ladies and gentlemen psychedelic science I was walking about and who do I see but one of the coolest people that I've met virtually but never in person the one and only keith heiserling keith what's going on man not much george I was very glad to be able to meet you in person I feel like we already know each other but it's great to meet in person as well Yeah, we were just talking briefly about LinkedIn being a place where you can meet so many cool people virtually. But psychedelic science has really been a place where I've got to come and actually meet the people that I've spoken to for so long. It's amazing. I've seen Susan Guner out here, Christian, Diego, Jack Gorselin, Noah, Alex Detmering. So many people are out here just doing their thing. It's a beautiful arena. Agreed. So Keith, when I came out here, I was a little bit overwhelmed and I decided to ditch my whole plans that I have and just sort of kind of go out and start looking at talks and listening to people. What have you thought about the whole convention so far? It's already Friday. yeah it's been flying by I too have just pretty much been wandering wandering around I've tried to go to a couple talks and been intercepted on the way by people like yourself george who I want to see and then end up talking and miss the talk or show up at the end and try to grab the the speakers so it's been a very fluid um fluid couple days but it's been very productive and I feel very grateful to have been here and being able to meet everybody yeah me too it's there's so many people here with so many different points of view I kind of feel for a long time science and spirituality have been at odds a little bit but there's everybody here and everybody's talking about it figuring some things out what's your thoughts yeah I have been thinking that maybe psychedelic science isn't exactly the right name right in a way that maybe it should be psychedelic science and spirituality or or just something a little broader um there is there's plenty of good science being presented and like you george I feel like our mission is to to in this modern time is to not lose the essence and the benefits of scientific thinking and and use technology for good but at the same time not over rely on it and allow the other non-physical um aspects of of life to to to come back to be side by side and at the table with with science instead of it it's not either or right it's not either or It's interesting you say that, because first off, it's beautiful, and second off, it echoes all the work you're doing. For our audience out here who may not know, maybe you could shed a little light on what it is you're doing. Sure, yes. I'm a physician, I'm a doctor, and I run a psychedelic research center in Santa Monica. And we do clinical trials of psychedelic medications for mental health conditions like depression and anxiety. It is primarily working with pharmaceutical companies who are trying to get FDA approval of the medicines. And I feel strongly that getting FDA approval of, say, psilocybin or any of the psychedelic medicines would be a very important thing to provide. access to to psychedelic therapy for patients um but it is only a small sliver of what is interesting and important in the realm of psychedelics the medical medical applications of psychedelics I would I want to see the benefits realized for for patients and for society but yeah but um uh there and I think in in some of the you know developed countries the the path through medical testing and and medical approval of psychedelics is is seen as a way to you know get started and um it's something that most people I think probably find acceptable but the potential benefits of psychedelics go well beyond the medical applications and and I I really am very excited to try to lend my efforts to increasing access to psychedelics in that realm as well yeah I think you are lending an incredible hand to it like you you and your whole team are doing amazing work down there thank you you know on the way in earlier today I was talking with a friend of ours matt zeman and he was telling me about some ceremonies at end of like end of life ceremonies they had recently had a gentleman that was like eighty six years old and he came in with his family to share like the last you know time of his life together yeah That to me like I get goosebumps when I think about it If we can start seeing the end of life or these traumatic moments he had mentioned someone that had cancer stage four and she wanted to come in with her family and have a ceremony and Celebrate life as a as a process. Yeah, like I think we're moving in that direction. What are your thoughts on? Can we get there? Can we get more people to see that? Well my my thoughts about kim can we get there are mostly revolve around a greater sense that I have just personally where I'm at in life um that you know there's there's a lot of stuff most things are probably out of my control I just they're all just here right there There's the arc of the history of humanity that is just slowly unfolding. And sometimes if you, you know, depending on if you zoom in on certain times or pull back, right? Like if you look at where psychedelics are today or this month versus, you know, overall. And also like, you know, George, you and I were just talking before we went on air about how If you pull back and also think about psychedelics in their proper, I think, proper context, which is that, you know, a lot of the things that are happening with psychedelics