Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. I hope your day is going beautiful. I hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back. Ladies and gentlemen, Douglas Lynham. a warrior who became a monk, a monk who became a teacher, and a teacher who became a guide through the labyrinth of money. But these are only shadows of the truth. Doug Lanham is the paradox incarnate, forged in war, dissolved in silence, resurrected through numbers. He has seen the void behind wealth, the shimmering illusion of value, the theater of greed where souls are sold by the pound. And instead of fleeing, he stepped deeper to tame the money monster, to bind the demon in gold chains, to show us that currency is nothing but a mirror of consciousness. Doug Lynham, thank you so much for being here today. How are you? I'm great, George. It's an honor to be here. So excited to be on your show. Yeah, man. I'm stoked you're here. You've had an incredible journey from service member, from Marine, to monk, to money manager, to psychedelics. That's a heck of a journey. It's been a wild ride. It has been a wild ride. What? Does it feel like three lifetimes, Doug? You've lived three completely different personas. Maybe you could tell me what that's like, man. Well, you know, it's my life. So I don't know what it's like to be anything else. I look at my resume and I'm sort of shocked sometimes. I'm going, oh, did I really do all that? Is it really even, you know, maybe it's just my ADHD, you know, keeps me bouncing around into different, I just get bored and got to try new things. And maybe I'm just an explorer, an adventurer who wants, just can't seem to settle in. But for whatever reason, I just keep seem to be finding all these different cool things tracks of life and uh and yeah it's been it's been a fun ride I have to say it's been a hell of an adventure yeah it sounds like you shout out to joshua moyer joshua I love you man how's the new music going say what's up to josh so let's talk about the first transition from marine to monk like that is two radically different ideas of like going out and conquering or going out and serving and then maybe serving in a different capacity a different capacity well tell me about that transition Well, I think, I mean, I guess part of it was, you know, why I went into the Marines in the first place was mostly to try to impress my father and prove I was a manly man who could do manly things and, It didn't really work. He didn't seem to budge the needle on that front. At that point, I realized I didn't need to spend my career projecting my anger issues on strangers around the world and blowing people up. I realized that high explosives and unresolved anger issues were a bad combination. Maybe I needed to find a different life choice. I was going to quit the Marines, what would be a higher calling in my mind? I love the Marines in many ways. I love the camaraderie or the sense of service. But where can I get the same discipline? Where can I get all the positives of the Marines without so much of the negatives, without the killing people part? And so I had a mentor, you know, who I always had, I wasn't raised in a spiritual house. I was raised in a kind of, I wouldn't say kind of an anti-spiritual household. So I always had this deep philosophical and spiritual background. searching that I was doing and so I I wanted to figure out the meaning of life and why are we here and what's it all about and so I did my undergraduate in like philosophy and mathematics and I went to this funky little liberal arts school called st john's college in santa fe new mexico and they have a campus in annapolis maryland as well But it's called The Great Book School, and you basically study the entire canon of Western civilization from beginning to end from original source texts. And I just figured, well, maybe all these great minds, if I read all these great minds, they'll tell me what life is all about. And it turns out they all have a different opinion, and it's just kind of this jumble in your head. It helped in a lot of ways. It gave me great training academically. And then I kind of went to the Marines to kind of round things out with sort of the more visceral physical experience. Right. And then the monastery was sort of like, I didn't have any faith going into it. I went looking for God. I thought if I'm going to find God or find the meaning of life, where better to do it than in a contemplative monastery? So I thought I'd give it a shot for a few years, kind of like a grad school, go try it out. And then it actually ended up being a twenty year adventure, some good, some bad. And so that's kind of the transition. That's kind of why I went into the monastery. Man. Twenty years in a monastery. Like... what what does that mean like what do you do in the monastery are you are you serving other people are you reading are you having conversations with other people are you all the above and it was a teaching order so I was I was I was teaching in a prestigious private school I was the head of the mathematics department there and um so there's you got a job so there's that and then you've got all the monastic services and community duties so there's that it's like you always have two full-time jobs so it's actually quite busy I ironically I feel like I have more time for contemplation now that I'm out of the monastery than I was in because you're just so you're, you know, there's a lot of caretaking. A lot of the monks were older and needed a lot of, a lot of physical care. And so there's a lot of that going on as well, but the conversations were fantastic. Lots of those definitely deep dives into all the world. And, and, you know, we were, we were a Catholic Benedictine order, but, you know, we were very open and all the brothers had advanced degrees in something and, And so, you know, some of them had degrees in comparative religions and philosophy, theology. And so I got a really good exposure to, you know, all the different, we were, we were very open and theologically, I would say as a community and definitely pulled from different world traditions and practices. And even our community spent, got to spend a summer in India at an ashram there. And that was really eyeopening and, and, and, quite a profound experience and so I got a good well-rounded theological and philosophical training there as well and I really really enjoyed it man I can't imagine like maybe because I've never this is not my experience I haven't lived it but it sounds like you really get a good foundation for morality or in spirituality and the understanding of relationships on some level it must have been How does that then transfer into money? Then you move into a money manager. That seems like the complete opposite side of the monastic side. What's the relationship between those two? All right. Well, that's a bit of a story. So part of the reason for joining the monastery was to escape the world of money and materials forever. I also joined the monastery for good reasons, but also it was a great way to annoy my parents. It really flabbergasted them. I grew up in a fairly affluent household where money was sort of the... I would say money got weaponized in a way when my parents divorced when I was about seven um it became the way the tool that my parents used to get back at each other you know ask your mom for something she said go ask your dad he's got all the money he was a ceo of a of a chemical company he was a chemical chemical engineer and then I'd ask my dad he'd say well go ask your mom she gets all my my money because I give her all the alimony and child support and you're like well then you so in a weird way I would look at my middle class friends and they'd have a lot more stuff than I did because they their parents were just a little bit more you know there wasn't this fight over stuff all the time so um it was partly an act of rebellion to join the monastery as well but in an ironic twist of fate um about three years after I joined the community went bankrupt because there was all these what I call money monsters all these issues uh some just legacy of debt and deferred maintenance, healthcare costs, lots of things that just drove, essentially there was more money going out than going in. And that put us in a really awkward spot. And by an ironic twist of fate, the responsibility for fixing that problem fell into my shoulders only because no one else wanted to do it. And I was so young and naive and I was like, oh boy, throw me in coach, I'll do it, I'll do it, I'll do it. I'll fix this, I'll be the hero and whatever. And sort of my ego got involved with that a little bit, but I turned out I was, and I was financially illiterate, which I went out in the world knowing nothing about money, even though my mom was a CPA, my dad was a CEO, it was like, money, talking about money was in my family was harder than talking about sex, like it was the taboo topic that nobody wanted to deal with. So I knew nothing. And so I had to sort of self educate myself on this on the subject to figure it out. took me a couple years, about two and a half years to kind of pull the community through those problems. And fast forward a There's so many steps to this, and I want to get to some other topics. But the punch line is because I was chairing the mathematics department, I decided, boy, we should really teach kids this stuff. This is a really important topic. It's a shame that we send so many people out in the world financially illiterate. And so I started teaching Econ and Personal Finance as an elective, and it became a very popular course. Fast forward a few more years. One day for a class project, I opened up the school retirement plan to show the kids how it worked and found out it was a complete train wreck. And then I went looking for a company that could do a better job and couldn't find one. And then I realized it was an endemic problem across the country. So I thought, well, here's a billion dollar pain point. Maybe I could solve this thing for my friends, for myself, for my community, my school, and then for other teachers around the country. And so I And this is batshit crazy, but I launched my own investment advisory firm from inside a monastery. I did all the training, got all the licensures, did all the things, got a client. And then I realized, hey, I like this better than monastery work in a way. I was done. I was cooked. Stick a fork in me. The monastery at that point had gotten a little bit dysfunctional as communities can... And monasteries are closing left and right across the country. They're just not viable, really. People aren't joining in. The age demographic of our community had gotten so old that it