Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back. I got an incredible show for you today. The future of commerce, the world we live in belongs to those who embrace creativity, and we have one of those leaders with us today. I want to welcome everyone to today's show and prepare to dive deep into the into the world of commerce where growth isn't driven by sales pitches, but the product itself. My guest today is none other than Wes Bush, a thought leader who's not just riding the wave of product-led growth, he's been shaping it. With over eight years of hands-on experience working with more than four hundred, hundred, hundred SaaS companies, Wes has helped unlock over one billion, billion, billion in self-serve revenue by embracing the power of PLG. Wes believes in a world where companies let their products speak for themselves, where buyers can try before they buy. And trust is built organically, not through forceful selling. In fact, ninety seven percent of buyers now prefer this approach. But Wes is the first to admit while PLG may sound simple, it's far from easy. The failure rate for product led growth companies remains high. And that's exactly why Wes is on a mission to change the game. He's the author of the bestselling book, Product-Led Growth, how to build a product that sells itself and has identified the nine essential elements that separate PLG success stories from the rest. Whether you're curious if PLG is the right approach for your business or you're ready to scale up with a proven roadmap, Wes is here to offer unparalleled insights. Wes, thank you so much for being here today. How are you? I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, I'm excited to have you. Real briefly, before we got started, we were just talking about commerce and the shape of it and the world we live in today. Maybe I should just open it up to you a little bit. How did you get here, man? Was it frustration? Was it excitement? How did you get here, man? Yeah. So it started about like nine years ago. I was working at like BDB software businesses. They're all venture backed and they were all doing the same sales led playbook. And I was in digital marketing, demand generation, and I was just in charge of getting leads for their sales team. And so how I was doing that, I was in charge of all forms of advertising, and basically getting people to download these white papers and guides and we've got their lead contact info and then I'd send it over to the sales team and I'd always just ask the sales team like you know what like how are those leads uh am I doing my job right and they're always like yeah they didn't really want to talk to us and I kept hearing this again and again regardless of like the source of the the ads and how I got them and all that stuff. So I was like, there's something here. This feels like something people just don't want. Yet, that's what all these sales-led companies were doing. That's why they raised all this money. And then when I was at this company called Vidyard, we eventually launched this product called Muted, which was like a simple Chrome extension that was completely free. And so it made it really easy to create a video, send it to somebody, and like I could see, oh yeah, you watched like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, And that thing just took off like crazy. So there was like a hundred thousand users first year. And then since then it's been used by millions and millions of people. And so that was my kind of like PLG to Jesus moment, right? There's this old way, which is really like pushing a rock up a hill. And then there's this new way, which is really embracing what do buyers want today? They want to try before they buy, they want something free. And it's always kind of been like that, but it's been hard to actually do that in at least the software space and now other industries too. So that's just really how I got here. It's coming from that perspective, like this works really well. And then I related it back to how do I buy? And it was very much like that experience. I was like, I like free stuff. Yes, I'm guilty, it's charged, but I'd like to try it and see if I like it first. Yeah, well, I love it. It's a, it's a success story that sort of helps everybody and everybody gets to be part of it. Like somehow you get to sample the product. Hey, do I like this thing? It's like you get to test drive it a little bit and figure out, you know, what is this thing? And if I like it and which leads me to my first question about the philosophy of product led growth, like you have revolutionized the idea of product led growth, but in an era where people increasingly crave authenticity and control over their purchases, do you think that PLG taps into a deeper human need for autonomy and trust? Oh, yeah. I think like when you think about trust, like I was actually just talking to a pastor that I swim with in the same like master swim group. And he's like, Wes, like, what do you do? I was like, I did this, you know, weird software thing. People figure out what you give away for free. And we were just relating to his one experience. He's like, yeah, I remember talking to the salesperson. They wanted to get my church set up on this whole thing. And he's like, you know what? It was so expensive. It didn't do half the things they promised. And I was like, this is why product-led growth is here. Because... You don't have to even know what that word is. You just have to get burned at least once from a sales that experience. And then you're like, man, trust is hard. How do I build trust? How do I create it? And it's like, you know, there's the old way if you could tell people, hey, this is what, you know, a product does and, you know, buy. And that's a hard thing. That's asking the buyer to take a risk on your word versus, hey, just see for yourself. I got nothing to hide. And if you like it, then, I mean, you can sign up for yourself, too. It's really inexpensive most times for a product led company to get started. So it just feels a lot more natural. And you build trust by just showcasing value. Yeah, it's really well said. Do you think that what you're seeing with this particular model is sort of creating or reshaping the relationship between business and customers? Oh, totally. And I think why it has to happen this way and why everything's going down this product-led path is because there used to be a time in some industries, especially in the software space, where it was like, you know what, there's not a lot of options. It's very expensive to create software and all these things. Now you're actually looking like, especially like with AI tools, AI agents, it's like, man, it's never been easier. Like I was just talking to somebody, he's like, I could turn your book into software in a couple of days. I was like, that's amazing. And so it's just like the possibilities are endless. It's no longer like a competitive advantage or moat to build software. software or to create products. But what is really important when you're in a sea of competitors and you're all commoditized is you have to really, who has leverage in that buying scenario is the customer. And so what does the customer want in the sea of all these potential options that they could choose? They want the best customer experience. They want to trust this option. They want the best price. They want all these things. They want the easiest to use product. And so when you're in a buyer's world, you have to kind of realign your business to well, what do they want? Because what we're creating here is, you know, it could be easily replicated in most cases. Yeah, it's well said. I think it speaks to this incredible explosion we're kind of seeing in the creator economy. And with more people becoming entrepreneurs or solopreneurs through platforms and digital tools, how do you see SaaS playing a pivotal role in enabling creators to not only grow but also revolutionize their industries? Yeah, I always go back to it's making things easier, more accessible. Like I was trying to just like decipher, like what are like the core values, like a product that company and like if we were to generalize all product that companies, and it really does come down to like, we make things more accessible, simple, cheaper. And so it's just lowering the barrier. So whenever I look at like, hopefully the next decade, whether it's creators or it's any other kind of industry. It's like, I hope that like ten Xs because it's like, it's so much more accessible. There's way