Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. Hope everybody's having a beautiful day. Hope the sun is shining. Hope the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back. Ladies and gentlemen, Vicente Alonso, he doesn't offer therapy. He offers amputation of illusion, of ego, of everything that keeps you from the truth. Vicente is not here to fix you, he's here to dismantle you. Quietly, precisely, without apology. Trained and gestalt, but tempered by a decade in the shadow of Dr. Claudio Naranjo. Vicente doesn't guide with words, he hunts with presence. Ibogaine is not a tool in his hand, it's the blade he honed on his own soul. Meditation made him still, suffering made him exact. Now he moves like a sniper through the psyche, tracking trauma through breath, memory, and myth. as co-founder of ah somata and director of iboga quest he's built a method where neuroscience kneels before the sacred and therapy becomes ritual dissection this isn't healing it's psychic surgery under candlelight no anesthesia no escape this is vicente step in only if you're ready to die to who you were and live like the wound never lied vicente thank you so much for being here today how are you Well, thank you for that generous presentation. I'm doing great and so happy to be in your space. Yeah, I'm excited to have you. We've got a big event coming up here on June seventeenth at Psychedelic Science, the Iboga Saves event. And there's so many incredible people that are going to be there and yourself included. Are you excited for the event or what are your thoughts on it? Absolutely. I'm always very happy and excited to have this space and events when consciousness, awareness and compassion can be spread and and more spread to the public. Exactly. I've been very fortunate to speak to lots of different people that are coming there. And one thing that I'm always amazed by is the story of how they got to be where they are. So I was curious if maybe you could fill us in a little bit of the background of how you got to be where you are. Absolutely. Well, I think it started very young when I always been very curious about the mind. You know, I had actually a lot of difficult sleeping at night when I was a kid. And until I start saying like, what's going on? You know, what's the mind? And I was just watching my thoughts and watching everything that happened. And that kind of was the seed, this question of what's the mind for me was the seed that planted in mind consciousness and then start this search. And I went different paths and I ended up studying psychology in the university to kind of try to understand a little more about what's this deal about being a human. and having a body and a mind and a heart and all of that. But the traditional academia didn't satisfy my curiosity. And during that time, I got in touch with Claudio Naranjo, which was a teacher and writer. It's hard to define him. He was defined as a shaman among the scientists and a scientist among the shamans. So whenever I listened to him the first time, he had a very integrative approach about bringing in traditional shamanism, modern psychotherapy, and especially my main interest, which has been Buddhism and non-duality paths and knowledges. And also he integrated also the mythology and literature, kind of finding truth in everything, you know, and how it's expressed in different ways in different traditions. But they're all pointing out to the same direction. So I fall in love of his mind, actually, you know, and his method. So I followed him for almost ten years, I think, and worked with him at the end. And that had a very deep influence in me. I actually didn't want to be a psychotherapist. I was more curious and just wanted to learn about human nature. and human condition. And he told me, he's like, it will be good for you if you start to get some psychotherapy because it will open your heart more, you know, to get more in touch with suffering and the beauty of suffering, which I really see that as a kind of a blessing of this life, you know, or this body that we are able to suffer consciously, as Gurdjieff pointed out. And And yeah, so that my interest in psychedelics or plant medicine started also in my teens. I never went into I was never part of a party scene or raves or psychedelics and like that. So I went right into intentional use of psychedelics. And Claudio include that in his work, too. So I learned from him and along with my wife, we've been practicing this for fifteen years almost. And And that's where I met Barry, which is the founder of Iboga Quest, which has been a great influence in my life, learning from him, how he works with Ibogaine and how he approaches humans in a very compassionate and very beautiful way. And we share also the Dharma path. So we click right away and I've been working the last four years sharing this medicine with people. It's such a beautiful story. There's so many key phrases in there that really hit my heart. The first is that academia didn't really satisfy my mind. On some level, there's so much you can learn in academia, but it seems to be lacking the language of experience on so many levels. And it just leaves us open to more curiosity on some level. What are your thoughts on that? Absolutely agree. I mean, it's beautiful. As you can see, I love reading. I love science. My wife, especially, she's more into that, more into interpersonal neurobiology and all the nervous system, all of that. But it's kind of cold at some point that you can study something as an observant. But in order to grow as a human, you have to be immersed in the tool. You have to really practice that tool. And that was Claudio's emphasis. He was a huge academic. He was a doctor and PhDs here and there and psychiatrists, blah, blah, blah. But he learned from his own experience that he needs to go there and actually have a process of self-growth. really try the tools really kind of embody everything that it's been shown and also to for me it's been it's always beautiful and my biggest passion is to listen and to learn from traditional spiritual paths or shamanic paths you know I really love to learn about islam about buddhism about mystic christianity sufism judaism like all of them they have a a mystic core which says a lot about human nature. And that is hard to translate into academia language. So I have an integrative spirit. I think there is truth everywhere. And for example, Claudia said that the same thing that we have two eyes to feel, to know perspective, to have perspective. having also like an eye on science and academia and an eye of spirituality, shamanism and mysticism give us a wider perspective of our nature. Let's put it that way. Yeah, it's really well said. I like the idea of having the two eyes to see two different sides of everything. You know, I'm curious to get your opinion. It seems we have a total different attitude towards medicine in the Western world than we do in other parts of the world. And I'm wondering, as someone who is facilitating and practicing where you are and the experience that you've had, do you see these two things kind of coming together? It kind of seems like there's a little bit of infighting, you know, this whole science versus spirituality. But from your perspective, what do you think about that? Look, it's hard to say. It's hard to say and it's very controversial. There's a lot of opinions surrounding this. I see two kind of branches, people kind of being very specific that we have as Westerns to consider and include the traditional ways and another branch saying like approaching medicines in general from a more scientific point of view, even pharmacological point of view, just learning what the molecule does to this part and how is that having an effect on humans. And I see Western society as a new society. It's the merge of so many different political, sociological movements that end up in the countries we know today and in the Western society that we know today and in the mindset. So for me, I think we need to find a new way, a new way that turns our side to traditional ways and we can learn a lot from them. But it's also true in my experience that some people need a more familiar approach. For example, if you grew up as a Mormon, which we receive a lot of Mormons here in our center, and I bring a lot of traditional kind of belief sets or practices that might be kind of disruptive for the person. So I think the basic, or the basic elements that I find in traditional beliefs practices are the emphasis in the relationship. The whole community takes care of you while you're in the medicine. The relationship or the recognition of the interdependence with environment and the territory. And also the respect and reverence towards the medicines and