are are. Happening in related ways in the world in society in culture in general. It's really it. It's not like this is happening in isolation. There's this is a time. One of those times, I think, in history where. Where things are going to do some sort of a phase shift. And I hope I sincerely hope that whatever is shifting. doesn't end up, you know, those can be difficult times for people. Many innocent people go through suffering or may be harmed. I really hope that that can be minimized. But it does feel like a time where things are speeding up. Like myself and my colleagues were saying, wow, it feels like things are speeding up. But we feel much more grounded and confident in our mission so we're slowing down in a way and and just being like well we know we know why we're here we know what we're supposed to be doing we're doing it as best we can and everything else is accelerating around us so you know it's a strange time and and with all risks there's opportunities and hoping that the risks won't be too bad and the opportunities will turn to be good for everyone It's so well said, you know, with AI and psychedelics, especially like the bubble you and I travel in. It seems that it's just so fast and so quick and things are always changing. But I see so much positive traction out there. You know, you have Texas that kind of just passed the Ibogaine. Although, you know what I heard? I heard that the Texas that they legalized Ibogaine or they got, I'm sorry, they didn't legalize Ibogaine. They got a large funding for Ibogaine. Yes. Thank you. But I heard they also took away THC products. Did you hear about that? Oh, there was some, but a separate. It was a separate, yeah. I think it was a separate piece of legislation, yeah. I mean, that's how it's, I mean, I live in California. Okay, me too. And we're, right, we're, I have a lot of friends and colleagues and I try to help always. I say, if I can help in any way, they're trying to work on policy related to psychedelics in California. Okay, nice. And I've been reluctantly involved in political and policy things in the past. I say reluctantly just because it's such hard work. Of course. I have such respect for the people that are trying to work on policy. You talk about needing a long view. You really do. But, you know, like currently in California, if you if you do surveys of people, there's there's a pretty good support for the idea that psychedelics could be helpful to society. But when you think about trying to actually get a law passed in California or any state, whether it's state, local, federal, there are so many random things that are kind of about know politics is people politics is people and so it's people and people have feelings and ideas that differ and that's a beautiful thing but it's not like rational worries it's not like well here are all the good pros and cons and then we're a computer we say well the pros are more than the cons so it passes you know there's a lot of like very complex things that come into play that don't have anything to do with psychedelics so yeah so yeah I think that that just shows that that uh you know it's it's not like there isn't necessarily some grand understanding behind some of these things it's just that the way politics works is you gotta get lucky and maybe someone who's influential has a personal you know experience that leads them to be supportive and they're able to to guide it through yeah so you know it's it's a it's a crazy thing and texas is ahead of california at the moment which is really strange because you would think california I think it would be the opposite so who go figure I don't know yeah it's interesting to see and think about the different states something here in denver like I was outside the the conference and they had a they had people with a booth they're selling like mushroom gummies and like people are lighting up cannabis on the street know I think it's a double-edged sword like I love the fact that it's that it's decriminalized I think that's really awesome but I I think on some level It opens the door to getting products that are less than, less than, you know what I mean? And maybe that's part of it though. I don't think, maybe you can't, maybe the people that are going to find these products need to start doing some research and figuring out who's reputable, who's not. And maybe the idea, and maybe this is a bigger part of the policy is this idea that we can be safe all the time is sort of flawed. I understand that we need to be safe. Like, and I'm for harm reduction and I'm for safety. but it seems that you're never going to be safe and there's going to be people out there that are purely for profit or trying to do some things out there so I see both sides of it yeah you know what are your thoughts there's just in general yeah in general it's very hard to simplify yep in the adult modern world there aren't many clear black athletes so true there's so much gray so When you're trying to craft a policy, I'm sure I see what they're trying to do. Try to create an environment that encourages the responsible things and discourages. But you can never eradicate some action or behavior. It's just probably not possible. One thing I was, I was thinking yesterday and today, which I was saying to a couple of people this morning. Because they were, you know, people were saying, well, it's your, what's the biggest impression you've had so far of the conference? And for me, I think it's that there, I sense a huge energy around and