Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast, Psychedelic Science, twenty twenty five. Seekers of signal in the static allow me to introduce a voice forged in the alchemical fire of policy, purpose and paradox. Lewis Goldberg is not just a publicist. He's a linguistic locksmith, a master of messaging who doesn't just shape narratives. He whispers to the current underneath him with the war drums of old Washington echoing in his blood. He cut his teeth in the mythos of power, Clinton's campaign trail. Torcelli's tightropes, an ever calculating eye of a first lady named Hillary. But then, like any good archetypal wanderer, he turned toward the plant path, toward cannabis, toward psychedelics, toward the revolution happening beneath our feet. He didn't just pivot, he prophesized. In twenty fifteen, he helped launch KCSA's cannabis division, giving shape and story to an industry rising like smoke through the cracks of a crumbling paradigm. He co-hosts The Green Rush, a podcast that is part intelligence briefing, part esoteric transmission for the business minded psychonaut. And while some men worship quarterly reports, Lewis builds cathedrals in the stock ticker. rooting for the underdogs, channeling the sacred absurdity of Mets games, Jets heartbreaks, and the eternal optimism of Rutgers fans who believe against all odds that truth like victory can be summoned with enough heart. So today, as we stand at the threshold of Psychedelic Science, we welcome not just a strategist, but a conjurer of attention, a myth maker of market forces, a Blake and Bard, and a tailored blazer who reminds us that even in the most corporate corners of culture, something sacred still wants to break through. Give it up For Lewis Goldberg, thank you for being here. That was awesome. It was really beautiful. I love ChatGPT. It's so fascinating. It is amazing. And I know we're here to talk about psychedelics. Anything we want. But there is such an intersection between AI and this space between AI and neuroscience, AI and psychedelics that I love the tool and I use it daily. Yeah. I can tell that that that intro was yeah you fed it a lot of stuff about me and then it reflected it back in your voice yes uh and that was really fun and it's fun to it's uncomfortable to hear me talked about that way um but I'm appreciative of your art in delivering it and appreciative of what was written so it's pretty cool Thank you for that. I talk to a lot of people in psychedelics and there seems to be this merger between AI and psychedelics. In my opinion, it's almost like an evolution of language. We're beginning to see chat GPT help people talk more meaningfully. And in psychedelics, you have this newfound awareness that seems to be more meaningful. What are your thoughts on the intersection of AI and psychedelics? Well, I think that it's really interesting. Psychedelics is about neuroscience. It's about how these chemicals interact with our brain to allow us to have and achieve mystical experiences, meaningful experiences that can reshape the way that we perceive the world, both in the moment and in the future. And as you know about AI, the way that the computers are structured are in neural networks. So there is a level of similarity both in language and in structure. And while we think that we understand how these chemicals actually affect the brain, we don't. And while we think we understand how the neural networks in AI actually works, We don't. So it's really interesting. And I think one of the really cool things for me about both is they allow me to express my curiosity and go in unbelievable different paths. And as a storyteller, which is what my job is, Both have empowered me to be much more effective in different ways. I think psychedelics have helped me become more empathetic so that the person I'm talking to, I'm able to sit in their shoes and feel what they're feeling, reflect it back to them so that they understand that they are being heard. And then AI allows me to work faster. It has become a writing partner, not a replacement, but it is able me to to create the content and then to reshape it consistently and iterate much, much faster than I've ever been able to. yeah it's really well said I think it's also interesting to be in media and have all these tools with you I was wondering maybe if you could share a story about how psychedelics have helped you see what your role in in media is maybe we should tell people kcsa and what you do that of course I'm louis goldberg thank you I'm a partner I'm one of four owners of a public relations and investor relations firm called kcsa and for uh almost sixty years which is older than me We've been helping shape the public understanding about companies. And most of our work is in science and technology and finance. And a little more than ten years ago, I was a personal cannabis enthusiast, but I was exposed to the business of cannabis. We helped a company apply for the first medical license in New York State. And I learned the vertical nature of the industry. How is the plant grown? How is it processed? How is it transported? How is it financed? The security, the real estate, the entire, like it is a big industry. And I turned to my business partners and we had been working with banks and pharmaceutical companies and technology companies. I said, that is a multi-billion dollar industry that is in the birthing. Nobody is willing to go in there and do traditional public relations, financial investor