Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back. This episode I have titled The Medicine Has Teeth with Jennifer Zuckerman and Stephanie Carzon. They are not healers. They are system sabotaging, pharmaceutically disobedient shadow surgeons disguised as women who came not to integrate with the machine, but to lovingly dismantle it from the inside. Jennifer Zuckerman walks like she remembers the burning temples of medicine. And she's here with a torch and a playlist. White coat, gone. Now it's tinctures, trauma maps, and prescription pad arson. She doesn't taper meds. She liberates identities wrapped in childproof caps. She's the bridge between clinical protocol and cosmic remembrance, reminding you that healing isn't sterile. It's wild. It's erotic. It's terrifying and sacred. She doesn't treat patients. She resurrects forgotten gods buried under a decade of SSRIs. And then there's Stephanie Carzon, clinical neuropharmacologist and operational hit woman for the new paradigm. She's the kind of woman who can turn an Excel sheet into an occult artifact, a protocol into a prophecy, and a strategy session into a reality distortion field where logic and magic shake hands and start a band. She's part oracle, part hacker, part psychedelic system saboteur. Her workflows breathe, her molecules plot. You don't hire Stephanie to fix things. You summon her when it's time to burn down the lie of efficiency and replace it with the sacred recursion, intuitive intelligence, and bioluminescent logistics. Ladies, thank you so much for being here today. How are you? Thank you. Wow. I love it. Best intro I ever got. Yeah. This is fun. Yeah. That's what we strive for here. Yeah. I'm so glad to be here. So I figured I could just kind of jump into a question. We got a bunch of questions that are kind of stacking up from the chat. And I think that your background will kind of flesh out as we get to these questions. And so the first question that we have coming in is from, who is this coming from? This one's coming to us from Desiree Palm desert. She says tapering off pharmaceuticals. I'm sorry. She says, what if each pharmaceutical, what if each pharmaceutical a person is on acts like a spiritual lock? And that's kind of a big question, but what are your girl's thoughts on that? I'll start with you, Stephanie. Go ahead. What can you repeat the question? Yes. The question is what if each pharmaceutical a person is on acts like a spiritual lock? It can. OK, I can. OK, so here's my position. Let's start here. So I'm a neuropharmacologist. I obviously trained in Western medicine and then with time became more and more interested in alternatives, plants, et cetera, psychedelics. And I believe that to each his own. I believe that pharmaceuticals have their place for a lot of people and can help a lot of people. But I do think that we're limited in many, many areas. I do think that we deserve the right to try other medicines. I think that there are many people who are out of options and regular pharmaceuticals are not working for them. And this is something that both Jen and I do is we're trying to push for more education, advocacy and access. and for many people yeah pharmaceuticals are the lock to the spirit you know for a lot of people it's not only is it not working for them but it burdens them it um limits them from experiencing their life to the fullest. And so by working with people, not just directly in a clinical way, but also advancing research, I guess our mutual goals here are to expand access to other medicines. The beautiful thing about plant medicine that pharmaceuticals do not seem to do is unlock the ability to expand one's consciousness. So we're not replacing one pharmaceutical with a plant or psychedelic pharmaceutical. We are, you know, substituting here for something that is going to also heal not only your body, but also your mind and your spirit. And this is something that Western pharmaceuticals cannot do. Yeah. And so when you're talking about holistic integrative care, body, mind, and spirit medicine, I think we have this amazing opportunity and we are reminded that these medicines can do all of that because people have known this for so long and we forgot. A lot of us have forgotten that these are the originals. Yeah. I mean, I share the same sentiments as Steph. I also believe there's a time and a space in place for different pharmaceuticals for certain individuals at different times and grateful that we have all these options of healing and whatever modality is right fit for that person and their I always say their own personal algorithm right and so we're not here to bastardize pharmaceuticals they can be utilized as adjuncts and I am here to also be a bridge from the spiritual and the science and to guide people as they taper off meds. And as they taper off of certain medications, especially antidepressants and anti-anxiety meds, then as they start to go away, their personalities start to show up in a different way. There is a little bit of a learning curve for the body to remember again and for the mind and body to be in sync and to trust oneself and I always say when somebody's tapering that we'll go through a few sticky days every dose drop and it's in those days that we get to be kinder to ourselves and lean in and we have these tools like microdosing um microdosing psilocybin microdosing kana different other supplements that can help us as our bodies are regulating. So we have this toolbox that we start to formulate and we get to begin relationships in other ways with other plant medicines and other supplements and allies that we can have as our pharmaceuticals go away and our bodies start to readjust and we get to lean in and know ourselves even more because we'll be that much more expanded out as these locks are unlocked. Yeah, it's it's well said and I I love the word remembering it has like when you just think about that word Like sometimes you think about something that you did or you're going you might want to do But I also like the definition of it like you're remembering like you're putting back together That which is inside you and it seems to me we're in this weird sort of like area where science and spirituality are remembering that they're one of the same things there. Each of you have a unique experience. And I'm wondering, maybe