes from. Purpose and meaningfulness comes from understanding that you have everything that you need, regardless of what you lose. In fact, probably the more you lose, the more purpose you can find. Because it's easy to feel good about yourself when money's rolling in. It's easy to feel good about yourself when your relationship's well. It's easy to feel good about when you have. But what about when you don't have? What about the person that's addicted to fentanyl who's burned every bridge because they've asked for help and they weren't ready? Like these are the people that are finding purpose in their lives and we can learn a lot from them. We can learn a lot from the people that have lost everything. And again, that's my affinity to the underground is that I think the people that are finding these crises is like you went through an ordeal, you went through a huge crisis and that's when you found you. It's coming back to yourself that allows you to find purpose. It's coming back to those things that allow you to move forward in a future that's uncertain because you've been through it. And I really think you have to be broken down and lose the most powerful things out there. Like think about like mythology that we read or stories or even biographies that you read. Like it's the person that loses everything. is the person that finds everything. It's the hero's journey on so many levels. You know the better one? The better one is Cammy's Camel to the Child. If anybody's out there listening and they want to read a really cool myth, read Nietzsche's Camel to the Child. It'll blow your fucking mind. That's what we're here to do. We're here to find out who we are. And you can go through life and compromise your values and give away your integrity for a paycheck. You can do that. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's really hard for me. I had to have it taken away from me because I was too afraid to do it myself I had to have everything taken from me because I wouldn't do it myself And maybe that's part of the lessons of life. Maybe we're we don't have the courage to take these steps or you lose everything So life does it for you? Okay, you're ready. No, I'm not ready. Okay. Yep. I'm taking taking your kid I'm gonna put your wife on the chopping block. How do you feel about that now? What are you gonna do? Like these are the things that life is here to teach us man Can I ask you a question? Yeah, man, what you got? So, word. I agree. But the fear can be, how do I know that this is truly me discovering my purpose? Or is this me discovering a narrative in which I can feel like my life has meaning when I have been unable to find it then I fail to find it the way I ought to find it, right? That I'm just, like, substituting the game for another game. I'm, like, throwing away the game board. I'm like, fuck that game. I don't want that game. I never wanted it. I never wanted to date her anyway, right? That's throwing it away. Yeah. So how do you tell that you really – What you're doing is actually finding your feet in the ground instead of like, you know, in the air in a different air zone. That's not my question to answer, man. That's your question to answer. Oh, baby. Oh, what an answer, George. I mean, I'll tell you. For me, it was, I have so much doubt. I have an insane amount of doubt. Insane, insane. Yeah, brother. Yeah, for real. I have an insane amount of doubt. But it just, and it's just like, I just have to keep proving it to myself through seeing myself from the inside out. Seeing myself from the inside, I'm like, oh, no, I'm actually doing this because I think it's the right thing. And I'm actually willing to bite the bullet on this one. And then seeing it a bunch of times. But that's how I felt that I had begun to answer such questions. yeah there's a cool story like I always read these koans and stuff and there's this story about um this samurai and he grew up in a lineage of samurais and his father was he he was a samurai for the royal family and his sword had been passed down from his grandfather to his father and in the samurai world honor is everything And so this young samurai, he served his time for the royal family and he's aging. And he says, you know, he goes and tells the royal family, like, I need to leave for a little while because I need to find out heaven and hell and the royal family says okay there's a monk that lives you know five days away in this garden and he can help you so the samurai gets on his horse and he tells his family goodbye and he takes his beautiful sword with him because it's part of him and he rides out way out into the hills and on day five he comes up to this cabin and there's this monk back there and he's working on the garden And the samurai walks up to the monk and real respectfully, he's like, oh, your honor, I'm here to find the the true meaning of heaven and hell. And the monk just looks at him and doesn't say anything. And the samurai, he's this respected guy. He's used to getting like he's used to people kind of respecting him a little bit. And the monk says, he just looks at him and waves him off. And the samurai is like, I know your time is valuable, but I've come a long way. And my family has served very honorably. And I'm just, I would love to hear these answers. And the monk looks at him and he goes, you are a brute, killed people, you know, and you're just a horrible person. Your whole family is horrible. And look at what kind of sword you have. Like, what is that? That looks like a piece of garbage that a heathen would make. What kind of a family would generate that piece of junk? What do you stand for? And like the samurai starting to get verbally, he's getting mad at this point in time. And he goes, your whole family, your whole lineage, your stupid sword, your whole way of life is garbage. And everything you stand for is ridiculous. You've lived a life that is purposeless and meaningless. And you are purposeless and meaningless. Samurais are nothing. And the samurai at this point in time is starting to get really pissed off and he loses it. And he grabs the hilt of his sword and he unleashes it a little bit. And the monk looks and he looks at him and goes, behold, the gates of hell. And the samurai realizes that his rage and his anger and his animosity towards wanting to kill this monk for talking about his family is the gates of hell. And so he takes a sword and he puts it back in the sheath. And the monk says, behold, the gates of the gates of heaven. Like it's the forgiveness that for yourself. That is the gates of heaven. It's the no understanding that everything that you went through and forgiving yourself, that's