relations. Let's go there. And they were like, are you crazy? Yeah, pretty much. But we did it right. They were willing to take a risk on me. Right. And we became very successful in the space. And a few years later, after reading Michael Pollan's book, I said to them, guys, This is even bigger. This is, you know, where cannabis is a multi-billion dollar industry. Psychedelics, because it is treating mental health, that's a multi-trillion dollar industry. Let's go there. And they said, well, you were right about that. We're willing to go with you. There wasn't even a moment's hesitation. And, you know, none of my business partners are psychedelic enthusiasts. They are supporters. They are definitively supporters, but they're not enthusiasts. But You know, so we went there and we have taken the vast majority of the companies in this space public. We took a tie life public. We took cyber in public. We launched field trip. And since twenty nineteen, we've been the agency of record for maps. We do the public relations for psychedelic science. And I'll tell you, OK, when we first started, we had. no exposure to the space. And I reached out to a guy named Ronan Levy. Ronan founded Field Trip, which is probably, I mean, it's a wonderful, sad story, but they're the second biggest brand in psychedelics. But I said, I really want to work for MAPS. And I was able to manifest it through lots of different ways and met Chris Lottlicher, who is the former executive director of MAPS, who has become a dear friend of mine. you know, met Rick Doblin and he understood that we were getting involved in this space not to make money. We're getting involved in space because we lost, the war on drugs has harmed millions and millions of people for fifty years, in part psychedelics was criminalized through a lack of proper communications. A lot of people hold Timothy Leary liable for that. For right or for wrong, the society wasn't ready for his message. And he scared the shit out of the straights. And I said, I can't let that happen again. That there is too much science that is going on to help too many people. And I have a responsibility to help shape the message so that we can help these companies get the money that they need from the capital markets to do the research, communicate to the regulators at both the state and federal level to get them to understand what's going on, and then communicate to the psychedelically naive and let them understand that they're They who are in pain can find relief and it is coming. I love that. It's a beautiful answer. You know, there's so much happening in the psychedelic space. One of the thorny issues that I kind of see is that some people think like the certification is taking the place of initiation. Now those words are kind of nebulous. You know what I mean by that? Like it's kind of a very slippery slope. There's a fundamental tension in the psychedelic community between those who want to medicalize and those who want to experience. Okay. um and and it is a real challenge of course because um while millions and millions of people in the united states have tried lsd or psilocybin um now we're going into ayahuasca um you know thousands yes are have done ibogaine and tens of thousands maybe hundreds of thousands have tried five meo um that's a minuscule portion of the the entire population of the united states they the the vast majority of people understand medicine yeah right well said and they know that if I have a headache I can take aspirin or I can take ibuprofen or I can take acetaminophen right and they trust for the most part that this is safe and efficacious because it has gone through the fda process and we'll take the politics of of the cdc and the fda out of this and but The experiential side is the Wu side, right? There are so many people who have done psychedelics, right? It is such a profound experience that they come back and they are in the blue. Yes. Right. Um, and if you haven't had that experience, it could be incredibly off putting. Right. Um, and. you know, there are millions of people who suffer from CNS disorders, you know, central nervous system disorders, PTSD, addiction, TBI. TBI is more of a physical disorder than a chemical disorder, but OCD, depression. Again, manic depression is also more of a chemical disorder. Okay, nice. Yeah, but more like OCD, right? Like the people who have to wash their hands all the time. Yes. That is not a chemical disorder. disorder behavioral it is a behavioral disorder that is often related to trauma right and what psychedelics do is allow you in a medical setting to revisit that now do I think that there's anything wrong with um going out and eating a fistful of mushrooms and going to a grateful dead show hell no I did it when I was young right that's wonderful and that is not what the the what mass was founded on which was to to medicalize mdma plus therapy right right it is not what compass pathways is doing which is using psilocybin and therapy right it is not what a tie is doing it is not what deluxe is doing it's not what all these companies are doing which is trying to find a path to get the people who need medicine, the medicine, and also couple it with therapy. Because the medicine is a door, right? The therapy is the way to get to where you need to get to. That's a beautiful answer. Thank you. Yeah. This is what I do for a living. I know. It's literally what I do for a living. So how do you, when you say like the woo, I think ineffable. Like