Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. Actually, this podcast is the Voyage of Initiation, and I want to welcome everybody to the Voyage of Initiation. This is where the map ends and the real journey begins, not the hero's journey you've been told. You're not here to conquer. You're here to transform. Suffering is not your enemy. Madness is not your flaw. They are signals, guides to something deeper. This path isn't about fixing yourself. It's about remembering who you are before the world told you what to be. You're not a follower of myths. You're a maker of them. And this is the threshold. I am George Monty. I will be your co-host. And I'll kick it over to my incredible friend, Jessica, to introduce herself. Jessica, how are you? I'm doing great. I'm excited to be here. Super excited. Episode three. Episode three. There may be some new people joining us, Jessica. So I was hopeful that you could give me a little bit of background on some of the things you've been doing, what you're curious about and the world of the world of Jessica. Sure. Yeah. So some recent updates since we last spoke. I know on one of our episodes, I shared my experience in Peru where I had quite the profound experience of having acupuncture while working with the medicine San Pedro, Huachuma. And it was quite a profound experience and a very intense release of stored blood. let's just say, stored and suppressed emotions that got very deeply stuck inside various organs. And just after that experience, I was so amazed by how incredible that tool could be for helping people somatically release energy and stuck emotions. You know, a lot of the stuff that I correlate in Jungian too, our shadows self. And I was just so inspired by that experience. And we can talk about it more if you want at another time, but I was so inspired by what happened during that experience that the next day I woke up and said, I have to do this. So I recently started a program to get my doctorates in acupuncture and Chinese medicine. And I'm also paralleling that with Celtic shamanism. So I'm working to learn um the healing traditions ancient healing traditions that have been passed down in my lineage I'm irish and I'm learning from an elder in ireland to just you know learn how we used to incorporate um healing through nature healing through um journeying and other aspects into um into the work so I'm super excited about that it's been so fascinating to learn and and And it's funny, I actually now, again, I'm already, I'm very excited. So there's a lot to share here, but I've had some dreams that I can look back on now that were kind of like pointing me in the direction of this path, which is also very young me. And so, yeah, so that's what I've been up to as of late, getting that off the ground. And I'm still working with Enthea and doing the work with psychedelics and bringing that to employers and unions. And obviously still doing my work with coaching on top of it. So it's been exciting times. Yeah, without a doubt. You know, when I think about the times we're in, I was talking to Doc Askins a while back and he was talking about like the end of the hero's journey and like us sort of evolving and our awareness sort of deepening and sort of moving past the hero's journey. And as I started reading that and thinking about today's episode, I started thinking about this new myth that I read. I think it was Nietzsche, but the myth is called the three metamorphoses. And I want to get into it today. I want to kind of walk through them and I'm going to read them. I'll go through the first three parts of it, but I'm going to pause after each part and then we can kind of break it down and tell a little bit about where we are in that myth or some stories behind it. So are you ready for that? Yes. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, here we go. This is the three metamorphoses, a living myth for now. And as I read these stages, the stages are the camel, the lion, and the child. And I want everybody listening this to kind of feel where you are. So if you're at home, if you're at work, you're in your car, try to figure out where you are as I read these different passages. We're going to start with the first one right here. So the first one is the spirit of the camel. The camel kneels beneath the weight of the world. It bows before every thou shalt. It carries the burdens of its tribe, its family, its culture. It says, I will bear your expectations. I will swallow your truths. I will carry your gods upon my back and march into the desert. The camel's virtue is endurance. It suffers because it believes that suffering is noble, but the desert has no mercy. And when the camel collapses beneath the weight of inherited lies, something ancient stirs in his heart. What do you think about that? Have you had your own journey as the camel or what are your thoughts on that? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, this was definitely me for a large portion of my life. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. And I can remember like the distinct time where it just, you know, everything got so heavy to hold that it was really just kind of this point of destruction where things just started falling apart. And and I remember slowly unfolding out of that. I was in a career that wasn't very aligned with who I knew. I think who I knew deep down I was, but wasn't fully carrying out yet. I don't think I fully was conscious of it, but I knew that where I was at was not the place. It was very confusing, but I knew I needed to at least just go in a different direction so I could get some more insights. um and then you know from a relationship perspective was in relationships that weren't um aligned or right for me anymore and um and just dealing with a lot of um a lot of the shoulds and shouldn'ts you know that I think many of us um very much um agree to for one reason or another and I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that we're raised um we're raised really with the value of external validation being something that we really need to adopt in order to kind of survive in our cultural society. You know, we have to, there's expectations of us and we have to meet those expectations as kids, as teenagers, as adults coming into our careers and we have to really adopt them in order to be accepted in society. So there's all these shoulds and shouldn'ts that you're taking on unconsciously that you haven't really even had a chance to say like, is this for me or is this not for me? You're just kind of so confused with like the hustle and bustle and how fast everything is moving and how everything in front of you is telling you that you're supposed to be, that you just have to like go with it. And I remember that Because I was doing that unconsciously, I mean, I was struggling. I also had a number of traumas that were really impacting me. But I think between traumas that were unresolved and just misalignment within my life, I was struggling tremendously with anxiety, with panic attacks, with insomnia, because something inside me was saying, like, this is not your path. You need to shift. But I wasn't fully aware of that. I was just aware of like the unease or the dis-ease of misaligned of a misaligned life. And it was screaming at me from the inside. You know, I just and I just didn't have the conscious awareness of what it all meant. I just knew that I was really struggling and with kind of like this this internal feeling. And I remember I started to undo some of it. So I had gotten out of some of relationships. I had left work environments and just continued to do this undoing of the onion. And then I had my, I guess, second or third psychedelic experience working with mushrooms. And it was it just showed me everything I mean it just totally showed me all of the cages that I had built the mental cages that I had built the societal structures that I had accepted these norms of like who I was supposed to be how I was supposed to look how I needed to show up what I needed to do who I was in my life and it was just all of this stuff that was like ultimately like suffocating me and just holding me so bound together. And ultimately this experience had just then dropped all of those cages. It all dropped, it all shed. And I felt who I was without any of that binding. And it was the most freeing, experience I had ever felt. And I just felt the interconnectedness of all things. And that I was totally just like liberated and free from all of these things that I thought I needed to be. And then as the medicine started to wear off, all of them started to come up one by one by one. And I could feel the weight of each one as it came on. And I got tighter and tighter and tighter. And I was like, oh no, I don't wanna go back to that. I don't wanna be that again. And it was a pretty jolting experience. And then from there, I just knew like, wow, I have a lot of work to do, but I was so grateful that I had seen who I was without it all. And then after that, the real work began. And then it was this journey that I've been on ever since of, well, I guess I started before, but the medicine obviously really showed me a lot more. And then I've been on this journey to really just shed all of that and come into who I really am underneath it all. It's so beautiful and it echoes not only my life, but I think so many people listening or watching, like you go through this life with such a heavy load and like, would say through a large part of your adult years like you just have more and more stacked upon you like you have these expectations like you mentioned about what you're supposed to be in a career who you're supposed to be then you have all these incredible external things coming at you like whether it's through music or whether it's through videos or movies or your relationships of just these pretty much irrational expectations of what it takes to be a whole person or to be someone you're proud of and like I love the metaphor of the camel because the camel you can stack so much on the camel like every it just takes it and takes it and takes it until it can't take anymore and what it sounds like to me in which you're explaining and I know this through my own life is that you get to a point Where, you know, it's like that saying, the straw that broke the camel's back. Like that one last thing gets piled on you and you just collapse. And then all of a sudden you're all alone out in the middle of the desert and you're like, what the fuck am I going to do now? Now what? I've just lost everything. All these burdens on my back. But it's also that freeing moment where you're like, okay. maybe I don't need to carry all this crap. Maybe all this stuff I spilled off my back, maybe I don't even need to be carrying it around. And it does feel like liberation. It's so interesting to me how this thing that felt like slavery, this thing that felt like carrying all these buckets, once you set them down, you're like, That weight is gone. And even though I still see the echo of those expectations around me, I feel really free. Maybe I can think of different things. And that's when the new insights begin to come in. That's when those insights of like, what do I really want to do? Who am I really? Who am I trying to be? And why am I trying to be that person? I think it echoes that idea of the camel. That's what I want people to know, Jessica, is that I think for so long we've been carrying this myth of the hero's journey. But I love this breakdown better from the camel to the lion to the child. And I think we've done a good job of... sort of explaining the camel. And I got some people in the chat that are lining up to ask questions, but I'm going to get to you guys all over here in a second. I want to get through the whole mythology of it because I want people to begin to see these three different modalities. Cause I think it explains a better path through life. And so I'm going to move on to the next part. That was the camel. May I have one more thing on that? Yeah, go. The camel. Yeah. It's, I think the camel is very much aligned with the, the, um, term, the persona within you, right? So it's a mask that we put on for society. It's who we need to be, who we need to show up as we think we need to based on the society's structures. And, you know, it can be super liberating when it comes off. I can also tell you it's very confusing and it can feel almost frightening at first. You're almost in shock. There's a process of that part of you that has to die. And there's a lot of confusion. There's grief. there's anger that has to go with that process of kind of letting that part of you release. And sometimes you want to hold on because you're afraid of who you are without it. And because you don't know who you are without it, there's a lot of like fear and confusion that can come with that experience. And like I said, I think what a lot of people may not even recognize is there's also this experience of anger and grief that may come with it. you're angry at the system you're angry at you know people around you um and uh there's like this frustration almost at yourself too like how could I be so silly for adopting that for so long so there's this challenging or maybe like a bit of turmoil that some people can go through as well um and then I think it gets to this point of grief but grief is a really um beautiful emotion while it's so challenging. It's an emotion that can bring you, if you fully allow it, it's an emotion that can bring you to the state of authenticity if you fully surrender to it. So it's kind of this path that can kind of bring you to that next phase of just becoming more of yourself. And you can kind of use those emotions, like the rage, the anger, the grief, to channel into something positive. So you take those negative emotions, negative emotions, and you channel it into something constructive and positive to now create in a beautiful way. That makes me think I heard recently people and I've been hearing this quite a bit lately. Maybe it's just where I am. But when you talk about taking off the mask and you talk about sitting with grief, for me, what comes up is like you begin to see the core wound that got you where you are and you begin to see like I've been protecting this core wound and using the anger, and I've been using the sadness to drive me. But when you really take off that mask and you sit in grief long enough, and it usually comes through tragedy, but when you can sit with that core wound long enough, you realize that, wow, this thing that I hated about myself or this thing that was so unfair in my life has been driving me. And for me, I start to think like, that's kind of impressive. Like you've been using this wound, this thing that caused you so much pain to drive you. And I think the transformation, at least for me, was like, okay, well, what if I let it, what if I use that wound, not in a negative way, but what if I use it in a positive way? What if I begin seeing this very core wound, the thing that I was trying to hide from everybody? But it was driving me. What if I let it shine? What does it look like if I look at it from another angle? What is it if I embody it? And for me, that core wound was like from I am not important. You know, I held on to this thing for so long, just trying to always make everyone happy and not show these things. All of a sudden I learned that core wound taught me that I am radical empathy. Like I can identify with all these other people because I thoroughly understand on some level what they're going through because I have sat with it for forty years. Let me help other people start walking through it. And then you realize that core wound that you had begins to be the shining beacon that kind of lights the way for yourself and other people. What are your thoughts on that? Well, then it's a beautiful, beautiful way of expressing that, like, ultimately the process of alchemy, right? Because when you're living through that wound, and this is shadow work, right? When you have this wound and this wound, and I dealt with it myself, I mean, the wound of just unworthiness. Yeah, totally. not being good enough it made me so successful in my career because I always had to like just do more I I could never stop because it wasn't ever enough because I had to do better even no matter how good