the sacredness of that space, the space that the medicine opens in your consciousness. And I think all of that can be included in Western practices, addressing Western problems, because it's hard to find in a, let's say a community in Africa, a fentanyl addict. But it's very easy to find a fentanyl addict in the West or different kinds of trauma, different kinds of alienation. Traditional communities, they're marginalized. They suffer a lot. They have a lot of trauma. but they're still together, you know, and that holds a lot of that trauma. And the Western individual is pushed to individuality, you know, it's pushed to segregation, to alienation. And that brings a complete different degree of challenges. It's not that someone is better than another, but it's just a different needs. So we need to kind of find ways to adapt, to merge the two worlds and to to not to always see the people, the person that you have in front and not see your beliefs in between, you know, and your political agenda or anything to kind of clean the mirror and just meet the people where, where they are, where, where they come from and where their current needs, you know, I don't know if that answer a little bit of question. Yeah, no, it's a beautiful answer. And I think it it's, it helps to shine a light on the divide. but not only the divide, but also where we're together. Like we all have a set of different issues and we all look at the world through our unique perspective, even though we're probably all part of one another. I want to jump in. I just want to warn you, I got the best audience in the world over here. And I got a philosophical question coming in here from Desiree. She says, what does it mean to be initiated in a culture that's forgotten how to die before we die? I don't know if I answered the question. Well, it is an important thing. I really... Claudio used to talk a lot about that. And there is beautiful quotes on different parts about how we need to learn how to die before dying, you know? And we live in a culture that denies dead. Like dead and birth are kind of a private thing. Like keep it a little away from society, you know? Actually, this is a little weird, but actually after my first Ibogaine experience, you know, I live in Mexico. In Mexico, you run into dead dogs here and there. It's not everywhere, but sometimes you see some dead animal or whatever. and naturally after my Ibogaine experience I instead of kind of all the smell and just kind of pass by very quickly I stopped a little bit and and just acknowledged that a being was there that you know and kind of integrating the the the nature of that in in our daily lives so um I don't know, I'm not that big with the initiated at all. I have the other initiations, especially in Buddhism and stuff like that. But in every spiritual path, that I know that I've been practicing, having awareness of that or the conscious of that, it's the main motivation, the main kind of ignites the longing or the seeking spirit to continue into the path and fully go into it. So I don't know if that's kind of what it is going on, but I think This question points out a very important reality that sometimes the space that we open in these plant medicines, personally with ibogaine, which is a very deep experience, it can be contra, how can I say, hard to bring back into Western society because a lot of the values that awakens and the awareness that we awaken during those experiences We tend to deny that in our Western societies. So it's for sure a challenge to be initiated in a society that hides discomfort. I do. It's a brilliant answer. We got some people coming in and they say, we have to work with what we have. I'm working with clinics on stem cells. And I don't want to discount any of the scientists that are out there working really hard to help the people that need it. Like, I think that we need both sides working with stem cells, doing different kinds of therapies. I want to be part of the solution that helps bridge that gap because we need each other on a lot of levels, right? Like we need each other to figure this thing out. And even though there will be, like you said, some sort of, you know, cosmic interplay or some resistance, it's probably something we need to work out. Whenever we hit those points of resistance, it's probably someplace we should stop and have a really good conversation, even if it's contentious at times. That's right. And I agree. I mean, stem cells is a beautiful treatment. A dear friend of mine just got a huge improvement in chronic back pain using that. So it's a beautiful thing. I will go back to Carl Rogers, one of the main psychologists to start in the humanistic kind of branch of the psychology. that he has a statement that for me, it's the center of my work, which is what heals is the relationship, you know? And Gabor Mate, it's been mentioned in that a lot, that there are research showing that a lot of people coming to a doctor with certain conditions, if the doctor is just kind of prescribing and next, you know, is very different. And if the doctors show interest in the person, the person is intimately and profoundly impacted by the quality and compassionate part of the relationship. So that can be that that can be translated into any discipline. If you go to a lawyer because you have a legal issue and the lawyer shows genuine interest in you, then your legal struggle will be way better than if you just go with the best lawyer that doesn't pay attention to you. So that applies for me. That's the main core element. And for example, I study gestal therapy, which is a lot of emphasis in relationship. A lot of emphasis is in that relationship. As a therapist, you have to embody what is called the gestalt attitude, which is presence, responsibility, and authenticity. And that is kind of contagious with the client. And back in the fifties, sixties, when gestalt started to rise, that was just an observation and anecdotal evidence. But recent research, especially lead by Dan Siegel, a very, very good psychotherapist and researcher and neuroscientist, has shown how actually our nervous systems are co-regulated all the time. So if I am as a therapist, I'm present, I'm open, I'm curious, or not just as a therapist, as a stem cell practitioner or as a nurse, as a doctor, that has an impact in the nervous system of the person, you know, that has a direct physiological impact and it can also modify with time, you know, how the brain is structured and how the brain is integrated. So this is, for me, the most beautiful example about that we are all pointing to the same direction and we don't, instead of feeling that there are antagonist views, you know, they are completely mergeable, you know? And that is, for me, finding Dan Siegel's work, and my wife is the expert on that, it's been a beautiful kind of way to validate and solidify my observations in psychotherapy, you know? So I think science is one of the most beautiful tools, especially in the Western world. But we, well, my opinion is that science needs a little bit of humanization, like, you know, to not see subjects, to see persons in some point of view, you know? And yeah, I think that's what I think. I love it. It's I always come back to the idea of language, you know, especially in the Western. If you look at English, we have this subject object relationship. And even in the language, it permeates all our relationships. OK, I'm the subject. You're the object. I'm the authority figure. You're the patient. And we really get lost in that sometimes, you know, we start labeling all these identities and then all of a sudden people fill these roles. And it's really hard to get out of, say, an addiction or a disorder if you have a label on you, because all of a sudden it switches the way in which you can move from that stuff. What are your thoughts on that? Absolutely. And first of all, whenever we label something like an addiction, it's an extraction. It's like we as humans, we are so complex and so multidimensional. We are inseparable of our environment, our relationships, our story, our epigenetics, our transgenerational stuff. And if you want to go farther, we have like a karmic or something that we were born with. I mean, we are super complex and beautifully complex, you know. And if we want just to define a human as an addiction and define a medicine as something to fix the addiction, I think we are narrowing our ability to understand and to... to meet the person in front of us, and also to understand the mystery, well, if that's a thing to understand, but to approach more the mystery of how these medicines or plant medicines work, really, you know? For me, it's never been about, yeah, they combine with this receptor, therefore there is this result, you