less barriers. When I think about the tools that existed when even I started my journey eight years ago, it's way better. Things have just gotten so much better. Like, man, I didn't have to do all that clunky development stuff and all that. That's just one tool now. You're like, and it's like twenty bucks a month. You're like, wow, that's awesome. Yeah, that is awesome. It seems to me like there's so much room for disruption on some level. If it is this sort of ground-up swell of technology that lowers the bar for entry and really rewards creativity, that could be threatening to a lot of the big boys out there on some level. Are you noticing that? I think so. Like when it comes to the sales of companies where they're like, you know what, they're eating the bottom of our market. Like what happens when they start realizing, you know, the deals could get bigger if they move up and they're in a weaker position to do that. So, yeah, we also get a lot of inbound from companies who are like, we're sales led, but we need to do this. But the tricky thing is, it's not just like a, you know, slap on a free trial and whoopee, we're product led. Actually, like the DNA of the company is different. completely different. Like the way you solve problems is different. And so that's actually the harder part for those companies to kind of make that transition because it's actually, I realized, you know, I don't know if anybody's told you this, but like, you know, when you've been in your business long enough, you realize like the business within your business. So like in order to sell products for us as, you know, consultants and implementers, it's like really the business within our business is change management. And then In order to grow our business, it's really we're a training development company for product-led implementers. It's like there's so many fun things there to dive into. But yes, that's a tangent. No, I love it. I think on some level, the business within your business speaks to the profound change that's happening in our society. You see the DNA of our society changing, and it kind of goes hand in hand with these new type of SaaS platforms. Can SaaS be applied to almost anything, or are there some things that maybe it's not going to work for? I think SaaS can be applied to most things. I think Mark Horowitz, or no, Ben Horowitz, has the quote, software is eating the world. And it's very true. There's a lot of things that could be created into software. But then there's also, well, is product-led growth just specific to SaaS? And I would say no. There's so many other industries that have actually already had this kind of motion, more or less. without calling it this fancy word, product-led growth. You think of cologne, perfume, all those things. It's like you go to the airports, and since I hang out at airports a lot, since I travel a bunch, it's like, there it is. There's an awesome free experience. And then you try it on, and you're like, I'm sneezing a lot. That was not a good one. So, yes. Can we do a thought experiment? I want to just pick your brain on this thing here. Yeah. How one of the like, I love psychedelics and I love the way in which I love how they can help people with PTSD or they can help people become better. And they've helped me in my life. But one of the drawbacks, not only with psychedelics, but in the medical field is like this idea of clinical trials. Do you think the world of SAS could be applied to clinical trials? And if so, how? Yeah, I guess I'm not too sure, like, the specifics. So when you say, like, clinical trials to SAS, what do you mean by that? And maybe that'll help my answer. Well, so I'm just curious. Like, there seems like there's so much red tape caught up in, like, in the clinical trials. And it seems to me the person is the product there. You know, is there a way to, like, democratize that or, you know, to maybe open it up so there's not so much bureaucracy? And it seems like SAS cuts through a lot of bureaucracy on some level. Yeah, I mean, I think a free trial is a good example of a clinical trial. You are the test subject, and so you get to try it out on your own. And so I think that's totally viable, and that's where it's headed, because people want to actually see it for themselves. Right. I guess we kind of, when I think about disruption, like it seems like so much opportunity is out there. Do you see that, do you see a generational divide between like the legacy giants and the business within the business of these Fortune five hundred companies and some of the new and upcoming more sort of robust, you know, solopreneurs or smaller companies? Oh, yeah. And right now what's happening is the small, medium-sized business space is actually exploding because there's so many more companies that are coming up and being like, hey, it's easier to get started. That's not to say they're like, maybe if we look at the average size of the small, medium-sized business, it's going down, but the quantity is up. And so how are you going to serve all those people? A lot of the companies, especially in the SaaS space, have already focused on the enterprise needs. So they're well tuned to like, who are the Fortune five hundred? Yes, we'll solve those complex advanced needs that those people have. But then you're left with this like millions and millions and millions of small, medium sized businesses at the very bottom end. And those people are like, yeah, I would never be able to afford that like hundred thousand per month kind of contracts. But I still have a similar need. Like I still need to see who's using my website. I still need to see like where they're getting stuck. So it's becoming like I would say the standardization of software is here. And so in order to serve this bigger market, Um, that's why like product lead and standardization is, is coming really well, kind of in tandem where it's like, okay, we just have to say, okay, we did this point solution and this is all we do. And so that divide between the enterprise that's doing like, uh, you know, a hundred very complex advanced needs, uh, is really getting challenged by in the small end. Like there's one single point solution that's doing like one of these really, really well. And they're like, we can't compete with them. They're way more efficient. And so it really comes down to, as you're thinking about like, which path do you want to take to like, what kind of challenges do you thrive at solving? Like, is it the advanced complex ones or is it, you know, making things simple and solving for simplicity? And like that last one is definitely more product led than the go up market, solve the advanced enterprise problems. Yeah, just the way that rolls off your tongue, solving for simplicity. That's poetry, man. And it does seem like so much of the old way was led by creating this idea of profit, profit, profit. When you have... you know, when you have the SaaS, it seems like you're giving away so much. Like, how do you decide how much am I going to give away versus what am I going to charge for? Like, that seems to be an interesting point right there. Oh, yeah. And it's contested. And I would know because a lot of people like search for like free trial or like freemium model on our website. It's like a really popular blog post. But it's actually asking the wrong question, which is like, it doesn't matter what is the model, like whether it's a reverse trial, free trial, freemium model, Uh, there's like, you know, four or five others, but yeah, that part doesn't matter how you decide what to give away for free though. I can go through a fun little activity. So you have to start with like, who is your ideal user? So we'd pick like Canva as an example, uh, Canva. is like okay it's somebody who let's say wants to design social media graphics because it's like a reoccurring thing they're going to do it they don't need like fully built out photoshop for that but they want to just do that really well that's actually true they did focus on social media folks for a while so that's their ideal user and success like what does that look like for your product um that end game for them could be like I just want to design anything anytime easily So that's like end success. Then we get really nerdy here. Let's divide this up. Now that we know the end game, is it like three levels? So there's like your beginner level, which is think of it as something you could just easily do in the product. It's got a quick time to value. And everybody in the entire market, all social