was impossible to bring new people in. And so I realized that this was a dying order. And so I made the transition out and I jumped ship, took my little company and I merged it with a larger firm called Longview Asset Management in Santa Fe. And then that took off my investment career. And here's the key point. Right when I did that, this is the great stroke of luck. Right when I did this, the New York Times came out with a six month, six piece. Every month they came out with a big expose on the problem of teacher retirement plans across the country, what are called four or three B's for nonprofits. And they were pointing out all the problems I was running into and the very reasons why I'd started my company. And so I reached out to them on Facebook, a guy named Ron Lieber at the New York Times, who's the financial columnist there, and told him what I was doing. And he got excited, flew out to Santa Fe two weeks later and did a big piece on me that hit the front page of the New York Times business section, went viral. I got a two book deal from HarperCollins out of that. And it really took my career in a great direction. And so now I'm Now I'm an author, so I took a buyout from Longview about a year ago to work on this new book called Taming Your Money Monster, Nine Paths to Money Mastery with the Enneagram, which hopefully we can get into a little bit in time with the psychedelics. So that's the story in a nutshell. It's so relevant. I think it's important to get to see where you've been to know what you're working on now. What is the Enneagram? Maybe you can tell us what that is. Yeah, so it's a robust personality system, and what I'm really excited about in my new book is I've really grounded it in neurobiology and developmental psychology. So it has somewhat of a reputation of being a bit in the woo-woo space, which I'm sure your listeners won't mind, but really grounded. Basically, what it says is that there's only so many ways you can design ego. Just like there's only so many ways you could design a car. There's infinite variety of cars, and the car you drive is very unique. You could find yours in a parking lot, no problem. But just like there's styles of cars, there's styles of egos. And if you don't fit these certain patterns, you're basically not roadworthy. It doesn't work, right? And so what we've discovered from the neurobiology is that there's... So enneagram means nine in Greek and gram means drawn. So enneagram just means nine things drawn. It's these nine archetypal personalities. And we draw them on a circle typically, kind of like a pie chart, if you think of it like that. And there's infinite variety inside. So... each of those types but it basically tells you what were your ego defenses that you developed in childhood to help you navigate reality and allow your consciousness to develop into form so um and I can go into the technical parts of that if you'd like um maybe but that's that's that's that's the quick quick quick answer but there's a lot more to it than that of course Yeah, it's awesome, man. Break it down. It kind of sounds Jungian to me when I start thinking about different archetypes and stuff like that. It's very Jungian. So I use Jungian psychology throughout my book. I'm a big fan of Jung. And so I actually think I'm most proud of in my book is I've really – come up with a Jungian understanding of the shadow structure for each of the nine archetypes of personality. So we talk about the shadow, but what does your shadow look like in specific detail? And how do you know what it is? And what are the steps to overcoming it? So each of the nine types has a unique shadow, a unique core fear that we developed in childhood, and then an ego defense structure to protect us from that core fear. and then a path of growth and development to enlightenment. So each of us, we talk about enlightenment, we throw that word around, but it turns out it's not the same path for all of us. We each have different sort of virtues and vices that we struggle with. And the ending will tell you exactly what those are. And then I've created these really cool ego maps that will tell you what's the step-by-step process you need to go through. What was the step-by-step process that developed your ego? And then what's the step-by-step process to come to your healthiest expression of that ego? Yeah, I'm working with... I know some, there's an incredible friend of mine named Jennifer Love, and her and I were having a similar conversation. It talks about your core wound is actually your gift. And it sounds to me like that's sort of beginning to, it sounds like those two things are kind of dovetailing on some level, but how do you, like what parameters do you need to like figure out your anagram? Like you got to do some real deep work to figure out your core wound. You got to be pretty honest. You got to get the shadow down. You got to get the defenses down, but break it down for us. All right, well, so here's how the Enneagram works. It's kind of like this is, imagine when you were born, you had a physical umbilical cord that was cut and that physically separated you from your mother, but you immediately develop what I call a psychological umbilical cord to your caregivers. And because your ego is then codependent on your caregivers in childhood because they got to do all the driving for you because you're helpless and defenseless. So you have this egoic codependency that develops. But that psychological umbilical cord also has to be cut in order for you to do what we call individuate and differentiate from your caregivers and from the rest of reality, your siblings and everything around you. And so what we know now from the neurobiology is there's only three ways to cut that psychological umbilical cord. And it has to be done with the sharpest negative emotions because positive emotions will just reinforce that connection to your caregivers. And so in the limbic system of all mammals, and this is in mice and rats and dogs and cat, all mammals have three core negative emotional circuitries. And that's anger. sadness and fear. And sadness is sometimes called shame in the Enneagram, and they're kind of interchangeable, but it's technically the sadness circuitry that it's running off of. And so the question to determine your Enneagram type is like, well, which of those three? We all get all three of those negative emotions in childhood, but we got one of them more than the others. And it was predominantly how the no's that you got were delivered to you. Like, no, don't touch the hot stove. Don't kick the dog. Don't throw your food on the floor. Don't swallow your pants. All these no's that we get, they come at us as sort of negative. And how were they delivered? Were they delivered with more anger, with more shame, or sadness, or more fear? And that gives us what we call these three. So if you think of a circle, just break it into three chunks. And those are called triads of the Enneagram. And then we could take those three negative emotions, they can only be processed in one of three ways. So we can either that pain and we can internalize it, directing it towards ourselves like an emotional wedgie, or you can externalize it, like kind of having a food fight with the world, or you can have both. You can have both the internal and externalize it. And so that's why there's nine core archetypes in the Enneagrams. That gives us the nine personalities. And then each one develops a core deepest fear. And then that kind of sets the ball in motion for the rest of your ego development structure. Let me give you an example. So let's make this concrete. So I'm what's called a type three on the Enneagram. So I'm in the shame or sadness triad. And so what that means is for me is I have this internalized shame, which means I feel a sort of sadness or shame about how I perceive myself. And then I have an externalized shame or sadness, which means I feel this shame or grief about how I think others perceive me. That's my core wound. And then what that does is it creates the greatest fear for a type three, which is feeling worthless. And so this sense of not having any value or place in the world. And so what that does is it creates type three is called the Achiever. Now, I call them the race car. I give them car names. I think it's helpful because what that means is type three is always racing towards the next goal or trying to achieve something like win the race, run the marathon, start the company, write the book. All these different personas I've had in my life of trying to achieve something in order to win validation and approval from the world around me. So threes are often called, one of the hallmarks of a three is that we're expert mask changers. We'll sort of shift our persona to fit whoever we're in front of to try to impress them to win that validation and approval from the world around us. So we're always running towards that finish line. But the problem is we tend to leave our authentic selves in the dust. So we tend not to know who we really are at our deepest level because we're so busy performing for others. We lose touch with our true authentic selves. nature and so um I could walk you through the ego map for the three if you want or we could talk about other types but that gives you a little quick taste of what one type is like the type three is like and then each of them have a different flavor of what what their fear is and that changes how the the lens through which they perceive all of reality we're not you know we're all seeing the world from a different lens but what is that lens and the engram tells you what it is It sounds like an evolution of awareness, like when you become aware of something like you can't unsee it. And it sounds to me like the type three like that that resonates with me quite a bit in once you become aware of it I guess that's sort of the first step into battling it but what do you do with the innergram maybe you can walk us through but like what do you do is it just becoming aware of it that allows you to change the habits that change the change the lens or maybe cleaning the lens or exactly right it can't solve a problem that you don't know exists right so so awareness is the first step but the the actual process to you know to healing those wounds and becoming your most authentic and healthiest expression of your type. It's a lifelong journey. It is the spiritual adventure. And so what I really have come to believe is that the Enneagram is the underlying code behind all world religions. It's the... it's the operating system that they're all resting on top of. We may have different theologies and different expressions and different practices, but essentially every