under. Ibogaine at the moment. It's a very interesting energy in that there is quite a bit of interest in the science and could it be a medicine for treatment in the medical system and how would you deal with the potential cardiac complications that may come along and etc etc and then at the same time I just feel this really strong and this is this is true for all of the traditional psychedelics of course but this feels like there's something you know particularly Um, unique kind of like, with ayahuasca, there's a very specific. I feel a sense of just a huge specific type of history, but ayahuasca and I feel the same thing. With with and I feel those forces of the, you know, the indigenous aspects of. they it feels like they're they're they're holding their ground and they're really trying to to stand up a bit now and more and come really try to come to the table um and you know counter some of the commercialization plans and and it it's that seems I mean that I I want to support that I it's not even that I want to support that it just feels right and natural yeah um but at the same time I also know that the train has left the station and you know again I don't know that it's going to be possible to or even beneficial to try to prevent right so but it almost feels like there's been this like debate and dance of like the pharmaceutical companies and the indigenous right people and they've been there been two sides and both have been kind of progressing but they haven't come together to actually like hash it out or god forbid fight it out yeah not yet and it almost feels like maybe this iboga and ibogaine is going to be the place where that where there's more of a direct engagement and and I really hope that that could lead to to something a better in general for psychedelics yeah better balance and and you know a cooperation and a coalition between the the the variety of different stakeholders to try to come up with something that would just be good for all involved and in particular you know really like ingrains her respect for where the medicines have come from, while at the same time is open to modern science, perhaps, you know, taking some of the knowledge and advancing it hand in hand maybe with, but I don't know, it may not play out and it may turn out to be just a big fight. I hope not. And, you know, so, but it's, I don't know. I just, that feels like an energy there. Yeah. I think it's a beautiful point. And yeah, One of the reasons I think psychedelics has had a problem is it's difficult to measure subjective things. And so when we try to get into the labs and we try to figure out, okay, yes, but why? It's very difficult to figure that out. But iboga comes in as like, I work. I work and they're like yeah but why don't worry I work watch this I know and it's so undeniable there is something about it right there's some and not even like at that level but you're touching on an aspect of what I feel about it it's just like I I bogus like you know um the history of it is like it's a pra it feels part like this we've done noble it does being noble like yeah like we are here we've been here and you know mess with us at your risk right it's like threatening not threatening not aggressive in any I don't feel aggression but I do feel like like hey you know if yeah we deserve respect and and we're we're gonna try to we're ready to defend ourselves yeah necessary we're proud it's a proud thing and so and I respect I respect that but but yeah you're right and um so you know it's yeah I think I mean subjective is subjective like right you try you can't take objective measures and try to assess subjective it's kind of silly to try but but the biggest thing for me that like underlying all like we were talking about like what if what like instagram saying you can't talk about psychedelics right linkedin can you talk are they going to say you can't talk about psychedelics and we were saying that that we could have a very productive conversation and never use the word psychedelics and talk about exactly what we want to talk about because psychedelics are an amazing case study one of the best there is of course but nonetheless it's it's not about psychedelics as much as that psychedelics open the door to a variety of things that are what I'm really interested in what I really think can help the world you know that has a better balance of you know the objective measurements and scientific world view is one slice of what we live in and there are limits to what it can explain and what we can use those tools for and to say that the things that we can't explain currently with science are not important or don't exist or are in our imagination is harmful and not helpful and really just doesn't make any sense to someone who you know, who lives and has experiences, and the experiential part is very valid. So, you know, a wider, more holistic view of reality that isn't just firmly rooted, entirely limited to the materialistic is what interests me the most, and psychedelics are a way that it, like, it demonstrates it or gives you the experience that can open you to that. Some people are aware without psychedelics, but psychedelics are a good tool for that. And I think that's what um you know it's it's not I was gonna say you know sometimes you're like well can psychedelics save the world I think nothing's gonna nothing's gonna save the world or not I mean it's that just doesn't no one's coming to save us no way it's us we we're gonna do it or we're gonna not and it's not so