I was doing good I was doing I needed to do better because it wasn't good enough for me or what I believed that other people thought of me so when you're working out of that energy that's an energy of fear right and that drains you and it's an energy leak And that negatively impacts you in so many ways. But then when you can shift and ultimately alchemize that emotion into a different energetic state, then you can now use that, like you said, it becomes, it moves from this, I guess, I don't want to keep using the word negative and positive, but it becomes this emotion that is draining And it alchemizes into an emotion that is in alignment with your authenticity. And through that, you are now to your point, you're shining and you're filling yourself up. And now you're using an energy that is filling your cup and helping you to overflow so you can give more and be more of yourself through that aspect of you versus that same energy used in a different way or from a different place. is something that drains and ultimately can sicken you and the people around you. So yeah, it's a beautiful way to kind of explain the alchemy of the shadow into a gift. And that's the process of just finding, utilizing your creative faculties to find ways to, and you know, you're being very creative by identifying that you are an empath, extremely empathetic, and to use that empathy in ways that can serve others. And that really is like one of the joys of being human is the ability to create with something that you already have inside of you. And it's so funny. It's so funny because this thing that you're holding on to that made you so sad, you just start seeing, like, the only thing left to do is laugh. Like, oh, my God, that's so crazy because you get past the anger. But I think it's a beautiful segue as we're talking about that transition to moving into the second part of the mythology, which is the lion. So I want everyone listening to this part, like... Like the lion feels like freedom, like that rebellion, that roar. But we all get stuck there sometimes. I know that I do. I feel like I'm still there sometimes. Like this idea of rebellion is freedom, but it also kind of seems like a trap. So here's the second part, ladies and gentlemen. The second part. is that the camel becomes the lion. In the solitude of the desert, the lion roars. It shatters the idols it once carried. It says, I will not obey. I will not kneel. The lion is the spirit of rebellion, the sacred no that cuts through illusion. it wages war against the great dragon called thou shalt but rebellion too is a chain the lion fights to be free but it cannot yet create it knows only how to destroy but not yet how to dance and when the lion's roar fades into a whisper when all the dragons lie in dust the final transformation waits I think we've been talking about that segue into the lion but maybe you can tell us a story about being the lion or your thoughts on that Yeah, I do believe the line is that period of destruction and kind of the anger and the grief and that rage and that comes out through that process. Like, why was I doing that? Why did I listen to that? You know, whoever agreed, when did I ever agree? yeah or to to that rule like whoever made that rule up and why why is that my role that I have to listen to so yeah I mean that's you know it's I think it's um you know I think when you're you're going into like a pretty big transition in your life and especially if you're working with psychedelic medicine there can be some pretty big um transformational shifts that happen um since obviously it's a catalyst kind of shift you into your awareness and consciousness And I think that there's like these big overarching shifts that can happen where just everything gets shooken up and everything is now just in this kind of period of destruction. And that is that really challenging point where you just have to let these parts of you go and die and shed and ultimately like create space for new. But I also think that where there's this kind of like overarching shift you then have to go through these periods on all of these individual aspects of yourself. I don't believe that this flow is just one and done. I believe that there's an overarching process that happens. But then it has to happen on each individual part of you that you have created as part of your persona. Because when we have our persona, there's various complexes that sit under that persona. and those complexes are ultimately um energetic charges of um comprised of different memories experience suppressed emotions and now all of these complexes are going to be really angry that you know you've had this experience and now you want to like let it all go so now the ego comes in and those complexes really step forward and they're like ah you know I'm here to protect you we're not doing that I have built up a lot of walls here to protect this inner child and we're not doing that. So it's a, it's a very, it can be a very challenging time. Um, and, and this is really the work of, um, of being in, being with your shadows and going into your, um, unconscious parts of yourself to identify, um, these various complexes that ultimately need to be seen and need to be understood. And, um, there's again, like another, um, kind of, uh, know I'll say again alchemy process that has to happen with these because um they have built up um these complexes or parts of you uh if you're you know thinking more in the lines of ifs have built up so much energy and um and guards around parts of you that have been wounded so you can't go in it by force so this process of like destruction happens But then you need to find a different way to engage with these aspects of yourself to have them feel safe enough to transition into like the next phase or different phases. So, you know, I know specifically for myself, I have definitely been in a period for a number of years in working in the shadows and it can be quite exhausting sometimes. And there's a lot of different things. I think once you start to become conscious of them, of these different aspects of yourself, there's a lot of work to do. And it can be quite overwhelming, but at the same time, to our point earlier, it can also be quite liberating. And I always just encourage doing it very, with a lot of compassion for yourself and with a lot of grace with yourself and to explore these different aspects Yeah, it sounds to me like if I speak from personal experience, like that sort of rebellion, it just leads to the burning down of everything. For me, it manifested in like, just rebelling as hard as I can at a place I worked for so long and just tearing everything down like all the anger all the emotions I'm like you know what these guys are gonna get it watch this and you start doing these things like I always start speaking in front of like large groups like a fiery speeches at a union hall and it felt so good to get the recognition of people that were being unheard and then that kind of feeds itself a little bit like all these people are like Yeah, I wish I would have said that or hey, thanks for saying that. And then you learn that that sacred roar is so powerful. And for me, I got caught up in it. And I'm like, that's nothing. Watch this. And you just start roaring even louder. And you're like, this is crushing. This is so awesome. But then all of a sudden comes the backlash. And then comes the people that are like, you fucking been talking way too much. Watch this. And then you start losing things. And you learn, wow, that roar was powerful. that aggressive nature that I had, it felt really good, but there's a lot of damage that I did. And it's through that evolution of awareness, like I am powerful. That's amazing. I didn't know I was that powerful. But now you're set to rest in these ashes over here of what's left over. And that's sort of, for me, that was like an evolution of awareness. Like I got to see the pain of it, but then I also got to see like this other side of it. And it sounds to me that that's what's kind of happening in this stage is that Your awareness is sort of growing bigger and with the bigger awareness, you see more good, but you also feel more pain on some level. Does that sound accurate to you? Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. You have to experience it all. You have to feel it all. Because when you're not conscious of it, you're numbing it, right? You're kind of like you're aware of it. And it's driving you. To some degree, you're aware. That's why you're getting triggered really easy. And now that you're aware of it, it's just like, what the hell? Truly, it's just like, what the hell happened? And, you know, I think that we are I was just listening to a really interesting podcast that a friend sent me called The Emerald. And it actually talks about the roar and that we as as a world are in this destruction phase. And it's been going on since, you know, the period of COVID, really. Right. It's been this destruction of all of the systems that have been created. And, you know, you can see it on the news where it's just everything is so much destruction. Right. And because of this, there's this kind of like underlying war that is being built, built up in everybody where everyone is so fed up. They're so frustrated or so. So many people anyway are so frustrated with how things are going and all of the pain that um, that, that people are experiencing and all of the suffering, um, that is happening right now. And it's just, it's, it's a lot of very pent up emotions and these are not, um, because it's happening, um, across the world too. It's not only our emotions that we're tapping into, it's now like the collective emotions of, of everybody, of others that we're experiencing. And some of this is like quite ancestral. or like very deeply archetypal that we're experiencing. So there's this like upheaval now that is coming, that people are feeling, and it's really challenging energy for people to experience. So that's why a lot of people right now are really dealing with like you know, almost like a confusion around how to handle all of the energies that they're feeling, all of the challenging emotions that they're feeling, because it's kind of to the point because it's not just within an individual, it's very collective that we almost don't have a choice but to feel it. So it's even pushing it up for people that have been trying to suppress it and trying to avoid it. So there's this period of like now, you know, kind of the shadow of the world is coming through But again, this is destruction because it's breaking down the things that are antiquated and that are no longer for us. And that's why the work of shadow work and doing a very conscientious work. conscientious work of identifying these aspects of us are so important because we need to gently and gracefully work with these aspects of us to understand them and help them transition. Because otherwise, like to your point, those parts of us can cause a lot of damage. if they're not, because they've been kind of like held down for so long, right? When you've been restrained or parts of you have been restrained for so long, as soon as you break through the cage or, you know, the handcuffs, all of a sudden you're ready to rage. So this is kind of like this upheaval that is happening. It's really important that people start to do their inner work to explore these challenging emotions so that they can support a, let's say, a more gentle of these emotions because they, to your point, they can be so beautiful and they can be used for so much good, so much good. I'm going to totally butcher this story, but I'm going to totally butcher it because somebody told me a while ago and I can't remember, but there was a guy, there was a lot going on and he was so fed up and so angry with what was happening in the world that he ended up, hopefully you'll know it and you can chime in, but he ended up by creating this concert. I think it was at the Wimbledon stadium maybe, but he created this concert and he called all of these like amazing artists and said, hey, we're doing this concert here. And then he called the stadium or the location said, hey, I have all these amazing artists that want to come and do this concert. And obviously he fits to both of them to bring them all together. And by doing so, they ended up raising so much money and awareness to really help this kind of like cultural shift happen. that was needed at the time. So anyway, it's this process now of like, how do we take this anger and these parts of ourselves or whatever fear, whatever the emotion is that's coming through and now channel into something really powerful and really beautiful to help us shift into a better state and a better place. Not only like yourself, obviously you do the work on yourself first, but by doing that work, you can find now okay what is my unique gift that I can give to the world and give to others and that's where the healing of not only yourself but the community and and um the you know the world starts to happen that's a beautiful story I can't help but think like That's where we are now. And it's interesting to think about the collective versus the individual, because you're right. I see so much destruction out there. And I don't think it's a coincidence that I've seen that same level of destruction in my own story, where I am now, right after COVID. Like, it makes so much sense to see in yourself the frustrations of society all around you. Like, there's no avoiding it. matter what you do no matter what age you are it's such a transition right now and it is I think a lot of people are worried about like there is lots of evidence like it's everywhere on tv it's in the music it's everywhere to see this incredible uprising that's happening all around the world There's riots going on everywhere. Maybe there have always been riots, but it seems elevated to me on some level to see the level of political chaos, to see societal chaos, to see financial chaos. Like all these systems are just beginning to be broken down. But at the same time, there's this new energy emerging. Like there's like these whispers of like a golden age and creators are starting to come out. Like I talked to a guy yesterday, my friend Benjamin George. Ben, I love you. I hope you're out there listening. He's been creating so much now with different AI systems to put more beauty out into the world than he ever could have before. It seems like technology is right at our fingertips. Yeah, I hear the chaos, but who amongst you is going to create? What are your thoughts? that's the medicine right that is it is yeah that is the medicine so this is a time to create and this is a time to and like I think so many people they think of create they just think of art it's like oh I'm not creative I don't know how to do art so I can't do this you know but it's like you you that is this this process of like now going inwards and exploring what your unique gift is and sometimes that is the process of going into the darkness in order to find out what lies underneath that and once you can find out what your unique gift is Then it's your opportunity to kind of create this new version of yourself, this version of you that's able to express your gift and offer that in a way that is unique and ultimately creative to you, to your own self. um authenticity so um everyone has a gift that they can offer to the world I mean literally everyone um and this is a point a very very very um critical point in in times where we have to find those gifts and then go share them um and and I agree a hundred percent that creation especially like that is the medicine for depression it's the answer to for anxiety It's a really beautiful tool that we have and actually that we're supposed to be using. But I think going back to the first part of this talk, the camel, we're so, I guess, kind of structured into not creating. It's like you have to abide by these rules, stay in these boxes, stay in these lines, and do not color outside of the lines. So when we start to get to that point of this itch to create or this itch to give, it feels so scary. And many of us have ancestral wounds too, where we were shunned or beaten or killed even for speaking or for creating or for showing up. for the greater good so there's a lot of like not even just the stuff that we're