I can start with you, Stephanie. What was it about remembering that brought you over to sort of the plant medicine side of it versus where you were at? When I was younger, I remember leaning very very much into my intuition and I think that you know once you get into like higher education and higher learning it's like there's no more space your intuition it's like Get out. Learn this. Memorize this. And so I recall this period when I was doing my graduate degree and I was doing research fellowships where all of my energy was so geared to getting my diploma and then getting the job and then doing the thing. And there was this period where I wasn't remembering my creativity. I wasn't remembering my intuitive powers. As a child, I remember being so intuitive, so connected to some other realm, right? And then in the midst of becoming a scientist everything kind of moved to the wayside and there was a forgetting mostly because there was no space for it and my brain was just on this one track and Once I finished all of that and joined the workforce, I think it propagated for a little bit. But then when plant medicines and psychedelics entered my life, that's when the remembering started to happen. I recall the thread, the line of communication with my intuition resurfaced and reemerged. I dropped into, I guess, conscious and subconscious spaces that I had not dropped into in a really long time. Pieces started to come together from childhood, from other important periods of my life, and everything started to fall back into place. And they were reminders of who I once was mixed with who I am today. And it was this big aha moment. And these moments continue to resurface every time I sit with a plant You know, and I have an experience. And even when I don't just in everyday life, the integration is just perpetual. You know, like it's it is it's like I could be in the middle of like writing an email. And then there's like this this thought that just like, you know, like comes into my head. into my field and it's always a remembering, it's always this recall, this retether. And so when I was shifting my career because I worked in hospital setting, I worked for Johnson and Johnson corporate health care and medical device for six years. When I decided to shift away from that and enter this space, And it was part because I had my own experiences and I was very, very much inspired. But it was also part of a remembering of who I was before school, before, you know, you have to graduate and become a scientist. And so it was it was inspiring to me. And Jen said it was inspiring to me to bridge the science with with the spirit. And I mean, that's like the short form, I guess, version of this story. But in essence, that's kind of how it all happened. Yeah. It's beautiful. Jen, what do you think? What are your thoughts on that? I remembering, I think, well, as children, we all come in, we're very intuitive beings. And we, depending on where we land and the family dynamics and the units that we find ourselves amongst, we are, taught not as much to foster those intuitive gifts, but we start to close them off, especially if we're with families that reflect back that it's do as I say, do this. This is the way it's supposed to look. And no, no, no, don't trust that. Not even the word trust your intuition comes into play. I think now we're at a place collectively where we speak this way and it's more accepted. And I say that the children that are coming in now are just like on this really fast track to whatever they're here to serve and share in their gifts. Like I just say, keep the roadblocks up so they don't veer off the track too far and let them just go and shine. Where I think that the earlier generations had a bit more to process and overcome to come back to this awareness that we do trust our intuition. I trust myself the most. And that's what I teach and work with people that your intuitive being in nature and everything that is for you is right, is the best. You cannot do any wrong. Can you make a choice that maybe doesn't have the outcome that is the most desired until you figure out what those messaging systems are and how they're coming in and you're whatever you want to call them, your guides, your nature is our other guide. She talks with us all the time, like paying attention to the universal pings that are like, oh yeah, if I'm speaking and I get a bing in agreement with the universe, I know that I'm like, continue on, like we're on the right path. Those are little things that we can foster now. I didn't let go of my intuition as much. I think I fought the system a bit more to say like, no, this isn't what I believe in my mind. core nature. And that showed up in my early childhood and my teens questioning, definitely being reprimanded for questioning authority because it didn't make sense. And then going into like the educational system and again, just like doing it to get through it and then deciding to go into nursing. And because I care and because I felt like this intuition of medicine practice whatever that meant but then you start to forget because you get put in these cohorts amongst people that and also there's this competitive nature too so you're like well this person is speaking by the book and they're writing this paper or they're published and there's this and they have all this information that they're sharing that they're being you know acclimate you know having applause for and they have accolades and So it's finding your path. And I was in private practice and I was seeing patients like twenty five average a day. And I started to channel intuitive things and some people it landed well and other times it didn't. And I would get an interesting backlash of people when they weren't ready. If I'm like, OK, if something's continuing to happen on your right side, like what's going on in your masculine? And I was speaking this language in private practice. And then I was like, oh, like square peg round hole. Let's figure this out. plant medicine showed up in my life again and because I had a recreational side and I took a long break and it showed up for me and I was like wait a minute I can like utilize these tools not only for myself but to support others in their processing and to start to hear themselves again and so I think that is the process of