binary anyway and and even if humans disappear it's just going to keep on going without us you know sadly or maybe you know maybe that's what maybe that's what has to happen I have no idea I hope not I hope not but uh yeah you know we we don't need we we need we don't need to we can have we can talk about the important things even if someone told us you can't say that right it's all still there Right. Yeah, it's interesting to think about the authoritarian part of it. You know, maybe that's something that happens. Maybe, you know, sometimes when we look at addiction, like it is a pretty big, like a thirty two billion dollar industry, you know, and there are a lot of entrenched people and there's a lot of livelihoods and there's There's institutions built around it. Do you think that there is, like, is there, I hope there's not a fight, but on some level, maybe there can be a coming together of the two, like, can they find a path to work together instead of it having to be like, we're not doing this? The only way we can make any progress is working together. I think often these days about how some of the biggest challenges I think we're facing, they're all planetary level challenges. They're not natural challenges. They're not something that the nations serve a purpose I don't necessarily think we should have no Nations um I think there's there's nothing wrong with being patriotic it's very healthy patriotism having a strong sense of like a heritage and a culture at a place but it's it's not the most important thing and nationalism never really has never really been a good thing is usually just leads to conflict um but you know we need more of a an understanding that we're all in this together and and to work at the most core levels there are all those are our deep core right issues that are common to the planet not even just humans and so psychedelics and like addiction which is my specialty was my main medical specialty we often talk about how like you Listen, if someone is having, is out of control drinking and they're driving drunk and they're losing their job, right? You need to focus on the drinking behavior to stabilize things, right? Because they may die or something. So it's all about focusing on the substance at the start. But that's just the substance use is just a symptom. That is what the tip of the iceberg above the water, you see that. The real issue is all below, whatever it is, and it's different for every person. Sometimes it's a traumatic thing or whatever it is. You know, I think there is much more understanding in the modern addiction therapy world at the moment that, you know, yes, it is important. It used to be just entirely focused on you need to not use abstinence from the substance. That's all that matters, right? No. So they have much more of an understanding of that. But there still are some places where there's some limitations in conceptualization and But it is getting better. Because I remember way back when, just first starting with addiction medicine, and after you talk to enough people, you realize that when you first look at their life, you're like, it's chaos. And they're doing all these drugs that are harming them. Why would they do that? It's so irrational. Or are they crazy? But then you get the greater context of their life and their situation. And unfortunately for them, where they're at at the moment, the most rational thing to do is use the substance right they're holding their entire life together with this like you know duct tape of the drug or alcohol and if they pull that off without proper support everything falls apart and see they're in a bind where they're like actually the most logic if if I I realized like if I was in their circumstances I would probably do the drug too yeah so you you that doesn't mean it's not an excuse or it doesn't absolve anyone of individual responsibility to try to be a good person and to try to work to be better but you have to take that context because if you just try to get them to remove the crutch which it is a crutch right right you throw the crutch away without something else to support them they're they're not gonna swim they're gonna sink you know so and psychedelics are are perfect for that that's it's so it's a great example of how it really just pushes through like that pushes through the surface level things to the lower things. And that's why I think there's so much, you know, amazing potential for working with addiction and substance use disorders with psychedelics. Man, it's such a great answer. It blows my mind, too, to think that for a long time and maybe with good intentions, we really worked on solving the symptoms. Like, hey, this is the symptom right here. But with a newfound awareness, it seems that you can get to the underlying problems and that is where real work is being done. Especially if we go back to Iboga for a moment, they're having incredible rates of helping people, like, eighty percent once they begin a process with Iboga and relatively short know obviously there's it's not a magic bullet and it's not going to be one session but there's over a period of time you can use it yeah and in some of the some of the testimonies I get from people are like I figured out why I'm doing it yeah and I don't need to do that anymore yeah it's amazing to think they're changing the whole neuroplasticity figures out how many people do the clinical trials with psychedelics and at the end of all of it they'll say I'm so glad I did this. It helps so much. And I