dealing with like of just coming into your own and how scary that can be and then kind of putting it out there for all to see but we also carry um deeper patterns ancestral patterns that that make it even more challenging for us to step out and especially during a very kind of like um a time that is is quite unbalanced. And there's obviously a lot of turmoil going on. But that's, I think, where the power really starts to, the power within you really needs to drive you, right? So you can use that to, and when I say power, it's like your own kind of like uniqueness, ultimately. And it's finding that inspiration within to just ultimately kind of be be more of yourself for the world. Yeah, I love that. It always seems to me like I was talking to Erin Raskin a while back and she had mentioned to me something about tragedies. And when I think about, you know, the collective tragedies that are happening right now or just in our personal lives, they seem to be portals. They seem to be the only way that you can get to the truest version of yourself. And you wouldn't wish these tragedies on anybody, whether you lost somebody you love or You lose something in life or you just have so much stress on you, you end up with this crushing anxiety or depression. But all of these seem to be portals to a better version of yourself. They seem to take you through the dark where all that's left is the light inside of you. And until you recognize it, until you recognize in the darkness that this thing that's lighting you up is your gift to share with other people. It seems like a portal to me. What are your thoughts when I say portals and tragedy? Oh yeah, I agree a hundred percent. So I feel like there's like kind of two, I don't know if the portal is the same or they're different, but there's this portal of tragedy that kind of like shakes your world up, right? Yeah. Something so destructing in your life happens that everything falls apart. And, you know, sometimes like, you know, whether it's a sickness, a crisis, whatever it might be, it is something that happens so that everything has to everything that you build or everything that you've kind of set up in the structure around you has to fall. You have to have to now kind of shed and and crumble parts of you that you have that have been so so close to you for so long. And then I think after that, there's this portal of fear. right? And the fear is such a powerful portal. And it is just stepping into the unknown, really. And I know for a fact from my own experience, and I just hundred percent to be true or know it to be true that every time you step through that portal of fear there's something beautiful on the other side but it is so so scary to walk through that portal but I know every time that I did it has been some of the most challenging times in my life even like the littlest ones are like it just feels so overwhelming to the point where it's almost like paralyzing that I can't do it. But once I do, everything opens up on the other side. And it's just this, you step into another world once you walk through this portal of a fear that you've held onto for so long. So yeah, I definitely believe in these portals that take you into another version of yourself, another version of your consciousness and your experience in life. It's so true like it feels like part of you is dying and that's what's so scary is like part of you is going to like you know walk through this thing imagine knowing I'm gonna walk through this thing and part of me is going to die like for me that's where the fear comes from because you once you get close enough to it like you know like I'm going to kill this part of me. That's such a powerful thing to say. It's almost suicidal in a way. I'm not talking about that aspect of suicide where I want anybody to think about that or do that, but on the context of imagine killing an old part of yourself. so that a new part of yourself can grow like you have the dagger in your hand you must do this in order to grow like that's so frightening and speaking of incredible powerful people that know exactly what I'm talking about I want to bring in my friend jesse monreal over here jesse I love what you're doing powerful speaker if you're checking out this podcast right now you should click on her link jesse monreal incredible individual she says unfortunately I think it's so easy to throw your hands up and take a borderline nihilistic view on the state of the world but at the end of the day the more people who do that the more it comes true it's not only hard to try and create and contribute but it feels useless and pointless but it's truly the only thing that will save not only you but those around you and the more of us who do it the more it pushes against the darkness this is coming from true experience jess has got an incredible story but what do you think about that jessica what are your thoughts Oh yeah, a hundred percent. I think that's, that's kind of the, where a lot of people are at. It's like, it feels like why there's nothing to do. Why bother? Right. It's like, there's a sense of hopelessness. I think when we get to such a, an intense state of, of crisis, there is a sense of hopelessness and, and it's very understandable. Right. And that is coming where you have to kind of come into this inner power that you have and just take it into your own hands and just say like, okay, whether it is or isn't, it's still something that I need to do. It's still something like if I... if you can contribute anything to this world it is taking care of yourself and becoming the the best most authentic version of yourself that and finding your unique gifts and then offering them and shining and bringing them out to the world it literally is the best thing that you can do and um you know I encourage people that are that are struggling with with everything that's going on in the world to maybe like use that as motivation to say like, OK, well, if I don't know like exactly what my unique gifts are, sometimes that's kind of like figure out to, you know, a lot of times it's hard to even recognize what they are. But if you could at least say, OK, well, what can I offer to the situation? And even if it's something as simple as like, creating a picture and putting it out for someone to see beauty or kind of like creating a small little gathering within your little block and just bringing people together so that they can experience a relief from what is going on and some sense of like joy in being in community. gathering people together is obviously super important right now because people are feeling very disconnected, very alone. So there are so many things that people can do where they may think it's nothing and it could mean the world to somebody. And that one little thing could just transform that person to go do something through themselves. And it's also very rewarding when you kind of take action on something. Again, even if it feels so small to you, You have no idea who it's benefiting and who it's impacting, not only yourself, because now you're using that. You're kind of transforming something that's a challenging energy into something that's a higher vibrational state. But it's also helping the others around you because now they get to engage in some sort of beauty because what we need right now is beauty. And I don't need physical beauty. I mean, the beauty of offering aspects of yourself and the beauty of just seeing, you know, nature, seeing something that's not trauma or not crises. Something as simple as just like creating a sense of joy for somebody or like even just like being really nice to people or really kind. I mean, that's a superpower right there is kindness, especially when we're in a time of everyone's so overwhelmed, so stressed. Like, literally, somebody's superpower could be kindness. And that spreading kindness around the world right now, like, could do wonders, you know, and finding new ways to kind of show up and be kind to people. So I think it's honestly, like, simple things that people have and possess within them that can really be transformative in ways that they don't even know. That's so beautiful. When I hear that, it makes me think that we're moving away from from transactions into being you know what I mean by that for so long we have had this transactional economy we're like okay look I do this and I get paid that therefore that's what I'm worth but when you spoke earlier and what jesse's comment was alluding to to me is that it's so easy to get stuck in this nihilistic idea like who fucking cares like it doesn't matter but that is such a bullshit story it does matter every single action matters and when you do it with intention when you get to this idea where You're doing it right now like just having a conversation with someone or maybe you're in a state where you're not feeling good But you go out and you talk to someone and you share a story with them and you see their eyes light up and you realize that the contagious nature of your kindness has left you and Entered somebody else and now it's radiating outwards and then you get this epiphany of like oh my god Feel great. I've had it all along this thing that I was worried about like this thing that that I didn't know like just being me Just going out and sharing something with somebody it radiates outwards and it's beyond transactional It's something that we all have and then we can all give it any time as long as we're willing to see that creativity and didn't for me that's where the beauty comes in like oh my gosh, you don't I You don't need that transactional idea. And I think we're breaking that habit. We've been conditioned our whole lives to see ourselves as a transaction, what we're worth because of what we do, what we're worth because of what someone is willing to pay us. But that does not, that is not a value in some of the value is so much bigger than that. When you begin to understand that you realize how valuable you are and you can make yourself better from that aspect. Yeah, absolutely. I agree a hundred percent. Yeah. I think that we are, um, almost programs like unconsciously that we're not worthy or we're not a value. And even like, think about Instagram or LinkedIn. I mean, all of it as helpful as it can be. It's also tools that just continue to play on insecurities and make you just unconsciously compare yourself to others and to feel unworthy or less than just because of what other people are presenting through social media or how people are presenting themselves or, you know, how people look or what they're doing, whatever it might be. And there's just like these constant, it's this constant loop, a feedback loop, if you're not like conscious of it, that could be like, playing underneath it all just saying showing you or perceiving you may be perceiving it as not good enough not good enough not good enough and I think that that's that's something that's kind of like programmed very young very early on in life when we're getting compared in grades and if we're good enough in school and how we rank in class you just carry that pattern out in um in life In all aspects, whether it's what you're paid or what your job is or what your car or your drive is or what your house is or where you live or what you're posting on social media or how someone else is showing up or like, you know, physical appearance, all these different things. And it's exhausting. And it really is about finding your own like innate worth. in a way that's not comparable. There's no comparable value that you can put on it to somebody else because it's innately yours. And we all have an innate worth that we carry. And it's a matter of just like honoring and appreciating ours as well as honoring and appreciating everyone else's. Yeah. Chains of comparison. It's everywhere around us. It's so hard to break, especially sometimes you'll get into those conversations or you'll be at the party where you're like, I really don't want to be here. And everyone is just comparing and measuring themselves. And it's like, so what do you do? do you mean what do I do let me tell you what I do I got a laundry list of things I do but it's it's so interesting to think about that move from comparison into compassion and I hope more people choose to do it I think it's a good segue here for the third part of this mythology where the lion becomes the child So the third, the lion becomes a child, not a child of ignorance, but a child of power. The child plays, the child creates. The child says a sacred yes to life. It builds new worlds with laughter. It dances with the chaos the lion once feared. It is innocence reborn through wisdom, playfulness crowned by courage. The child does not seek to conquer life. It seeks to co-create with life. What comes to your mind when we start talking about this transition? No, I love it. I love it. This is the journey of individuation, you know, in Jungian speak. And it's the process of like self-realization of just fully allowing yourself to live and experience life in the present now. You know, that's what kids do. They don't have um all of those different like structures and things placed on them um or they haven't accepted them already I should say and um because of that they're able to just like live so freely and abundantly in a way of like curiosity and excitement like everything is new everything is exciting everything is something to learn and experience and I think over time we just get like so like bogged down and exhausted. And that's kind of like that transition of like up. Right. And then you get to a certain point where it all breaks and then you have like all the grief, the anger, the shadow. But then you have to start to come out of that. You have to start to come up for air and you have to start to be able to like. look for things that can bring you joy and look for things that can bring you experiences of happiness. We literally have to create it. We have to create our own happiness. And happiness, it's an emotion, right? It's fleeting. So it's not going to be there all the time. But this world of curiosity, I think that we have to come into in order to heal ourselves is so incredibly important on this process of individuation because it's where we can breathe again. It's where we can be ourselves again. It's where we can start to create from. And it's really... It's something that I've actually been working on. I mentioned I've been very much like in the shadows for quite some time and it gets extremely overwhelming and really can pull you down and you have to learn how to come out of it, step out of it and go back in to do the work, step out of it and go back in to do the work. And right now where I'm at is like really just like taking a step out for an extended period of time because I need to create this kind of like pattern of play and this pattern of experiencing positive emotions and seeing things, always looking for something, the silver lining, the positive, looking around for beauty everywhere I'm at because it's refreshing, right? And it's like this drink of water and hydration that I've needed for so long. So I believe that this is like the medicine that people really need right now is to like amidst all the chaos that is going on to find the beauty in the world and to find the beauty in people and what people have to offer and in nature and everything around us because it's there. We have just been so if you think about like programming, everything we see on the news is that and so much that we see on social media is that and so much that people are going through right now is challenging. everything around you is pulling you down. And it's kind of like this negative vortex. So you have to, and this vortex is like, it's like quicksand, right? It really pulls you down. So you have to be the one that is actively pulling yourself out by searching for things that can make you happy or bring you joy or find play or creation. And it is an active choice that you have to make And it's not always easy. It can feel like it can feel like a lot of work. And you're like, well, this isn't supposed to be work. It's supposed to be play. But that's the process of making it more natural because we've forgotten it. So you have to make it more natural by doing it intentionally, even if it feels like it's challenging, even if it feels like like I even