world religion is, if you think of them as different apps on a cosmic smartphone, the underlying code really is the Enneagram. It's telling you what is your spiritual adventure that you need to go on, kind of your hero's journey, to really become the most decent, loving, kind, compassionate person that you can become. For me, maybe I'm super naive in that. I want to believe everybody is their own individual and they're unique. But if you really look at nature, we kind of fall into these ideas. We are kind of categorized. You could probably find yourself in like, okay, I belong to the tree family. I belong to the water family. And if you do look at those different religions, you see the different signs, have different things attributed to them. So it blows my mind to think like, yeah. Does it take away from the individuality of it? Because inside Enneagram type, there's an infinite variety. So you have to think of it like a fractal, if you know what a fractal is. Of course. So it's like a fractal. And we're just touching the top layer of the Enneagram fractal here. It's the top layer, and there's layers and layers and layers and layers. And it goes down infinitely. And so there's still just like your car is unique. You can customize it. You can trick it out. You can change the muffler. You can change the seats. You can change the steering. There's all these things you can do to customize your car. But the chassis is still pretty much set. That's the thing that, what's the chassis and engine? What's the engine and chassis of this vehicle you're driving in? Those things seem to be pretty fixed. Yeah. I guess it's important to know, am I an off-road vehicle? Am I a sports car? Like, what am I? Then once you figure that out, okay, I can get, I should get on the Autobahn or I should go off-roading. Exactly. Right. And if you're driving a Hummer, you don't want to try to park it in a compact spot. Right. And if you've got to, you know, if you're driving a family sedan, it's probably not good for off-roading. So, so it really does tell you kind of what, what your strengths and weaknesses are. And then as you point out your greatest weakness, if you, if when you heal, it becomes your greatest strength. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Where does psychedelics fit into this as both two individuals that love psychedelics? Like, I can already see a few branches coming off of it, but let me hear your thoughts. Well, I mean, I didn't take the Enneagram seriously until I started my psychedelic explorations. I thought it was sort of in the woo-woo space. I was like, yeah, whatever, you know. I'm a twin, and so I've always had a hard time with astrology, although I know some people find it very meaningful, and I don't want to put it down. But I'm sort of skeptical of these systems. And it was really on five MAO DMT was the one that really opened my eyes to my own – uh, personality and, and, and, and struggles. But then what I noticed, and this is where the Enneagram is so helpful is it can predict the flavor of your psychedelic experiences. And so what I would notice is that when people's egos were dissolved. So for those of you who are familiar with five of me, oh, it's called the God molecule or the toad, or has a bunch of different names, nicknames for it. Um, I like the God molecule. Um, but, um, It's a very short, powerful, about-twenty-minute experience that reliably produces complete ego dissolution. And what I noticed is that when people were on their five-minute experience, particularly the first one, the thing that when people have a hard time on five-minute, typically what happens is what I was seeing is that the hardest thing for them to let go of was their identity with their trauma that created their Enneagram type. And then when they have that breakthrough experience, it could be positive or negative, but hopefully it's positive, that then what they would often experience was their greatest hope or the pinnacle of what, to any of them would predict the flavor of the challenges they would have and the flavor of the breakthrough experience very, very reliably. And then I noticed it on all psychedelics, in fact, that there's a tends to be because your personality has them tells you what your greatest fear is and it tells you what your greatest hope is. And so then your journey can the individual imagery, the individuals, what metaphors that are coming up are going to be unique to you. But the flavor of it is very reliably predicted by the Enneagram. And then I thought, oh, my gosh, now I have some empirical in front of me, even though it's anecdotal evidence that this thing is real and that it really worked. It worked for me and it was working for others. And so then it gave me the courage to trust it more and go more deeply into it. And then my book really reinvents the Enneagram in some key ways to bring it a little more up to date and make it a little bit more accessible to people. But that's how I discovered the connection between the Enneagram and psychedelics. then after that and after I was writing this new book again my background is finance so I was putting the enneagram towards the world of finance and money in my book taming your money monster but um what was really this mind which blew my mind was to realize that all of the pioneers in the enneagram were all psychonauts They were hardcore psychedelic explorers. And so the Enneagram has always been with us trying to figure out who discovered it, invented it. It's like trying to figure out who discovered mathematics. Like it's you could find traces of it in ancient Greek texts, the Iliad, the Odyssey and anywhere you want to look because it's always been there. But there was a there's like two two pioneers in the twentieth century. Oscar Chazzo and Claudio Naranjo were these that they were sort of the Galileo and Newton of the Enneagram. They really took it and made it the robust personality system that it is today. And both of them were very deep psychonaut explorers, working with a whole variety of substances, but particularly Claudio Naranjo, he's sort of the Newton, he's the big name. And what's important about Claudio Naranjo, he's a doc, he's an MD, a psychiatrist, And not only did he pioneer the Enneagram, but he had one of the first psychedelic assisted therapy clinics in South America and was a close friend and partner with Alexander Shulgin, who I'm sure maybe you know that name, who was the chemist who synthesized about a hundred different novel psychoactive compounds, including MDMA, TCB, and a whole bunch of other stuff. and so basically what was happening is shulgin was inventing these compounds testing them on himself and his wife anna and then uh shipping them down to naranjo in south america where he was then testing them on his uh clients and seeing how does how does mdma work as a as a tool for for for therapy how does ayahuasca work how do you know obviously ayahuasca has been around for a long time but um and a whole bunch of other stuff uh he was working with ibogaine and uh And he's got several books that he wrote about it. One's called My Psychedelic Explorations, and the other one's called The Healing Journey, where he really lays out his... his discoveries of how to use psychedelics for psychotherapy. And what's really fascinating about that is his one book, My Healing Journey, that fell into the hands of an eighteen-year-old, Rick Doblin. If you know who Rick Doblin is, he was the founder of MAPS, and that launched Rick into his career, which now we have MAPS, the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. So Narada was really the godfather of the psychedelic movement, and he's also the godfather of the Enneagram. And these two branches got split off for historical reasons that I could go into. But one of my goals is trying to bring them back together and realize that these are two tools that work together. They amplify each other in really powerful ways. And when you put them together, you have a better guiding tool for when people are journeying on an experience and a better integration tool after people are coming out of it. So that's a lot I've just done. Actually, let me just pause there and see what questions come up. Man, it sounds like an incredible way for integration. And it sounds like an incredible way to help guide people. But where I get lost is that I think psychedelics are this tool for self-discovery. And I worry that when we have all these tools that the guides become the medicine or the facilitators become the medicine instead of the individual finding these tools on their own and then having their own self-discovery and their own breakthroughs. think well it's both I mean having a good there's a difference between a trip sitter and a guide and and most psychedelic therapy is just trip sitting you just do no harm right just hold space keep people safe and that's how most of it should be done unless you're really experienced but if you've traveled the path and you know where someone's stuck and you have these tools they can accelerate the process and help people find their way through a difficult journey and push them through it because you know where they're going or where they need to go in some meaningful way in a broad sense, or you know where and why they're stuck. And so like my first five male experience was very powerful and had a wonderful facilitator, but he was just a trip sitter. And then I had all this, experience, some of which was very traumatic, and I didn't have, how do I integrate this? How do I make sense of this? And without some framework or some deeper understanding of human psychology to help you move through it, It took me about six months of, I was kind of a wreck for about six months after my first five experience, because I didn't have the guidance to help me make sense of it and understand it. And so you can save people a lot of suffering. The point is to reduce suffering. and accelerate the spiritual journey. And if you know what the map is, then you can kind of walk people through it a little bit more efficiently, rather than having make them reinvent the wheel on their own, especially if they maybe don't don't have a deep psychological or theological or philosophical training, they may never never figure it out. And so there's been might might just get lost. So I think it's important that if you are a guide, and you are helping people with integration, that you have these tools so that you aren't causing more harm or leaving people unnecessarily in confusion and pain. Yeah. yeah I see it's such an interesting conversation with like the whole like you know what gets lost for me is like in the whole medicalization of it like yeah there