media folks that want to create graphics are going to like confront this and be like, ah, it's hard to do without this product. And so an example of that, like beginner outcome could be something like, Hey, just design basic graphics for free. So, okay. Can we do that in Canva right now? Yes, absolutely. What are the challenges people will have in that product? in order to get to that outcome. It's like, well, you know, blank page syndrome, you know, writer's block, designer's block. Nobody says designer's block, but it's a thing. And then it's like, well, what could we do? We could give them templates. Okay. Let's make all the templates free too. And they would need to download that too. And like in a bunch of different formats for all the different social media sites and dimensions. Okay. We'll make those all accessible. So what you basically end up with when you go through that whole process is at the end of that, you're like, well, what's the model? Is it freemium? Is it a free trial? It's like, how long is it? Like how many designs they can design for free? Is it like a hundred or something like that? And so you're left with just, that's it. That's what you give away for free. You broke it down. You have like a specific outcome that has tangible value. It's not like go sign up and click through this product and click around a bit and that's free. And you're like, you're kind of left like, now what can I do in this product? So yeah, that's the whole kind of process of how you could like gamify it and make it great. Because like that first level is like what you give away for free. The second level is what you actually charge people based on, which in Canvas case would be like a team use case or get access to like premium images and stuff like that too, to help you design. But that's how a natural kind of journey would go. Anyways, as you move from beginner kind of problems to more intermediate and then advanced ones. I love it. On some level, it almost feels like you're allowing everyone to play on the field. What's the conversion of people that start at freemium and then move under the paid? Do you know like on a basis what that is? Yeah, like on average, it's around three to five percent. Now you can like mix and match these models. That's more advanced and I wouldn't recommend starting off with that. But yeah, typically free trials will convert like even higher than that, like around ten to like twenty percent conversion rate. But it's not as powerful of like a customer acquisition model because there's a lot of people that like free stuff. They're like, oh, freemium. It's like actually one of the more powerful ones to get a lot more signups. It's like a customer acquisition model too. So yeah, there's trade-offs to that too. Like you get a lot more freeloaders, but they could also help share your product with a lot of people too. So it's trade-offs and it's just, which ones are you okay with for your business? Yeah. It's an interesting term, freeloaders, because it can have this negative connotation. But if you just see the word freeloaders, they're loading it for free for you. You know what I mean? They're freeloading it to all their friends and telling people about it. I don't know how that's really measured, but it seems like it should be measured more. That's a pretty big asset to have. People use it for free and then have this sort of advertisement, word of mouth, people sharing it. That's pretty big, right? Oh yeah. And like, it's not a bad thing. Like I'm glad you, you mentioned that too, because there is like, if you think about in the boom days of like live chat tools, every frigging one of them had like powered by drip, powered by intercom, powered by this, powered by that. And that was their free motion where it's like, you would just see these chat bubbles everywhere and you can bet on it that those had a lot of other users being like, oh, what's that? And then they check it out, they learn about it, and then they eventually some of them sign up for it. And so, yes, your free users, you can leverage them in that way, whether it's for reviews, whether it is for getting more customers. And a lot of times, some products that have that external virality factor like an email tool or something that goes on your website that is very visible to other potential users of that a lot of them can benefit from like really great viral world word of mouth where it's like every user brings in like one point two users or one point five users and that creates some really fun growth loops for your business You know, I would imagine on some level there could be some, and this just seems to me that maybe there would be some apathy. Maybe there would be a little bit of like, I don't know if we should drop this for free. What if people start copying our stuff? Once they see how it works, man, they're just going to take it and use it for themselves. Is there ever any of that kind of dialogue going on or behind the scenes? Like maybe we shouldn't give it out for free because people are going to steal it. Yeah. And there, there is that, and I have to, I'll put that with, uh, a lot of founders, like going through that kind of rationale of like, you know, well, here's why that's true, but why we might wanna still do it. And it really comes down to how are you going to win as a business? Now, if you have one thing like, Hey, literally it's just this one feature. That's it. Like, that's the only way we're gonna win as a business. That's what makes us unique. Um, yeah, you, you might be like justified to be like, yeah, I'm kind of worried about that because you know, what took you three, four years to develop might take somebody else having seen how you did it. It might take them like a quarter of the time, if that to kind of replicate the same results. And so, um, that's one of those things where you have to say, okay, like that is true, but. if we look at how do we create a hard to copy business, usually there's like two or three other modes that are really important. So if you say like, we're going to differentiate our product, fantastic. But is there something else? Let's say there's like a distribution mode. You're like early on in the early days with like, let's say the Shopify app store or like the Android or you know, Apple app stores as well. And so you're just focused on like dominating those specific marketplaces and marketplace dynamics, how they work is like, as you get seen, as more people start using it, it's like, you're gonna bubble up and stay at the top. which is really hard to copy. And so you have two now. And so it's like, okay, that's really good. But then maybe a third one you add on there is we're just going to be the easiest to use. And so we're going to obsess about our user experience and make sure that users find, even if people get the same features on other places, they would still want to come to us because it's just way easier. And then your potential competitor that's looking to copy you is like, oh, I think I know it. It's this feature, we got to copy it. But then they don't know there's these two other ones that are making it really, really hard. They're like, but we just can't keep up to them because these other two modes. That's what I cover in my new book, Product Playbook. I found there's these fifteen modes. If you just go through them, it makes it a lot more fun of like, how could we win and stay in that zone where it's not just dependent on our product? It's a great name, the product-led playbook. You're like the Tom Brady or like the, you know what I mean? Like you've got this playbook out here. There's people that are just looking at me like, how does he do all this stuff? That's where you got all the secret sauce on there. Are there, without giving away too much of what you put into the book, like what is the difference between a company that succeeds and one that maybe doesn't? I know you touched on it a second there, but is there a camaraderie? Is there a team? Is there a shared sacrifice? Is there a shared vision that is contagious? Or maybe you, I mean- I don't want to give away too much, but maybe you could speak to that a little bit. Yeah, no, I'm happy to talk more about it. So the one biggest thing, like I call it at the very beginning of the book is if, well, maybe I'll tell more of the story, like how I came across this. That's interesting. But about two years ago, I was just going through like all our customers and trying to decide like, Exactly that question you asked me, like, okay, what