hope to never do this again. Yeah. You know, they're like, there is a right, you know? Right. Yeah. And I think so, you know, sometimes that's clearly important, but of course you're totally right. Like treatments that just ameliorate like, so, you know, I work in behavioral health and mental health, but I'm also just a regular general medical doctor by my primary training. So like if, if you're a medical doctor, um, And there's a fever, you know, you go, yeah, here's some Tylenol, maybe make you feel a little better. But, but you really, what the doctor's thinking is what's causing the fever? What's this? Right. Is it something that's going to kill them? Or is it, is it mild? Do we do, you, you would prefer to treat the cause of the fever. So the fever goes away. Yeah, you give them something to feel better until the fever, until the underlying thing gets addressed and identified. So just making people feel less sad when they have depression, it would be much better to get to the cause. Right. I think for me anyway, and I can only speak through my own lens, but my relationship with psychedelics has really broadened my awareness of my relationship to the world. I think that's a big part of behavior and mental illness. I don't even know if I like mental illness. Maybe there's a better word or something along those lines. When I see patients for the first time, eventually I usually ask them, do you consider yourself... an addict or you know an alcoholic and just just to see what they say and I always said I'm not going to ask you a lot of trick questions but this is one of them where I'm asking it for a reason, which is that, you know, I don't really use those terms with patients. We say alcohol use disorder or substance use disorder, but it is important. Some patients will say, yeah, I'm an addict, you know, I know. And then other patients are like, I'm not comfortable with that term. Words are powerful. They are important, but you don't need to, but they're just words. You don't need to like hold on to it if it's not important. productive or helping the person switch up the words call it whatever you want to call it I don't care what I care about is what you actually do and what we actually do not what we call it but I'd like to agree on what we could call it so that I you know so you're not in the back of your head I'm not going to do what this guy says because you call me that name and I'm like I'm not right by your name I just got to get our you know come to an agreement on the terminology so but yes psychedelics again it's this isn't specific to psychedelics psychedelics just happen to be you know very uniquely suited for us but but that is I think the task in in life in general is just kind of understanding who you are and why you're here and how you're supposed to you know make a difference and for some people that difference is on a big stage and in others it's on you know quote unquote a smaller stage but a lot of times probably those small things are really what make it the most difference in the long run you know just being a good parent or member of your family or community or whatever. And knowing yourself and better understanding where you're, like you said, your place in the grander, you know, the fabric of life and humanity and the world. And that's just a general task that we're all supposed to do each time, you know, each time around. And psychedelics can be very helpful. for that if you do it the right way. I love so much of that. If I come back to words for a minute, the idea when we label people, sometimes that becomes an identity for them. Like, you're an addict, you're an abuser, you have PTSD. Well, we all do. That's what I'm trying to say. I let them label themselves. I don't want to label them. But if they have a label that they're using to express a code word for their identity, that's important to know. But you're absolutely right. I don't want to label them. Right. this label what if do you think we could get to a place where instead of like ptsd we got to like um like ptgo like post-traumatic growth opportunity you know like a rite of passage like if we if we saw it if those people could see themselves as a rite of passage like yeah look you're bleeding you're crawling you've lost everything but congratulations you made it I know now you're one of us you know that yes I think about this a lot okay cool this is an example I think of again like whether you want is when you look at a life you can either zoom in or zoom back and and which is most important well you know okay right now if you were like standing on my toe george right like george come on like that's pretty important it's just in the moment but right I don't want you know I don't want my toes but like if I zoomed back to my entire life this one moment of someone standing is it really that important right is it defining no so um uh yes right like the truth of the matter is that um uh these things happen for a reason in a way I don't think that there's like you know a guy with a beard and a you know up there just like planning it out for us like the principal of school or anything but But they do for, you know, happen for some reason or at the very least, if we're lucky, we can make meaning, make things meaningful, you know, make make things good or bad that happened to us meaningful. Right. They are growth opportunities. It is a little hard. to say that to people when they're in the thick of it, right? Sometimes when they're in the thick of it, they don't want to