remembering it's just it's always there it's just tapping back in and then honing in and strengthening it because it just becomes stronger over time I love it I love this sort of Ariadne thread that runs through so many people I talk to, and it's this thread of rebellion. On some level, it's standing up to the authority or standing up to the institution that tells you this is who you have to be to be successful. You've got to have this car. You have to have this relationship. And so much of that allows us to lose trust in ourselves. We start undermining ourselves with negative self-talk or maybe I'm not. It seems to me that that's... That's where so much of the mental illness comes in. Like, the whole DSM comes in and gives you this label about who you are, what you should be, and now you have this identity out there. But it sounds to me like both of you have found a way to remember who you are and to navigate in this world. What are your thoughts on the relationship between rebellion and finding trust in who you are? Oh, my gosh. Rebellion, I mean... We have, Jen and I share this. Okay. That's here. We totally share this because I've always, I've always been like a good, I was always a good kid, but like, oh my God, do not say no to me. What? Why? Like the top back, you know, I would always want the last word. So it's been a part of my personality. And, um, you know of course it could there's a balance right so like it could it could bite you in the ass when when you're a kid it could bite you in the ass when you're an adult as well but so it's like part of the learning is when to accept no and when not to accept no when to push against the the boundary or the envelope and when to sit back and listen and wait your turn and I think that that comes with life experience um And I think I've learned those lessons. I think I continue to learn those lessons. But I think, you know, forging a new path in general, you know, whether it's in an industry or it's in your career or it's just in your your human experience is an act of rebellion to say, I'm not going to go down the road that everyone follows or I'm going to make something new out of nothing. I'm going to catalyze a movement. I'm going to be I want a seat at the table at this new movement, all of that. It's an act of rebellion. And I think it takes courage, but first and foremost, it takes knowing oneself really, really well. And of course you can take a plant medicine, a psychedelic, and you can sit with it and you could wait to hear what it has to say to you. But for me, it always comes down to ritual and I don't need a substance for a ritual. And I certainly don't need a substance to sit with myself and reflect and go inward. having experiences with these plants has taught me how to do that without them as well right and talking about you know like fostering your inner intuition um sometimes the voice inside says just just sit with yourself just you know take thirty minutes and sit on the ground and you know close your eyes and see what comes and other times the messages you know maybe a plant would be more um you know, useful. Um, but this entire movement, this, this reemergence resurgence around, um, plant medicines and psychedelics and healthcare is an act of rebellion because these systems have been in place for years and have made no space for any kind of alternative way. Um, to the point where like the people who hold the knowledge are physicians, our practitioners, they don't even have the time or the space to investigate. And something that Jen and I both do is educate. And we want to bring this knowledge to the practitioners that maybe don't have the time to go learn this. We want to put it right in front of them and say, look at this research paper, use this research, use this data to shift your practice, or at least the to be informed so that when a patient or a client comes to you and says, what about psilocybin? What about this medicine? Can it help me? You don't say, oh, I don't know anything about that. You're their only point of reliable information. It's your responsibility to know, but you are locked in a system that doesn't allow you to know because you have fifteen minutes with every patient. You got a hundred patients a day. So if we can be a bridge, you know, I don't I don't see patients directly, but I'm a clinical director at a clinic and I see patients that way. But if I can be a bridge between the practitioners and the data, then I feel like I'm I'm I guess I'm fulfilling my my dharma in a sense, because I do have the time to invest because I chose to invest. I chose to rebel against the system, but I also chose to live within the system. Being on the inside and working your way around it to expand it, to grow it, I think is the way. You can't just push back on everything. And so going back to what I was saying, as a child, I pushed back, right? And I lacked the maturity and the life experience to know when to push, when not to push. But now I realize that it's not so much about pushing back. It's about getting on the inside, getting on the same level and working the system from, from the inside, from the inside out. Right. And I think fortunately, because I was trained in like a Western medical field, I can speak the language and I can, you know, walk the walk, talk the talk, and then, you know, use all of the lessons and the beautiful knowledge that I'm gaining along the way to, to make significant change and impact people's lives in that way. love it that's beautiful jen rebellion what let's hear a story oh man so many but I like steph I think it's it's an art and you come to a place of like okay I'm I'm still gonna I'm speaking my truth I know I might be putting myself out there and it might uh yield resistance until it doesn't and so now it's like okay how can we artfully strategize and like work it from the inside and change in a way which means to be in more observation mode hold the words a little longer, allow more information to come in because then you can still like present in a way that maybe will be heard better than when you come out of the gate and like shut down someone else because you feel so empowered and you're on your soapbox because then people are like, I don't want to listen to that. Like I'm going to close up. But instead there's a saying, if you whisper