separates the ones that see like really great success and the ones that don't? And so at that time we had about three hundred twenty four plus companies. And so I looked at every single one of them. It was like really exhausting, but it's so worth it at the end of the day. And so what we had was eighty percent of all our customers at that time were like senior product executives, product leaders, and then twenty percent were founders. And so then I started looking at, OK, out of each of those groups, which ones generated the best results, had the most self-serve revenue, really made PLG product growth work for their business. And so surprise, surprise, the twenty percent of founders generated eighty percent of the results. I was like, what the hell? Right. What's going on? Like our ideal customer at that time was the senior product executive. So I was like, wow, we're way off. We got to change this up. And so what I started doing is I started interviewing, talking to all these founders and really getting under the weeds of like, well, what are they doing differently? Because clearly they're doing something different. And what actually came out of it was so fascinating. They weren't just doing product-led growth, which sounds like pretty obvious, like, oh, okay, yeah, they're doing something else beyond that. But the product executives, it's not that they weren't smart or anything, they're brilliant people. It's just, they were just doing product-led growth. So when I say that, they're like, they obsessed about their free model, their onboarding. uh their offer and uh really just trying to get people to sign up for it and so that wasn't enough to do it what they really needed and what the founders were doing is they were building a product-led organization that would actually support world-class product growth so what that would look like is they would start looking at their company level strategy and say you know how is you know product growth key or critical to how we're going to win as a company Is it going to help us grow? And they literally just, instead of looking at it as like a product strategy, it was like, that's actually how our company's going to win. Like this company is built for product-led growth. And so that's how we're going to do it. They obsessed about their user. They really got into that, but they also built the right team and capabilities to support it. And so that's one of the things that actually was just right before this talking with the client and, you know, they are making this transition from sales-led to product-led and they're around ten million in recurring revenue. And they're like just realizing it does take a while. It's taken them about a year, just over a year right now where they start to feel like, yeah, we're starting to get the capabilities down. We're starting to actually understand how to do the onboarding well. But it's like patience. I commend them for it because it's not easy. And a lot of people will say, you know, it didn't work, the whole product growth thing. But it's like, one, were you doing it right? Two, did you give enough time to actually build the right capabilities to do it because it does take a while to build that skillset across your team to actually execute at a high level. So those are just like some of the things that right off the bat really matter. But I think that underlying product that organization that supports your product that growth is super underrated. Wow. On some level, it feels like I see a pattern sometimes with the people that I speak to about the state that we're in. And it seems like we went really, really far out into the specialization field. People became so specialized that they forgot about the whole. And when you start talking about the founders having an idea and a team around people that understand the whole mechanics of it, it sounds like on some level we're kind of pulling back and getting a more bird's eye view of, hey, maybe we went wrong over here. Let's bring in John or let's bring in Sharon over here. Maybe they know what's going on. Is that a trend that you kind of see not only in PLG, but in the world itself? Yeah. No, definitely. And I think it all comes down to, remember what I said about the other business we have, which is change management? Because it was one of the other bigger things. It's like, okay, yes, the founder's got to do these things. But in order to get the company level all combined and moving in this direction, it is really very much so about that change management. How do we orchestrate that and actually help facilitate it? And that's why A lot of times, like our product that implement is they will facilitate like the workshops or we'll go through like whether it's your strategy, whether it's understanding who your ideal user is together as a leadership team, because when we're all on the same page is just we can make so much more progress way faster. Is that a big part of some of the things you do? People call you up and you can come in and consult with your team and help people streamline what they got going in or help them out with their ideas or. Yeah. So like we go through like nine core pieces, like your strategy, ideal user, your model, offer, onboarding, pricing, and then there's like three others. But that is where we'll actually like dive in and have like a really kind of structured process to get you on like the basics, like the product assistant and the product playbook is like, that's your foundational elements. You should get those tied in. Uh, but then our implementers, like their past, like whether it's heads of PLG or VPs of growth, and they'll actually be able to help you execute on them too. So that's a bit of like different engagement, but it was like, do you want the structure or do you want the, like us to actually help you do it? I have those two options. Nice. I got a question coming here from Kevin. He says, uh, with SAS, especially PLG companies can scale rapidly, but how does the need for hyper growth intersect with ethical considerations? Yeah. I mean, usually it doesn't impact that. When it comes to the ethical side, it really depends on your business. Like there's grow at all costs. And I think there's like certain potentially ethical things that could go wrong. Like should you, for instance, like really expand your team, like super aggressively, like let's say like triple your head count. And it's like, but your like revenue is not going there. So you do know, like, unless that catches up, you're just going to have to fire everybody. It's like, is that like... ethical or not, it is how many businesses operate. Not to say it's right or wrong, but I think that whole ethical side of things of how do you scale, it really depends. It doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel right. But a lot of times, if you're doing some good in the market, I think back to Even what we do at Product Lead, I'm like, it's actually unethical for me to not share this with more people because it's a new approach and it's going to help so many other businesses. So it's my duty to do this. So I'd actually turn that around and be like, now, would it be unethical if you didn't do the growth part? And if that's a yes, you're in the right zone. Don't worry about it. It's a good point. How do you ensure that the push for growth doesn't lead to exploitation of data, manipulation of user behavior, or contribute to burnout within teams? I think it has to come down to like is why are you doing it? In the first place. And what is the division? Like if it's just to, I don't know, do some sort of like exit, maybe it's like, okay, we're going to like push everybody to like the brim and like, just get this done. Um, I mean, I don't necessarily personally have a big issue with that if that's your, your big end game. But then it's like, I think the best way to avoid it is like, make sure your business actually has like a mission and something you believe in. And I think if people are feeling the burnout and they're like, hey, you know what, this isn't for me and stuff like that, it's usually because they're not aligned with that kind of vision or the way approach you're trying to go about it. And so sometimes that's like a personal thing where you just got to say, hey, you know what, this isn't the place for me. Got to find somewhere else if you don't jive with that. But yeah, and make sure you have that vision as like a founder that, actually connects with the people you do bring onto your team and be like, are you excited about this? Like one of the things. I'm looking for right now as we hire our next position is like, do you actually love product that growth? Do you get excited about this? Because you're going to be talking about this stuff all day and you will feel burnt out if you don't like this. And so really this goes back to like, what is your unique ability? What zones and stuff do you thrive in? But I always come back to like find, um, have you read good to grade like the hedgehog concept? Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I think like that's the best way to avoid burnout. It's like find your three things in the intersection of them. Like, what are you passionate about? What drives your economic engine? Like what people will pay you for? And what can you actually become the best in the world? And just every single year, get closer and closer to honing in in that center. And that's truly how you create that unstoppable zone where you'll thrive, whether it's with that company or the next one. Yeah, that's brilliant advice, man. Thanks for going into there. It seems like a thing. It's really easy to believe in something wholeheartedly and commit to it, but then get to a point where you're like, wait a minute, am I doing the right thing? What's going on here? Is my family suffering? Can you share maybe a moment or have you ever experienced that in your life? And did you just go back to those three premises? Or what have you done when you find yourself kind of second guessing yourself sometimes? Are there any tools or tips you could give to people? oh yeah I was doing this yesterday I think like it comes back to you sometimes we all know like our comfort level comfort zone like what zone do we we thrive in or at least we enjoy being in and not just it's the right one so like the hat I usually wear in my business is the creator hat And, you know, as a creator, I love to create stuff. And that's like the net new stuff is really fun. Now, there's also like messing around with just core functioning stuff. The contrary of that is like, wait, Wes, that's working. Let's not mess that around. And so I think there is that just kind of being conscious of some of those things. And I catch myself all the time, like where I'm like, oh, man. I shouldn't be playing around with that. And I should just focus on some of these other things and deploying that creativity in a different angle or different area that doesn't cause so much chaos. So if you can't prevent that, make sure you at least partner up or have some other people on your team that can go to bat against your ideas. And you don't take it personally because it's really helpful to have that be like, Wes, that's terrible. And you just move on. Yeah, I think it speaks to the idea of relationships and having people around you that you can trust and bounce ideas off and stuff like that. I remember I was talking to Lloyd Lobo a while back and he's like, listen, George, relationships are the new currency. They are the true currency. What's your thoughts on that? Oh, I totally agree. Like, I think there's the one of the books that had like a big influence on me is like the unique ability by Dan Sullivan. And so even just the word itself is kind of fun and provocative, like, oh, everybody has unique ability. And I believe it's true. But the relationship side of things is how do you support that unique ability to thrive. And if you are a whether it's a solo founder or like you're trying to build a team and stuff like that, a lot of times the founder has like that unique ability. And it's basically Mike Michalowicz in the book Clockwork calls it like the queen bee role. like that's the thing that like if you think about queen bees they like lay all the eggs that's what they do the best at and without the queen bee everybody's like they're done so it's like that everything in the hive is set up so that the queen bee can just do that and so same thing in your business there is the queen bee role and all those relationships and that you kind of bring in whether it's contract whether that's some other full-time team members should support that. So when I think about what I do at ProductLed, my queen bee role is literally just writing books because I can turn a book into a business. And I can also create a book that could then be someone's career, like a ProductLed implementer. They implement the book with other clients. And so that's my highest leverage activity that I could ever do. So the team, whether it's having an editor on our team, a marketer that really understands books, how to market the heck out of them. So more people understand that and everything else should support that so that I could spend more of my time doing that. And now I can't do that for the full day, but that's what I'm working towards. What does that process look like for you? Like when you're writing a book, is it literally just the translation of vision into reality? Or is it like, I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna go swim and then I'm gonna sit in the sun. You're like, what is your process for writing look like? Not only physically, but mentally too. Yeah, good question. I am more of, I would say, a grazer when it comes to books. So I'll give you an example. So my fiance, she is, I would say, a lion in that sense. Whenever she's doing her PhD right now, she's going up against the deadline. She'll do two full days, crazy amount of caffeine, and just power through it, done. And then she'll take a week off. Whereas I'm like, I just need like, you know, two, three hours every single day. I'll graze away and ship, ship, ship. And that's my style. So everybody has a different style. There's no right or wrong here, but it's like identify the style of like, how do you contribute best? And for me, it was like from like four AM to like nine. AM where I was like, this is my sweet spot. Nobody can mess around with my calendar and I'm going to find that space. And so I would write in the mornings and then I would actually implement this with clients. And so everything in the, at least the product that playbook was implemented with clients many times before it ever like kind of turned up into the book stuff. And so that was really helpful because I had a feedback loop of like, Hey, there's this theory I came up with of like, based on all the experience of helping all these other companies, but let's test it out, see how it works. And then there's, you know, some things that were not perfect. And then you occasionally meet some Dutch people and they're like, yeah, like, you know, this is good. This is shit. I was like, I appreciate it because, you know, I even give this to a Canadian, they're way too nice. They're like, yeah, Wes, it's amazing. They're like, it's really not fun. Yes. So you try to test it out, flush it out, and then every rewrite, it just gets better and better. And so this book had sixteen rewrites, which is crazy to kind of think about writing the same thing that many times. But I swear, every single time it just got better. And then you eventually get to a point where you're like, All right. I'm not tweaking a lot of things. It's getting nice and tight. And so then it's good enough. It's not perfect. You get it to like ninety five percent. And sure, I want to do like another rewrite. But there's like it's good enough for the next year. And then we'll touch it, play around with it later. You were just over in a conference over there in the Netherlands, weren't you? Yes, I was. Let's talk about that. How was that? What happened there? What was good? What was exciting? What was what was going on there? Yeah, so the event's called Sassiest, and the founders are really great folks, Daniel and Thomas and Sarah. It's always fun when, I think for me, a big part of events is when you know the organizers and the vibe as well is important. It's not super corporate and boring. It's a lively group that actually, they're just trying to help each other out. And so I think that, for me, is a big thing I always look for for conferences. And then speaking for me, I am not like although people say like, OK, Wes, you're a great speaker. You do it a lot and all that stuff, too. But that's not my like my zone, if you will. Like my zone is like where I am right now at four to nine a.m. where I'm writing and uh so there's other like great authors like april dunford and stuff where like she will actually like create the talk and that becomes the book um but I use the talking to actually flush out the like uh usually