know, this pharmacological kind of allopathic point of view for me is very limited. It's interesting to understand the molecules, but it's way bigger than that because going into an Ibogaine experience is not just about like the Ibogaine interrupting an addiction in the case of addiction. It's a deep experience. It's a deep experience that you're taking a molecule that has some sort of intelligence that is so mysterious, and that combines to your consciousness, your mind, your story, and creates a very unique and specific experience for you. And that is not just about interrupting the addiction, but it's about it's way deeper than that. You know, it's about meeting yourself and kind of. I don't even like the world, the word or the narrative of releasing trauma or cleaning yourself, because it's about for me, it's more like about like this process of of of creating more inner resources and a wider container to understand you to to. to approach yourself with more kindness, compassion, love, understanding. And in that way, you know, to being able to find new ways to cope with your inner world that are not self-destructive. So yeah, coming back to the, I think language is very powerful. And especially in the psychedelic movement, there is a lot of words that are being overused, that they kind of are separated from the real meaning of it and are creating a little bit of a misconception of how it works, you know? I do. And it's really well said. We got Andreas coming in from, Andreas from Sweden. What's up, Sweden? And hello, Andreas. He says, does iboga strip away the ego or does it reveal the architecture of the false self with surgical precision? I think I like better the two ones. For example, this is a very interesting thing about the psychedelic movement. We usually, or it's common to find this narrative or this language surrounding like the ego equals a bad thing. It's like I want to have an ego dead. I want to kill my ego. I don't want to live from the ego. But this is kind of the dangerous misconception because if you kill the ego, the result is psychosis. Yeah, totally. The ego, it's an adaptive, evolutionary, beautiful machine inside of your mind that has some specific functions, right? you know, for regulating your energy, centering, relating, have self-awareness, et cetera, like that. That has to do with ego functions. That if I just kill that, you know, I end up like having a very dysregulated state of mind, you know? For example, in my path, I get to know very high or very advanced Buddhist teachers. You can feel that they have a very large degree of self-development. They still have an ego. But the ego is not... Claudio used to say that the problem with the ego is that at some point it does... Spanish is called un golpe de estado, which is when someone takes over the government. I don't know in English. So the ego kind of end up feeling that is the center of all experiences. And that narrows our ability to respond with more creativity and flexibility into the present moment. So the work, I really like that from Ibogaine, it really shows you the structure of your ego in a very precise way. understanding that a lot of our coping mechanisms or adaptive measures from the ego comes from painful experiences. And we adapt to that. call that a light adaptation or a more kind of heavy adaptation, like as an addiction. But all of those adaptations helped you at some point to survive and cope with whatever was in front of you in life. So first of all, we have to approach this ego debt or this kind of analysis of the ego with compassion, that the ego was a tool that helped me go through life to whatever life brought me back, you know? And from that perspective, I think Ibogaine is a very powerful tool because it does give you the ability or the chance to learn how do you end up building these compensations or ego traits, for example. But not just that, it gives you the experience. It potentially gives you the experience to open up to these painful experiences, to process everything that is inconclusive inside of you. So you can relax a little bit the defenses, the ego defenses. and live in a more open way and not anticipate the past into the present moment. That's one function of the ego is to help you feel more safe and feel more balanced. And that sometimes takes a little bit of weird ways. So in order to make the ego more flexible, or let's say more healthy, taking the meaning of the word, which is kind of an orientation to wholeness. So our ego that is less fragmented, we need to have resources in in our body somatic resources and mental emotional resources to being able to contain um the inner experiences that at some point was were perceived as very threatening you know and fragmented the ego so ibogaine gives you that experience a common experience with ibogaine some it's that people feel that they they are more in an attitude of witnessing the emotional element that is arising and not so much kind of immersing that, which is a trait that we practice in meditation. But people sometimes just get the first level of meditation, which is attention to the present moment. But it's not just that. It's like by attending or by getting more familiar with the present moment, you rest back in a healthy, in a more pristine aspect of the mind. that has never been harmed, as Gabor Mate says, and Buddhist philosophy says that, you know. So from that perspective, kind of appealing to a more healthy, complete state of mind, then every experience that comes into your way, let's say you get a fight with your partner and you get triggered, well, you can meet that anger, that pain, that sadness with more awareness of it, with more compassion of it, And with more wisdom in the sense that you notice that all inner experiences have the same nature of arising, they stay a little bit, and they fade. And we just have to allow that process to happen instead of interfering with it. Yeah, that's a beautiful answer, right? We got some more people coming into the chat and they say, we have discovered cells and organs and have spirit. We have discovered cells and organs and have spirit. So the cells need spirituality before the stem cells will work. That's an interesting concept. And I think it speaks to that idea of wholeness. When we started looking at the cells as having spirit. uh the the trust builds faith builds belief makes miracles creates science I love all of that I want to get to another question we have coming in over here too vicente and it says what is iboga taught you about the relationship between the death of addiction and the rebirth of responsibility interesting you know iboga has taught me that um The process is not about getting rid of anything. The process is about accepting, understanding, and kind of meeting whatever comes to you. And I will share a little bit of my experience with Iboga. During the experience, my first experience of Iboga, it was a very deep experience. But I experienced a lot of, first of all, it was beautiful visions and make a lot of sense about my life and things I was kind of going through and processing and stuff like that. But then it turned into a very kind of dark experience, a lot of violence, a lot of terrifying visions, you know. And I had a loop. uh of a vision that was very challenging for me it's like my worst fear you know my worst fear was playing again and again and again and again and I was like oh oh my god what to do with it and I couldn't get rid of it or out of it until I I tried something it's like what is this vision what is what is my emotional response to this vision and I said like oh my god it's it's fear you know And then I went back into my body because I build those resources, you know, that's kind of true meditation and psychotherapy. I just rest back and open to my fear. And then after opening to my fear, I realized how afraid I was growing up and how fear has been a very core emotion in my life that I have to, or that I coped with in so many different ways. And that disconnect me from life. That brought more isolation, more kind of refuge in my mind center and go away from my body. So for me, it was a very beautiful and direct teaching from the plant of there is no kind of, I'm not going to make your life more comfortable. Life is not about being comfortable. You know, that's a Western thing about I have my AC and my cushion and my Netflix and everything. That's a capitalist view. But life is not meant to be comfortable. Life is meant to be challenging and learn from that. And in me and in everybody here and everybody in the world, there are necessary resources and skills to hold and go forward. to go through these discomforts, you know? So that was a huge insight for me. And I've been, my work since that