know people when they do it, they'll start to experience guilt and shame for doing it. Because other people are suffering or they've experienced, they've been in that state for so long that it feels scary to be out of like the negative state or a lower emotion. It's scary almost. Like what's going to happen? What's going to happen next? And you don't want to feel that fall from this one state of happiness to the state of sadness. So it's almost where people would rather be in a place that they've been in for so long habitually. because they know it, right? It's known for them. And when they step out into this other place, even if it feels good, it almost feels like a very scary place to be because you're not used to it and you're just like, how long until something crumbles, right? So it's a process that you have to intentionally do over and over and over again until it starts to become more of your normal state of experience. It's so well said. For me, and I think a lot of people listening to this, it feels foreign. What do you mean I feel great and I'm not worried about all these problems over here? That sort of freedom is itself scary. I like the idea of having to work with it and understand that this is my new state. And it reminds me of psychedelic journeys because you take these big dose journeys and for a while you escape all of the negative feedback loops or you escape all of the mundane life that you're normally surrounded in and you get high. You get to look down and see everything that's happening and you realize, oh, it's just part of the process. It's not that big of a deal. But then when you come down from the trip, now you're back on the road walking again You tend to forget unless you can maintain that connection to the higher self or maintain that connection. For me, that's how I think psychedelics should be done. Like, yeah, look, you need to go up to the top of the mountain and look down at the route every now and then. You get to see the boulders. You get to see where the cliff drops off. Then you got to go back down there and hike it and remember that. you know and it's so easy a lot of people get caught up and like well I just want to be on the mountaintop like you can't stay up there like you get to go up there and look but you can't stay up there because you know you're not doing anything it's kind of crazy to think about yeah that's it the human experience right we are going to no matter how like how much we work to stay in this to get into the state of peace and happiness and joy like it's that's not the full human experience and and eventually like if you're just in that state all the time like it'll, I don't want to say it'll get a little boring, but you know, you're not feeling the fullness of it, right? Because the fullness of it, you experience the fullness of it through duality, right? So you experience the fullness of joy and the experience of happiness and the experience of peace through the duality of, you know, its opposites. So this fluctuation that we go through in the human experience is actually, um, um you know normal and I would say uh you know to some degree important for you to experience the fullness of it um and I I think that this kind of like practice of coming into the state is is really um what will help you find ways to continue to get there. And I believe you can do that through finding creative practices that light you up. And that could be drawing, it could be painting. Like for me, it's dancing. I absolutely love to dance and it just like lights me up and it's something that I forgot. how much I love it and how much it's a core part of my being. But so it's finding these aspects of yourself through play that you can tap into when you're in these states and you need that medicine, because it is medicine, right? Dance is medicine, music is medicine, art is medicine, creating is medicine. so it's finding even photography like whatever it might be it's finding your unique medicine that you have this kind of like medicine kit that you can come to so when you get into these states based on whatever happens in your life you can um you can go to these these different um tools if you will to to find and experience um the healing that you need and to remember who you are outside of that kind of like vortex of challenging emotions that we can get sucked into. And like, I love what you said about the psychedelic journeys. Like I believe oftentimes when you are experiencing that state of oneness or that state of joy or peace, that's a remembering of who you are inside. And of course it amplifies it. So it amplifies it pretty intensely, but it does so, so that you can remember who you are. I remember when I was dealing with anxiety and panic disorder in my early twenties, I was diagnosed with panic disorder through a challenging relationship that I got out of and the only place I felt safe was in my car driving the only place that I could feel safe so when I went to therapy and to try to work on it she did a body scan for me and when she did a body scan I was like oh my god like it took me a few sessions to even be able to close my eyes and do it because I was scared I just was not in a place of trust and and uh when I finally like actually did I was like oh my god what is this feeling and she's like jessica this is what you should feel like all the time but I was in such a state of panic and anxiety all the time that was my new normal I mean I was having nightmares all the time so that was my normal state so I forgot what it felt like to be somebody else and that's what these um these emotions that end up turning into what we would call diagnoses or conditions they're ultimately just like vortex states of emotion that we get sucked into because we forget because we've also almost like disconnected from those aspects of us that can feel um other emotions like joy peace happiness I love it like I love the word remembering Like it speaks to me of neuroplasticity. It speaks to me of recreating yourself in a way that's positive or remembering, like when you put things back together in a way. And that to me is what happens on some of these journeys. And what you explained is you get a chance to reconfigure yourself in a way That is whatever you want it to be because you can change your memories like you can you can add new awareness to that memory and be like, well, it wasn't my fault when this thing happened. And now you remember it a different way. And that allows you to move forward in a way with more abilities and more awareness that you didn't know before. So when we remember things, we get an opportunity to go back and fix things that happened in time, which it's pretty miraculous when you start to think about your ability to do that and to remember what it's like to be whole, to remember what it's like to feel joy. And in some ways, I think that gives you the opportunity to be in that state. So I don't know. It's mind-blowing. Yeah, go ahead. It's almost a, it's soul retrieval, right? Because if there's aspects of you got lost in a period of time that you've been so fragmented from that you forget what they feel like to be like that. And, you know, I think as you do work and you start to kind of like undo some of the patterns and, and work on some of the traumas and, and become more conscious and more aware you can start to you know, there's work that you can do to actually like go do physical soul retrieval to bring those fragmented parts back, back to you. um but I think as you move forward in your journey of healing um like I know that I've gotten glimpse of like who I was in in high school uh and you know uh there was such an innocence that I that I carried um such like a loving trusting um almost like maybe naive innocence that I that I carried but that was like really beautiful And then that part of me, I totally shut off. And it's been a process to allow her to come alive again within me and to be able to feel safe to come alive again and live through me. Because that part of me really got tucked away in another place in the unconscious world because it didn't feel safe to live or to be in a relationship again. So it's been quite a journey to bring her back. But it was such a beautiful experience to remember her. And I encourage everybody to think about who you were in different aspects of your life. Who were you before a trauma happened? Who were you before an experience happened? Who were you before you got overwhelmed with stress? Who were you before you took on a certain career that maybe hasn't felt very fulfilling? and remember those parts of you. And that's part of this process that you can do on your own of just remembering that and really try to get in touch of that part of you, even journal, like, well, who was I? Like, what did I feel? What did I do? How did I live? How did I show up in the world? How did I present myself in community? How did I feel? Like, what was I doing for activities? And just like exploring those parts of you is also a way to remember and start to then kind of, bring them alive again, awaken those parts of you. You can kind of connect to those parts of you again. And then it's this process of then integrating that in a way that's like, you know, letting that part of you know you're safe. You know, I've learned through that experience. I'm not gonna let that happen again to kind of like really allow it to integrate back into you. That's such awesome advice. Where were you and who were you the last time you really felt love? If you can just start there, then you can get back to that part of your life. It's super helpful for me. Thank you for that. I got you ready for some questions. We got some questions stacking up in the chat over here. Thank you to everybody who's been so patient. My friend Maya in Austin, she says, if the hero's journey is dead, who's writing the next myth? That's great. Thanks, Maya. Yeah, I'd love to write one at some point. That'd be pretty cool. Aren't you writing one right now? I think we all are. I think we're recreating history right now. know and I think there's definitely parts of the hero's journey that you know that will pull into it I think all of this is kind of like learning and then kind of like recreating um recreating it but I think we're creating it together I do I think that we're creating it together and then at some point somebody's kind of look at look at everything that's happened in the full transition and be like oh wow this was uh a massive like change and like it correlated to this and and you know put it out very eloquently so I think it's something that we're we are creating together and So yeah, I'm excited to see it. I love that. And I think it adds some power to people out there that might be feeling like what they're doing isn't making a difference or they feel like they're not being seen. Like we're all co-creating together. When people go and look back on this time in history, they're going to like, look at all these people that individually found a way to give to the whole. Like, I think that that is going to be what people look on. I think we're writing that, like you said, we're writing that myth right now. And we don't know the end because we're right in it. Like, you can't, if you're a character in a story, you don't know the end of it, but you know what your part is. And maybe your part is whatever you're doing right now. Like, you're doing it right now. Whatever your part is, you're doing it right now. If you want a bigger role, just step into the bigger role. But I think we all are co-creating. That was an awesome question, Maya. Yeah, I love that. And just remember, even just like creating a garden and putting like flowers out front so somebody can look at it and be like, oh, it's so beautiful. You know, like littlest things that you can do, every little thing that you do like to create beauty is beneficial. So like never think that you're not doing enough by doing something, even like the smallest thing, because it's not small. it's not and I love the idea of a garden when I was in hawaii when I got my house over there still but I had like this rad shamanic garden where like I planted ayahuasca I planted like I planted all like psychotropic veritas I planted like all these mushrooms I had like the sickest shamanic garden in the world out there and I had to leave but like in my mind I was like you know what somewhere somebody is gonna find this and maybe this ayahuasca vine grows a thousand years and like who knows it's because I planted it over there it's like you're always giving back and like the idea of the garden is so amazing Shout out to Clint Kiles. If you guys are hanging out with us, Clint Kiles has an amazing podcast. Check him out on YouTube. Check him out on Spotify. But he says, Doc Askins wrote the sequel. We got to get Doc back on here to talk about it. But let me shout out to Sophia. Sophia from Vancouver. She says, if we're not here to fix ourselves, what are we here to build? That's right. I mean, that's a great, you have to start with yourself. You know, they always say like, you know, if you're in a relationship, the best thing you can do for the relationship is work on yourself. Right. And, you know, and, and, you know, I want to encourage to like, um, fixing ourselves to always look at it, at it as a positive way in a positive, um, reframing, like, how are we just coming back to ourselves? Like really is what it is. Like, how are we coming back to the truest nature of ourselves? And by coming back to the truest nature of yourself, that's where you're able to, um, to be like the truest expression of who, of who you were meant to be and what you're meant to offer in this world. So, um, yeah. And by doing that, that's really what you're, you're, It's really how you're helping to heal yourself, your friends, your family, your community, the greater world, really. Yeah. And I think so many of the problems we fix in ourselves allow us to become someone who can fix those broader problems in life. Because it's starting off small. You learn to fix it in yourself, and then that allows you to see it somewhere else. Like, oh, I know how to fix this. So by fixing it in yourself, you do become a builder of sorts, a builder of community, a builder of relationships. And it's really cool to see. yeah I'm super grateful for all the experiences that I've had like even they've been so dark and so challenging sometimes like without going through them um I wouldn't be able to uh to you know share information that might help others through that experience so it's it's you know it's definitely something that I think can if you can again do that reframing and say like well yeah it's shitty that that happened but at the same time now um look how stronger I've become look who I've become because of it and then I think you also start to like draw people towards you that you may be able to um to help through that experience yeah it's really well said it that's why sharing things that are vulnerable that like you might feel shame for and maybe they are shameful but if you can find the courage to get that out there where other people can heal, like, maybe that, I like to think of it like this, like, We're talking to younger versions of ourselves all the time by sharing the things that were painful for us. And if you do that, you might help someone where you were ten years ago get through it faster. And in a way, that's giving back to yourself. That's giving back to community. And it could just be a simple conversation. It could be journaling or it could be going out and having that conversation with someone in a coffee shop or something like that. It's profound to think about how our experiences radiate outwards if we're willing to share them. Yeah, I mean, that's been so much of my healing journey too. It's like when I just didn't know what to do. I mean, I remember being like the concept of self-love. I remember Googling, like, how do you love yourself? Like I had no idea at that point, you know, it just was such a foreign concept to me. And I went on, you know, social media and I started to explore like self-love, hashtag self-love. And then I started to like listen and, you know, I had gotten out of a number of bad relationships at that point. So it was really like damaging. Yeah, it was. I had learned so much from listening to other people's experiences, and I'm so grateful for their vulnerability and for putting that out there because I just gained so much wisdom and knowledge and ways to do my own inner healing by listening to people's experiences. And even if they didn't share the fix or the tool, just the fact that they were sharing what had happened to them to know it wasn't just me. Yeah. That alone was medicine. So, you know, I shared this with you, but like one of the things that I've been working on in the shadow is like the fear of being seen. And it has been, oh my God, so hard to get on podcast and then share the podcast for so long. It's been quite the journey. I remember the first one I did, I didn't tell anyone I was going on it. I never shared it because I was so scared. But then it kind of caught into this point where it's just like, you know, I have been helped by so many people by them sharing their stories. And, you know, I wanted to be able to share my experiences as well because perhaps that might help people on their journey. And it was just something that I had to like kind of continue. I think I'm still in that portal here that I'm working through, but it's been, yeah, it's been quite the experience. And I think it's so important. Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. Noah from Brooklyn says, are we addicted to being lions because we fear becoming children? Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's this, um, it's, it's kind of like that pattern that I talked about where, um, you, the fear of unknowns. Even if that unknown can feel good at times, because it's something unknown, it's so scary for people and it's so scary just in general until you get comfortable with it that it's easier to stay in a state of emotions that are more familiar to you. So even if the feeling of grief or sadness or anxiety or fear, anger, whatever terms you want to use for it or vocabulary you want to use for it, because it's known, it's more comfortable to stay in that state. And again, you kind of like you can get swallowed up in these emotions, too. Like, remember, emotions are really like energetic charges. And the more energy and thoughts we give to them, the more power we give to those to those energetic charges, those emotions. And they really can become complexes. So we have to be careful within that state of the lion because you can get swallowed up in it. you can get swallowed up in those emotions and those experiences and those stories. And you're oftentimes like looking backwards, right? So when you're looking backwards or you're looking at the current state, it's hard to pull yourself out. And that's why there's this process of really like dipping your toe into the state of being a child. And like I said, when you do, there's so much like guilt and shame that you can experience and fear that you can experience when you do so, that you're just like waiting for the shoe to drop. Like when's it all going to break? When's it all going to fall down again? And like, it's always like, you know, the feeling of heartbreak or loss is worse than like staying in that state of anger. So even though stepping into that like um, child could feel good. You don't want to experience the heartbreak because you don't want to, you don't want to get hurt again. Right. Um, you don't want to get let down again. And there's just like, for me anyway, when I was doing a lot of work coming into it, which I've been doing for years now, I just remember being scared when I felt that way, like scared, like what's, when am I going to get the call that somebody, something happened to someone, someone got sick or someone got like hurt, you know, or something bad is going to happen. I getting into that state and just knowing and this is one of the things that helped me is knowing that look I've done so much work at this point that and I've I've experienced so much and I've gotten out of all these traumatic experiences and I'm here now so whatever does happen I'm gonna be able to get through it. And I have more awareness and knowledge and wisdom now that I can take care of myself in a different way so that I'm not gonna go back into that traumatic state or that PTSD experience or that like really kind of like challenging emotion. I have enough wisdom and tools now that I can step into the state of the child, step into the state of courage, of creativity, of joy, and know that if something does happen, and so just be comfortable that it is going to be fleeting and there is going to be ups and downs. But to know that if anything does happen, that I have enough support and tools now to handle it differently. So I'm not going to experience it in a way that is so damaging as it was before. So I think we have to find that strength within ourselves. And we just have to start to become our parents, stepping into the child. requires you to now be your parent, the parent that you kind of always needed. You know, our parents obviously did the best they could, but there was always things that we needed that maybe we didn't get. So it's remembering what we needed. So that way, when you step into the child and something does happen, you're now the parent that you always needed and you can take care of yourself no matter what happens. And that's just finding a certain level of trust within yourself that's really important in that third stage. Yeah, that's really well said. It makes me think, you know what, Noah, since you're from Brooklyn, that reminds me of, there was a great movie called A Bronx Tale. And in that Bronx Tale, it was about this young kid that had, his dad was like a bus driver, but he was a friend of the mob boss. And the kid asked both of them, and I'll put this question to you, Jessica, and to you, Noah, because you're from Brooklyn. The kid asks the mob boss, is it better to be loved or feared? And so, like, for those that know the movie, like, it's a pretty cool scene right there. But what do you think, Jessica? Like, when we look at today's world of power and, like, you've been in the corporate world, I've been in the corporate world, and I know people right now that love to be feared. Like, they love having that ability to instill fear in others. But it seems so sort of destructive in a way. But what do you think? Is it better to be loved or better to be feared? you know I I want to find a different okay what is the word I'm looking for? Because like, I don't know, you can see people be loved in a way that's not coming from, they're loved as though they're on a pedestal, you know, celebrities and stuff like that. Yeah, and then that puts people in a state of not being good enough when they're loving from that place. And, you know, if you're feared, obviously you're doing something that's, having control over people. So I wonder if a better word is respected or just appreciated for who you are. You know, maybe it's a it's a word, a softer term just to show like appreciation for someone or respect for someone and who they are. Of course, it's great to be loved. You know, I think you just want to make sure that that people are coming from that place in a place that is full and authentic and not from a place of lack. Because that takes power away from them. yeah it's really well said and maybe loved and feared is too it's not nuanced enough like those are two giant broad sweeping terms that can mean so different so many different things but it's a cool movie everybody should check it out who I got over I got dante from chicago and he says if the hero's journey ends with mastery what begins with innocence I think you're coming back to innocence in a way. I do think you're coming back to innocence. I mean, that's like, it's a different form of innocence though. I found myself coming back to a bit of innocence, because you get jaded through life. Right. But, um, innocence is, is not, if you're innocence in a way that's not naive to the point where you're going to get hurt again, you're, you're using innocence to, to look at the world from a new lens. Um, you're using innocence in a way, um, that again comes with curiosity and trust and acceptance of people, of things, of experiences. So I think that you're almost kind of like coming back to And I don't know, maybe people might not connect with that because when you think of master, you're thinking like strong and powerful and innocence to a lot of people is weak. But I think there's like innocence equates to vulnerability and vulnerability, I think, equates to authenticity. And authenticity is just on some charts is the highest state of being. Some will say it's enlightenment, but others will say it's authenticity. So I think that there's that's I think there's like a purity to innocence. Right. And if you're getting to a state of mastery, you also have to get to a state of purity. And I think that, you know, when I was thinking back to versions of myself, there was a purity, you know, before before things happened and parts of me got jaded. So it is coming back to purity. the pureness so that you can have um pure thoughts and and um pure emotions and do things through this this pureness and again I I do correlate pureness to some degree with with innocence so yeah I think it's at the the beginning and again there's this process of getting jaded and suppression that happens and anger that happens and then kind of like the lifting of it all and then that's kind of coming back to to that essence um if you will yeah it's well said it's The older I get, the more I realize I don't know anything. So when I start thinking of, you know, like you start getting deep into these things, like, yeah, I know this. And then you're like, wait a minute. I don't know. And this doesn't wait a minute. That doesn't make any sense. I wonder how many masters are out there that are like, I'm not a master. I don't even like that term. Don't call me a master. You know, it's it's almost a trap to be called that. Yeah, how can you be a master? I mean, like, you're never going to know. You're never going to know everything. And everything you know, you don't really know. Like, you're always going to learn more about it and more that you don't know. So I don't know. The whole term, like, master, I mean, you're working towards mastery of something. So I totally agree with that. Or mastery of, like, a skill of, you know, a sport. Or mastering yourself, you know, mastering your emotions. So there definitely is, like, I think mastery is more of, like, and action. You're working too fast or something. But yeah, I mean, we don't really know anything. We really don't. And the more you learn, the more you're like, wow, there's more I just don't know. Every time I get into a higher state of consciousness or whatever you want to call it, the more I open myself up and learn more, I'm like, wow, there's so much I don't know. Oh my God. And it's exciting too at the same time. It's fascinating. It is. yeah my advice to all the listeners out there or anybody within the sound of my voice is be weary of the person that says that they know what's going on like that person you should be that should be a red flag like I know what's happening okay I'll listen to you but be be weary of someone who's like I know exactly what it is like that sounds to me like um a road to a road to destruction right there but uh also like you have to think like you can't you can maybe know something from your perspective. Everyone has a different experience. Everybody's living their own experience, a combination of their lived experiences, their ancestral stuff, their stage, their environments, the people in their life. So you and one other person, even if you're literally living together, you're going to have totally different experiences and truths, I guess, relative truths, you would call it, but you're going to have totally different what you would call a truth in something because it's a different truth for one person versus the other person because it's a different perspective and experience based on like where they're coming from. And yeah, I think that's sometimes hard for people to see and understand. it's super hard to realize that two things can be true at the same time. Like, these are both true. Like, what do you mean they're both true? They can't both, yeah, both things are true at the same time. And I think when you get there, like, that's when some real questions start to go. And for me, like, when I realized, well, both of these things are true. Like, what does that mean if they're both true? It's like a true paradox. But I think that that's where your awareness begins to grow. I got Aria from Seattle. She says, when you stop slaying dragons, what do you do with them? Oh, well. That's a good question. Thank you, Aria. I love the concept of the dragon being the shadow. Okay. And the shadow ultimately just needs to be alchemized. So if you think of like, you know, if you ever watch Game of Thrones, right, the dragon can be destructive and, you know, fire. And it's obviously like burning everything down. But then it can also be like a very extremely loving creature that has so many like, emotions and and such a big heart and and wants to like give and and love to its its little I don't know dragon creature babies you know um yeah I think that we just see the dragon as like this this thing of destruction and and um and death and yes that's an aspect of it but it uh it always everything always has a another side to it and yeah you know it can it can also be a very beautiful creature you know that just somebody really pissed her off he's burning everything down she has to take matters into her own hands so yeah I think that the dragon um you make friends with the dragon and you learn how be your your protector and your guide and um you know even a mentor to some degree so you you befriend the dragon um you work with the dragon so now it's on your team and it's not controlling your life but it's actually now um an ally in your life That's such beautiful. It's so beautiful to put it that way. I remember when my daughter was young, she had trouble sleeping for a while. And I'm like, what's going on, love? Are you all right? And she's like, there's a monster in my closet, dad. And I'm like, what? No way. And so we went over there and we checked everything out. And she goes, well, it comes when you're gone. And I'm like, I know. Can I tell you about this monster, though? And she's like, what? Like that monster is not here to get you. That monster is there to protect you. And it hides in there. So if anybody comes in this door, that monster is your friend. He's going to attack the person that comes in. Like he's going to protect you. And if you can make friends with him and all you have to do is just start talking to him. Just start asking him his name and asking him what he does. And like you'll make friends with him and he'll be like your best friend. He's not here to get you. I promise you he's not here to get you. He's here to protect you. And it was so awesome. I get stoked when I think about it because it totally turned into a relationship. All of a sudden, it was like, yeah, you're right. He is my friend, dad. And then all of a sudden, she's talking about the conversation she has with him. And it's so cool. So, Aria, I think that you make friends, much like Jessica said, you make friends with that dragon. If you slay the dragon, it's not so much as killing him as it is, like Jessica said, alchemizing it and realizing that dragon's part of you. It's there to protect you. I love that I love that you did with your daughter though that that's the process of of shadow work truly yeah you can apply that to so many things in in life right like you can literally apply that to like everything that you're experiencing like how can you take that that you're looking at something so negative and so like scary how can you now try to have a different perspective around it and um be able to like shift it or alchemize it into something um that that feels better from look by just by looking at it from a different perspective and that's where like you know, kind of being your own parents can help because when the parent comes in and they say, oh, well, what if you looked at it this way instead of that way? And you're like, ah, okay. You need to be that for yourself. It's so true. It's so true. We got some more