it, it brings someone closer to hear you. So speaking lighter and in a way that is, it brings that gravitational force towards you. I think is something that I've definitely learned and honed in on and learning every day, never perfect. And I think just, as an entrepreneur and having my own practice and learning and collaborating with others, I've had to learn to like speak less, say less and receive more. And then when you do have a formulated thought that you can come in and it's that much more effective. So I think that, but my younger years and not that long ago, I was very much like, Like, don't tell me no. And if you tell, well, no is my, like, if you say no, I'm going to, well, watch me. Like, it fuels me. And now I'm like, well, now I've learned all about boundaries and speaking our boundaries. And I'm like, okay, if somebody says no, maybe it's really a no. Let's be polite and let's get it to a yes. If it's really something that I feel is for the greatest good and why we're here. But yeah, if I had wisdom to share with my younger self is just, you can still be spunky and speak out and you just be a little bit more strategic. Just as you're reigning your own kingdom of self, you get to learn what that means. And I could have learned a little earlier, but here we are. And I'm grateful for this moment. Yeah. Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want. Right? And it's so valuable. I got a brilliant question coming in here. It's about estrogen. And it says, let me see who it's coming from. This one's coming from Amara. And she says, could estrogen be nature's original psychedelic? And I think she's talking to the different states in which estrogen puts people into. It's sort of psychedelic in a way. I appreciate the question. It's so interesting because Well, and then it's like, okay, yes, in its nature, I'm going to speak to it just because I find this question really fun. When you're on your, you know, having a cyclical experience, you feel like you can be on a roller coaster at times with your estrogen spikes and dips. So in a way it is like, it is a journey, whether, and speaking of someone in a menstruation cycle, let's say it's a there's going to be two points in which there's these peaks and drops. And also I believe learning to speak the language and self to self coach, like, okay, like I know in these days on my cycle, I might be a bit more agitated or irritable or labile. And what can I do and be kind and not like take the, like drown the ship because I'm feeling a little bit more emotional, not as buoyant as I always am. And I think that's also important. coaching yourself and as a guide so in that way I can see it as a psychedelic experience but yeah I do believe it has like it likens to that and it can even magnetize to a person into psychosis potentially and if you look at PMDD that's a whole nother place in which hormones are taking the wheel and someone doesn't feel like they have all their scruples Yeah, your cycle is not a curse is what I like to say. I think your cycle is your superpower because like Jen is speaking, there's a rhythm and it's a blueprint and it's a blueprint for your creativity, your resilience and your renewal. And I think we have to honor it and we have to stop working against it. But part of honoring it, again, it always goes back to like holding up the mirror and taking the time to invest in learning oneself and tracking our cycles and being very intentional with noticing how we feel and when. And I think that once we start doing that, then we kind of move into this this way of like deep, deep alignment, estrogen is a neuromodulator. So it can alter your perception. It modulates your sensory processing, your emotional resonance, and even your cognitive patterns to the point that when women go through perimenopause and eventually we go through menopause, there is a very, very noticeable period where women experience brain fog and that's due to the dip in estrogen. Before that, though, like during high estrogen phases like ovulation, women can experience heightened creativity and emotional sensitivity. They can feel more socially attuned and I think that this presents a really interesting opportunity for psychedelics because serotonin and estrogen are very much linked. So your classic psychedelics like LSD, mescaline, psilocybin, ayahuasca, These all play on your certain energy system, and it is the most influential system for a woman. OK, and so there's a relationship here between estrogen and serotonin, meaning that depending on where you are in your cycle, not only can you feel the psychedelic more deeply, but it could also change the outcomes of that experience. um so not just how the psychedelic feels but how the psychedelic may heal because they even they even published I say they researchers published some research I think it was last year or the beginning of this year that showed that the intensity of your psychedelic experience will affect your clinical outcome um so there's so much opportunity here and estrogen also is a gateway to transformation think about just like the menstrual cycle pregnancy it creates like these shifting internal landscapes. So I think that, yeah, whoever asked that question is brilliant and it's very intuitive and I'm sure she has paid very close attention to how she feels throughout her cycles. And I encourage women everywhere to, you know, not get overwhelmed by the shifts in their cycle, even though sometimes it can be very overwhelming, but try to ground yourself in noticing and journaling and yeah, make that relationship, that bond with yourself a lot stronger and use your cycle as your superpower. Yeah, I think, and I would like to add, there's so much noise coming out in data, thankfully, but with all the access to social media and the influence that that can have, there's a lot of chatter with women in different places of their cycle, especially perimenopause and menopause. And sometimes that can be really invasive into attuning to what our body and mind is really feeling. And is it like, oh, am I having lack of sleep because I'm dipping in my, you know, do I need progesterone because I'm not sleeping well? Well, maybe. And also, let's give it a little bit more space and and come in more neutrality when we're reading or listening to data that's coming out from