I agree my personal opinion is that the majority of people you don't need a guy like you don't need you just need courage you need the courage to do large doses and sit with the trauma of course there might be some integration down the work like you're gonna get stuck but I think so much of getting stuck is the medicine like Why can't I get over this? What does this mean? All of that individual searching is what allows you to break through on some level. And I know that there's tons of people that actually have real issues that need the help right there. man, I'm such a huge fan of the self-discovery, but I think that each individual could use these tools alone. Once you begin learning these tools, so much of the seeking is the medicine. Like, oh my God, I found the Enneagram. What does this mean about me? And then you start doing your own notes, your own research. You pick up the books from Claudio, from Osco, or you pick up Doug Lineman's books, and all of a sudden you go, oh, okay, I'm figuring it out on that level. Absolutely. And I totally agree with that. And that's certainly how I did it. But there's also... I think you can learn from your ancestors. I think there's wisdom that can be passed down and that if you have people who can point you in the right direction, it could be a bit more efficient, let's put it that way. I'm not saying you have to do it that way, but if you are gonna be, if people are going to be guiding and you are looking for that extra little support, then it's good to have mentors and people who've already stumbled through some of this and learned from their mistakes and know what the limits and boundaries are for these substances as well. So I think it's both. Okay. This is, I got an awesome question, particularly for you. Where does money come into this then? Because we can see a lot of players coming up. Like I, sometimes I see these schools that come up or people charging for this. And it, it seems to me that. when the instrument becomes an institution, it loses its ability to be effective on some level. So as someone who has been on both sides of the spectrum and in psychedelics now, what's up with the money issue? How does that fit in? How does that hold hands with spirituality? Well, there's this, I think, part of it. And I don't talk about psychedelics in my book at all. But the opening chapter was all about psychedelics. And I originally had it sprinkled throughout by publisher I think wisely, but for various reasons, forced me to cut all of it out. The book's long enough as it is. And, but so, so the money thing is a, is a, is a whole nother topic, but if you want to just talk for in the, in the smaller sense of money, I would say this there's this Maybe dualistic thinking around money or this notion that money is inherently bad or evil or corrupting, that it's going to contaminate or pollute the spiritual adventure or journey. And I think that's a misguided notion. I think money is a tool and you can use it to... whack yourself in the thumb or build something beautiful it's really up to you and so the book is really trying to teach people how to have a healthy secure relationship to money and what does that look like for you and and how do you work through your money traumas um and all the different aspects that that can show up in your financial life but to the the question of money and psychedelics I have a bit of a contrarian opinion on that um I think that it's a service I think it's an extremely valuable service that takes a lot of skill a lot of time it's very hard work and we should be paying facilitators extremely well that we should be thinking like a doctor or a lawyer so that we attract the best talent to the field and that people are really um able to make a good living out of it and they're able to provide a good service I don't fundamentally see why um offering psychedelic assisted therapy is different from a regular therapist you know you pay your regular therapist well to do a good job to help with your troubles why would this be fundamentally in a different category um there's this idea that if you're doing good with things in the world you're doing good work you're being of service that somehow you shouldn't be making any money off of it is is a little bit misguided because then then who's going to be in the field like only people can afford to not have to charge like you're limiting your your the pool or you're requiring people who are living a life of service to live a life of poverty or scarcity. I don't think that's fair. I think we should elevate these professions to a very high level. And of course, I'd say a good third or half of the work I do is pro bono. So there's always giving back and I always work on a sliding scale and always meet people where they're at. So you don't want to get price gouge either, but I think you need to be able to make a living at whatever you're doing. Yeah, that's really well said. It almost hearkens back to the beginning of the story where you said you were in the monastery and you realized that the people in there providing awesome service were going bankrupt. Right, because we thought money and service were antithetical to each other. That somehow if you're doing good work in the world, it should be done for free or you shouldn't be making any money off it. And then what happened in the monastery is it limited our ability to be of genuine service. I mean, if someone comes to me and they're a multimillionaire and they're swimming in it, why should they? Why shouldn't they can afford this? Why should why shouldn't they? compensate someone well for doing good work for them. And if someone can't afford it, well then, okay, you gotta meet them where they're at. But it's the idea that money and spirituality, maybe that's the theme of both of my books. My first book is called, From Monk to Money Manager, a former monk's financial guide to becoming a little bit wealthy and why that's okay. And now my new book, of course, just to plug it one more time, is Taming Your Money Monster, Nine Paths to Money Mastery with the Enneagram. And the theme between both, they're very different books. The first book is sort of a how-to book. How do you manage your money on a practical nuts and bolts kind of level? And the second book is really the psychology of money. Why do you make stupid money mistakes over and over and over again? How do you get over that? But the theme between both of them is just how do you bring your spiritual practice and money together in some healthy balance? How do you have a healthy relationship to money so that it can become a spiritual practice? Yeah, that's really well said. So that you have the tools to be of love and service to a suffering world. You can't do anything in life without money. Money is the tool for most actions. So if you want to be an effective force of action in the world, you're going to have to have money in your pocket. it's just that's the end of the story so if you are rejecting money out of some misguided notion that it's inherently bad or evil or whatever and it can be used for that for sure there's no doubt about it that but it also could be used for tremendous good in the world you can't you can't feed the hungry or clothed naked without money unless you've can work miracles, can multiply the loaves and fishes by yourself. I haven't figured that one out. So you really do need to master money in order to make a difference in the world. Can you see that in like the Enneagram, like whether it's type one, two, or three, does your core wound have a relationship with your, not only your spirituality, but also your ideas on money? A hundred percent. So like, so there's, in these nine types, each type has what I call two money monsters. Okay. So what I've layered, I've done, I've layered on top of the Enneagram, what I call the attachment theory of money, which is based on the attachment theory of relationships. It's the same idea, just repurposed. And the idea is that you can, when we're, when we, we are unhealthy at our money level, mindset we can either be anxiously attached which would be someone who's maybe too greedy too acquisitive too obsessed sort of the ebenezer scrooges of the world um not to pick on donald trump but you know he's kind of an easy easy target or that show is that show um on hbo uh succession succession have you ever seen that or billions all right you see people who are really money anxious and all the all the problems that that's causing Or on the other hand, you can be money avoidant, which is kind of how I was raised. That was how I approached it, was hating money and wanting nothing to do with it, thinking it's bad or evil and rejecting it out of hand, and then disempowering yourself from being able to do much in the world. But most of us are what I call the jumbled style. We can be a little avoidant in one area and maybe anxious in another. And I lay out in the book what I call the four pillars of finance. And the four pillars of finance are going to be earning, saving, investing and giving. So earning, saving, investing, giving are kind of the four big buckets that your money monsters can show up in. And so, for example, you could be an anxious earner. You might make a lot of money, but if you spend everything you make, then you're an avoidant saver because you're so busy buying stuff. Some people are anxious savers, but they're terrified of investing. Some people are anxious investors, but they never do anything useful with their money. They're essentially hoarding their wealth and not really using it as a tool for love and service to the world around them. And so the flavor of those money monsters, I'll touch on the three because we already talked about it. And I'm happy to try to diagnose your money monsters if you want. But for the three, there's two. I call them the barrier and the blinger. And so the money avoidant type three is called the barrier, which is like the ostrich who wants to stick their head in the sand. They don't want to look at it because it triggers all their shame. They have this internal sense of worthlessness. And so threes, we tend to equate our net worth with our self-worth. And so when we look at our paltry bank accounts, it brings up all this shame and all this grief that we have around it. So we don't want to look at it. So we tend to push our bills away, don't want to do our taxes, don't want to do our budgets, don't want to look at it. And that creates all kinds of suffering for people. Or on the other side for the three, I call them the blinger, which is the money anxious three. So threes are all about look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me. It's kind of how their inner mantra is. And