questions. Jessica, you okay on time? Okay. Yes. All right. Ezra from Toronto. Thank you for being here. I hope your day is going beautiful. Sending you light and blessings. Ezra says, if suffering speaks in symbols, how do we learn to listen? Suffering speaks as symbols. How do we learn to listen? Oh, I love this question. Okay. So, well, you know, I think that our... you can work with yourself because the psyche ultimately speaks to you in symbols and images, right? So if you are experiencing suffering, which many of us, all of us to some degree are, you can very much work with your psyche because your psyche always wants to communicate with you But obviously it can't do so through words. So it does so through images, through experiences like synchronicities, through dreams. Dreams are such a powerful way that your psyche is trying to communicate with you through symbols and images. So there's a lot of work that you can do. And this is the work that I do in Jungian coaching or that you can do with any Jungian analyst where it's kind of bringing some sort of like dilemma or challenge to the table as something that you want to work through. And in that experience, you can then come up with a, you know, you dig a little bit deeper into the dilemma. and then you um you allow yourself to either allow an image or symbol to come through by closing your eyes or there's different tools that I might use to put them in front of people and then ultimately your intuition will will speak it'll make you feel something or be like that one I don't know why but that one and then you can ultimately engage with that symbol um and work with that symbol to get insights from it uh and you know some of the processes I use is this kind of ego self dialogue where you're actually dialoguing With that symbol and that symbol is ultimately representative of an aspect of you part of yourself whether it's a complex or you know a protective aspect of yourself that wants to offer something and Sometimes it might come through a little challenging or harsh. Sometimes I see that and then oftentimes I it softens and there's this like really beautiful wisdom and insights that that aspect of you wants to offer. And I find when that happens, those kind of complexes or a complex that is connected to almost starts to like soften in a way. And you can do this through that ego self dialogue. You can do it through journaling. Journaling is a really great way to engage with different aspects of yourself. Also art. So expressive art. you know, drawing, drawing around the dilemma or the issue at hand and letting kind of anything come to you, whether it's like a concrete or abstract drawing, you can always find wisdom in there that you can then engage with to get, to get more insights. There's a great book called a man and his symbols. I know you do. I know you studied it. You're talking about it right now. I love it. Yes. Let me bring up Jessie. Jessie, first off, if you guys aren't familiar with Jessie Munreal, incredible speaker. She's been out on the circuit. Not only that, but she works underground, above board, helping people solve big problems. And Jessie, I'm super stoked on all the work you're doing. I hope more people within the sound of my voice go down, click on your profile and get to see and talk to you because you're doing cool stuff out there. She says, maybe you don't slay it, you tame it and harness it and use it to help you. Exactly. Exactly, Jessie. I couldn't agree more. Who do we got? Oh, we got Luca coming all the way from Prague. Shout out to Luca. Thank you for being here. She says, are myths the software of human consciousness? Are myths the software of human consciousness? yeah I'd say so and I want to I want to go back to jesse's point yeah please like uh taming and harnessing it yes and but you want to do so in a way that's not um restraining it so uh it's warning learning to um work with that aspect of you in a way that's not restrained but in a way that it can um kind of come to uh come to life uh in a way that's um now aligned and constructive and collaborative, if you will. So we want to allow those parts of us to live fully and to integrate into us. And then it will absolutely really be able to help you. So that's a really great point. So yes, can you repeat the question again for me? I will, but now I got one more question because I know my friend Jesse's out there. How, Jessica, when you think about this idea of the dragon and you think about integration or addiction, what comes to mind? Look, I can't speak for everybody, but a lot of times with addiction, it is often used to numb aspects of ourselves that are overwhelming for us to be able to deal with and handle. traumas, demotions, just life in general. Sometimes it doesn't always happen that way, right? Sometimes it just happens through a surgery or where you got prescribed something and then all of a sudden now you're hooked. But a lot of times it is used to suppress parts of yourself that are really challenging or overwhelming to engage with. You know, I speak about these complexes that when they are given energy and sometimes like they're given energy through suppression. So if it just keeps wanting to come through and you just keep suppressing and suppressing and suppressing through, like I know for me, a lot of times I would drink to suppress fear or I would drink to suppress anxiety so I could go to sleep. And I used wine a lot or just whatever I didn't want to deal with. And when you do that, ultimately that charge gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And ultimately it could be something that's maybe like a little lizard. And now all of a sudden it's this massive dragon that's trying to like recal, you know? So I think that now we have to say, oh my God, what did we create here? You know, through all this suppression and then how now can we like go and kind of give compassion to, to that dragon and understand like where it's coming from. Oftentimes it's just, it's got so much anger or, or, um, uh, just energy built up that it needs to be released. Um, so, um, kind of like this, this taming, right. Would be maybe teaming it through, like through engagement, through compassion, through just hearing it, listening to it. What does it have to say? What needs to be heard? And this is all parts of you that have been put down or suppressed that need a space to express. And as you express, you're allowing that energy to move through you. You're putting energy in motion, right? You're allowing it to move through you. And then that's kind of this process of taming it, right? And I guess if you want to like use this context, you know, maybe Jesse meant harness it, meaning like put a harness on it, now jump on it and fly together, you know, like that's a really beautiful analogy. And I can see her being that because then you're like now working with it and collaborating with it because you know, like underneath it, what the true intent was, like maybe it just needed to be loved. Maybe it was just trying to protect you. Maybe it just wants to make sure that you don't end up in situations like that before, right? So once you know what ultimately its main purpose is, there's this kind of like integration that happens that now you can live with it in a really powerful way. And now it's like your ally to really kind of like guide you through life and this like beautiful strength and power that you can tap into and use. First off, Jessie's super awesome. Everybody should check her out. She says, the Geico lizard turned into a T-Rex. No bueno. You know, it brings up this other idea. I was talking to, and for anybody out there listening, I was talking to my friend Tom from Anselmo Ibogaine. If you're looking for Ibogaine treatment, Anselmo Ibogaine and Tom are amongst the most incredible people out there. I had this long conversation with him, and in his story of evolution of that Anselmo Ibogaine, the story of transition, there was so much radical mythology in his personal life that showed the pathway from from victim into transcendent coach or transcendent provider and it just makes me think jessica so much of what we're talking about and maybe so much you do with young and like that could be such a great something that could be implemented into all of these sort of addiction centers is this idea of the mythology because So many people are there with the dragon, whether they're chasing the dragon or whether they're slaying the dragon. But how much of this mythology and Jungian coaching or seeing these symbols could be rolled into these addiction treatment centers to benefit people? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it puts the power back into themselves, right? Because, you know, sometimes I think a lot of times you kind of like feel the loss of power, externalizing it to some degree to like to a substance, right? So when you can kind of understand that this is just a natural journey, it's the journey that everyone goes on throughout different stages of their lives. And it's not just one, it's gonna happen time, it's cyclical. It's gonna happen time and time again. And you're going to have to go through this process in multiple experiences. And eventually it just becomes part of you that you can say, okay, now I understand like I'm in, let's say the belly of the whale, you know, I'm like, kind of like, I don't know how I'm getting out of this. I just got myself into here and I'm, I'm lost. I'm just in darkness and I can't see. And then kind of, you're like, well, I got to get out of here. So I'm going to step up and then you have to face it all. You have to face all the, all the darkness and all the, the, you know, fight that dragon. Um, So I think by incorporating that into whatever it might be addiction centers, um, um, schools, I think like doing a workshop at a university, uh, as well to teach, teach college students this, because they're feeling this over and over and again, and they're going to come into challenges throughout every stage of their life. So ultimately you have to just understand that like, there is a process that happens when you're faced with a challenge and. it's normal to experience these different states throughout that journey and throughout that process. And once you understand the normalcy, you start to recognize it. Because what happens is when it happens, you're so far in it that it's hard to see. Like you kind of said, like when you're getting this outsider's perspective, you're looking in and you're like, ah, okay, I see you're going to get through this. But you just have to kind of build awareness. build muscle memory almost into just know like, okay, this is a challenging time. I'm gonna be able to get through this. And I have different resources that I can go to that are not substance, that are not alcohol. For me, it was like, okay, well, here's a panic attack. Let me grab a Xanax. Or here's this overwhelming feeling of doom. Glass of wine, maybe half a bottle of wine, maybe a bottle of wine, whatever it was, depending on how scary it was for me. And I had to get other tools to know like, okay, to get through this naturally, I'm going to have to feel it. And feeling it feels really shitty and it's really, I don't want to feel it, but it's, it's the natural progression of getting through, um, getting through trauma and getting through, uh, uh, whatever mental health conditions, whatever you want to call it. Right. So I had to find different tools. Jungian was one of those tools because then I had, um, uh, kind of an arsenal of stuff to go into to say, okay, this is a shadow part of myself. It feels dark. It's scary. but I know that it's normal. And now I know that I can engage with that part to understand like what it has to offer. And that ultimately it's just a hidden part of myself that's scared that needs a little consoling or needs to know that it's okay. And maybe it's not just that, maybe it's like engaging in something like journaling or breath work or dancing, or just like going and doing something fun and normal, you know, kind of getting out of spiritual work and just doing something like very, very normal. So it's really important to know what state, know that there's like this kind of like cyclical process that has to happen throughout any stage in life. I mean, anytime you're going to go through a transition or anytime you want to do something new or start something new or, or a career hobby, a relationship, whatever it is, you're going to go through that, that cycle. So getting comfortable with the flow and the process, and then ultimately having this arsenal of tools that you can tap into when you're at different stages, I think is really incredibly important. And, you know, I, um, Young helped to create the Twelve Steps program. His work was really influential with developing Twelve Steps and ultimately the concept was you need to replace spirit with spirit. So you have to give people or people need different tools that they can tap into, whether it's a creative faculty, a spiritual practice, whatever it might be that they can tap into because once you remove the spirit of whatever you're addicted to, there's a void and that void feels very scary. So you have to have something that you can kind of fill up now in that space. I've never heard that term replace spirit with spirit, but it makes so much sense. And there is that void. And if you have the void, the first thing that's going to rush in is that old spirit. That's familiar. It feels good. It feels normal. And so re-familiarizing yourself with a different spirit seems like the way to go. It makes me think that all schools should be teaching the Homeric verses. I think of Odysseus leaving the island of the lotus eaters or escaping from the Cyclops. There's so much wisdom in all of those old mythologies that help guide us to different parts of ourselves. Luca, I'm sorry. Yeah, go ahead. Question that the woman asked me. Luca. Luca's patiently waiting for us. Luca, thank you so much. I'm super stoked you're here. Coming all the way from Prague. She says, are myths the software of human consciousness? I think that myths are the connective points. to human consciousness. Myths explain human consciousness in a way, and they can guide human consciousness, because myths are ultimately ways to explain things that we're experiencing. It's kind of like ways to explain the hero's journey, if you will, right? So it can bring us to, like, myths can bring us to a new state of consciousness because it gives us that perspective from the mountain. Right. Um, I know, I know someone that teaches, um, through, through myth, uh, because when you can hear it from, uh, through a myth, you can identify with it. You're identifying that those, um, aspects of the journey with parts of yourself. And because you can see it from a different perspective, somebody, and ultimately because you can see it from, um, across like a storyline, you can ultimately come up with solutions. you know, from hearing the myth of somebody else's experience, you can come up with solutions that then you could apply for for yourself that maybe if you just looked at your own experience, you wouldn't be able to do because you're looking at it from here versus like looking at it from here. So, yeah, I mean, I guess you could say that it could be the software of consciousness. Yeah, because it's it's ultimately kind of like ingraining a new way of perception. And by doing so, it's taking you out of your own kind of like bubble and bringing you forward in a way that you can kind of connect to it to bring yourself forward a little bit by seeing it from a different perspective or a different lens. Yeah, I love that. It's an interesting way to say that, Luca, like the software of consciousness. For me, it's almost like I almost think of it as like the default mode network because we were preloaded on some level with these myths and they get in really fast. So on that aspect, it's like software. And then I guess maybe later in life, hopefully those myths that you've been running on give way to your own personal myth. And then you can sort of customize it. Like maybe you want a little Odysseus over here or maybe you want a little bit of some Joseph Campbell on this side over here. You're going to mix and match those myths to sort of create your own myth. So you're same way