hear that. And so you have to be a little bit, you know, gentle with how you bring that up. But that is absolutely true, right? If it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger, I guess, is one way to think about it. And so many good things emerge from, like, I often think I have some patients who have um alcoholism who are really far into recovery as they call it now and um and even like in alcoholics anonymous sometimes people will ask me or I'll ask people what do you know about aa and then look at the twelve steps and you know the first three steps of aa about like you know powerless and needing some you know higher power those are the the first three ones that are really like about the addiction and then the rest of them are kind of things that that you you might just like the boy scouts might have or something that are just like kind of nice thing make amends to people you've harmed or be of service right like they're actually just things that are nice things that good people probably would agree would be good to do right And so I've had so many people who look, who will say, you know, when I look back, you know, I really wish I didn't have to go through all that. It wasn't fun. I feel bad that I hurt people, but, but it's in a way it's a gift because I mean, you know, and I'll say that I'm like, I've never, I don't have a drug or alcohol problem. Why? I have no idea. I'm not better than anyone else, but, but maybe I've missed opportunities for growth, right? but I'm just kind of cruising through life and I'm getting behind no one's telling me I need to like examine myself deeply and change so I go all right I'll just keep trucking but for them you know it hits the fan and if they if they if they get through it then they look back and they're like there's a lot of things about me that I might have never gotten to that are wonderful things now that only happened because I went through that and But you've got to convince them that you've just got to hang in there long enough so that when you zoom back, you're like, wow, look at this. It's a hard one, particularly when they're suffering in the moment. Man, it's so brilliantly put. When I look back on some of the tragedies in my life, first off, if I could choose, I would have never chose to do them. And I wouldn't choose anybody else to do them. But that being said, it was those tragedies that allowed me to be who I am. And I think when you get to a spot where you can look back and make sense of it, after the emotion is sort of wavered, you really realize, oh my gosh, that was a transformational moment in my life. And because of that, I'm going to love more than I ever have before. yeah those opportunities are there yeah the hard ones I think are the hardest ones I think are when you know like when when you have hurt people yeah those bad times when you know so like people who who you know, cause an accident, driving intoxicated, and they have to live with that forever. And it's, that's a tough one. Or when you've been hurt by other people, right? Like a lot, like I was thinking about how, you know, people can be, you can have a tsunami or an earthquake or a natural disaster and people are hurt and harmed it's terrifying and people certainly can have PTSD even as a result rate those events but then terrorism and war or individual violence between people yeah, this is so much more damaging because it's like Someone did that. Yes. Oh, and another person and particularly someone close to you. If the family watch out. Yeah, that's that's the deepest, the deepest wound. And there's just a whole nother layer. So, you know, there'll never be a world without challenges and adversity and there'll be, you know, disasters or famines or but but individual but but violence by humans I really feel like hopefully we could outgrow that someday yeah not I don't know do you think it's getting better though like when I like let's take for example like family abuse like you know when you look back not that long ago it seems to me that perhaps it used to be everybody would spank their kids or, you know, you'd get the belt or something like that. But it seems a lot, lot less. And not only that kind of abuse, but like sexual abuse or trauma. Like, I think it's getting better. I think we're spiraling upwards. So it seems like it repeats, but maybe it just, it spirals up and we're getting better at it. I think that one of the, what I've heard from people who have had experiences like this is, they will say that another aspect of it that's harmful and really hurtful is um that there is that you know they'll be embarrassed about yeah having happened that there's a stigma and shame victim right like how could you be embarrassed you didn't do anything for that to happen to you it happened to you it's not how why would you be embarrassed you know why I think they would be I think they would be because it brings shame on their family yeah you know and you're gonna break oh if you say this you're gonna hurt your family yeah and so I do think that there's a that there are some advances there's more openness to talk about things publicly right because the truth of the matter is like like you know everybody thinks that something doesn't isn't going to happen to them or doesn't happen to anyone they know it's a it's a distant thing that you can just put out of your mind but that's not true right when when people do open up you realize that Everyone knows someone who's had one of these things happen and they're like a