so the blinger is using their money to buy status symbols to gain status in the eyes of others. So they want the fancy car, the nice watch, the big house, whatever. to impress the people around them, to assuage that inner sense of worthlessness. So they're using money as a tool to try to heal their core wound of their Enneagram type in a very unhealthy way. So those are the two money monsters of the three, but then there's obviously we've got eighteen in total. So we've got sixteen more we could go through if you wanted to talk about them. Man. It blows my mind just to think about the relation relationships in general? Like we can, happy to go through, what are some, like what's the Ariadne thread that runs through all of them? Is it like relationships, relationship to self and? Well, yeah, relationship to self. It's relationship to your identity. It's what's your inner dialogue, self-talk. And these wounds are unconscious. So here's the key point of the Enneagram is these wounds were necessary for you to develop self-consciousness. And so they developed unconsciously. And this is where the psychedelics can be helpful because in a broad strokes, what psychedelics do, and I'm overgeneralizing, of course, is they help make the unconscious conscious, right? And as you know, from young until we make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate. And so it's like, how do you get off this treadmill of fate that you're stuck on because you're operating unconsciously from these wounds? And how do you reveal them? How do you uncover them? And how do you heal them? And so traditional therapy techniques work great, but when you pair them with psychedelics, obviously you can move things along just a little bit faster. What would be an awesome example that you and I could do together that would help show everybody what we're talking about? Oh, well, okay. Well, let's talk a good example. I mean, I always go back to, I always poke at myself because it's easier, but let me talk about you for a minute. Let's see if we can figure out where you're in. And this is hard to do over Zoom and it's hit and miss. But so sit for a minute. Okay. Maybe just close your eyes. and think about your darkest emotional moments, particularly when you were a teenager and in your teens and twenties, but even now, like when you are in a really dark space, what emotion comes up more for you? Is it more anger? Is it more shame? Or is it more fear? Shame. Shame. Okay. So that puts you probably in the shame triad. So that means you're probably a two, three or four. So let me give you a couple of choices of what your greatest fear might be. So I'll give you three options. One, do you feel that you're basically unlovable? And do you feel this compulsive need to help others in order to sort of earn love that you feel this compulsive need to like, feel like you're not fundamentally lovable? And that you're often running around helping people maybe to your own detriment, overextending yourself. That's one option. That would be a type two. I call them the ambulance of egos because they're always running around rescuing other people because what they want is like, I'll help you so that then you'll tell me how wonderful I am and you'll love me and you'll approve of me. Does that resonate with you at all? It does, but I haven't heard the other ones. Okay. Yes. So type two has what we call externalized shame. I mean, they take that shame and they feel shame about how they think other people perceive them. That's two. Then we've got type four. They're called the individualist. I call them the custom car. So they internalize that shame. Okay. And they feel shame about how they perceive themselves. Like they don't have a unique identity or place in the world. So they're always striving to, their fears are not unique, that they don't know who they are. They don't feel like they fit in. And so they're always trying to stand out by standing apart. Like they have this knee jerk reaction to conventionality. If you tell me this is the way to do it, I'm gonna push back against that. And they're always just feel this need to assert their individuality in any way that they can. Does that resonate with you at all? I think number two resonates most so far. Okay. And then, of course, there's the three, which we already covered. And that would be if you have both that internal and external shame. So then your greatest fear is being worthless. So you're always running around on a treadmill trying to achieve things to try to win that validation and approval from other people. I think I resonate with two, but I've done a little bit of work. Let me just interject for a minute and see where this goes. I've moved from I am not important to I am radical empathy, sort of caressing that core wound and being like, wait a minute, that's not what that means. What this really means is that you have the ability to see the brokenness, not only in yourself, but to see the signs of it everywhere else. And that allows you to become something that is meaningful and sort of patches that that whole of of the ambulance chase or that shame like all of a sudden you realize shame hey wait a minute that's just something that you're aware of and now you can now you have the gift of seeing it everywhere on some level and if you can see it as that gift you can really help out a lot of other people Yeah. So number two. Number two. Okay, great. So if you're a type two, then if an ambit helper, if that's your type, and again, there's all kinds of tests you can take. And actually, just to make a quick plug, I have a licensing deal with a company called it's called the IEQ nine integrative Antigram test. And I'll send you the link and maybe you could put the show notes. Of course, we'll take the test through that link. I get a little kickback so you can support me support my work. And it's the best test out there. It's got about a ninety five percent accuracy rate. And I really admire the work they've done there. That's why I recommend it. But all right. So I'll send you that and then and I'll send I'll send you a free link to that. I can get you a free one for you and maybe give it a shot and see if we if we got how accurate we were in this quick, you know, armchair diagnosis. So then if you're the helper, then the money monsters for the type two, I call them the bleeder and the bonder. And so the bleeder is the type two who is the money avoidant to who is sort of bleeding out their time and their talent and their treasure in service of others. But they have a hard time taking care of themselves. They're almost too generous to a fault. Um, and so they, they essentially, they're always running around rescuing other people, but not taking care of themselves. Or if they're money anxious, I come, they have, they really want a lot of money and they have resources. They, they become what I call the bonder. And the bonder is someone who uses their money to create codependency and others. They sort of like choose need. They need this constant flow of gratitude coming back at them. And so they're sort of like the, there's a story like the parable or, um, metaphor, whatever it is, you know, it's better to teach a person to fish than to give them a fish every day. Well, type two is sometimes would rather give someone a fish every day, like with a side of tartar sauce and note that says you're amazing because they, they feed off that gratitude coming at them so they can create, they can create that codependency. And so that would be some of the ways money can, the money monsters might show up for a two. And do any of those resonate with you? Yeah. I So then we've got to figure out how to get you out of that. All right. So I'll walk you through. How much time we got? I'm open. As much time as you want, man. Fantastic. All right. Let's walk you through your ego map then for type two. Can I screen share on this? Yeah. There should be a little button right down there where it says present or invite. Okay. Do you see it down there? I see a little button. Yep. Uh, share slides and PDFs, your computer. So it might have to edit this little bit out, upload file, and then let's see if I can find it really quickly. Yeah. Okay. It's only showing custom files. So I need to see the large icon. Sorry to take this time. Yeah, no worries. Take your time, man. I think you'll find this helpful. Of course. Absolutely. All right. It says invalid file type. It's a PDF. Is that not supported format? I don't, I'm not real sure. I guess I could, Oh, did I lose you there? It looks like we lost him for a minute, but if you hang on briefly, I'm sure he'll be right back to join us. Shout out to Joshua Moyer, Clint, Kyle's tree. So stoked. You guys are all here. It's such an interesting time that we live in to figure out our relationship with what our core wound is right here. Okay. I'm back. You're back. Take me out. I hit the wrong button. The two buttons look the same. All right. Sorry about that. No worries, man. Let's try an image file. Okay. Yeah. I don't know why it wouldn't allow it there. Okay. Here we go. How's that? Got it. Great. Okay. Okay. So, um, now you have to think of actually, if we're, if we're doing slides, let me show you one more slide. This'll be helpful for your audience as well. Um, let's do image file. Okay. Let's start here. This is a little, let's start with, let's, let's just back it up a notch. Okay. And we'll try to make this accessible to people who are just listening to the audience. Yeah, let's do it. So if you show the second slide I sent, that's the pie chart. Okay, got it. Okay, so this is kind of a quick rundown of the nine types. So you can see what we're looking at is like a pizza pie. We've diced it into three triads, and then each of those gets subdivided into three parts. So we have total nine pie slices. And so you can see at the center here, we have what I call your sacred wound, could be anger, sadness, or fear. and if we're looking at type two right you see that internal externalized sadness which creates your greatest fear of being unlovable um do you want to go I think it's probably too much to go through all nine types but um anyway you can see that each one has a core wound and then you can see what the core fear is um and then if we and yeah that's probably a lot to digest but we'll let's just jump maybe then to the ego map for type two and this is have to be a teaser so if you want more of this check out my book taming your money monster you got it's got all these slides and all these graphics built into it I think you think you and by the way the book's got five star reviews on amazon and it's doing great so um anybody wants to check it out please do and post reviews