the first three or four chapters of the book like okay this is like the master class basically because those first three or four chapters It introduces like your sticky point of view, what the book is, how it could help people. And when you do talking, it just really helps you connect and see what resonates and what doesn't way faster than writing. It's interesting to hear the difference between the written word and the spoken word, you know, and I guess it also speaks to the idea of the way people perceive information. When you look at it, which way do you absorb information better, the written word or the spoken word? yeah if I'm trying to just absorb uh it wasn't always this way but I would say like actually reading because I am actually a pretty slow reader like I'll go on my kindle though but I'll have like the highlighter and I hook it up with readwise which is nifty because then it like all goes to like whether it's evernote or notion and I could just like review all the notes later so I love that if I'm trying to learn a specific topic now if I'm just trying to like uh chill and learn or like do something else and not pay too much attention. Like audio books are great, but like retention, not the best. Yeah. When you travel to different places, do you, do you notice different sorts of like there's different dialects wherever you go in language, but is SAS or the technology, does it have its own different dialect? Do you notice like different ways to use it in different or the way people use it in different parts of the world? Or is that relevant? I mean, I think it's pretty standardized. Like if you don't know what SaaS is and you go to SaaS, it's like, what are you doing? They're all called like SaaS stock, SaaS open. It's got the word SaaS in it. So that's the pre-qualifier. But there is some things like metrics and stuff that I think is like very metric heavy. And you're like, what's that LTV? AR pool. You're like, okay, we've got all these fancy ways of saying all these financial metrics. And so I think that part's overwhelming, but it's pretty standardized for the most part. Are there any like, like particular business models on the forefront that you think are ripe for disruption, like real estate or education, or is there anything on your radar that you think is maybe getting ready to be eaten up by this particular technology? Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of different industries where I'm just thinking of like, I think also maybe not even so much on like other SaaS companies and stuff like that too. But I'm also thinking about like with AI agents specifically. Like, oh, they just launched, I think it was today, like this other company where it's like the AI can log into your software now and it can actually do your stuff like repetitive tasks. I was like, wow, now if I do specific things multiple times, like that's great. There's no like SOP now or I gotta train somebody on it. It's like literally just do it and it will probably do it faster and more reliably and quicker and it'll do it exactly when I wanna do it. wow okay so like I think humans will be disrupted a little bit more in the next five to ten years in my mind but then as I was also looking at like I usually do like an afternoon walk and stuff to kind of like break up the day a bit I was looking at like you know some teenager just like on this uh lawnmower and he's going like blazing fast and doing a great job like I just like in like ten years Is it going to be like that? I'm like, probably not. It's probably just literally going to be a robot and the robot is going to do it even faster. And it's like, watch out for that thing. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a lot of jobs we're doing today that just don't necessarily need a human. And so I think that opens up a lot of possibilities where it's like, Hey, it's optional to do, you know, hard labor or some things and stuff like that. But there's a lot more open endedness on what will they do? Will everybody become a creator? I'm like, I don't know, but I think there'll be a lot more creation involved as we kind of like move up Maslow's hierarchy of needs, as far as like, what do we have to do, uh, to stay busy because we can't just all spend, you know, eight, ten hours on TikTok and all these other sites because we all know that's toxic too to a certain degree yeah I love that I heard a quote recently I wrote down and it says it's the ultimate act of faith to believe that we can do what we love and I hope that that becomes the future for more people man that's a wonderful thing to think about right a future where people believe it in themselves like I love this I'm gonna do this like it just seems like I can feel it right now when I say it man like that's a way better world to live in oh totally and it's like any nerdy thing you're into like just don't do it like I think um actually in the book cal newport just wrote slow productivity I there's like three things he talks about which was you know the first thing is like I think it was like focus on quality find like a like a basic pace you can keep for a long term but that emphasis on like quality and do less things and just become like way more obsessive about it I think there's like if you want to be that and do what you love there's like yeah almost have to go to like that not extreme or anything like that, but it's like a little obsessive where it's like, okay, people are like, you're great at that. You should talk more about that and learn that not just be like, I do twenty or thirty different things because I think it'd be hard to stand out in a world that where everybody could do that. You would have to pick and intentionally choose fewer things. They're going to go deep on and and just thrive in those ones. Yeah. You know, it kind of reminds me of like, if you look at Amazon, like there's so many categories for books, like a lot of people can be bestsellers because there's so many categories that there, but it's not the same thing for life. There's probably more in life. Like you could just choose this subset and become the very best world renowned person at it. You know, it's, I'm hopeful that that's the future that it begins to emerge. We kind of touched on this idea of lawnmowers and technology and all these things. Do you have a dog in that fight? Do you think that technology is going to be something that we should accelerate or something that we should slow down? Yeah, I think the one thing is like humans always know how to evolve. It's just, there's a little bit of like the gap of the time it takes. And it's like, I mean, if we, I always remember like talking about this, like maybe even five or ten years ago with like truck drivers and like automated cars and stuff, it's like it's still not here. So it's like, I think what people are worried about is sometimes the pace of some things. And now with like some AI tools, I think the pace is actually increasing quite a bit. But there's going to be this transition where it's like some people still want to hire, let's say, a virtual assistant and they don't want an agent. And so there's still going to be like that transition. But as that's happening, it's like we really do need to lean into developing ourselves and really learning. Like if you're not into that and you just want to stay doing exactly what you're doing and not like leveling up your skills, I think it could be a scary world where you're like, everybody's moving so much faster. And everything around me is changing. But if you're okay and you have more of that growth mindset, we're like, Hey, listen, this is like, I think that belief you mentioned is like, you want to do what you love and thrive in that environment. I think it all comes down to what is your belief? Is technology going to empower you? Or are you going to make it an excuse for why you're stuck doing what you're doing or why the world was hard on you? And it's like, I think there's room for both. And there's going to be always people that say, yes, change was awful. And then there's people that said this changed my life and it was for the better. And so it all comes down to that belief and how you approach it. Man, that's so well said. It's sometimes I feel in my personal experience is that. I got to stop sometimes because I'm running from the very thing that would free me. You know what I mean by that? Like, you're like, ah, it's too much. It's not going to work. Wait, stop. Just face it. Oh, this thing's actually trying to help me. What