salvation. And it's the animosity, the anger, like, how dare you talk to me this way? Do you know who I am? All of these judgments, all of these things, like that's the gates of hell. And so we all have that in us. I bring up that story because I run through that all the time. Anytime I get triggered, I get set off. I'm like, oh, this isn't me. This is a part of me that's offended by something silly of someone else's small mindedness or someone else's judgments or my judgments myself. Like that's where we find purpose, too, is understanding who we are and that maybe we're not our thoughts, but we are the person listening. That's been very helpful for me in my life is to understand that you're not what are the gates of hell and what are the gates of heaven and are you the person that you think you are are you the person observing that's been instrumental and I think it can help a lot of people just to be the observer but it's a cool story I always try to tell that one and think about it to myself well it's uh you know what what I thought you're gonna say george um with this was uh was also um kind of an answer to my question right of um like how how do you deal with like how how do you answer that question and I and I and I think you know what I was wondering the santa samurai was going to do was to figure out that all he needed to do was just stand there because standing there is the answer to the question like to to like if your inner doubts are coming and like are you doing this only for this and that reason are you just this blah blah blah blah but you just stay that part of you sees yeah maybe that's the answer that part of you state like maybe you stand Maybe that's the most profound answer. You stand consequences, whatever they are, like you're still here and you're still standing face in the flame. Maybe you stand, you stand on what you believe in. Maybe that's enough. That's what it feels like. It reminds me of a dream that I had where it was talking about a relationship that I had and accepting the grace of being gifted something like that in my life. And I was like, well, how do you accept? I have some weirdo dreams, bro. I love it. weirdo, liminal, like half asleep, half awake. My brain's just like spending all this stuff. But it was such a cool experience because it was like, you know, it's like, how do I accept this? Right. And it was just like, you stay, you stay, you know? And I wonder if that's because like to, to argue with our thoughts or argue with our doubts or to argue with external doubts or whatever it is, um, is to, uh, is to operate in the air. But what you want to find out is if, are you the mountain, right? Like you don't want to know, you don't want to figure out if you're a cloud, if you're a cloud, that's not the question. The question is, are you the mountain? And what does a mountain do? A mountain fucking stays, baby. A mountain just is, it is what it is. Right. And, uh, and yeah, and that's, and that's, and that's, uh, that feels true to me, man. That feels true to me. And it's definitely something that I've learned. Learned is a big word. It's definitely something that I am learning. I've learned it through the therapy that I've gone through and I've learned it through life for sure. Yeah, man. I think it's beautiful. I think it's standing. And look, sometimes you're going to be wrong. But experience is what you get when you don't get what you want. right yeah yeah man you got it you got it dude thank you uh yeah thank you man yeah I really really appreciate it I hope uh uh yeah I really appreciate it man I really do me too I'm looking forward to seeing you and uh I'm looking forward to seeing so many people uh I've been um I've been a fan from afar for quite some time, and it's going to be fun to get in and experience Man, I can't wait. Shout out to Psychedelic Playhouse. They got a bunch of cool events coming up. Bogus Saves is coming up. I can't wait to be over there. I can't wait to give you a hug and see so many of the people that we have both spoken with and just kind of get to tell some stories, man, and hang out and see what transpires. There's so many great people at the event and there's so much going on that it's really exciting. And if people want to get involved, now is the time. There's no real barrier to entry for for what we're doing. Maybe this event there is, but there's no barrier to entry to get involved and volunteer and be part of something bigger than yourself. I hope everybody chooses to do that. So where can people find you, Alex? I know you got a jam out here. Where can people find you? What do you got coming up? What are you excited about? Great, great, great question. So I do almost all of my writing and other stuff on LinkedIn, but the podcast, so just Alex Detmering, at LinkedIn. Search Alex. We're going to search for our LinkedIn. That's not the URL. You can also check out what we do, the foundation that I've started in the publication, Secret Worldness, that is out. which is a podcast where all we do is we try to go as deep as we possibly can into people's psychedelic therapy experiences and all the connected experiences of life. The goal is for them to, man, just speak it share their kernel of truth the goal is to get them to share their kernel of truth and to help them do that and that's uh and that's that uh that usually if you want to follow that uh then um uh follow up subscribe to our substack that's parablefoundation.substack.com Please check it out. I'm working with Jack and the Psychedelic Playhouse people and Cesar and Mary and all these people on a panel coming up at the Psychedelic Playhouse. Those guys are doing amazing stuff. The panel is on Wednesday. june eighteenth it's at seven thirty it's at um the jonas brothers building but it's part it's night two of the psychedelic plus I'm pretty sure jack dropped it in but if you guys want to uh want to check it out uh please do it's all about uh bringing uh psychedelic media into the mainstream once more that's that's the whole topic of it and I'm going to be moderating it and asking people to know a lot more than I do uh what their opinions are I'm very excited about that because I'm going to ask a ton of questions because I want to know the answer. So that's pretty much it. But if anyone's still here, thank you for listening and honoring us with your presence. It's been a pleasure. Yep. Thank you to everybody. Go check out Alex and all the stuff he's doing. I think you're brilliant at it. I love the way you communicate and I can't wait to see you, my friend. Hang on briefly afterwards to everybody else. Have a beautiful day. That's all we got. Aloha.