experience that I've been four years now, it's a constant reminder and constant exercise of awareness to whenever I feel close, you know, and recognize that that's a response of a fearful experience, that I'm experiencing fear, and how can I sit back and hold that fear? How can I open myself to that fear, you know, and relax into that, go through that, you know? So, sorry, I don't remember the question exactly, but... So it's the same case of addiction. It's not about the debt of addiction, because we have to understand addiction not as a choose or chose decision, but as a kind of an adaptation. You know, I mean, if you're familiar with the Gabor's Mate work, for me, it's the most precise for addiction. But there is a lot of research, even way back into the forties and fifties, about how the core of the addiction is kind of a mislead phenomenon. attempt to fix something deeper or to cope with something deeper you know let's say like a lack of existential meaning or um trauma or or everything mixed together so for me this is coming back into the language. For me, this is a little, uh, a very important element to have in mind that ibogaine is not a substance to get you free of the addiction in the same, because a lot of people approach ibogaine is like, my problem is that I consume, uh, opiates and my solution is to stop consuming opiates. So give me the ibogaine and I'm, I'm, I'm rid of that. And that's what I've, uh, what I'm going to share in, in, in the conference coming next week, because, uh, Whenever you take away an addiction, yeah, it's a relief. Especially there is some stages of addiction that it's so much troubling and you can't do anything about it because you are immersed in that pattern. So Ibogaine is a huge blessing for that. But then you have to deal with yourself. And that's the real challenge. And the tendency of your mind to coming back into coping with an addiction is very strong. So I always insist in people that the ibogaine process will help you for sure, but it's just the beginning. you have to really commit and not just committing to working out and do bread work and do all those tools that are wonderful but commit into building resources so you can meet yourself to understand better yourself and to have a more compassionate and curious uh gaze into your view of you of yourself you know um so Yeah, more than an addiction being dead. And yeah, I like the rebirth of responsibility, which is the word means the ability to respond into the present moment. It's not about be responsible and never miss your work, your job. It's like, no, respond to whatever comes to you. So life is challenging. You probably will receive some shock trauma in your life. you will be triggered for sure. No matter how, what happened or where you live, you are going to be triggered. And in a bad day, when you get pushed, you know, you will, your mind will be very tempted to go back into the known resources. you know, or the old coping mechanisms. So, you know, the process is not so much kind of allopathic point of view that I have an infection, I take an antibiotic and the infection is gone, but it's more like rhizomatic and more kind of spirally, an spiral process whenever you have to work in your awareness and in your resources to meet life as it comes because life is not stopping, you know. yeah it's really well said I think it speaks volumes of the way in which we look at medicine and disease and all of these issues that come up for us who we have we have neil coming in neil says you integrate meditation neuroscience and iboga is awareness itself the real medicine absolutely Yeah. And it's hard to understand that. And I want to share another experience. You know, recently I had a session with my psychotherapist and we were working about something and stuff like that. And at some point I... I fall into this idea that I have to do something to fix something, you know? And he told me, it's like, just pay attention to it. Just notice that when it's happening, just notice, and that's enough. And suddenly it was like, oh, okay, okay. But hours later, it was like, right, I forgot about that. I lost trust in awareness. Because whenever we are aware of something, And especially if you work also, Dan Siegel has a beautiful tool that I recommend to you all. It's called The Wheel of Awareness. And you can search for that. There is free audios to guide you through it. And there is a book called Aware also written by him. And that's a beautiful way to practice this for everybody without getting into Buddhist philosophy or anything like that. But anyway, the thing is that whenever you are aware of something, you can choose. know you are not operating from an automatic or neurotic way you know you can kind of make this pause and choose do I want to respond in some way or can I try this other way you know or pause and say where am I really feeling what's my real need behind of that you know for example a lot of maybe Whenever you feel attracted to go back and use some drugs, it's like I'm aware that this is coming into my mind. So what's my real need, you know? And a lot of that need is I need connection, you know? I need understanding. I need empathy. I need a sense of purpose. I need to rest because we exploit ourselves so hard in this society. We swallow our bosses, you know, and we kind of are treating ourselves like all the time very harsh, you know. So whenever awareness is enough, and it's kind of the gestalt principle that the main goal is just to become aware. And then as an automatic kind of awareness in action is responsibility. How am I going to respond to this? And then, of course, it leads you or invites you to live more authentically. OK, I'm going to respond in a way that is more authentic in the sense that if I need connection, well, I can reach out and look for that connection. So, yeah, awareness is kind of, and it's tricky, it's not easy, but because awareness can be very raw also. It's not like being aware, it's just like being in a sand garden and everything chill. It's being aware of your challenges, your shadows, your uh your pain you know and that sometimes is it's very challenging and it's it's perceived by the kind of narrow ego as threatening it's like no no I I don't want to be aware of my pain you know let's do something about it let's let's go and find some strategies to not touch that but that has to do more with a memory that than a reaction in the present moment yeah I love that answer Is there such a thing as a point of no return in self-awareness? A moment when someone becomes fundamentally altered? Fundamentally what, sorry? Fundamentally altered. Altered. Well... I don't know about that. I'm not yet there. I can share what my teacher said during the Buddhist thing. And in Buddhism, there is a different stage, especially in the suction practices, there is different stages of the practice. They say that at some point, at the beginning, you have to chase awareness. You have to chase the ability to recognize your awareness itself. So you have a degree of effort of... kind of bringing yourself back into that recognition. Then as long as you keep practicing, that can start to happen more naturally. And the last stage, the teaching says that the third stage is when awareness starts to chase you in the sense that you cannot not recognize it. So I think there is a point of no return in which as long as you are growing more in yourself, you're healing your fragmentation, which is kind of your trauma or your coping mechanisms and stuff like that. Awareness is a natural state of being. It's actually kind of the ultimate state of being. So it never goes away. We kind of separate from there. So the practice is to recognize, not to cultivate, which is another language that thing that can be misleading. It's not about, I'm cultivating awareness, because awareness is nowhere to find, no arising, no decaying, nothing. But it's about recognizing that you are awareness, you know, and recognizing about what you are aware of, you know. So I think, yeah, I think there is a point of no return. Yeah, I love that answer. You know, I'm curious about, I get to speak to so many different people that are in different fields and and on different kind of journeys but in my opinion and please tell me what your thoughts on this is it seems to me that in theogens and psychedelics they're sort of like a deciduous tree in that they come up when the season is needed and they create awareness for people and then we learn from that awareness and then they go back into the underground when I see this sort of psychedelic renaissance happening what I see is a cycle of like the fruit coming up the mycelium coming together and then the fruit and then it's going to go back into the underground