a lot of people that have this idea of ineffable. Because it's ineffable, it's really hard to wrap a message around that. And it seems like that's what you're kind of tasked to do. It is. Can you tell us some strategies? Or what do you think about when I say ineffable? And then maybe you could apply a strategy. Ineffable is actually, I love the word. It literally means you can't describe it. You can't use words to describe this experience. Right, of course. So I don't. I just don't try. I surround it. And also, I actually try and meet the person I'm talking to where they are. If I am talking to a scientist, I do the best I can to use very technical language. I wouldn't say necessarily technical, but very descriptive and specific language. If I am speaking to a policymaker, I'm also very intentional in the language I'm using. If I'm speaking to an enthusiast, it's a very different conversation. It's much more heart-centered. Yeah. So I'm focused on meeting them where they are so that they can then be receptive to what I want them to hear. Because if I am speaking to a MAGA person about the power of psychedelics and I come to them and start talking about heart opening and the impact on acceptance of ecology and the environment, I may turn them off. Absolutely. Right. So if I'm talking to a person, I tend to talk to them about, you know, there are so many of our soldiers who have served overseas who become addicted to opioids and there is no good solution for them, but for Ibogaine and Ibogaine is a long a long lasting single use psychedelic, which allows that soldier who is suffering from PTSD to work through the pain of whatever that is so that they no longer are having a negative impact on themselves, their family, their community in the country, right? I talk to them, you know, where they are. I don't want to pull them or force them. It's much more like, who are you? What do you want? And how can I help you? I love it. Speaking of Ibogaine, shout out to Gareth Moxie and Debra Mash. I love you. It was fun talking to you yesterday. Oh, Deb Mash is awesome. Holy cow. We had a long conversation yesterday. Deb is, like, legit. She's serious. She is. And... You're with Moxie, too. That guy is... I don't know Gary. I'll introduce you to him. You'll love him. But Deb is amazing. And, you know, honestly, I'll tell you, it's like one of the gifts of working in this space is I get to meet all these awesome people who are having such... massive impact on people's lives. I would encourage you, if you don't know them, to talk to Tom Fiegel and Talia Eisenberg from Beyond. Beyond is a Mexican-based Ibogaine clinic that is doing amazing work with using Ibogaine to help. Help addiction, help PTSD, help. If you have pain that you can't find, you have psychic, spiritual, emotional pain that you have not been able to find this little bit before, I would encourage you to to go to beyond because uh it's a very intentional place it's beautiful I haven't been there yet but I'm you know I'm hoping to work with them yeah absolutely I think there's going to be some people at psychedelics from gabon like having the bowie tribe here that is going to come and It's really authentic to get to see people from the region where that plant comes from and moving on. You know, I got an interesting question. Sometimes I've been going through these ideas and it seems to me psychedelics comes in cycles. And I feel as if we're kind of in the late fifties entering the sixties. Like when you look at the chaos kind of going around and the move from medical into like spilling out into the artwork and stuff now, what are your thoughts on that? Is it cyclical? And are we at the fifties moving into the sixties? I don't actually have thought about this. Okay. Please tell me. Um, And I'm not sure the answer of where we are in the fifties and the sixties. In the late fifties and the sixties, there was this unbelievable acceptance, right? And curiosity. And then when we got into the mid to late sixties and then in the seventies, when the war on drugs began, psychedelics were demonized. Probably starting with Michael Pollan's book, there was this unbelievable, and it's called the psychedelic renaissance, right? But for the last two years, three years, the bloom is off the rose. I think the challenges that stemmed initially from Compass Pathways Phase II trials really hurt from a financial perspective. sucked all the money out of the room. And clearly last year's failure with the FDA by Lycos was a kick in the teeth to all of us. You know, there was if you had been here two years ago at Psychedelic Science in twenty three, the energy was just electric like everybody was sure that this was going to happen and that this was just the first of you know a series of dominoes to fall not only about psychedelics but just overall drug policy right and you know maps's failure really hurt and rick doblin talked about it this morning his plenary um but the reality is there is yet still hope yeah um because there are a tremendous amount of of companies doing research yeah there are many um drugs that are in phase two phase two phase three that are going one of them is going to knock down the door right it's gonna happen And that will then open the door for everybody else. But to take it from a cultural perspective. Yeah, please. Which is one of the things I really love. Okay. I think about Cheech and Chong. Ah, open smoke. Yeah. So they're not just, by the way, cannabis. They are