would be helpful if anybody likes it But so the reason I'm really showing you this is this is this is sort of a cross section of what we're going to look at in the next slide. So this circle is a cross section of a double cone. So you have to think of this if you imagine two traffic cones stuck together at their bases. So you've got a point at the bottom and a point at the top. And if we can flip to that slide real quick. So now you can see that that circle was a cross section of this diagram, this cone on the left. And what I've done is try to map out in broad strokes, the path that we're traveling. And so let's just look at this, So the metamap is on the left, and then your specific journey is on the right. So the metamap there is, and this is sort of the axiomatic assumption of the Enneagram. The bottom there is sort of when you're born. And this is my, every, so what we know from mathematics and any, any system, is you have to have axiomatic assumptions, sort of unprovable assumptions that you're assuming to be true. Even in math, you do this. And then hopefully they're common sense. And then we can build up from there. So the common sense assumption in the Enneagram is that you're starting your journey in the womb in a state of unconscious unity. that you don't have a clear sense of self or not self, but you're kind of in a state of oneness with everything you can experience. And then you get popped out in the world and you're what we call the first half of life. And we're at the bottom of this double cone. And imagine your ego expanding and growing as you move up this cone. And that first half of life is your path to independence. It's how you establish your independent sense of how you individuate and differentiate in childhood. And I call it the journey from thee to me, like thee being the sacred of the divine, whatever your tradition is, it doesn't matter. And then what happens is that then your ego grows into conscious separation. And it has to grow, it has to develop the independent sense of self. But what happens is the ego grows so much, it doesn't know when to stop until it hits the boundaries of reality. It's essentially, and you get into what I call the dark night of the soul, where, you know, all the things that you thought were going to make you happy don't, or you lose your job, your wife gets cancer, all these things that just throw you into turmoil where reality basically is giving you these unconditional rejections of you because you're sort of starting in a state of unconditional acceptance in the womb. And then you get into life and then you get to these big no's that come at you in terms of reality just saying, nope, you're not going to have that career you thought. Nope, you're not going to be healthy like you thought. Nope, you're not going to you know have all the things and all the things you thought were going to make you happy and so at some point we tend to create our own suffering. You know, there's tragedies and accidents happen, but we get into this dark night of the soul and then your ego has to break open through suffering because it doesn't know when to stop growing. And then you move into the second half of life. You gain a little more compassion, a little more wisdom, and you learn, this is your path to interdependence, right? And that's your journey from what I call from me to we, right? You're moving from the individualistic sense of self to a more holistic we, and I use a capital we there, like the whole thing. which psychedelics can do a good job of helping you to experience. And the goal of that journey is to get to the top of this double cone, which is conscious unity. That's where we're trying to, of all of our spirit traditions and all the spiritual adventures, we're trying to help you reach that state of conscious unity where you see yourself as part of this cosmic whole, right? All in love. And so... I'll pause there and then I'll walk you through your particular map of that journey. If that makes sense. That's beautiful. Like I, maybe it's the age I'm at right now, or maybe it's the fact that I'm already on LSD today. You know, maybe it's all these things together. That's great, man. Nothing, nothing hits harder than the truth. I love it. Do you mind sharing what your dose was or is that too? No, not at all. Um, I, I, I've been, I just moved from like, um, I was big on, I love psychedelics. Let me just say that first off. Um, I would, I was going with like my own protocol of micro dosing mushrooms for quite some time, but I just switched back to LSD and I do like, so like a real micro dose and I'll do it for like three days straight. And then I'll take a few days off and then come back to it again, just depending on, on where I am. But yeah, about two new G's today. Fabulous. OK. So you just do a little buzz. A nice little buzz. That's it, man. Clarity. Clarity. All right. So if this meta map kind of makes some sense, and there's a lot more part, but then there's all these parts to it. So let's start at the bottom. So we're looking from the bottom up here. The first part is what I call your sacred wound. That was how your psychological umbilical cord got cut in childhood. And we all have to have it. And what's nice about that is we're all the walking wounded. We all got this wound. The flavor of it's different for each of us, but there's no good types or bad types in the Enneagram. Everybody's got their thing. And so your sacred wound would then be that externalized sadness or shame, right? And that creates the greatest fear that we're building. What I'm building, this is my union understanding of the shadow structure right so we're this is your particular shadow if we got your type right which is a I want to put that caveat on that because I'm not a hundred percent sure on that but it sounds like we're close and maybe as we move through this you'll you'll you'll more if more of this resonates or if it gets off track then maybe we got the wrong type okay so then your greatest fear for the type type two is then that fundamental fear of being unlovable So then you have a greatest vice. It's called the passion in the Enneagram. What you're seeing in the diagram is there's a term I'm using, and then there's a term in parentheses. And the term in parentheses is the traditional Enneagram language, which I don't use because I think it's confusing. So I've cleaned up the verbiage here. in order to make a more coherent structure so that the shadow structure you're looking at and the enlightenment structure mirror each other. And so that's why I changed the terminology. And the anagram is sort of a mishmash. The modern anagram is like imagine you have a, trying to bake a cake with a recipe from five different grandmothers. Like all the recipes are good, but you don't mash them all together. It's like, you know, so, so that was part of my, my journey of these years of developing the system is to try to clean up and streamline the language a little bit. So, all right, with that, I'll just use my language. And if people who are already Enneagram enthusiasts, forgive me if I don't have the time to, translate it into your terminology for you. But you'll pick it up pretty quick. All right, so you have a greatest fear. which is being unlovable. And then you have a grace vice. Now this also was called, originally we called them the seven deadly sins. There was nine deadly sins. We forgot to, and they've added onto them, but basically each type has a core sin. I hate that word because it's a loaded language. So I just use your, your vice. It's like the one vice that you're going to struggle with more than the others. Like we don't all have the same vices. And so your vice would for two is pride. It's the pride in what a good, loving, caring, helpful person that you are. And so it's this pride that you then creates what I call your primary ego addiction. And the primary ego addiction for the two is in flattery. And what that means is that it's that compulsive need to tell people how wonderful they are, but also to be of service to people. You're always trying to compliment people or do something nice for someone because what you want them to do. And this is the dirty part. secret for twos is they they they're in this game of give to get like it's a it's a cycle everything they give has uh strings attached to it so it's like I'll help you but you better tell me how great I am or you better or else I'm going to be really upset right there's an unexpected it isn't it isn't uh it's conditional the problem with twos is the reason how they got to become a two is in part is they experienced a high degree of conditional love in their childhood environment. And so then you kind of, then you, you, you transmit that trauma of then you, that's how you are then relating to the people around you is of, of, of, of, of yeah, I'll flatter you. I'll help you. I'll do this. But, but really I'm looking for that, that, that validation and connection that you're going to give me to tell me how wonderful I am to reinforce my pride. All right. Now, the problem with your primary ego addiction, just like any addiction, is you can overuse it. You can overdose on it. And so when you overdose on your flattery or you've overextended yourself, you've given too much of yourself and you haven't gotten back what you expected from it, you have a secondary ego addiction. And it's like mixing a stimulant with a depressant. It's like you flip over. to uh the opposite strategy from your normal mode of being when you're under stress when you get really stressed out or really upset and the secondary ego addiction for the type two is is vengeance it's like it's it's it's like I'm gonna I'm gonna um which is uh The primary eudiction for type eight, so you sort of look like a type eight temporarily, and they're what we call the challenger. You sort of become, it's like watching a teddy bear suddenly grow fangs and claws, right? Like this sort of inner monster comes out, but your secondary ego addiction it doesn't stand alone it mixes with your greatest vice of pride and so you get vengeance plus pride equals just plain out revenge like it sort of blocks your flat basically it blocks your flattery it prevents you from from uh breaking yourself on the cross of over giving essentially so you tend to find subtle ways to get back at the people who it could be a fight with your spouse. It could be suddenly getting sick to make someone take care of you. It could be backbiting someone behind their back. All these different ways, but somehow you're going to make that other person suffer in some way for not giving you what you expected with the flattery that you offered. Does that make sense? Yeah, it totally makes