different individuals. So it's not a scare tactic that's coming in, but we're utilizing it for more information. and to know when to just like quiet it and allow our body to speak to us over anything else. Yeah, I love those answers. And thank you, Amara, for asking the question. Sometimes in this conversation makes me think, sometimes I feel like medicine has gotten so specialized, like so deep into the woods that we've just forgotten that maybe it's okay. You know, what did we do before we had all these clinical tests, before we had all those things? Are we forgetting something? And is psychedelics helping us to remember that maybe everything is okay? What are your thoughts? So I appreciate having all these access points and data points where we can look at our levels and see what is reflected back to us. And that said, I also think that there's so much data that is received that we can share without those markers. And I actually also think that sometimes having those markers potentially could be a hindrance in someone's healing process if they're fixated on numbers, because also there are like outliers of what the normal ranges are and what your normal is could be different and different, like reflected in a different way. So I think it's a yes and that can be helpful. And I also believe that we have so much that we're attuned to and that accessing that we can do so much with nature and what's like herbs supplements and how our body's feeling and and reporting that data and trusting that we're we're okay like I know as a provider I'm questioning myself like oh I haven't had my labs checked it's probably been like a year and a half and I'm gonna do that but I'm like okay but I know everything is fine and then I'm like don't be stupid jen like you could have something wrong you should look and you know and same with like I you know a mammogram I recommend every you know depending on the person however many years and I'm like I'm going to push one more year. I feel okay about it. Or if I don't get there in six months, I'm okay. I'm doing self-check. I trust if something's off. And again, I don't want to ever gaslight myself and I'm in my brain all the time. I believe that I'm well and so I am well. And then I'm also like the provider in me that's been trained to look for discrepancy is like, oh, is something wrong and you're not paying attention? You better go get that looked at just in case. So I think we get a lot without having those markers and they can be a hindrance and I'm grateful for them in case something really is off that we have data points and to watch fluctuations. So that's my answer. Yeah. Stephanie, what would you add to that? Yeah, I think I agree. It's a balance, you know, like too much data is way overwhelming. But I have an appreciation, I think, for where we've taken modern medicine. I mean, it's freaking incredible. People are living longer. People are living healthier because there's an awareness about what is important. And I think that the trick here, the art, is to fade out all the noise and say, OK, I might not need to know all about this marker, or I don't need the panel that has um six hundred different tests but there are basics that I need to know and I always say that like simplicity is key if you're doing the basics you're doing amazing right and if you want to invest more time and learning more about your body by all means but it's like don't go down the rabbit the rabbit hole you know too too deeply because then I think it can it could be counterproductive and it could be more harmful you know the perfect example is fitness and eating healthy. Being fit and eating well, amazing. Then you start to get into these realms where maybe now you're measuring your food and now you're being a little bit obsessive about how many bell peppers you ate last Tuesday. and I speak I say that because I once did bodybuilding you know I've always been an athlete and I was like this is a cool challenge let me do it I never stepped on stage but I followed the whole regiment and I was measuring my food because the only way I could get really precise with everything was if I measured but then that became you know an obsession and I had to let that go really quickly and I had to go back to my intuition so this is full circle I had to go back to eating more intuitively and I had to learn that and I had to let go of all of the data points and the macros and the percentage body fat. So I think that's the perfect analogy. I think you can live well, eat healthy, be healthy, and you can also still be super interested in how the body works and all of the modern innovations and functional medicine and genetic medicine, but just don't let it drive you crazy. and the same thing applies to psychedelics you know it's like you don't need to sit with plant medicine every week but it's a slippery slope it's a slippery slope I certainly encounter people who take it to an obsession and now it's like you become addicted to healing but you're not you're not healing anymore you're actually could actually be doing yourself some harm so I guess moderation That's what they say. Yeah, I think that that's one of the questions science always ask is, how do you manage what you can't measure? And then we get back onto that other slippery slope of like, well, what about the tears of my loved one who's been depressed and now that I see them? It's interesting. But you brought up fitness over here and we have Betsy. Betsy's coming to us from Oceanside, California. Betsy, you're awesome. She's got a gym called House of Fitness. If you want to go check it out, if you're down there, check out House of Fitness. She says, what's something your body knew before you did? Thank you, Betsy. It's a brilliant question. That's a great question. People are asking great questions. I told you I got the best audience in the world. Yeah. Something that my body knew before I did. It's so hard because the body and the mind are like connected, right? So it's like, okay, wait, wait, I'm kind of stumped right now. Okay. Maybe it's a little general and maybe as we keep talking, something will, will come more specific will come to mind. But my, my body knows when, when, when like a relationship or like a partnership is out of alignment. Okay. There's like, When my body will tell me to be