a metaphor remixes meaning so too can you remix those mythologies in your own personal myth to create something original but that's a great question I've never thought about it from that aspect before thank you energizing different parts of you I think it's also like that that concept of remembering right when you hear them you you something will wake up and you like again like if the psyche is trying to look for symbols and images if you're hearing a myth there's a part of you that can turn on or wake and you'll just feel something or like have like some sort of knowing during that, during the experience of hearing the myth. And by doing so, it's just connecting it to a part of you that already lives inside of you. So it's, it's kind of like, again, that's kind of another way maybe you could think of it as software that it's like activating or energizing something that's already inside of you that you can use as a tool to kind of like push you forward into, you know, this kind of like, um varying states of consciousness yeah I love it what do we got over here we got yara yara says if the hero's journey was the myth of separation what is the myth of reunification Well, I think the third part of the hero's journey could be that unification part, right? Because if you're kind of like separating, right? And then there's this part of like, you have to kind of now bring your learnings back into the community, back to yourself. You're kind of like bringing it home. So I think there's like the experience of uniting happens at the end of the journey and that unification and that individuation now, like it's, you've had that transformation and you want to share that wisdom and those insights and those learnings with other people. It's kind of like, now you've got that as part of your medicine that you can offer. Um, so you've, you've united, um, aspects of yourself through that process of like, uh, like the Jungian process of individuation throughout that hero's journey, right? So you've united the fragmented parts of yourself. So there's this unification that happens at the end for you to become like this more whole authentic version of yourself. And then I think when you do that, that's what we talked about earlier, where you now can now create and give back. And that's like a greater unification that you can have within your within your community. Yeah, maybe you have an idea around another another myth, though, for for unification. I think becoming the child. I think that the camel to the lion to the child is sort of that same sort of reunification. It's like the full circle. Like you've taken on all the burdens, you've become the rebel, and then you've realized, you've reunified with the whole. Like, okay, that was all necessary, but now it's my turn to give back and share my experience and share all the way through. But I think they kind of dovetail together. on on some aspect of of reunification and I think it also speaks to coming back to the idea that you're part of something bigger than you can understand like you're part of this whole thing you see it everywhere around you on some level it's I don't think I'm there yet otherwise I would have the exact answer I wish I could I wish I could tell them exactly but I I think I'm still sort of moving into past the rebellion and beginning to understand what it truly means to give back to the whole. Like, I'm really trying to be part of that. Like, I want to give back all the lessons that I've learned and share with people, even if it seems insignificant. Like I want to give back so people can learn and come from that aspect. And we got one more over here. You're doing that by your podcast too. It's like you're doing, you're doing really beautiful work by people, bringing people together to share their stories. But then also, you know, you always have such beautiful gifts that you're able to offer and insights and wisdom that you're able to offer throughout. And even like just your, your, your questions, um, are are so powerful that they are a gift because like they just get people to think and share in ways that I don't think that they would have otherwise so you definitely are you definitely are doing your work so I will I will let you know that at least from my perspective I very much see that you have a gift that you are offering to the world yeah thank you jessica thanks to everybody hanging out like I what I've learned and like this I've been podcasting for almost six years now and what I've learned is that There aren't really any answers, but there are better questions. And so for me, like it's just been this evolution of questions like, oh, that's pretty good. But wait, what about this? You know, and so maybe that's just the process of learning. But that's my advice to everybody out there. Don't look for the answers. Just look for better questions. And then that will help guide you to the next set of questions. And that seems to me that's been a path that I've been on. It's really helped me. get to see myself and my family and the people I care about and getting to have cool conversations with not only people like jessica but people in the audience like luca or orion or nina I'm super stoked on you guys thank you for being here and hanging out with us and if you can't find the answer and the solution change the question That's a great one. Yeah. Yes. Sometimes it is just reframing that question to get something back. Right. Like just changing one or two words in that question, like a how question versus those value driven questions. Like why? Why does that happen like that? Like sometimes for me, those questions are pretty powerful. Mm hmm. Orion, Orion, shout out to LA. You guys doing okay down there? It looks like some chaos, so thank you for hanging out with us. He says, what's the difference between self-creation and spiritual ego? Self-creation and spiritual ego, they are definitely two different things. Now, so spiritual ego can be something that happens when I think people get caught up in this world and maybe they misuse some of the insights, wisdom, maybe like any power that they end up tapping into. And maybe get caught up in it, right? In spiritual world, a little too caught up in it. But at the same time, ego is not always a negative thing. Ultimately, ego is, when it's healthy, ego is really there to drive our soul's purpose. So you want your ego to be living out your spiritual path or your higher self, your spirit, right? So it depends, I think, how you look at So if you're looking at in the wine context, obviously something some some an instance where somebody is getting too caught up in in their their capacity, their ability, their their what their. And it's in my head, but I can't find the right words on how to spit this out now. But hopefully you know what I mean. Who's basically getting caught up in it. But then if you look at ego used in a healthy way to to lead you down your soul's purpose or on your soul's path. then ego is used in a really beautiful way. Now it becomes your soul's creation or your spirit's creation. So it is this aspect of connecting to the deepest parts of yourself, the most authentic parts of yourself, and then aligning ego with your higher self. So now ego is what's going to draw you forward to be able to further create yourself and now kind of give those aspects of yourself to the world. So ego is super important as part of the soul's creation and as part of now bringing yourself forth into the world in a different way. I think it's well said. Polar Knights coming all the way over here from Norway. What's up, Polar Knights? Thank you for hanging out with us. Send us some questions in the chat there, Polar Knights. I would love to know what's on your mind. Super thankful for being here. Let me jump over to Nina. Nina says, when does healing become an excuse not to create? Oh, God. Healing... Oh man, I know this one very, very deeply. So yeah, you can get so caught up in healing. Like where, again, it's this concept of like never being good enough. Cause you're always, you know, that's why I, earlier I wanted to reframe around the word fix because if you're constantly fixing yourself, it's going back to that concept of you're not good enough. Right. And if you think about it, like. every time you're healing and you're transforming yourself, you're still not feeling like you're there, right? Because you need to heal more. There's still more parts of you that have wounds or there's still more parts of you that maybe you're ashamed of or you wish that you would show up differently. So Um, if you, you can kind of get stuck in this, this vortex of, of healing. And that's where, um, I think that can pull you into the shadows and that can suck you into like this kind of dark underworld of the unconscious. Uh, and, and that's why it's so important to find these, um, the creation right these tools of creation um or uh and when I say creation creation can be going and dancing because then you're just um kind of expressing in that moment um different aspects of yourself through dance so uh creation could be like I said I always go back to this because there's so many different acts of creation um that that we can do um that people might not even realize that it's like a really beautiful medicine or tool that they can they can tap into um So I think that if you get so, let's just say at one point I think I was like, what terms did I use? It was like hypervigilance, healing hypervigilance. Everything had to be healed, you know? And it was just, it was so much and it was so exhausting. And I was taking the same stuff I would do in my prior life of just like too much always being on in like my corporate world of just like more, more, more, more, more. And I was now applying it to kind of healing myself. And it was exhausting and it was too much. And what I realized is I need to take breaks and like do some work and then just be, and just go play and then just be normal, do anything, you know, not work. And, and that's really important into like, also as you're doing this work of healing to know, like you're not broken, right. You're not broken. You don't have to necessarily be healed. Ultimately, it's this process of just kind of like remembering who you are underneath it all and just coming back to that part of you. So I think it's really important to sometimes reframe the word of healing yourself to just remembering and integrating different aspects of yourself. Yeah, it's really well said. Polar Knights over here, coming all the way from the north of Norway, he says, marriage is a good teacher, silence is golden. When we think about, Polar, that's a beautiful way to say it. I love it. Jessica, we talk a lot about the different mythologies and the Jungian archetypes and psychedelics, but I'm wondering if you could tie those together with relationships and what it's like to have a partner. Yeah, I mean, relationships are absolutely one of your greatest teachers. And marriage, they say, is the ultimate yoga, right? It's true. I mean, relationships are so challenging. No matter how much you love the person, They can be so challenging because they're ultimately mirrors, right? If you look at yourself as kind of like an antenna, you are going to attract someone or draw someone in who is going to be there to show you where you need to continue to do work. Show you aspects of yourself that you've tucked away. Show you aspects of yourself or wounds that you haven't fully worked on or you thought you worked on, but now there's deeper wounds that are still there that need to be healed. Show you parts of yourself that you have maybe suppressed or said, oh, no, that's not me. You are ultimately attracting someone. Sometimes we'll say it's like your opposite. And that may be why it's feeling like your opposite, because there are different aspects that you have inside of you that either need to be looked at, addressed, healed or turned on. And that can be such a challenging awakening to just have light on all of those different parts of yourself. And that's why we're often so triggered in relationships, because it just brings up all of the inner child stuff. all of the stuff that you haven't wanted to address. And, you know, you can feel like totally, totally great outside of a relationship and be like, I did all this work. I'm, you know, I've done all this healing, feeling great. I overcame those things. And all of a sudden you get in a relationship. It's like, holy shit, I thought I fixed that one. I thought I worked on that one. But all of a sudden now it comes back up. But it's something that was deeper in there that now needs to be worked on. So it's really important to have a partner that is also aware of that and that you can communicate with openly and collaborate with, because ultimately that's what it should be. It should be a partnership to collaborate and talk through openly about things that are coming up. And not to use them as a tool to say like, oh, well, don't do this so I don't feel that. But to say, hey, this is bringing this up for me. I want to let you know this is bringing up for me. I need to work through this. In the meantime, this is something that could be supportive for me to work through it. And here are some things that might be beneficial throughout this experience. And ultimately, it's just kind of like joining in partnership. And I just think that relationships can be tremendously healing. But oftentimes they're so challenging that it's hard to get through some of these aspects of ourselves, especially if the both parties aren't aware that this is like a normal part of the process. It can be really challenging. Yeah. I once heard a quote that said the question was like in the form of like a question. And the question was, how do you know when you found the person that you should be with forever? And the answer is they'll try to kill you. How do you know you found the perfect person? They'll try to kill you. But it brings me up to that idea of opposites. Like, we are so attracted to that. And maybe it's because we see in the other person a whole different perspective or we see what makes us whole. Like, when you find that opposite, it's truly the yin and the yang. Like, oh, my God, I never thought about that. and that sort of beauty and that sort of attraction at some point it begins to it be on I think it moves like that whole sort of yin and yang moves in a circular pattern but it gets times where it's so contentious like that is exactly wrong like that's where you start to see like the different relationships like but it is that coming together that makes that relationship so much better because ultimately you're finding a whole part of yourself you're getting to see yourself your biggest strengths your biggest weaknesses and challenge to grow and become one together because that other person needs you just as much as you need them and sometimes it is those polar opposites that really make you whole yeah and a lot of times it's like the complex that is showing up right like you could be totally fine and you know all of a sudden they say something and all of a sudden it's like you black out and some somebody else comes forward and it's like you know it's just like what just happened you know it's like these complexes that um that come through and and they're speaking from past experiences yeah what happened oftentimes was valid for something some sort of exchange yeah it may not have been um it may not have required such a strong intense emotion and oftentimes when that emotion is so intense and so strong and so overpowering that's where you know it's not something within just this experience that an exchange that you're having right now it's something um deeper in you that is now coming forth and coming up and That's why it's so important for people to work together and just to be honest about like, Hey, I'm getting triggered right now. And for that other person to not get defensive because often happens, they get defensive because they didn't intend to make you feel that way. They didn't intend to hurt you. And, and that's why it's like, you know, you have to just really appreciate and honor everyone's unique experience and, and feel like, I'm sorry that I caused that experience so that whatever happened led you to have that experience. It wasn't my intent. Like something