sense. For me, in my life, I I'm trying to move from revenge to justice. Like there's a difference between getting something for revenge and then wanting justice. And later in life, like it took me a long time to realize that those two things were not the same. Like, oh, that makes so much sense. Like you want revenge. You don't want justice. You're not here for what's right. You're here to hurt somebody. You're here to get revenge on somebody. So yeah, that makes total sense. Yeah. And so, yeah, that's a really helpful way of reframing it. So now we're at the end of the bottom of this double cone, right? And that leads us into your money monsters, the avoidant and the anxious money monsters, which we talked about earlier, the bleeder and the bonder. So those are the ways that then this shadow would manifest itself in your relationship to money, right? Okay. So that, but that's eventually what happens is, is these ego addictions, they throw you into the dark night of the soul because you overuse them. And, and this is probably the most important thing I've learned from the Enneagram is that, you know, we talk, there's a Buddhist principle that, that most of our suffering is self-created, but the Enneagram tells you what's the, How are you creating that suffering? What's the unique flavor of that suffering for you? Because invariably, it's like you're using these ego addictions to outrun that greatest fear of being unlovable, but it's like you push the engine so hard, you end up burning out your engine or crashing yourself into a ditch. It actually causes, it's like a black mirror episode. Like the thing you're trying to outrun and your defense strategies to outrun it, create the very thing that you are trying to avoid in the first place. So that all that flattery and all that, then all the... revenge that's coming out, it tends to crash you and you tend to feel unlovable because your relationships are a mess or things are falling apart because you've overused these ego addictions and that creates you ultimately feeling separate from everyone and everything, including your sense of the divine. So you get lost in this really dark space. And then we got to figure out a way to get you out of it and through it. And this is where psychedelics are super helpful. It can move you through this much more quickly rather than having to be stuck in it for years or decades or, you know, because the dark night can last a long time. It's not like a, and it's not a one and done. And this is, I'm drawing this as a linear model, but you can move up and down this at any time in a day. And you can use your ego addictions in any dosage in any amount at any time. But, okay. So then we wanna get into your enlightenment structure. How are we gonna move you through this? Well, the first thing, you have what I call a faux virtue. Each type has a fake virtue. Now, it's a virtue for other types, but it's a potential spiritual trap for you. And that would be generosity. So, so twos are, because they're so helpful because they're giving, they think generosity is a virtue, but for you, it could be a way to reinforce your, your ego in an unhealthy way. So you need to be mind, just be mindful of it, that you, you know, it's sort of hanging out there. It's sort of a trap door that you could fall into and thinking that, um, that would actually just make things worse for you if you're not careful about that. Not that generosity is bad, but it can become a trap to reinforce that pride of the two. Okay, I'm going pretty quick here. Any questions so far? No, it's awesome. I think we're moving through like at a digestible pace. Okay, interrupt me at any point. Okay, so then you have what I call your primary recovery virtue. This is your first step to enlightenment for two. That's honesty. It's, it's being really honest about what you really think and feel. And, and it's, it's your, it's your best weapon against that flattery is to be able to say, you know, maybe you aren't, maybe that baby isn't, I mean, you don't have to be like brutally honest, but you know, you know, you shouldn't, you just want to be careful that that flattery isn't, it's the antidote to that flattery it's it's an honest assessment of what's really going on in front of you and you aren't praising people when they don't deserve it or you aren't even sending help when it isn't needed or wanted or given because sometimes twos can be very intrusive in their help like they're giving it when it isn't even asked for or wanted and so just being honest about what you really think and feel is going to be the first step in being able to tame this shadow for you. But there's two more steps to it as we move up the ladder here. So we'll walk up this ladder of the top half of this double cone, as we're moving into interdependence, we're moving into conscious unity. Then you have a secondary recovery virtue that opens up when you begin to practice that primary recovery virtue. So first you gotta start with the honesty, and then that starts to open up the secondary virtue, which is joy, which is finding joy in the present moment. And you start to look like what we call a type four. Your secondary recovery virtue is the primary recovery virtue for another type, which is type four, We could talk about, it's a whole other thing. But essentially, you need to bring honesty and joy together to create a super virtue for you, which is your greatest virtue, and that's humility. And that humility is going to be the antidote to that pride. It's that you're honest in the moment. You're joyful in the moment. You're centered and grounded in yourself without needing that external validation, essentially. Because the joy you're finding is internal, not external. It's not looking outward. For someone else to fulfill you, you found that inner fulfillment for yourself. And then you can live in great humility. and then that brings you to your greatest hope, which is to feel unconditionally loved. Cause when you're living in humility, you're letting your authentic self come out your, your highest expression of yourself. That's when you're going to be able to feel unconditionally loved because there are all these strings attached. You aren't, you're in this, pay to play game anymore. You're just honest about, you're presenting yourself honestly and forthrightly. You're living in your joy. And then the love comes naturally. It's a love that is, well, Well, it's a mystical experience. Let's put it that way. I mean, as a psychonaut, you'll know what I'm talking about. It's hard to put this into words exactly. But in essence, you're being loved for who you are, not for what you're doing for everybody, not for the fake persona that you're putting out there into the world. And that brings us to the top of this, which is your sacred gift. And the sacred gift for the two is what I call divine love, is that love that, because your greatest weakness is loving conditionally, so your greatest strength is loving unconditionally. And then your gift to give to the world is that divine love of unconditional love that you can bring to others more than any other type. Now, we all need to bring love in the world, but it's your superpower that you can manifest in really powerful ways. And that brings you up to the very top. Then you're living in consciousness. I guess the point is to feel that divine love inside yourself for yourself. and then psychedelics can help you with that powerfully. And then when you feel that, you both feel and know yourself to be a fractal piece of the divine, and you feel that connection, and you feel the love from that connection, that then heals that sacred wound that was causing all your problems in the first place. And then you can become what I call the money master for the type three, which is the beloved. Where you are that force of love and service in the world, like Mother Teresa is a good example, where you just are able to love the world unconditionally and bring that as your gift to the rest of us and teach us how to do it. It's so amazing to get to see the structure of like this chart where, and it brings me great joy to see like the different three D models, like this sort of map to understand the dimensionality of personality, the dimensionality of core wounds moving into a more enlightened state, or maybe that's not the right word, but like a more, the true version of yourself, you know, it's, it's so it's, it's really well done. I, I, I really like to get, for me it helps me better understand the course of life because for so long we've been just sort of pigeonholed into these bar charts or these graphs or this sort of linguistic models that don't really thoroughly explain and when I look at something like this you see sort of the science and the spirituality behind it which makes it much more digestible and I definitely think that most of my listeners who enjoy psychedelics or have had some sort of psychedelic experience be it through substance or breath work you're going to get this model way more it's going to resonate much deeper and I think that's where psychedelics come in like you you really understand these things but when you get to bring something back like this it really helps create it in a holistic way it's it's really well done man I like it and all all this came from my psychedelic journey like this was all this came out of My own inner journey work. And in order to figure this out for the other Enneagram types, I had to start with myself. So I had to start with my own ego map and really figure out what is my deal. And some of this stuff is already, other Enneagram experts have already laid some of this stuff out, but I'm the first one to put it into this three D linear model. So it's really coherent and clear. And I invented a couple of new steps and a couple of new terms along the way. What are some of the new ones that you invented? Well, if you can see it, everything that does not have a parentheses is new. And then I had to revise a bunch of stuff, like clean up a bunch of what I thought were Good, but, but convoluted idea, like the sacred gifts are what we traditionally call the holy ideas, which I find very confusing, very esoteric and to make it very much more practical and grounded. Um, and then to sort of lay these out in a, in a, in a, in a linear way so that you can see it in a step-by-step process. Yeah, I could see how this early in the conversation, we were talking about facilitating. So for those of you who are listening and can't see it, the new ideas are the sacred wound, that's new for me. The ego stress response, that's new. The faux virtue is new. The primary recovery virtue is new. So those are all new parts to this that you need to, I've