what is your thoughts on that or do you see a maybe a potential for a long-term relationship with psychedelics above ground or you think it's sort of destined to go back into the underground you mean underground in sense like uh with legality and yes people building institutions legality all that kind of stuff right um Look, I'm going to bring my revolutionary being here. Yeah, bring him. Now we're talking. So I think psychedelics and psychedelics consciousness are not... are completely antagonists with capitalistic point of view and capitalistic values. Because capitalism has this extractionist point of view of like, for example, this is very common in the traditions in the Amazons. If you go to a traditional retreat there or you know the Shipibo people or the Kofan people, which are the both that I know, you can see that ayahuasca is just a very small part of their practices, or not that small, but just a part of a huge cosmovision. And capitalistic point of view or capitalistic kind of mindset goes there and see that as a thing to extract and to bring into a retreat center and to monetize and capitalize into that. That by itself, I think, has a lot of limitations. And I'm always saying that with medicines, less is more. This thing about taking medicine every weekend, it has consequences. And the consequence, meaning not just that you get affected by it or people get a benefit out of it. I am not saying that that's incorrect. it kind of confuses a little bit what's the real path we are cultivating here. And from my point of view, one of the the path or the main human need right now, it's moving out of alienation into connection. And Karl Marx said that in this alienation from the work we do, alienation from the environment, alienation from others, and alienation from myself. And I think he kind of made a very good analysis about how the capitalist system worked. Because everything we do with the capitalist logic leads more into alienation and uh and plant medicine consciousness is more it's completely the opposite it brings us to connection you know so how can I say this like I think they might they it's important to I like the underground movement because it's like you know like the like the shaman cabin is always a little away from the community. It's like you have to go there and look for it. You have to have the longing to approach there. I always say to people, your process started when the idea of taking Ibogaine started to pop up in your mind. And it's like, okay, I need to do something. And then you do your research. You reach out. You go there, you know. And that process is empowering for people. So... I'm always and I'm very careful about these and I'm not have a kind of rigid belief or thoughts about this, but the movement towards legalization of medicines appears to me that is going is moving. or it wants to be incorporated within the medical logic and system that we have right now, you know, and the capitalistic point of view and the patent and the this and that and the insurance and all that kind of messy world that we created in the Western world. So whenever I think these tools are... meant for people to heal and are here in this earth and in this part of nature so everybody or a lot of people have access to it but I will I I will always say that to understand that there are not the end that psychedelic experience is not the end or is not the solution it's a tool you know it's an ally to help you in in a path uh so I always kind of make this this distinction that yes and and also the reality that psychedelics are not good for everybody and I'm not saying for psychotic tendencies or all like that but there are parts of your life that psychedelics are not good for you you know that you need to to build resources before being able to bring that amount of energy in your body and in your nervous system and ride that energy into your path. And there is another way that any cathartic experience, not just psychedelics, but let's say allotropic bread work, even somatic approaches that invite you to kind of express a lot and scream and cry, if you do that a lot you can lose contact with the ability of self-regulate yourself and you can also start to build some sort of dissociation so more is not better you know more I always is like less dose and more awareness I think that's better you know and uh So I like to, for me, there are a lot of things that are sacred about these movements and these practices. And I don't see a niche within our capitalist logic to bring those sacredness into the mainstream public yet. I think it's super important to continue talking about it and to continue to find the ways to make this more available to people, but also to be very careful and very committed to really learn and transmit how are these tools really helping. individuals I do it's a great answer and it's a great segue for you know as of recently I found myself in a bit of a debate with there's a in a debate with part of the industry and it's this part of the industry that is selling certification and they're selling certification through like twelve weeks or a year-long zoom class and then you get to go do some ayahuasca tourism and now you're a guide What I came out as like, this is pretty dangerous. First off, you're commoditizing vulnerability. You are selling authority. You're dressing up qualification in the idea of certification. I'm wondering if you could speak to that. What are your thoughts on that? I agree. I mean, trainings are a great business. And it was a niche that got super explode. I recently saw an email that I don't remember the exact number, but it's like four hundred plus trainings in the West around psychedelics. So everybody wants to open that. I myself went into that into that thing. We have my wife and I and other colleagues. We have a training here for people, but for therapists kind of following Claudia Naranjo's work. And with the emphasis of, it's not about the information, it's not about how many ayahuasca or iboga ceremonies you have, it's about working in yourself because it's very important to understand a couple of things about psychedelic therapy or sessions. In psychotherapy, I don't know if you know this, there is these concepts about transference and contra-transference, which is kind of the elements that the therapist bring from other relationships into this therapeutic relationship, which is called contra-transference, and the opposite from the client, that is called the transference. Well, all of that magnifies or amplifies a lot during a psychedelic experience. So the most important element in a guide to train to be there for others is not so much about knowing how it's acting. Of course, you need to know all that to ensure safety, you know, but you need to really be aware of yourself. You know, I always say that like working with psychedelics is very easy in the sense that ninety nine percent of people will end up saying, thank you. It was the most powerful experience of my life, you know, and The ego loves that. Of course. The ego loves to now everything makes sense. Of course. I'm special. I am healing. I am a healer. I'm always very critical about people naming themselves as a healer. Because you actually just... present and playing music and giving something, you are not doing anything, man. Like the medicine is the healing, the mystery is the healing, you know? And of course the relationship is the most important healing aspect. But I always confront that a lot whenever, because ego inflation, spiritual bypassing, all of those elements can be really dangerous whenever we, you know, practice and serve these medicines. And I mean, just look around. There is a lot of examples of malpractice and people, you know, abusing or just doing ethical flaws or whatever. And it's not because they're bad people at all. It's because they had, as we all, you know, blind spots. that were kind of trying to be satisfied and fulfilled in the practice of serving psychedelics or any other kind of deep experiences. So I agree in that there is a lot of... Sorry, but a lot of really shitty trainings because it's not about the information. It's about the person. And it's about to work with the therapist, to work with the guide, and to work with their blind spots and the ethical flaws, you know. And the hidden intentions. I always say to people, it's like, why do you really want to do this work? Because I want to help others. Because I want to, yeah, what else, you know? Yeah, you probably want to be seen. You want to be enough. You want to be special. And that's okay. That's rooted in childhood memories. It's not make you a bad person, you know? But just be aware of them. Because that's what really can bring harm to the relationships. Yeah, it's