drugs. Yeah. Like all kind of drugs. And if you think about Cheech's career, not Chong's career, but Cheech's career. I think parallels a large part of the way that um our culture has looked at drugs yeah they started in the fifty the late fifties in the early sixties as comedians drug comics right right and they were incredibly popular and they made their movies and they were incredibly popular um and then come the seventies they got less popular and cheat and they broke up right and cheech went and did straight mainstream yeah right he did mainstream he did nash uh not nash richards he did um one of those cops yeah one of those cops It wasn't a sitcom, but it was not procedural. And he did Tin Cup and he did all this stuff. And it was like drugs were out of favor. And as soon as cannabis became adult use in twenty twelve, he started to get more popular again and more popular again. And now, you know, they are back to being Cheech and Chong. And I really kind of like you could you could do this this graph of like Cheech's career versus cannabis or psychedelic acceptance. And it's on the uptick. That is a beautiful story. I never thought about it like that, but I bet you it maps on perfectly. I don't know perfectly, and I don't know if I'm right, but it's something I'm kind of crazy, so I think about it that way. Well, I'm glad that you're kind of crazy, because I think with language, too, how do you think psychedelics has changed your behavior with language? Well, I mean, full disclosure, I've been clean and sober from all substance use since twenty twenty. Okay. So I don't know that it has impacted me I don't know how I don't know. I mean, words have always been a tool for me, you know, and I'm really thoughtful about what I say, what I write and how I communicate. I think what psychedelics did for me was really allowed me to start to flex and work on my empathy muscle, which makes me, I think, more able to to connect with the person I'm talking to. But I don't know how it has changed my use of language. It may have in ways I don't know. I just I don't know. It's ineffable. You know, there was the governor was here today and he had a pretty powerful message. I was wondering if we could talk about that message. Sure. Can you would you be so kind as to tell the audience myself what the governor said today? You are all free. Freedom. Well, I think what and I didn't hear word for word what he said. I do know what what he said was that in Colorado, if you have been incarcerated for a drug crime related to a drug that is now legal in the state, you have been pardoned and you will be released as long as it is not a violent crime. Right. So if you were arrested for holding an ounce of mushrooms. be free. You know, if you were arrested for holding on to Ibogaine or other plant medicines, you are now free. And I think it is a huge move, not just for Colorado. Colorado as a state is amazing, right? So it is a, um, It is a progressive state, not in the way that you would think of the word that the way the word progressive has been used, but it is a forward thinking state. It was the first state in the country to allow for adult use cannabis at the same time that Washington state did. It has set up a medicalized psychedelics community infrastructure here, and they just started serving patients here. So it does not surprise me that Jared Bullis said, how can we keep people in jail for a crime that is now legal? It's wrong, and I think that's beautiful, and I think it will spread across the country to other states with leaders who are as forward-looking as him. I don't think it is the color of your shirt. It's not a red-blue issue. It's a justice issue. You look at Texas, for example. They just passed a law that is putting fifty million dollars towards Ibogaine research. You don't get rhetoric in Texas. Ken Abbott, the governor of Texas, is a dyed-in-the-wool conservative. He has been exposed to enough people who suffer from opioid use disorder and said, how can I, as a God-fearing man, deny them access to a plant that was put on this planet by God? I think we all know the answer to that. He didn't. He's actually supporting it. Rick Perry, the former governor of Texas, is not somebody who is an enthusiast. He is not somebody who uses intoxicating substances. He said, I can't allow our veterans who have been so honorable in serving our country not be served by our country. Yeah. Truly an amazing time to see what happened in Texas with eyeball game. It almost happened in Kentucky. And we see all these things. Have you talked to Brian Hubbard? I haven't, but I would love to. I would encourage you to talk to my team. I will. They will set him up for you. Brian's awesome. And he was in Kentucky. Okay. Very nice. Well, he almost got it across the finish line in Kentucky and then he pivoted. So Brian's awesome. Yeah. And he's just awesome. yeah I've heard so much cool stuff about him from so many amazing people I'm like how do I how do I get to talk to this guy but I think I found my bridge here yes you know I I know you have um you have a lot of things to do but I have one last question and you can ask me a couple okay fantastic okay so um if you had to if you had to craft a campaign slogan for humanity's future with psychedelics what would it be breathe breathe okay tell us about that look the the there is a real problem with the way I think that most people view the world which is that they see it as you and me right we right and that