been plugged into these other ideas. You know, here's a, I got a question. It's sort of off topic a little bit, but do you think it's possible? Like I, for me, some things that I've begun to incorporate into my psychedelic exercises are using like different, um, man, I can't think of the word for it right now, but Not some SARMs, but also peptides. And it seems to me like some of these peptides people are using, the same way psychedelics allow us for new neuroplasticity. It seems like some of these peptides are helping the body heal in a way. And I'm just curious to get your thoughts. Are you familiar with some of these different peptides or maybe some nootropics that might be in the body in the same way? I really don't know enough to say anything meaningful about it. I know a little bit about them, but not enough to have any opinion on it. Okay. Let me shift gears a little bit then. Or what I will say, I'm going to say this. Here's the other thing I've been working on, though. And again, this is anecdotal, and this is nascent, but I did a presentation on this at Burning Man last year that got really well received. They asked me to give it the same talk four more times because it was so cool. But how do we take this and use it to figure out which psychedelics are most likely to bring you the most healing? Now we're talking. Right. And so... Now, again, the anagram is this incredibly complex fractal, and there's all these other layers to it. There's a thing we're not gonna have time to talk about today called the instinctual variance, for those of you who are familiar, which shift this equation a bit in different ways. But in broad strokes, if you could go back to that pie chart just for a second, if you could pull that diagram up. And we're looking at these three triads of the Enneagram. We've got the anger, sadness and fear triad. And my rough hypothesis is that if you're in the shame or sadness triad, a good place to start for you on psychedelics would be MDMA because it's going to give you that Now, this is metaphorically speaking. We say the people who are in the sadness triad, we also often call them the heart triad. So any sort of heart openers, any empathogens are the ones that are going to be most useful for you if you want to go into that sacred wound and find healing in your journey experience, that any of those empathogens are probably the best place for you to start. And then if you're in the fear triad, we also call it the head triad. And if you remember the movie Dune or the book, I was a big fan, said that fear is the mind killer, right? So we say that if you're in the status triad, we say you're wounded in the... Metaphorically speaking, your core wound is in your heart and how you feel. There's something off in the way you're feeling perceptions in different ways. And if you're in the fear triad, there's something off in how you're thinking about how you... think about reality. And so for those folks, I would suggest probably starting with classical psychedelics like LSD or mushrooms are going to be a good place to start to really open the mind up and try to release that fear or confront the fear. And then if you're in the anger triad, now this is a new term I'm hoping we'll take off. I'm calling them somatolytics. So soma means body and lytic means release. So that would be things like ketamine or things that are gonna, we say that if your sacred wound is anger, we say you're a body type or a gut type. And that's a metaphor to saying your wound is in the gut where the anger resides metaphorically. And those folks seem to find a lot more healing of their sacred wound when they're doing something that disassociates them from their body and gives them an experience of somatic release from that bodily sensation of anger that they have. And I would love to see other people play with this idea and see how it might, if other people find it effective as well. And I'm leaving out, I'm leaving out NN DMT and five meal DMT. Those are kind of a different bucket. Those are sort of, this is just for like the, we're talking about the dark night of the soul. So that's, yeah. And there's way more psychedelics than that, but to talk about the ones that are sort of mainstream, that's my hypothesis. I love it. I think it's phenomenal. You presented it at Burning Man. Have you, and obviously yourself as a facilitator, you've been using this methodology. Have you found great success with it? Have you partnered with other people? Are people coming to you and saying like, hey, I'd like to try to get this over here in my clinic, or I would like to sit down and talk to you about how this can be used where I'm at? Well, I have. But I've really just sort of just getting this out into the world. I've been so busy with the money stuff and the promotion of that. This is pretty new. I think I've only presented this online. I did do some YouTube videos on all this that I posted, and I have talked to other people about it. But so far, I'm sort of unveiling it, if you will, here to the wider public, although it has been out there in other places. But really, it's just something I'm just starting to really be able to talk about and promote. Yeah, I think that this is pioneering. Like, this can cross so many different fields of, you know, psychology or the different methodologies for PTSD, or even addiction, like probably really good for addiction as well, because you could find out what your personality type is partnering with iboga treatment centers, or, you know, any kind of optimization centers, or it really is not contained into one area but dives down deep and into the core wounds it can probably help out all those different areas absolutely so that's why I think the anger so my next book I want to write is the on the enneagram and psychedelics like how do we use this as a tool know how do we figure out what medicines pairings are more or less likely to be helpful for you and then what's you know what and then it it really does predict I I I challenge people to try it just keep your eyes open for it like when you're on your journeys or you're watching other people journey if you know your enneagram type and you know the person's type like see if this you I think you'll notice this pattern of this flavor of the enneagram changes what you are going to experience on a journey because your journey is going to tend to bounce between these poles of your greatest fear the darkest journeys are going to be some confrontation in some way shape or form with that greatest fear of your as determined by your anger type and the highs right tend to have that flavor of fulfilling your greatest hope because a way of thinking about it like this is like if these medicines are flooding you with like love and connection and whatever, whatever particular, they do different things, but whatever they're flooding you with, they, they, they, you notice that you notice it most, the filling you up in the spaces where you're most empty, right? So while the medicine is neutral, but how you experience it, if it's flooding you with this love and acceptance or whatever it is, you notice it in the wound where you have the most deficiency, the most lack. So that's kind of what creates that euphoria. Oh, I'm releasing some part of this trauma or I'm overcoming fear. And then that shapes the flavor of the experience. Yeah. Yeah. It really gives people something to... almost gives voice to the ineffable you know what I mean by that like because you have so many of these connections in a deep journey or these moments of awe where everything is so clear and then it fades away so fast but this looks like you really bringing something back from that particular state and sharing it like which is the ultimate goal to me of psychedelics is to bring something back from that awareness and share it with everybody else yeah well that's our that's our responsibility right yes without a doubt that's why we go That's why we go. Doug, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, that's the hero's journey. That's Joseph Campbell, right? The whole point of the hero's journey is to do this and then bring that boon back, bring that knowledge, that wisdom back into the world, to your community. And without that, then it's just sort of narcissistic self-aggrandizement. Yeah, I love it. Doug, super stoked, man. This has been incredible. Like if people want to find, let me put this, I'm going to put this piece back up because I want people to see where they can find you and what you got coming on over here. Let's say people are listening to us right now, Doug, and they're like, this is amazing. I want to reach out to Doug, man. I want to be part of his new book. I want to collaborate on a book with him. I want to get this into my place where I'm working. What's the best way to do that? Where can they find you? Sure. You can find me online. I'm really easy to find. If you just search my name, Doug Lynham, D-O-U-G-L-Y-N as in Nicholas, A-M as in Michael. My website is my name, DougLynham.com. My email is my name, Doug, at douglineham.com. And my social media handles are all at Doug Lineham. So you can find me on YouTube. You can find me on LinkedIn, Instagram, all the things. So I'm pretty much out there on the web. So not hard to track down if you just got my name. You got any events coming up or anything on the radar? Not at the moment. Right now, I've got my head down. Well, podcasts. I'm doing two or three podcasts a week. That's kind of been my book tour, so to speak. And then I've got some speaking gigs. I've got some retreats I'm participating in, but they're all fulled up right now. But yeah, so I've got lots of things coming up and nothing that I could plug at the moment. Nice. Well, hang on briefly afterwards, Doug. I would like to talk for a minute to everybody else within the sound of my voice. Incredible show. Please reach out to Doug. If you got to see this, you got to see this breaking stuff that he's just kind of bringing out right now. Super amazing. And I hope everybody has a beautiful day. That's all we got, ladies and gentlemen. Oh, I see you have the photo of my Pope on there on the bottom there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got to meet Pope Francis. That was pretty cool. Yeah. Anyway. We'll come back and we'll do another session and maybe we'll bring some more people on and we'll have a broader panel discussion. I think that there's a lot of people that would love to talk to you and I would love to talk to you more. Sounds great, George. I had a blast on your show, man. This is fantastic. So much fun. Yeah. Okay, hang on briefly afterwards. Everybody else, I hope you have a beautiful day. That's all we got. Aloha.