discerning, like there might be red flags that my brain is not acknowledging, but usually there's like this tightness in my solar plexus. And I tend to write a lot about the solar plexus because for me, it's like it's such an intuitive guide. But I get this like tightness, this like this bodily like tightness sensation in that area. where it feels like, oh, like this, there's something not right, like I shouldn't be doing this or I don't want to be doing this. And then it takes some time for my head to catch up. But with time, I've learned to tune into that. way earlier and not say, you know, no, I should just keep going and try to like rationalize a situation or even rationalize a person. I like to see the good in people. I like to believe in people, but I also like to believe in myself. And so sometimes what happens is if I'm in partnership for like business with someone, I'll say, it's okay. Like I got this, so it'll be fine. But if the other person that you're in partnership with is not in alignment, it doesn't matter how solid you are. you know, like the whole team needs to be solid. One plus one equals three. Yeah. So I think that's, I think that's what it is at the end of the day for me. It's, it's like when someone feels out of alignment, it could, my body knows, sends a message to my brain and my brain might deny it for a little while before being like, okay, okay, okay, okay. We're going to listen. Yeah. I think through the evolution of self it's these little whispers that I hear now before their screams which are things that happen to the body that is like you have no choice but to pause and to like pay attention so I prefer it to be a stubbing of the toe pay attention than like god breaking a limb paying attention right like there's different things that show up and energetic the body is also this energetic vessel so when something is out of alignment again, you can get little hints that you pay attention to well before. If your lack of sleep, you're pushing yourself too hard, I'd rather like pay attention to these little whispers if I feel fatigued and then get sick and have, although that said, if I ever have a cold, which doesn't happen often, I use it as a cleanse. I call it a cleanse. It's a clearing of energy. So if you're in a large group of people and you go home and you downregulate and then you have some like you know, viral presentation of something, usually you're clearing out a lot of energy as well. And when you embrace it like that, it moves a lot quicker, it's a lot easier to be with because it's self. And so you're like, okay, this is just a clearing or a cleansing. I'm moving through it instead of holding on and be like, oh my God, what's wrong with me? My immune system's out of whack. Something's totally... I better take more vitamin... Well, you can always take more vitamin C, but I better do this. I'm not doing this. Oh, I had too much to drink at this conference or whatever. Just give yourself a moment to recalibrate and don't... dig too deeply. And again, unless it's a shout and you have no choice, but sometimes the universe is going to stop you and make you rest no matter what. So it's nice to just pay attention to those soft little voices before it gets too loud. I have some more. Wait, I just thought of some, like, more weird ones. Yeah, let's hear what you got. I'm fatigued and stressed and start, like, my nervous system is starting to feel on overdrive. I get this, like, frazzly feeling in this area in my, like, eyes and my vision. If my voice starts to go, it also means that I'm stressed and fatigued. And it's not going because I have strep throat or laryngitis or, like, I spoke too loudly or I spoke too much. It just starts to go. And... I've only lost my voice like a handful of times or less in my entire life. But there was a moment in the last two years where like I lost it like two, two, twice in a row. And it was a, I had to wonder, you know, did I come in contact with someone that was sick? And then I realized, no, no, no, you're pushing yourself too hard. You're, you're fatigued. And, um, And there's some other like weird things. Like, do you guys ever feel like your skin gets sensitive when you're about to get sick? There's like little, your body's talking to you, I guess. My body's always talking. Yeah. My scalp actually. Your scalp? It's very sensitive. Yeah. So interesting. Yeah. You got to speak the language of the body. And I think the only way to learn it is to listen. Yeah. The body keeps the score. It's a great book. Clint Kyle's coming on here. Clint Kyle's the psychedelic Christian podcast. He's got a brilliant podcast. Thank you, Clint, for being here. He says the female cycle has become overly medicalized and kind of pathologized, right? Totally unnatural. Any thoughts on that? Interestingly, I feel that more attention gets to be paid in the assessment process of a female, um, whether whatever medical treatment they're seeking or even prior to a psychedelic experience or through therapeutic, their mental health therapeutic side of things. I think that those questions about how is your cycle, how's it presenting to you? What are your symptoms like? Those are questions I think get to get asked more frequently. And that's what Steph and I, um, speak about. So I, I think it's a yes, Ann, because I see that there's this like hold on perimenopause and like women are hitting perimenopause at a much earlier age, which is also due to environmental stressors and pressures that are being put on the body as well. And other things that we have access to that we didn't, you know, however long ago. And now we have the data points to be able to be captured because we have the technology to do that. So was it perimenopause then? We weren't living as long. I don't know. And yes, I think it's created this whole hubbub of thing that make women believe that they can't trust their bodies and that they're like entering into non-fertility, which isn't even the case half the time. And honestly, when you get to menopause, you're at your wisest point of womanhood. So we get to speak on that more too. So I think I'm at a different place because I believe it gets to be brought into the assessment process from the medical aspect. in paying attention to where a woman is in their cycle and how that's going to affect the medications