am I doing? I'm being a crazy lunatic over here. Like, just embrace it. You know, which uncertainty sometimes seems to be a theme that comes up with people I talk to. And it can be scary, this idea of uncertainty. Uncertainty means change. Usually change means growth. But can you talk a little bit about your relationship with uncertainty and how you deal with it? Yeah. I mean, this is coming from a guy who's a creature of habit. Like I always think back to like, you know, the like spy movies and stuff like that would be like, man, I would be so easy to kill. I go to the gym at the same time. I swim at the same time, two times a week. I'm like, man, this would be easy for anybody to do that. So yes, change for me is like, I think there's areas where it changes good. Like I always think back to whenever I felt like whether unstable or like a lot of change and stuff like that, I always break it down. It's like, what are the pillars of my life? so there's like my relationship with my life partner that's really important to be strong there's my work and everything else there and then there's like my health and all these things and so there's more of those pillars but whenever like I can handle living life where one of them is off at any given time it's okay but it's like whenever like one or two or it's like two or three of them gets off and it's like I'm like, what is going on? I really have to do this. And so there's a quote from John D. Rockefeller, which controversial dude, but this one thing was super interesting. He said, he's like, in order to be extraordinary at one thing, you need to be ordinary at a lot of things, everything else basically. And so I kind of took that to heart where it's like, when it comes to those pillars and basically dealing with change, I think we're all set up where it's like, we can handle, uh, even a ton of change in like one specific area. As long as we have our bases locked down in some of these other pillars, we can take those big risks. We can do all that and be extraordinary in that one kind of growth area, but don't kid yourself. Like don't try and be like, oh yeah, all three or five of these like pillars in my life are like all floundering and they're all not stable. So. Try and be a little more ordinary in those other ones, build strong foundations for those pillars. But then go all in on that other one. Like for me, the one where I'm okay with the most variance and stuff is work. I just set up my life where I'm like, I have really awesome partner. I have a really awesome like health stuff and all that stuff locked in. My routine is pretty darn ordinary as you know, but it works. And so then it's like, okay, let's go all in on the work stuff and deal with that change and actually embrace it because it does not feel like my, it's gonna change my life that much if it's just one of those pillars. Man, that's great advice, man. Thank you for sharing that. It's pivotal, too. I think people could really become the very best versions of themselves if they just listen to that advice, read some other books, and have some role models. Did you find that you had role models or mentors in your life? Oh, yeah, like tons of different role models and mentors. But I guess one thing that's different for me, I don't like say like, oh, yeah, it's like this person. This is like my dream. And like there are some people I'm like, I admire aspects of people. Like, it's like some things I just love about them. And I'm like, you know what? They're so, whether it's like they gave so much charity, not that the number matters, but like this is proportionally to their income or something like that. It's like, they're so generous. They're so this, they're so that. And I kind of take those pieces and be like, now, what does West ten point O look like? And I kind of like track that. And so I'm trying to always base it on, you know, there's this ten point O version of me somewhere. And it's like now there's who I am right now, West one point O. And it's like, what's that ten point O? Well, they have all those traits. And so that's what I'm trying to like go towards. However egotistical that sounds. It's awesome. Yes, I found it works for me at least. Yeah, it reminds me of a quote I heard a while back. It was like they were talking to this guy about what do you do when you get in trouble? He goes, well, I try to think of what a smarter version of myself would do, and then I do that. It just blows my mind to think in that aspect. Like, yeah, why don't you think of a smarter version of yourself and then do that? We've got another question coming in that says – Often it's the simplest ideas that have the most profound impacts. What have you learned about the power of simplicity in building SaaS products that resonate with users? Is there a philosophical underpinning to the idea that less is more? Oh, totally. And one of the core values I identified, I like the six that are really important for product companies is just simplicity. And it has to be there because if you think about back to that one comment you had about that question, like, yeah, product companies are actually designed to solve for simplicity, whereas enterprise ones solve more for complexity. Why is that the case? Well, it's like, well, you're trying to standardize something. You're trying to make a really wide audience understand how to do something that maybe they've never done before. And so it has to be easy. And how do you make something easy? There's like, you know, you can make the user experience a bit simpler, but the best thing is just simplicity in general. Like let's make decisions for them. Let's. set them up for success. We'll take some of those first decisions where an example, for instance, with this product called gated.com, it's like when you gate your email, let's say you want to email me, it would ask you like, hey, you haven't messaged Wes before. It's like two bucks, donate doctors to Without Borders or something like that. Pretty interesting products. But then when you think about the signup process of the product and everything else like that, What was fun about it is they just made the decision like it's going to be Doctors Without Borders initially. Now, if you want to change that, you want to support another cause you really care about, great. Like here's like five hundred others and like pick the one that best resonates what you want to support. But we'll just make that simple decision for you. And then we'll you can always tweak it later. And so. Um, that's my, my best kind of take on like simplicity, just really lean into it and really embody it as, uh, what you do, because back to that, uh, the five pillars we were talking about, like of your life too. It's like, okay, understand what those are goal and on, on the one that you want to see the biggest impact on. The human element in SaaS. At its core, SaaS is about solving human problems. How do you balance the power of technology with the deeply human elements of empathy, understanding, and connection? Do you think SaaS, particularly PLG, brings us closer to a world where business feels more human and less transactional? It's interesting because like the sales led path is usually more human led. Right. And so we usually associate that as like more human centric. But what I've seen when it comes to product led companies is utilizing humans in a different capacity where it's like it's not required, but we're going to use them to delight you. And I'll give you a couple of examples to kind of think about that is whenever I signed up for DataBox, like a simple marketing analytics tool where I could like plug in Google Analytics and all my dashboard stuff in one place. Super simple, except I was trying to make this one custom metric and this is in their free trial and I was actually having a little trouble with doing that. So I was about to give up and there's like this exit intent pop up that says, would you like us to set this up for you? I was like, hell yeah. I was just about to give up. So I booked the meeting and then I did it with their amazing technical support specialist. And then I upgraded because it was part of their pro plan to get that custom metric. And so I think there's that benefit of if you use humans in that way where I'm already empowered as a user, I can do most things on my own within it. But then wherever you get stuck or wherever there's going to be an issue, Using humans in that capacity is absolutely fantastic. Like another example I just signed up for the other day is