really well said. There's so many interesting issues going on. And another trend that I see kind of sweeping, at least in the West, is this idea of microdosing. And I microdose sometimes, and I think it's a good thing. However, I think it becomes dangerous when it becomes like a disassociative. And I think if people are just microdosing, you're sort of moving into the brave new world of Soma versus moving into the world of the island, like Huxley's later book. where you actually can do some things and become aware, but what is your thoughts on microdosing? I really like that you brought that in. I really like microdosing as a therapeutic tool. I think it's very powerful. But I also start a program, actually, of group sessions with microdosing and microdosing iboga within IbogaQuest and also by myself with other medicines. And the main reason of this approach was that if you review literature and media posts about microdosing, They have a lot of dangerous language there. For example, it's like microdosing reduce your negative emotions, you know, or have a great day. There is a book called Have a Great Day, you know, like, and it's falling into this Western narrative and ideal of life is about being comfortable, right? So if you are struggling with something, just take something to get rid of it. So microdosings start to look more as another kind of biohacking wellness culture than in a sacred practice. And so people take magnesium and lion's mane and psilocybin just because it's good for me. And a lot of people start to come to my practice and say, I start microdosing to ease anxiety or depression or whatever, but I feel worse. And I always ask, like, worse how? Describe a little bit how are you feeling? Well, I feel sad, you know, or I feel angry. It's like, oh, okay, so... this is the main misconception. If I say that it's like, okay, no, microdosing should reduce your negative emotions and anger is a negative emotion. Then maybe go twice the dose, or maybe we do a larger dose. So you'll get rid of your anger and you go back to microdosing. That is a completely miss that that won't help anyone, you know? So it's to understand that, that you are taking a plant medicine. You are taking a, um, I like to see them as a spirit, you know, and as a spirit with intelligence. And it's bringing to your awareness unconscious content. And if you are depressed, it's super important for you to be angry. You need that energy to go out, to snap out of depression because depression is not sadness. Depression is a collapsed mind, a collapsed system, an excess in repression. So anger, it's empowering. Anger is a beautiful emotion. Not rage. Rage is kind of the dysregulated aspect of anger. But anger is such an empowering emotion. It gives you a lot of clarity. It gives you a lot of ability to set limits. A lot of depressed people, they're just lack of presence in their life, lack of limits, lack of going after their needs, lack of being authentic in what they feel, etc. So for me, microdosing works in that way. It brings up the elements that are fragmented from yourself that are repressed so you have the chance to elaborate to to learn how to uh to have more awareness of it you know and and to to to allow yourself to feel your your your emotions you know which is very important part of life there's some so important to to to interact with with life you know um so and I always said that that's why um Microdosing for me, it's a tool that needs to be paired with psychotherapy because you need to, or any other awareness practice, but you need to build resources or you need to have more clarity in the relationship is the best way to understand what's the material that has been awakened for you. Yeah, it's a really great point. Thanks for bringing that out. I really like the idea of depression as a collapsed system. You know, we often treat it as a symptom of something else, but to see it for what it is as a collapsed system, that's brilliant. It really helps become more aware of how to deal with it in that aspect of it. We've got some questions coming in here about Gestalt therapy. So this one's coming to us from Betsy. She says, how do you guide someone when they see their true face for the first time and recoil? And recoil. Well, yeah, truth is scary. Yes. You know, there is a principle in, I study a system right now called body dynamic, which is, I found very, very profound. It's come from Denmark and it's a somatic approach, psychotherapy. And the other day I was having my training and the teacher mentioned something that I think is, it's very important. And it's the, as therapist, it's to ensure that we are not going to leave you or leave the client even if they withdraw from themselves. So if you suddenly kind of see yourself fully and withdraw because it's too much, that at the end is not that something is failing and that you have to take more medicine or have more to bring you back. So it's to, as practitioners, to stay present, to stay open and to respect the movement that the mind does. Because if people recall, you know, it's because the experience was too intense to hold. So what should I do? I start to build more resources to hold the amount, the intensity of that experience. and to see the function of the symptom. Let's say like recall might be a little bit of, or can lead into dissociation. So if I see people coming back and then dissociate again, I won't say like, come back again, or I give you more medicine or whatever. But it's like, okay, this event right now is giving us a lot of awareness. What's the nature of your dissociation? What happened whenever you went back or you step into yourself? What was the experience there that you might need to recall? And that's awareness and that's huge. And just by noticing that mechanism, I have more space to try to come back or to try to feel myself, to try to kind of work with the symptom or with the adaptation and not against it. And this is more like practicing Aikido, you know? Like working with the mind is like that, you know? Because if I go against the resistance, well, the resistance just get bigger, you know? And if I break the resistance, break the armor super hard, that can bring a harder recall. Like, okay, yeah, it's like kind of you, how do you say? Have you... you have the the resistance has arguments it's like yeah you know it is unsafe to be that open so we have to go back and be stronger you know so I will say how it's just um with with compa with understanding and respect a lot of respect and honoring the the the mechanism you know yeah that definitely brings me back to the idea that maybe psychedelics aren't for everyone like maybe and how much the seeking is the medicine like the seeking is the preparing to see the mystery or preparing to see yourself in a way all that the journey the ordeal I like the word ordeal like you have to go through the ordeal so that you can understand what the medicine is trying to teach you you have to have that experience and be like oh now I get it but you can't get the the answer without looking and being part of the problem for a long time you gotta spend a lot of time in the problem before you find out the answer that's kind of the beauty of it is it makes you it makes you work for it absolutely I mean um my teacher always used to say like prepare people those are like in the psychedelic experience prepare people uh I'm sorry to the extent that the medicine is not longer necessary right And then you give them medicine, you know? So in the sense that, yeah, the whole journey. And another phrase or quote that my teacher kind of, well, Claudia, one of my teachers said to me that, well, not to me, it was said everywhere. but really it's talking to me is like the most beautiful part of the healing journey is the seeking spirit, you know, the longing, the hunger, you know, of seeking the truth or whatever you want to call it. But that's it, you know, like to have a path. And that's what I really like to transmit to people. Whenever people approach Ibogaine specifically to just get rid of some discomfort and that's it, just go back to your daily life. It's kind of, I struggle a little bit. I mean, I respect that also. I try to bring another perspective in, you know, knowing what the people, the person is, but I know that's very limited that suddenly you want to end up kind of going back again into your old patterns because they have a lot of inertia, you know, they have a lot of energy. But whenever people get curious about like, how can I continue this? What do you recommend? I want to join a workshop of my inner child. I want to go into psychotherapy. Please share, how can I get more into meditation? And when I see that, it's kind of the most beautiful, most satisfying