they're being prescribed, their treatment modalities that they're being prescribed and how they're responding to them. Stephanie, you got a hard out coming up. Are you, I'm okay for the next like five minutes. Okay. Fantastic. Yeah. Um, I think that like these beautiful life transitions that women go through that can definitely be very, very, very challenging for, for many have been pathologized and reduced to these. I always say they've been reduced to singular hormonal events and they don't take into consideration the psycho emotional side and they don't take into consideration the existential side of medicine because there is this existential side of medicine where, um, feeling any type of way that is disruptive or dysregulated has a very large effect on our quality of life and the relationships that we have, not to others, but also to ourselves. And so what I want to see is when women present with a challenge during these transitions, postpartum and postpartum depression, perimenopause, whatever it is, It's not just about suppressing their symptoms. And I think that's what it is. And it's not just about the pharmacological treatment or the medication or the prescription that we're going to give them, but it's other tools that go beyond the pill that you're going to take. or the transdermal estrogen or the cream. It's beyond that. And I think that that's what we've lost. It's this global, total, holistic awareness of self where all we want to do is be productive and not be disrupted. So it's like, I'm having these hot flashes. How do I make them go away? So like, just give me the prescription. And like, that's where I think we've broken down and the whole system has fallen apart because we're It's it's like chicken and egg for me. It's not just that the person, the individual has to be able to go to the provider and say, you know, this is what's happening. But I want to look at this in a holistic way. It's also the provider that has a responsibility to say, like, OK, I will give you this prescription that will help manage this unpleasant feeling that you're having. But let's like zoom out and look at the whole picture. And that's what's missing in medicine. So, of course, this is a you know, all of these transitions have their, you know, medical baggage, if you will, but like, let's not pathologize it and see it as a problem to fix. It's a rhythm to revere, right? Rhythm to revere. Rhythm to revere. I love it. I got a, who's, this one's coming from Jay Blaze from Joshua Tree. He says, when was the last time science failed you, but spirit caught you? Yeah. I know for me, my wife got diagnosed with cancer. And that for me, Jay, was when science sort of dropped me and spirit caught me. Because in those situations, all you really have when everything's stripped away with models or numbers or imaging or testing, like you get lost in the science and you really get caught by the spirit. And that's what did it for me. But what say you girls, you ladies? I think what first comes up is like the pressure to do no wrong and to do no harm with patient and inpatient care and to know that you're putting your all into something and still there might be an adverse outcome or something that you're not anticipating or a complete left turn or right turn happens. And I think in those moments of how that has shown up for me in my career, it's to then Cause it can be, it can really take the rug out from under you and get you into a very dark place. And I, that those are the moments in which I feel that like spirit has shown up to say like, you, we have you, you have yourself, you are okay. Like this is, it's going to be okay. You're not a failure. You're, you know, and whatever showed up for this other person, it was divinely meant to in that way. And to trust that, like, that we're all co-collaborating in this experience together and, and, it has saved me a few times when I've been brought to my knees and despair because of things that have happened that were, were not out of my control. Yeah. Wow. That's a, that's powerful for sure. Um, well, There's something that I don't talk about very often, but I think I need to start talking about it really often a little bit, a little bit more. My husband has a heart defect that, you know, came that developed with time and they caught it when he was younger. But in twenty twenty, he ran the L.A. Marathon and had a cardiac arrest. And this is someone who was, you know, thirty years old at the time, trained for a marathon, always an athlete, eats well, was on the medication that was prescribed to him to control all of the variables, was screened, you know, and basically evaluated and cleared. And yet this happened and it was, you know, it was traumatizing. It was difficult. He survived and he's doing he's doing great. But here's something that like science, you know, like Pardon me, but fuck science here. You know, like, like, just fuck it. Honestly, there was like no rhyme or reason. The anyways, I can go into the details, but all this to say that, like, this is where a spirit had to really intervene. Spirit held us. It pushed us through. It really held us because we went from the hospital into lockdown because this was COVID that hit us. We left the hospital and went into lockdown. And it was weird. It was weird. And we pushed right through and, you know, we were a unit and we both like survived it. But again, like plant spirit came knocking on my door a few years later and said, you didn't process any of it. You just pushed through and maybe that was what you needed at the time to, you know, quote unquote survive. But now it's time to get down and work, you know, and like figure out what, what are the emotional scars? What were the, what were the repercussions of that? Because of course, of course, we were both carrying this baggage from that very stressful time. And so many lessons were learned, so many lessons I'm still learning, but it's reframed our relationship. It's reframed my relationship with life and death. I've always been this person that just wants to soak up life. And I've always had this feeling of like, I don't want this life to end. It's so good. It's facing death in this way, like through like your partner is like a whole wild lesson. And, you know, F science, it has nothing to do with science in this case, you