BrightMessage. Like we're trying to get really nerdy on segmentation for our company, since we have a lot of people that are still like the product executive kind of group, and then we want to segment them from the founders. And so we have to segment better, but on the website, you know, it's a great tool. You could go through all that stuff. I'm like, yeah, I know. I know Brendan Dunn, the founder, he's a great guy. but here's the deal. It's like, I'm busy. There's a lot of things going on. Segmentation is like, you know, always somehow at the bottom of the list, yet it's important. And then right above the banner is like, now we can do this for you. And we'll set up your whole segmentation strategy. We'll actually done for you. I was like, Hell yeah, once more. So it's like whatever the biggest challenges are, a lot of times when it comes to getting a product set up and everything else like that, I like to think about it as like there's a pie. Everybody has a different combo in the pie. There's three things in that pie. So there's like, is it a product gap? where it's a problem with the product. Somebody is getting stuck in actually getting set up with the product. Then there's a knowledge gap, which means there's something somebody doesn't know that's actually holding them back from seeing the true value. Then there's the last one, which is a skill gap. And so when you're thinking about that, it's like, well, if you don't have the right skills, like for Photoshop, as an example, it doesn't really matter if you sign up and you can't get the value because you're like, you don't have the skills necessary yet to do that well. And that's really where I'd bring in humans to subset the users in those specific areas, usually where they're lacking a knowledge gap or a skill gap. you can subset that for them and help them see what is possible much faster than like, hey, here's a video of what that looks like. It's like, no, we'll just do it for you or with you and really blow you away with that. So I think that's going to really stand out and make the human experience in a product like company still stand out. We were like, Oh, yeah, they really do care. They really were thoughtful about where I would get stuck. And they helped me where it counted. They didn't help me like for everything handhold me like, you know, overbearing parents, maybe like a sales company, but they just helped me where it mattered. Yeah, I like that. It's a whole shift in attitude and relationships. And I think there's something from the consumer that values the idea that the people that they're working with respect them, not only as like a, as a commodity, but as like a creator. And I think that's kind of what these are doing is like, yeah, look, we're going to help you create this dream that you want. You know, it's, I think it's a beautiful relationship on some level. What, what, what are you most excited about in this particular book that you put out? It seems like every different book you put out, you probably learned something new. What is something new that you learned creating this book? Good question. I think for this one, this not super relevant, but it was how to build a business around a book. Because the book is literally our business. Like this is exactly what we do to help our clients. We didn't hide anything. And it's for a service business, it's really hard to do product-led growth. But I believe like deep down in my bones, I'm like every business can become product-led. It's just sometimes it takes a little while to figure out how do you do that. So especially for like e-commerce and different areas. But for service businesses, what I believe and what we're trying to prove out here too is that we can give away the book. We can really help people understand like, hey, DIY it, do it yourself if you want. But if you want help to actually implement this in your business, that's exactly what we do as a company. That's everybody on our team. It will help you implement that much faster. And so that's really what I learned is, and that's probably why it took a lot longer because it's harder to build a business in a book than it is just write a book on any topic. Yeah, it sounds like a fundamental shift in perspective. You know what I mean? Like if you can see yourself in a third person, you can approach the situation you're thinking about without emotion sometimes. But it sounds to me like writing this book and doing the business allowed you to have a full shift in perspective and then allow people to also enjoy and take part in that shift of perspective on some level. Is that too far out there? No, I think that's definitely bang on. Man, it makes me excited for the future to see the way in which the PLG, what you're doing, the book, and the shift in business is happening. I have another question as we're getting ready to close out, land the plane here, but this is the metaphysics of product-led growth. So if we were to take a more abstract view of PLG, could we say that it mirrors certain metaphysical ideas? For instance, the idea that the product itself holds the key to its own growth could be compared to natural systems in biology or even the self-organizing principles in physics. What are your thoughts on how PLG taps into the broader universal laws of principles? That's an interesting question. First time I've ever been asked that one. Trying to think. I mean, at the very most meta level, it's like there's give and take, right? Right. So it's like, does it embody that? Yes. Like when you give certain things, then there's like, I don't know, like a tree will produce and give away seeds. Yeah, exactly. And looking out my window and stuff like that. Like it's false. I'm here. I think there is that natural, you give things and then you plant seeds. And those seeds are like great experiences. And if you plant them in the right soil, they give them everything they need, like the knowledge gap, the skill gap, all that stuff, the right soil, it will grow. So I think that is definitely a natural thing. There's my degree in metaphysics. I love it. It's so relevant. I think you're planting seeds in the fertile minds of people and then they get to grow their own sort of fruit and they get to produce their own food. It's like you're giving them this garden and they get to go out there and they become gardeners in their own mind. And it's wonderful, man. It's going out and creating ideas and helping people. Well, I know we're kind of coming up on the hour right here, Wes, but before I let you go, man, where can people find you? What are you excited about? And what do you got coming up? Yeah. So, I mean, first off, yeah, you can find me on like LinkedIn, just Wes Bush. But I also got a gift for every one of your listeners too. What? Yeah. I know because I'm the product led guy. I got to give something to your audience. I love it. so if you found like anything we talked about on the product led playbook side of things interesting I want to give you the like entire audiobook for free and so nothing holding back and if you just go to productledgift.com just type in hey which podcast did you hear this from and I'll give you the book for free that's it no strings attached and so yeah that's kind of my my gift to everybody man thank you so much for that and I know all my listeners go down to the show so I'll make sure it's in the show let's go down there click on it put in my true life podcast but take some of these seeds that wes has given to people plant your own garden produce your own fruit and then when your fruit bears seeds plant those to other people man I I'm really thankful is there any other any other so is the book available on audible amazon anywhere else for people that don't get it for free Yeah, it's available all those places too. Fingers crossed. Hopefully it shows up in your marketplace. Yeah. It's on Amazon for that ends for, yeah, Kindle, paperback, hardcover, and then Audible just launched today. So yes, it's there too. Well, congratulations on all of it. And I really am thankful for the conversation. I feel like I got to learn a lot. I feel like the audience got to learn. There's lots of resources in there. And hang on briefly afterwards. I just want to talk to you for one more moment. But to everybody within the sound of my voice, whether you're listening live today or you're listening tomorrow or five years from now, thank you so much. I hope you have the faith to believe in yourself and do what you love. That's all we got, ladies and gentlemen. Aloha.