aspect of my work is see when people awaken that longing or that seeking. And I see, I have a lot of anecdotal evidence on how those cases in the case of addiction recovery have more success, you know, Yeah. You know, it brings me back to this experience that I had quite some time ago, probably nine years ago. And I'd taken a really large dose after my son had died. And I remember I went through like a bout of depression and then like a lot of anger. And I thought to myself, like, I had this burning question of like, why me? Why did this happen to me? And you curse God and you curse everything, you know, and everything's kind of dying. But I had this incredible experience one time and it was after that event. Where in the depths of this giant trip, I was shown this vision. I heard this voice first. It was like, what do you want to know? It's like, I want to know why me. And then cast in front of me, as clear as a movie, I saw the most horrific scenes in the world of children dying, car accidents, fires, people being trampled. And to the point where I'm like, in my mind, I'm like, shut it off, shut it off, shut it off. And it's like, no, you wanted to know. You wanted to see. And it just kept playing and playing until I was literally in the bathtub, curled up in a ball, crying, you know? And then it's like, have you had enough? I'm like, yes, I've had enough. But for me, I can still go back to that experience from eleven years ago and I'm still getting more out of it. It's amazing to me to understand the things that were shown in these alternate state of awareness stay with us and they continue to teach us more and more and more without getting any more medicine, but just revisiting the lessons learned from there. Exactly. I completely agree. I had a very similar experience whenever in the Ibogaine experience I described, which is kind of, I end up seeing like, do you really want to open to compassion? You know, are you sure? There was that question. Are you sure you want to know? And I'm like, yes. It's like, okay, here you go. Bring it on, because you have to open to all realities and all the depth of suffering in this world. Yes, that's such a huge word. I think a long time ago, I heard Alex Gray describing the same experience, I think it was on DMT or something like that. suddenly he, I'm paraphrasing now, but he was kind of experiencing illumination, you know, like the expand amount of consciousness and awareness and suddenly an ocean of suffering was coming back to him, you know, like, because that's, that's it, you know, you want to be more open into, and that's, that's for me, the biggest teaching of Ibogaine is that, okay, you want to be open. You want to be more present. You want, you have to, you want to open your heart. Um, Well, you, you can't choose just to open to just a segment of life, which is beautiful. And you're with your friends in the beach and, and, you know, kind of love and peace. You have to open to everything, you know, and, and, uh, the equal amount of love in this world, it's equivalent to the amount of pain, and the amount of suffering, and desolation, and devastation, and tragedy, and grief, and loss, and name it. So kind of the tantric aspect of Buddhism is that is, is like just radically open to everything. And that's, that's not easy. I mean, I, I'm in that path and, and a lot of times I closed, you know, myself and I, I have to go back and I have to start over to open my heart and, and to feel safe doing so, which is the most important part, you know, to feel safe in my body, to contain that amount of, of, um, of struggle. Yeah. It's so well said. I, I, I always think to myself, especially when I, when I've been looking a lot about the Renaissance and seeing this, this sort of capitalistic model of all these guides, I'm like, man, are you sure you want to be a guide? Are you sure? Like the person that wants to be a guide should actually be put to the very back of the line. You know what I mean? Like that's the particular, the back of the line, like you do not want to do this. Like it's, it's so interesting to see that dichotomy. Absolutely. And you know what, this is, um, Well, I always joke around that. After any ceremony, the most common vision is the realization that you have to open a retreat center and be a guide, and your path in this life is to serve medicine, as among others. I always say, yeah, like, eighty percent of these people have had this experience. Don't take it too seriously. But coming back into, looking back into traditional approaches or communities, But it's called a shaman in some communities. They have different names and stuff. You don't choose to be so. And it's usually a very sacrifice role in your community. And a lot of the shamanic uh openings have started like a very hard spiritual emergencies or crisis you know and uh you know like experience of death and rivers but without any plant medicine or without being in a retreat center it's like in your house like terrifying and And coming back from that experience, you bring some wisdom back into your community and you kind of have to follow this path. You know, there is a famous shaman here in Mexico called Don Lucio, which is the tradition of the Nahua tradition of the graniceros. And he was in, I think, in a coma for months, you know, in a sort of coma. And he was in other kind of dimension receiving these teachings. And he had this... or it's not this, let's say, like condemned, you know, to serve. Because if he didn't follow that, he will die. He will get sick and die, you know. So a lot of shamans, we romanticize that idea role in our community and with this renaissance a lot of people wants to be guides or shamans or healers or whatever but it's it's a heavy burden you know it's a it's a it's an and it's a huge responsibility so yeah you want to get the compliments that's fine But you have to be ready also to assume all the responsibility that this brings. It's not easy in so many ways. It's so demanding energetically. It's so confronting for you. I've been learning how to manage my energy better because if I don't do it, I get sick. I get burned out. It starts to affect my family. It starts to affect my daily life. It starts to affect... Because also, you are there and a lot of energy is moving in the space and I'm still learning how to protect myself from there. And that's one thing we can learn from the traditional communities. And it's not just about cleaning myself with sage, it's deeper than that. So it is a huge responsibility to be a guide. Yeah, yeah, I agree. When you say the word sacrifice, how can you define sacrifice for you in your view? What does that mean to you? I don't remember how I said it, but sacrifice is... That in this traditional... In this traditional point of view... Sorry, like... the role of the shaman has so much responsibility and a lot of people, there is not a decision in the communities to do. So you have to do it. And in order to do that and to serve your community from that, you have to get rid of a lot of stuff. You have to kind of renounce or resign to other aspects of life. And I'm not saying as therapists we have to sacrifice. Actually, if you are sacrificing a lot, being a therapist or a guide probably has to be, it's very rooted in your own trauma and personal beliefs. But what I wanted to mention with that word is that the traditional approach of being a teacher. For example, in the Buddhist tradition, I one time asked my teacher, like, how did you end up being recognized as a tulku and do it so? You know, it's like, okay, this, you know, Dujan Rinpoche and Dilgo Kinzari Rinpoche went into my house. I was a little boy and recognized me as the reincarnation of Pema Lim, blah, blah, blah, you know? And he told me at the end, it was like, and you know, it's a beautiful name. I'm very honored to have this role, but it is hard, you know? I don't desire this to anyone because now you are, everybody is just approaching you and you have to hold a lot of minds and a lot of people putting your devotion in you and a lot of, it's a heavy role, you know? So it's not taken lightly. And sometimes our ego loves to, oh, I want to be seated in that chair or I want to be facilitating this or that. But it has a lot of, it has a cost. Yeah. I've never heard it put as condemned to serve, but I think that that's the most elegant way I've heard it. Thank you. Next we have coming up here. This one's coming from Jay blaze. He says, have you found that the integration of Iboga is more about facing ancestral pain or modern delusion? I think it's both. No, I mean, I think mother delusion is a result of ancestral pain. So well said. Yeah. So I think again, it's multi-dimensional, you know, it's a, One time I had a beautiful