know, like science is beautiful and amazing. And I'm so grateful that we have it, but it can be so reductive. And so again, bridging science with the spirit is the only, is the only way. And sometimes it's to let go of science. all together and just move straight into the spirit. And the last thing I'll say is that, you know, I was brought up Catholic and I went to an all girls Catholic high school where we went to mass every Tuesday. And at one point I rejected the shit out of it. I was very interested in world religions. I even studied world religions in university as an elective because I thought I'm fascinated by cultures. But I had a full rejection. I said I was atheist at one point. And though I don't have all the answers about what happens after we die and is God real or whatever, psychedelics made me believe in a source, in God again. I don't subscribe to organized religion. I have my own thoughts about organized religion. it basically made me believe in God again. So again, you know, science only takes you so far sometimes and you have to kind of see the way to, or let, you know, like let spirit come in. Yeah. It's such a beautiful answer. Thank you both for taking the time to put that out there. Next one we got coming in is, this one's coming from, who is this coming from? This has to be my last question. Okay. Okay. Let me get a good one here. Let's continue. Let's see. This one comes from Theo. He says, if your nervous system had a love language, what would it be? I'm not sure how to answer that, but that's what he says. Can it be active receiving? No. Nervous system? Just sing a soul song. Let me sing along to a soul song. Music. Okay. Here's a fast one for you. What was the last time you followed a symptom instead of treating it? Thank you, Desiree. Oh, that's so good. always yeah always follow us and like allow it always follow it yeah I give it instead of treating it listen okay and not and first go holistic like I try you know whatever herb or plant before I well I don't you know I do that too oregano oil is like the windex for me yeah thank you uva ursa if you got an inkling of a uti which is also telling you something's out of alignment like or it could be that person or that partner or the stress of an environment like those are little things when they're whispers so I follow the symptoms I let it unfold a bit again when we put like a constriction around it like try to control something when it's actually information for us and you give it a little bit more room to breathe and trust that like what's you know I always say like what's the worst thing that's going to happen like You're gonna like in someone's- You're gonna die though, right? You're gonna die. You're gonna die no matter what. So like, fuck it. I always say when people are like so overwhelmed with life or, you know, in the hospital setting, like people could actually die and that is real, but otherwise anywhere outside of like a critical environment, Like, what's the worst that's going to happen? Nobody's going to die if you take, like, two extra days to write something. You know what I'm saying? Like, everything is okay. Yes, and. But our fight or flight is, like, got to go, got to be, got to do. You're like, relax. Like, relax. Yeah. I you know if there's like a symptom that like is like you know like oh I you know it's bothersome like you could take an Advil and it can go away like I think yes but but I tend to do that too like Jen said like oh why am I feeling this way let me let me feel into this is there a reason behind it before I just try to like mask it so body body aches or like persistent body aches not just like oh, I'm sore from my workout. But if there's like a new pain in my body, I want to figure out why am I having it? And so I will go inward and think about it. And I didn't I didn't used to do that. I would pop the Advil right away because before I was all about productivity, productivity only. I really used to be that way. I just didn't want to be burdened by anything. So I wouldn't take the time to listen to what my body was trying to communicate. Yeah, it's well said. Stephanie, where can people find you? What do you got coming up? Denver. Denver is coming up. If you're in the Denver area, Jen and I and our good friend Grace Bless-Hopley, who's also a neuroscientist, we're going to be having a deep discussion about the future of women's health. I think it's running on the banner. You don't have to be attending the conference, the Psychedelic Science Conference to learn. to attend, you can just sign up. What else is going on, Jen? We're going to be in New York the following week. If anyone's in New York and would like to link up with us, we'll be in New York the entire last week of June from the twenty third to the twenty ninth. People can find me at beyondconsulting.life. And you can just send me a message through my contact form or Steph K on Instagram. And there's two underscores just to make it all that hard for you to find me. But yeah, feel free to reach out if you have any questions about honestly anything, women's health, neuroscience, psychedelics, plants, music. I'm always happy to chat and connect dots. Yeah. Thank you. It's awesome. Jen, where can people find you? What do you got coming up? Stephanie mentioned a few places you'll be, but we'll be together at those in those places. I'm currently in Basalt, Colorado, and I'm working on some things to potentially do here in Aspen, some gatherings. So email me Jennifer at I resonate health.com. My website is I resonate health.com. And my Instagram is Jen dot Zuckerman is my personal. I have resonate health. We're building that out right now. So, either one you can find me and I'm here to answer any questions. And I am also here to support participants and practitioners in the space, in the realm of psychedelics and, uh, So I do a lot of medication tapering and preparing the physical vessel to meet some of these psychedelic molecules. I love it. Ladies and gentlemen, everybody in the chat that took time to hang out with us today, I hope you have a beautiful day. Go down to the show notes, reach out to both Stephanie and Jen. They're amazing people doing really cool stuff. And that's all we got for today, ladies and gentlemen. Have a beautiful day. Aloha. Thank you. Bye, guys. Thank you. Thank you, Joy.