there is this um and they also look at themselves as this is my mind and this is my body and they are not connected right and um I think I think one of the things that psychedelics teaches teaches people that um connection teaches people is that we are all together one right um and for me I have to remember to be in my body right yeah I am not my mind and by the way my mind is both here and literally in my gut because I have the enteric brain down here so if I am able to slow down and take a slow deep breath in It centers me, and I can hear what I need to hear. And when I can hear it, then I can do it, right? So if we can all just take a slow, deep breath together, things get a lot easier. I love it. I heard a great quote that said, the difference between illness and wellness is I and we. Yeah. It's pretty profound when you start thinking about the way words are crafted. Look, addiction is a disease at its core of isolation, right? Yes. But recovery is based on community. Like one cannot be healthy alone. There's a difference between loneliness and solitude. Solitude is being comfortable in your own body by yourself, but nobody wants to be by themself forever. We are as animals, right? Communal pack animals. We need to touch and be with other people. And we need to connect. So I love that the difference between illness and wellness is I and... and we get goosebumps when I think about it yeah you know it's profound to think about the idea of just breathing and slowing down and illness and wellness and all these things that are happening around us today let me jump over here to another one sure what's the truth you've learned through this work that you would never say at a press release oh that's an easy one I need help that's a tough one no it isn't it's an easy one is it an easy one why my god most people don't want to do it well I can't speak for anybody else but me right but um I think we're all taught to be strong, right? And the definition of strength is the ability to do one by, to be able to do by oneself. I don't, that was not me. I tried that forever. And the reality is I am way stronger when I'm with others and when I can lean on somebody else, right? Like, you know, there's a saying that the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. That's bullshit. A chain is only as strong as all of the links together. Because if that weak link isn't supported by all of the other links in the chain, then the whole chain falls apart. That weak link needs to ask for support and for help from other people so it can be strengthened. So yeah, that for me is asking for help. Asking for help is honestly a sign of strength. To know where I end and you begin and how you can help me to be what I need to become. Yeah, it takes a lot of courage too on some level. Yeah, fear is a liar. Woo, break that down for us. Fear is a liar. Do you ever see the movie Animal House? Of course, John Belushi. But there's a scene in Animal House where one of the characters has the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other. Most of us have that devil on our shoulder telling us, if you do this, this bad thing is going to happen. If you do that, something bad is going to happen. And it wants us to not. To not be authentic, not to be honest, not to be present. It wants us to listen to the lie that it's telling us of the consequence of not. And the reality is that lie is worse, by the way, than whatever is going to happen. So for me, I just have to remind myself that I just have to be present and honest and here. And it's all going to work out like I'm going to be fine. yeah it's a brilliant point I think most people whether it's addiction or other things it's the fear you make up all these excuses around why you can't do it or why you're not good enough to do it but at the end of the day I think that's fear it's fear of actually touching the person that you really are trying to become the very best version of yourself and accepting who you are and I think that's the gifts that psychedelics can bring is that they can look in the mirror and like what they see right right and that's a gift You know, psychedelics seems to have this sort, at least for me in my experience, it seems to have this ability to turn you into the observer. And you can walk through the places without the shame and guilt really pushing on you. Have you ever noticed that? No, I can't say I've had that experience. I understand what you're saying. Okay. But look, especially with MDMA, I think one of the things about my understanding of MDMA is, especially for somebody who is suffering from PTSD, is it allows them to re-experience the traumatic event from a remove and to move it from the frontal lobe into the back. Okay. So that it... it is no longer present, right? Because somebody who's suffering from PTSD, the shit that happened to them is happening to them constantly, constantly. So, um, I get it. I just haven't been called to it in my experience. It's beautiful. Let me sum it up here with this final question. And that is what's the message beneath the message you spent your career sending the one only that psychonauts might hear. Be here now. Beautiful. Yeah. Cool. Be here now. This was beautiful. I'm really grateful for your time and thank you for everything you're doing here. Thank you for allowing me. Yeah. And that's all we got for today, ladies and gentlemen. I hope you had a beautiful day. Talk to you next time. Aloha. Are those all the people who watched?