experience with psilocybin. It was a very low dose, but I was alone in a cabin. So I was in silence without lights. I was able to get deep into that. And I started to think about the epigenetic part and the transgenerational trauma. And suddenly I had this experience and it was not a vision of being in my grandma's body during the Spanish Civil War. And I could feel the fear and the spasms of her body with the bombs, you know, the bombs. And she was alone and like her parents were kind of part of the war. So she was with the nun and stuff like that. And that led me to turn around and see my father's family, which is his sisters and all the challenges that they were through. And how fear and sadness is an emotion that was not allowed in that family, you know? So by opening to my sadness and fear in this present moment, I'm kind of ending or not ending but giving a given space to the to that ancestral pain you know in my body in my present moment and that has an impact in in me and potential well yeah and and also in in others you know it's contagious but um And with Ibogaine, what I felt during this experience when I opened up to a lot of pain and fear of humanity, I also felt that way, that I was given space. I was given the opportunity by the Ibogaine to give space to this pain that is in the collective unconscious. It's in our DNA, you know? Because I believe that one's experience is everybody's experience. So all of the story of humanity is stored within our bodies. And Ibogaine, in my point of view, awakens that memory of ourselves, but also our whole race or our whole, how do you say, species. Yeah. I just got to sit with that for a second. The ability to recognize the generational pain that may have happened to you before you were even taking your first breath. That is gargantuan. And then to draw a parallel to some of the feelings you have now, like, wait a minute, this belongs to my grandfather. And I've heard multiple stories. Anders Beattie, who's a really incredible individual, he was telling me a story about his ibogaine experience where in the depths of a cocaine addiction, he was going through these withdrawals and he saw his grandfather and his whole ancestral line come to him dressed in these immaculate suits. And he just remembers like, oh my gosh, they're here to shame me. Like, look at me, look at what I have done. And they're here to be like, what have you done to our name? But the exact opposite happened. Like, I just want to cry. They're like, thank you. Thank you for expressing and holding this that we couldn't do. It makes me want to cry to think about that. Like that's so present in all of our lives. It's so, man, it's what are your thoughts on that? Well, I just got, how do you say, goosebumps. Yeah, me too, man. It's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. And I think it's so true, man. I mean, you know, we are a generation that comes from the nineteenth century, you know, and it was a lot of violence and a lot of war and genocides and brutalities and just what we are experiencing right now in the world. I mean, that taught us all, even if you are aware or not, you know, And at the same time, I want to bring a very, again, with the language, because, yeah, and that experience I was opening to my grandma's, it's not her sadness, it's my sadness, but it's her mechanism to close to that sadness. So by opening to my sadness, I am changing the way that my lineage hold challenging emotions. So it's not about, because if I say I'm holding my dad's sadness, that can kind of bring a separation from your sadness. No, it's like I'm holding my dad's way to deal with sadness. And that creates to me a lot of sadness. So I have to open to my, well, let's, you know, my, or like the possessive aspect of it is very controversial because who am I and all of that. But I am opening to the sadness that is happening now, you know, in this body, you know, that has a history. And a history of how we, how it's been dealed. That for me is the most important part. More than the emotions, because emotions are beautiful. All of them have a beautiful, adaptive and evolutionary message and energy. But we learn how to deal with them. And we learn from very early age, even in the womb, that some emotions are not welcome. Some emotions are experienced as threatening. For example, my grandma, my grandma suffered a lot. And after that, they moved to Mexico. And she had this idea of now everything is all right. The war is over, so everything is all right. But that message to my aunts and my dad, it was like, you can't cry because everything is all right. Don't feel fear because everything is all right. Don't feel angry because everything is all right. So it starts to negate or how to say, to disvalidate the emotions. And just put a pretty face and nothing is wrong. Well, yeah, okay, good luck, you know, because everything is moving here and what should I do with this, you know? So that's how we end up, that's what is called developmental trauma, you know, the unmet emotions and to having a lack of space to hold all the range of emotions that we experience, you know? yeah I do but cindy this conversation it it exceeded all my expectations I'm so grateful this is really really fun and I I feel like I got to learn a lot and I know my the people in the audience got to learn a lot um as we're kind of coming to the close here can you tell people where they can find you what you got coming up and what you're excited about awesome tim Well, I'm very underground, so I'm not very active in social media. You can reach out by my email, which is vicente at ibogaquest.com. Right now, we are very excited about the upcoming conference or talk organized by Awaken.net. Awake that night, sorry. And yeah, I mean, and here at the Boga Quest, we are going through a lot of beautiful changes, consolidating our methods in a more profound way. We're in a moment that we are not wanting to grow as a, let's say, business or anything like that, but grow in depth, you know, so... to bring a more authentic care and healing to people that come to us. And we also are starting a new program called Inner Wisdom, which is a different approach to the Ibogaine process. It's more aligned to psychotherapy and self-knowledge to people that are not dealing with addiction, but wants to just get to know themselves better and to expand their awareness of themselves to heal. what we were discussing so I'm very excited about that and yeah you know you I'm grateful for our time today and what you're doing but no man is an island and you were surrounded by a beautiful team of people can you tell me about some of the team the people on your team Of course. So first of all, I'm very grateful that my path crossed with Barry's. You know, Barry is the founder of Vivoa Quest. And for me, his approach, his commitment to help others, it's so inspiring. Other than that, another member of the team is Felipe, which is the main provider, and for me is one of the most knowledgeable guys of ibogaine and addiction interruption. He's a beautiful, compassionate, sensitive being, and he always meets people with a lot of humanity and a lot of care. And we also have our medical team, Juanita, which is our nurse. She's Mexican. She's been working, I think, for years with Ibogaine. So she really knows. And it's like the mom of the team. She's taking care of people, like, every day. And we have Ximena, Juan, Ninka, and Chris, which are other half-therapists, half of them are therapists, the other half are sitters. And... And our main approach is to that people that come to us, they feel right at home. You know, it's very warm. It's very like we'd see it by the fire with the members of the team and connecting among them and sharing their experience. And I've seen it's been very moving to me that a lot of the kind of the good outcomes that comes out of the treatment People name the Ibogaine, of course, but they name the container, they name the family, they name the genuine care that they've received. And I think this is, yeah, because, you know, I really am grateful to work with these people, heart-centered people that are very committed and, you know, very kind of human. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. It's the container as much as it is the medicine and Such an important part of it. Well, hang on briefly afterwards, Vicente. I want to talk to you just shortly afterwards. But to everybody that participated today, from Betsy, from Amanda, from Neil, from Desiree, thank you everyone for being here and having such brilliant questions. I have the best audience in the world. And we will talk to everybody soon. I hope you have a beautiful day. And that's all we got for today, ladies and gentlemen. Aloha. Thank you.