as simple as that can soften that ego or that complex so that now you can work together as like, you know, not out of that state of trigger or complex and work through it. But it's really challenging, obviously, when that happens. takes over. So it can be important sometimes to just step away. So you're not acting out of that place and then say, OK, why did that come up? Obviously, something happened right here that I'm not happy with. But is it connected to something deeper? Is this more here? They're more here that maybe I need to go explore. And why did that specific thing trigger me so much? And it's never to like invalidate the person's reason for being triggered, because oftentimes like there's a very valid reason for that, that triggering or for that person to like not like what happened in the moment, but oftentimes it's so strong, it's connected to something else. It's such higher level functioning too, because it's so easy to get trapped in those emotions. And I know from experience, in my relationships, how, how often is the conversation you're having with your partner, the conversation you were having with you, are you arguing with your wife or your mom? Are you arguing with your husband or you're arguing with your dad? You know what I mean? Like, so you have to step back and be like, Whoa, what am I doing? That's not what they meant. That's not what they said, but that's so hard to do unless you're really like in the moment and understanding that, like, and you're conscious of your word choice and you're conscious of your intentions. Like, okay, I'm not even arguing about this bill over here. I'm arguing about something that happened when I was twelve. I should just step back and recenter myself and know that this person is trying to help me on some level. They're bringing something up. It's interesting to think about that aspect of it. Yeah. And sometimes it is just like a combination of just like other things that are happening in the relationship. Sometimes there truly is this relationship that the connection bids are getting missed or the things that you're asking for just continue to go unheard or you're not feeling seen, whatever it might be. So there truly are aspects of the relationship that are causing the issues and the arguments. So that is one aspect of it. And then the other aspect of it is that there's something deeper here that needs to be addressed. And both are true. We're getting some huge props over here from Polar Knights. Polar Knights says, this is a huge shock for me to see and listen to two normal Americans. I assume this is how it feels to like to win the lottery. See, we're kind of awesome over here. Some of us, at least Polar Knight, some of us are kind of awesome. And we're super stoked that you're here. I would love to hear your thoughts on relationships. Put us in the chat over there and let us know. Here's one, though, Jessica. So we've spoken about the relationships and how critical it is in order to take that argument and turn it into, like, alchemize it into something beneficial for both people. But how do you separate, like, the argument from a toxic relationship? Are there signs that you can look for and know? What do you think? I lost your... Oh, I lost you right there. She's coming back in just one second though, ladies and gentlemen. okay are you back I'm back okay um that's really important too because sometimes people can like you can get in this this this um conceptual thought that um oh it's just my my trauma it's just my trigger like I'm getting triggered um by my trauma or um you know it's it's my complexes that are the issue here and I'm like really I'm really glad that you brought awareness to it because it's super important because people might stay in yeah too long because they're thinking that perhaps it's their fault because of the wounds that they're carrying. And especially if people are in a relationship with someone who's a bit narcissistic, whether they realize it or not, it's a very easy story to frame that it's always the individual that they're just bringing something up. It's another issue that they're trying to solve or trying to bring to the table. And here we go again, like that type of mentality. And ultimately, I think there's a lot of work that, and again, you could be drawing that person to you, like literally for a very specific reason, because that could require, that requires you ultimately to go in and find your inner truth and say, okay, like I understand that, you know, I have triggers, I have wounds, I'm coming into this with past experiences and baggage as we all do. But the reality of it is like, you have to have a certain, barometer of how you want to be treated and what you expect. And I guess if you're practicing Buddhism, you're not supposed to have expectations. But when you're in a relationship, you need some expectations and some standards here. So you want to have this barometer of how do I expect to be treated? How do I want to be treated? And how will I be treated in a relationship? And you know, that has to be a core foundation that you're getting treated right. And yes, of course, you're going to have challenges and experiences and maybe you're going to like react in certain ways. The other person is going to react in certain ways. But if it's to the point where it's not meeting like certain standards or it's not, let's say, getting better, it's not working towards resolution and some of these things aren't starting to soften or not happen as often, then you really have to look at it and say like, all right, are we Is this really workable here? Or for whatever reason, maybe we're not doing the work. Maybe it's just maybe the compatibility is off just because there's no movement. So I do think that you have to have movement and you are going to move forward and you are going to step back. You are going to it's a bit of a like a Dahlia where you're kind of expanding and contracting like that absolutely happens in relationships. But are you being heard? And are you starting to see those changes? And are both people doing the work so that they can show up differently the next time? Are the arguments less frequent or less intense or not as long? So you have to look, I think, at the patterns. If it's the same pattern and there's no change in the pattern, then perhaps it is a toxic relationship and something that you need to get out of. And you also have to say, like, you know, is this environment a place that I can heal these triggers and these wounds? Because if the other person isn't willing to partner with you in the process and in that journey, it might be maybe the lesson in learning is about choosing yourself. and say, okay, well, I'm not in an environment that I can be, these parts of me can be nurtured and can be held and can be loved. And in fact, maybe it's more traumatizing to stay in the relationship because of how the person is handling the responses. So there has to be this collaboration and nurturing that you have to do with each other and each other's inner child. And if that's not there, then you have to really look at it and say, like, is this an environment that these parts of me can feel safe to heal or do have maybe the support to heal? Because I do think that we, I don't think that you get into relationships and you're supposed to do all the healing independently on your own. I think that'll actually divide you in a way. I think it is actually supposed to connect you and bring you closer together through that vulnerability. Yeah, yeah. What do you think is the role of silence in relationships? I know that sometimes it's used to wound, but I think it can also be a profound tool for healing in relationships. What's your take on that? yeah and silence can be really useful in those those really challenging times too when you want to lash out or you want to say something or you know that whatever you say whether you intend to or not is going to come with a certain um energetic tone that is not going to be felt in the way that you maybe would like it to then silence is super important in those moments that's where you can just have silence and just say okay I really want to say this there's this ball that's about to like word vomit out but I'm just going to like hold on to it for a moment and and maybe just like explore where I'm at and what I need at this time um and explore maybe is there somewhere else that this is coming from and sometimes just uh and oftentimes like you can feel like you're getting like one especially if you've had bad relationships in the past you feel like you need to protect yourself at all times right so you want to kind of like stick up for yourself or stand up for yourself But sometimes in that moment, silence can be so powerful. And, you know, you can kind of wait until there's less of like the energetic charges between you two and then come back and have a conversation because you'll have some time to really think through it. And just like silence in general, I think is important to just like be with the other person in their presence, you know, even as an argument. Yeah, the role of silence, like I'm reminded of that saying that says the silence is deafening. And sometimes, like, if you've been in a relationship long enough, you know exactly what I mean. When, like, someone's not talking to you and you're like, oh, my God, what are they thinking? Or what are they supposed to say? What am I thinking? But the role of silence in relationships is such an effective tool to not only become the best relationship, but also to become the best version of yourself and understand what it means to be part of something bigger than you. Like, silence is key in so many aspects of it. Well, and also just silence when you're alone, too, just so you can, like, separate yourself. It's also like, you know, when we get in relationships, this is something Young said, like, you're going to come together, right? And there's this, like, really beautiful aspect of coming together, and you feel so incredible. And then all of a sudden, like, there's kind of this, like, oh, wow, who am I anymore? I've lost myself. And you then need to, like, start to separate. And it's a challenging time in the relationships. because it's from this like honeymoon stage to all of a sudden like, wow, I've lost myself. And so it's kind of now this like separation that has to happen so that you can kind of be two individuals walking together. And I think silence is a really important tool during that time. So you can kind of step away, see who you are without that person, feel who you are without that person, without that person's energy, especially if you're a highly sensitive person, You're just always engulfed in their energy. So to be able to step out, go to the woods, go for a walk and see who you are alone and just remember that. So when you're coming in, you're coming in as yourself, not, you know, this person that's kind of like somehow like kind of like chameleoned into each other, because that definitely does happen. Yeah, I can totally see it. I've seen it in my own life. What about silence as a symbol? Is there a, what would Jung say, or maybe in your personal experience, is there a symbol for silence? Let me close my eyes and see what comes. Yeah, let's think about it. I just, you know, I'm seeing a cloud. That's what I'm seeing. Like, kind of like a, kind of like a very, like, diamond-ish cloud or crystal-ish cloud, I guess, if you will. Yeah, cloud, I guess, because you allow things to pass through silence. You know, if you think about sitting in meditation, you're in silence. Like, if you look at thoughts as clouds, they just kind of, like, go through, and there's just this, you know, transparent yet kind of fullness of clouds, too. And it just kind of brings this softness to you and almost this kind of like out of reach softness. It brings it down to you. So I would think, I don't know, clouds are coming to my mind right now, but also silence is really important when I do work with people. We're going through these journeys and we're kind of going through this kind of like um spiral if you will into their unconscious it's really important when there is silence to just allow because that is a space where we're we're allowing intuition or psyche to offer something and maybe if it's not a symbol or a word that's going to come through maybe it's a feeling so in that silence there's there's more of us that is able to come through perhaps parts of us that have been hiding or haven't been as um comfortable coming through that silence is super important it's a really important time um I think just in general even in conversations at work um pausing and and for that silence um to give people space um and yourself space for for what um it lays deeper maybe it's been a bit shy Yeah, that's really well said. When you bring up the cloud idea, I think of, I forgot this word, but it's like pareidolia or something like that, when you look at clouds and then you make images out of them, like you imagine when you lay down. I think it's called pareidolia. But so much of that comes in silence. It's that ruminating in the quiet moments that allow you to really unpack what was said or what you said or what happened in between the dialogue. So yeah, I love the idea of the cloud. being there and it is interesting like they say absence makes the heart grow fonder but it's the silence of the other person that really makes you think truly about them and what they're thinking and what they're trying to get through on some level so I would agree that the silence is such an important part of it over there it's it's really um It's amazing to me. Jessica, I love talking to you. This has been such an awesome conversation from the camel to the lion to the child to relationships and silence. I love what you're doing and I love the way you're able to break it down in a way that people can understand. And shout out to Jesse and Polar Knights and Nina and Orion, everybody that hung out with us in the chat today. I'm so grateful for all of you. The things we were talking about, they speak to you. Reach out in the chat. I'm going to have all Jessica's links down there. But reach out to her and ask her some questions yourself. And as I'm landing the plane over here, I want to turn it back to you, Jessica. Where can people find you? What do you have coming up? What are you excited about? Yeah, thank you. And yes, wonderful conversation. Exciting as always. Amazing questions from you and the audience. Thank you. Thank you. Super grateful. Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn at Jessica Tracy and then also on Instagram underscore Jessica Tracy underscore. So please, if you'd be interested, you can connect with me on both and reach out with any questions that you may have. My website is jessicatheyungian.coach if you're interested in more of the Jungian work. And then if you're interested more in the psychedelics from the business perspective, the Sage Collective is my other company, so thesagecollective.co. Yeah, and I have some shadow work workshops coming up. I'm always... trying to bring that work into other places and doing some at some yoga studios, a university, which is super exciting, some corporations. So if you ever have any interest in incorporating any of that aspect in a group setting, would love to do any of that. And yeah, I have a retreat that I'm planning with my partner at the looking like probably over New Year. So more to come there. And that's all that's top of mind right now. But yeah, if you follow me, I'll be sharing and posting more stuff. Yeah. And if you're out there, if you're one of the guests that are listening, Polar Knights, reach out to me in the email and I'll send you some free books that you will absolutely love. That goes for you too, Nina and Luca, everybody else. Reach out to me. I got some books I'll send you. I want to send a shout out to Anselmo Ibogaine Center. My friend Tom over there is doing incredible work. He's incredibly talented at what he does. My friend Jacob at Two Sixteen. If you guys are interested in death and psychedelics, there's a really big event coming up. Check out the links in the show notes. And Jessica, hang on briefly, but to everybody else, I hope you have a beautiful day. Thanks for hanging out with us. That's all we got. Aloha.