real person, you know, who you know and love. And so I do think that that's definitely getting better. There's still problems. And that is an important one because the only way to make advances in general would be to be able to be in productive dialogue with about an issue. So hopefully that's getting better, at least as a first step. yeah I think so and I think psychedelics are playing a huge part in people being comfortable talking about things that have happened they realizing that the things that happen happen to a lot of people and psychedelics just makes you more aware of things going around in the world right now so that's one of the big I think i know I've been talking to a lot as like therapists that are using psychedelics and they tell me about how talk therapy it used to work but when they use talk therapy in conjunction with psychedelics it seems to have profound effects Yeah, we were talking about this the other day. I think there's two things. I don't have any scientific proof of this. I don't know how to prove it scientifically. Two impressions that I have from psychedelic therapy are, number one, and we saw this and we did a study of psilocybin in alcohol use disorder. So we witnessed this, I believe. um you know when you tell like I could be a I have a certain authority as a doctor I can tell someone right you should stop drinking you need to see I'd recommend you stop drinking um and I have to say that a lot because it's a responsible thing to say that to people but but the initial anyone me too right if if you told me to do something my initial reaction is like who are you you know you push back that's kind of a natural yeah of course right So, when we did the alcohol trial, we did not mandate that people set a goal of abstinence from alcohol. We didn't tell them what their goal should be. I mean, we said, we want you to be safer to point out that some of these behaviors are dangerous, not healthy. But we want this to be a way for you to explore and examine and potentially come to a more healthy relationship with alcohol you and alcohol your relationship you know maybe what parts do you want to change about that to be more healthy and safe and um despite the fact that we were so open about it quite a few of the patients went through the psilocybin session and they came out and they were like I gotta quit drinking. But it came from them. It came from within. It was there the whole time. It's down deep in there. But they're afraid of it for a variety of ways because they're using alcohol to cope. And they're like, if I give it up, how will I cope? But down deep, they know that they should quit drinking. They know all the bad things. they have this massive layer of like protection and denial set up and if you start to attack it from the top it's gonna be a long battle to get down to that thing and they're gonna fight you to the death yeah so but but with the psychedelic therapy it was them the part of them stepped to the front and said we need to quit drinking and so that's so much more more empowering and then the second thing that I feel like there's some element of is that, you know, just doing psychedelic therapy, or just taking the plunge and like the leap of faith and, and it's a challenge. And it's sometimes it's a challenging experience, the ordeal of it. Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's a passage. Yep. You know, if you, they drop you off in the desert, and you either make it back, and you're like a grown person, or you don't make it, right? That's it, right. So you know just sometimes it's I feel like it's less sometimes people do get insights and they're like wow it's blank I've never put the dots together right this is the secret to the universe and now I can live healthily but sometimes I feel like the content isn't as important like a bunch of random things could could emerge and it's less important that those are the things than that You went through, right? It's the rite of passage. It's the hero's journey. It's just an archetypical, you know, legend, mythological thing that we all have to go through in some way in our life, one way or the other. And that's what you're providing them with. You're giving them the quest, and they need to make it through the quest to get the other side, and then they can be strong. Then they realize, hey, I'm strong enough to do it. I can do it. Whatever it is, I can do it. I can do life. um so I don't know how to study that person even whether it's worthwhile studying maybe just leave it be be what it is and not not everything needs to be in a research paper yeah it's so well said you know I'm always reminded of joseph campbell and psychedelics are they've been an incredible part of my life and keith I want to say thanks man like this has been an awesome conversation my pleasure you are an awesome guy thank you likewise it takes on to no one I guess you know but hey people let's say people are watching right now keith and they want to figure out how to reach out to you maybe they know someone that could use some help or maybe they just want to chit chat with you where can they find you well on linkedin me up on linkedin or I do have my own personal website that's pretty small but you can contact me there and it's spiritualscientist.me.me so you could look there or just google and I've got my work you know website or work emails and so any of those work just look me up by google Nice. Ladies and gentlemen, go to the show notes. Check out Keith. That's all we got. Aloha.